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ALPB => Your Turn => Topic started by: Eileen Smith on November 07, 2017, 08:09:17 AM

Title: November 26: Christ the King? Last Sunday? Advent?
Post by: Eileen Smith on November 07, 2017, 08:09:17 AM
Knowing how much everyone on this Forum loves polls, a new poll.  Several congregations have announced that they are moving the Advent I to November 26 allowing Advent to come to a close on December 17th.  (The start of the O Antiphons  :-\) )   There will be no morning service on December 24th with Christmas Eve services that night. 

A friend asked if I'd ever seen this done.  I haven't.  Have you?  What are you doing? 

Title: Re: November 26: Christ the King? Last Sunday? Advent?
Post by: Harvey_Mozolak on November 07, 2017, 08:24:34 AM
Intriguing...  I have no parish in which to experiment anymore... but a thought...  as you probably know, there were suggestions of moving advent back to somewhere in the beginning of November and making this long season of Christmas observed in a pre-sense all through December culminating in the 24th or if you want to hang onto some thread of the past-- the 25th.  And then dropping it like pine needles thereabouts.  But that did not catch on anymore that establishing a standing date for Easter and the Lenten Season.  But some do move the date of Holy Cross, St Michael and All Angels, Reformation, All SS and Epiphany to a nearest Sunday and call them All Saints Sunday and the like.  Hmmm.
Title: Re: November 26: Christ the King? Last Sunday? Advent?
Post by: Charles Austin on November 07, 2017, 09:53:25 AM
I appreciate the apocalyptic (in a good sense) rumblings in the end of the Church year and Christ's reign at the end.
Title: Re: November 26: Christ the King? Last Sunday? Advent?
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on November 07, 2017, 11:12:07 AM
Last Sunday of Church Year A and Christ the King A.


As I recall in my 41 years of ministry, when Sunday (evening) was Christmas Eve, the morning service was 4 Advent. The evening was Christmas Eve. In Hebrew thinking, the new day begins at sundown.
Title: Re: November 26: Christ the King? Last Sunday? Advent?
Post by: revjagow on November 07, 2017, 11:19:47 AM
I appreciate the apocalyptic (in a good sense) rumblings in the end of the Church year and Christ's reign at the end.

I'll second that. Sometimes on "Christ the King" we have a hymn sing where people select hymns from each church season. I've found this a good way to teach the cycle of the church year too.
Title: Re: November 26: Christ the King? Last Sunday? Advent?
Post by: Weedon on November 07, 2017, 11:56:25 AM
It also introduces the question of the readings for December 24th. I could have sworn that I remembered reading somewhere that when this situation occurs that the Fourth Sunday of Advent falls on December 24, then in the morning service the readings used are the Eve of the Nativity (Vigil of the Nativity) readings (Is 7:10Ė14; 1 John 4:7Ė16; Matt 1:18-25). But I canít for the life of me remember where I read this instruction. Our materials give the fourth Sunday readings as normal, but it still niggles me that this isnít exactly right.
Title: Re: November 26: Christ the King? Last Sunday? Advent?
Post by: Keith Falk on November 07, 2017, 11:58:15 AM
It also introduces the question of the readings for December 24th. I could have sworn that I remembered reading somewhere that when this situation occurs that the Fourth Sunday of Advent falls on December 24, then in the morning service the readings used are the Eve of the Nativity (Vigil of the Nativity) readings (Is 7:10Ė14; 1 John 4:7Ė16; Matt 1:18-25). But I canít for the life of me remember where I read this instruction. Our materials give the fourth Sunday readings as normal, but it still niggles me that this isnít exactly right.


If you happen to find the source, let us know please!
Title: Re: November 26: Christ the King? Last Sunday? Advent?
Post by: Eileen Smith on November 07, 2017, 12:23:05 PM
It also introduces the question of the readings for December 24th. I could have sworn that I remembered reading somewhere that when this situation occurs that the Fourth Sunday of Advent falls on December 24, then in the morning service the readings used are the Eve of the Nativity (Vigil of the Nativity) readings (Is 7:10Ė14; 1 John 4:7Ė16; Matt 1:18-25). But I canít for the life of me remember where I read this instruction. Our materials give the fourth Sunday readings as normal, but it still niggles me that this isnít exactly right.

That would be interesting to know (if you have the source).  The Vanderbilt site does allow the Isaiah/1 John/Matthew readings.  My question is more to when Advent starts in a year such as this, with Christmas on a Monday.  On what is normally the church year, giving four full weeks prior to Christmas Eve, or the Sunday closest to St. Andrew, allowing that Christmas Eve falls on a Sunday.  As such, Christmas Eve would have only evening services - nothing in the morning.   No criticism comes with this question - but simply curiosity.   
Title: Re: November 26: Christ the King? Last Sunday? Advent?
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on November 07, 2017, 12:31:54 PM
It also introduces the question of the readings for December 24th. I could have sworn that I remembered reading somewhere that when this situation occurs that the Fourth Sunday of Advent falls on December 24, then in the morning service the readings used are the Eve of the Nativity (Vigil of the Nativity) readings (Is 7:10Ė14; 1 John 4:7Ė16; Matt 1:18-25). But I canít for the life of me remember where I read this instruction. Our materials give the fourth Sunday readings as normal, but it still niggles me that this isnít exactly right.

That would be interesting to know (if you have the source).  The Vanderbilt site does allow the Isaiah/1 John/Matthew readings.  My question is more to when Advent starts in a year such as this, with Christmas on a Monday.  On what is normally the church year, giving four full weeks prior to Christmas Eve, or the Sunday closest to St. Andrew, allowing that Christmas Eve falls on a Sunday.  As such, Christmas Eve would have only evening services - nothing in the morning.   No criticism comes with this question - but simply curiosity.


The word "eve," like the word "evening," originally referred to the "night before," i.e., after sunset. Thus, "Christmas Eve" could be understood as referring only to the evening before Christmas. However, the definition has been expanded to include the whole day before.
Title: Re: November 26: Christ the King? Last Sunday? Advent?
Post by: jebutler on November 07, 2017, 02:14:02 PM
Knowing how much everyone on this Forum loves polls, a new poll.  Several congregations have announced that they are moving the Advent I to November 26 allowing Advent to come to a close on December 17th.  (The start of the O Antiphons  :-\) )   There will be no morning service on December 24th with Christmas Eve services that night. 

A friend asked if I'd ever seen this done.  I haven't.  Have you?  What are you doing?

November 26 is Christ the King/Last Sunday of the Church Year

December 24 is the 4th Sunday in Advent.

That evening is Christmas Eve.

I've never heard of a congregation 'moving' the Sunday in Advent.

Title: Re: November 26: Christ the King? Last Sunday? Advent?
Post by: Weedon on November 07, 2017, 02:20:35 PM
The first Sunday in Advent is always the Sunday nearest St. Andrewís day. 
Title: Re: November 26: Christ the King? Last Sunday? Advent?
Post by: Harvey_Mozolak on November 07, 2017, 02:22:02 PM
Yes, I have always been a liturgical freak and to an nth degree and would probably never move Advent 4.... and always observed Christmas Day... shucks my mother church the SELC (Slovaks for you younger ones) always observed Second and Third Day of Christmas on the 26 and 27th.... maybe only Will knows those from vicarage but they may have e been gone by then... BUT the last writer said: "I've never heard of a congregation 'moving' the Sunday in Advent."  BUT we have all experienced the congregation that has moved away from Advent Four, right?!  We can't properly observe Christmas these days so how can we possibly observe Advent properly in many places and parishes....??
Title: Re: November 26: Christ the King? Last Sunday? Advent?
Post by: Mike in Pennsylvania on November 07, 2017, 02:36:09 PM
We are observing Advent 4 in the morning but only having one service instead of the usual three.
Otherwise we'd be having 7 services in the span of 28 hours (3 in the am, 3 in the pm, 1 Christmas morning).  That's a little much.
Title: Re: November 26: Christ the King? Last Sunday? Advent?
Post by: LCMS87 on November 07, 2017, 02:40:10 PM
Yes, I have always been a liturgical freak and to an nth degree and would probably never move Advent 4.... and always observed Christmas Day... shucks my mother church the SELC (Slovaks for you younger ones) always observed Second and Third Day of Christmas on the 26 and 27th.... maybe only Will knows those from vicarage but they may have e been gone by then... BUT the last writer said: "I've never heard of a congregation 'moving' the Sunday in Advent."  BUT we have all experienced the congregation that has moved away from Advent Four, right?!  We can't properly observe Christmas these days so how can we possibly observe Advent properly in many places and parishes....??

Never.  There may be misguided members of the congregation who only come to worship in the evening when the Fourth Sunday in Advent is on the 24th, but the Sunday morning service uses the propers for the Fourth Sunday in Advent.  (Of course if the book with full rubrics for LSB ever comes out and provides for a different practice, I will walk together on the road my brothers tread, but Advent One is not movable.  It's tied to St. Andrew's Day.  And the celebration of Christmas begins after sunset on the 24th.)   

Of course, I don't approve of celebrating Independence Day with fireworks on the 3rd or 5th either, or moving trick-or-treating to some day other than 31 October.  And the Armistice that ended the World War is marked on the eleventh hour of the eleventh day of the eleventh month.  I have no problem with Veterans Day on the second Monday in November, but that's not Armistice Day. [/curmudgeonly rant off.]
Title: Re: November 26: Christ the King? Last Sunday? Advent?
Post by: JEdwards on November 07, 2017, 02:44:04 PM
Several years ago, I happened to be at a Catholic mass on Sunday, December 17th.  In reminding his parishioners of their obligations for the following weekend (essentially, to attend worship for  BOTH Advent 4 and Christmas Eve or Day), the priest stressed the distinctive message and celebration for each event, using the example of someone with a birthday on the 24th or 25th.  The gist of it was that, as special as Christmas is, most people would find some way to honor the birthday in a distinct way.

Peace,
Jon
Title: Re: November 26: Christ the King? Last Sunday? Advent?
Post by: Harvey_Mozolak on November 07, 2017, 02:44:10 PM
talk about several services in one 24 hour period....  I recall once hearing the RC canon law or some such source spoke of the fact that one should not or couldn't or something like that... commune more than once a day (maybe it was 24 hours).... anyone know of that teaching?  Of course, anyone celebrating the Eucharist among them (and among us) might well do that when there are more Masses in one day...  I know I always commune at each celebration no matter how many there might be in a day... two in a row on Sunday morning, Saturday evening and Sunday morning, Sunday morning and some afternoon or even Communion on a Sunday ...  although my custom was if I was celebrating with several Shutins during a single day or afternoon, I only usually communed once with the first... not sure why except there were times when I could commune 3-5 in a single day.  Thoughts, pastoral advice which hopefully we will not dissolve into arguments... 
Title: Re: November 26: Christ the King? Last Sunday? Advent?
Post by: Harvey_Mozolak on November 07, 2017, 02:45:07 PM
Jon, wonderful example. 
Title: Re: November 26: Christ the King? Last Sunday? Advent?
Post by: James_Gale on November 07, 2017, 02:50:11 PM
talk about several services in one 24 hour period....  I recall once hearing the RC canon law or some such source spoke of the fact that one should not or couldn't or something like that... commune more than once a day (maybe it was 24 hours).... anyone know of that teaching?  Of course, anyone celebrating the Eucharist among them (and among us) might well do that when there are more Masses in one day...  I know I always commune at each celebration no matter how many there might be in a day... two in a row on Sunday morning, Saturday evening and Sunday morning, Sunday morning and some afternoon or even Communion on a Sunday ...  although my custom was if I was celebrating with several Shutins during a single day or afternoon, I only usually communed once with the first... not sure why except there were times when I could commune 3-5 in a single day.  Thoughts, pastoral advice which hopefully we will not dissolve into arguments...


In general, RC canon law provides that a priest may not celebrate the eucharist more that once a day.  However, Canon 905 creates exceptions:

ß2 (http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/F.HTM). If there is a  shortage of priests (http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/8R.HTM), the local (http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/39.HTM) ordinary (http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/1E.HTM) can allow (http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/1/MB.HTM) priests (http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/8R.HTM) to celebrate (http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/FD.HTM) twice (http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/1/XM.HTM) a day (http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/74.HTM) for a just (http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/4D.HTM) cause (http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/3U.HTM), or if pastoral (http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/4A.HTM) necessity (http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/B1.HTM) requires (http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/BR.HTM) it, even three (http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/AR.HTM) times (http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/FX.HTM) on Sundays (http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/1/GR.HTM) and holy (http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/3I.HTM)days (http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/69.HTM) of obligation (http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/5K.HTM).
Title: Re: November 26: Christ the King? Last Sunday? Advent?
Post by: Donald_Kirchner on November 07, 2017, 03:05:22 PM
I see no need to move things around. That said, we have used the 4th Sunday in Advent as an adapted Service of Lessons and Carols for Advent.

And as much as I miss a Christmas Day service, our council desires a Christmas Eve only service, so that folks can travel to relatives, etc. the next day.  ::)  So, my wife and I use the opportunity to attend the Christmas Day service elsewhere and, that afternoon, start a fire in the fireplace and kick back and listen to Praetorius' "Mass for Christmas Morning," dreaming about how wonderful it would be to participate in such a service.

http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/album.jsp?album_id=3879

Then, that evening after a prime rib dinner, we again kick back and watch that Christmas classic movie, "Die Hard."
Title: Re: November 26: Christ the King? Last Sunday? Advent?
Post by: Jeremy Loesch on November 07, 2017, 03:15:19 PM
Knowing how much everyone on this Forum loves polls, a new poll.  Several congregations have announced that they are moving the Advent I to November 26 allowing Advent to come to a close on December 17th.  (The start of the O Antiphons  :-\) )   There will be no morning service on December 24th with Christmas Eve services that night. 

A friend asked if I'd ever seen this done.  I haven't.  Have you?  What are you doing?

November 26 is Christ the King/Last Sunday of the Church Year

December 24 is the 4th Sunday in Advent.

That evening is Christmas Eve.

I've never heard of a congregation 'moving' the Sunday in Advent.

Amen Jim!  Where do they get the authority to do such a thing?  Crazy.

Jeremy
Title: Re: November 26: Christ the King? Last Sunday? Advent?
Post by: MaddogLutheran on November 07, 2017, 03:27:19 PM
I see no need to move things around. That said, we have used the 4th Sunday in Advent as an adapted Service of Lessons and Carols for Advent.

And as much as I miss a Christmas Day service, our council desires a Christmas Eve only service, so that folks can travel to relatives, etc. the next day.  ::)  So, my wife and I use the opportunity to attend the Christmas Day service elsewhere and, that afternoon, start a fire in the fireplace and kick back and listen to Praetorius' "Mass for Christmas Morning," dreaming about how wonderful it would be to participate in such a service.

http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/album.jsp?album_id=3879

Then, that evening after a prime rib dinner, we again kick back and watch that Christmas classic movie, "Die Hard."
1.  For whatever historical reason, our congregation also does not have a Christmas Day service (unless that day is a Sunday).  (Neither did the home church of my youth.)  I don't know whether our pastors have any strong feelings about that, but I'm sure the laity concerns you mention are the primary reason--and I share them.  We have 4 services on the Eve evening...and so will have 7 in total this 24th.  Even if we had one regularly on the 25th, all our communal energy would still be expended the night before.  Similar reason we don't have an Easter Vigil service.

2.  Do you really mean to start the flame war here about whether Die Hard is a Christmas movie?  ;) (My take:  agree!)

Sterling Spatz
Title: Re: November 26: Christ the King? Last Sunday? Advent?
Post by: Eileen Smith on November 07, 2017, 03:38:08 PM
Knowing how much everyone on this Forum loves polls, a new poll.  Several congregations have announced that they are moving the Advent I to November 26 allowing Advent to come to a close on December 17th.  (The start of the O Antiphons  :-\) )   There will be no morning service on December 24th with Christmas Eve services that night. 

A friend asked if I'd ever seen this done.  I haven't.  Have you?  What are you doing?

November 26 is Christ the King/Last Sunday of the Church Year

December 24 is the 4th Sunday in Advent.

That evening is Christmas Eve.

I've never heard of a congregation 'moving' the Sunday in Advent.

Amen Jim!  Where do they get the authority to do such a thing?  Crazy.

Jeremy

This comes from a pastor who found out from colleagues that some were moving Advent, dispensing with the morning Advent 4 service, celebrating Christmas Eve in the evening of the 24th.   I'm not certain where authority would come from - the bishop of the synod, the president of the district?   My experience has been that this 'authority' isn't welcome in the local parish.
Title: Re: November 26: Christ the King? Last Sunday? Advent?
Post by: Richard Johnson on November 07, 2017, 04:01:56 PM
There's been a lot of chatter about this on the ELCA Clergy Facebook page. The primary underlying reason for considering such a move is "so I don't have to do so much work since there won't be that many people there anyway (on Dec. 24 morning)."

We always did the full four services on December 24 when it was a Sunday. It's only once every six years or so, and I don't recall a noticeable decline at either morning or evening services. And, of course, it is meet, right and salutary so to do.

We also, the last several years of my ministry, had confirmation on Christ the King. It worked very well. Extended family often already there if it was Thanksgiving weekend. The theme connects well with confirmation ("you are choosing today to follow a very different King" etc.). Left other traditional choices like Reformation Day or Palm Sunday or Pentecost to be their own thing. Disassociated confirmation from graduations.
Title: Re: November 26: Christ the King? Last Sunday? Advent?
Post by: Harvey_Mozolak on November 07, 2017, 04:05:31 PM
James Gale, thank you for the reference which I may have been recalling but is there any such canon or practice that a communicant should not commune more than once during a day.... I have had Lutherans say that, "Oh I have been to communion already toda, this morning, not going during the Reformation service now this afternoon..."?

Which of course, does not speak to the gifts of communion apart from forgiveness and to the latter the fact that even a few hours may have resulted in a few assorted sins... duh....
Title: Re: November 26: Christ the King? Last Sunday? Advent?
Post by: MaddogLutheran on November 07, 2017, 04:10:35 PM
We also, the last several years of my ministry, had confirmation on Christ the King. It worked very well. Extended family often already there if it was Thanksgiving weekend. The theme connects well with confirmation ("you are choosing today to follow a very different King" etc.). Left other traditional choices like Reformation Day or Palm Sunday or Pentecost to be their own thing. Disassociated confirmation from graduations.
My congregation's Christian ed leadership just decided to move confirmation to the fall next year as well, for several reasons but the biggest being as you say:  separation from graduation.  It will be the second Sunday of October, not Christ the King.  While we nominally targeted Pentecost, we did move it around depending on the calendar that year, i.e. never on Memorial Day weekend, and sometimes even after Trinity Sunday if Easter was early.

Our goal is to use the early fall to try and integregate the kids (and their parents) into a routine that they might continue with after the "big day".  We have a viable senior high youth group--historically retaining about 20-25% of confirmands on a regular basis.  So the hope is that being with these older kids modeling behavior before conformation will give them a sense of belonging.

Sterling Spatz
Title: Re: November 26: Christ the King? Last Sunday? Advent?
Post by: Weedon on November 07, 2017, 04:17:29 PM
Ah, it was not my imagination. In the 1960 Rubrics of the Roman Mass, under vigils (which are defined as the liturgical day prior to a feast), the Vigil of the Nativity replaces the 4th Sunday in Advent (see par. 31). Now whether this practice predated 1960, Iím not sure. More to research. Now, where did I read it in a Lutheran source??? Wonder if it were in the Altar Guild Manual (Maxwell or Lang).
Title: Re: November 26: Christ the King? Last Sunday? Advent?
Post by: Dan Fienen on November 07, 2017, 04:19:54 PM
I used to serve a parish that was connected to a parochial school.  I always scheduled confirmation for Memorial Day Weekend.  That would end up being the weekend after grade school graduation, usually on Friday.  That way grandparents, aunts and uncles who had come for the graduation could also attend confirmation.  Also, being a long weekend made travelling back after confirmation Sunday easier.
Title: Re: November 26: Christ the King? Last Sunday? Advent?
Post by: JEdwards on November 07, 2017, 04:20:48 PM
James Gale, thank you for the reference which I may have been recalling but is there any such canon or practice that a communicant should not commune more than once during a day.... I have had Lutherans say that, "Oh I have been to communion already toda, this morning, not going during the Reformation service now this afternoon..."?

Which of course, does not speak to the gifts of communion apart from forgiveness and to the latter the fact that even a few hours may have resulted in a few assorted sins... duh....

The RC rules are quite arcane.  My understanding is that a layperson can commune a second time, provided it is in the context of a mass.  So, for example, one could receive communion at 2 separate masses, or receive first outside the context of mass (e.g., in a hospital room with a relative who is ill), followed by reception at mass later in the day.  The reverse sequence would not be permissible.  And, absent danger of death, receiving 3 times in a day is "right out".

Peace,
Jon
Title: Re: November 26: Christ the King? Last Sunday? Advent?
Post by: aletheist on November 07, 2017, 04:21:27 PM
Our goal is to use the early fall to try and integregate the kids (and their parents) into a routine that they might continue with after the "big day".
The congregation where I am a member has been doing this for the last few years, as well.  After more traditional instruction in seventh and eighth grade, the students begin ninth grade with a "Fall of Formation," and then Confirmation takes place on Reformation Sunday.
Title: Re: November 26: Christ the King? Last Sunday? Advent?
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on November 07, 2017, 05:24:26 PM
I see no need to move things around. That said, we have used the 4th Sunday in Advent as an adapted Service of Lessons and Carols for Advent.

And as much as I miss a Christmas Day service, our council desires a Christmas Eve only service, so that folks can travel to relatives, etc. the next day.  ::)  So, my wife and I use the opportunity to attend the Christmas Day service elsewhere and, that afternoon, start a fire in the fireplace and kick back and listen to Praetorius' "Mass for Christmas Morning," dreaming about how wonderful it would be to participate in such a service.

http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/album.jsp?album_id=3879 (http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/album.jsp?album_id=3879)

Then, that evening after a prime rib dinner, we again kick back and watch that Christmas classic movie, "Die Hard."


Should a Christmas Day service be a council decision?
Title: Re: November 26: Christ the King? Last Sunday? Advent?
Post by: Eileen Smith on November 07, 2017, 05:27:18 PM
James Gale, thank you for the reference which I may have been recalling but is there any such canon or practice that a communicant should not commune more than once during a day.... I have had Lutherans say that, "Oh I have been to communion already toda, this morning, not going during the Reformation service now this afternoon..."?

Which of course, does not speak to the gifts of communion apart from forgiveness and to the latter the fact that even a few hours may have resulted in a few assorted sins... duh....

The RC rules are quite arcane.  My understanding is that a layperson can commune a second time, provided it is in the context of a mass.  So, for example, one could receive communion at 2 separate masses, or receive first outside the context of mass (e.g., in a hospital room with a relative who is ill), followed by reception at mass later in the day.  The reverse sequence would not be permissible.  And, absent danger of death, receiving 3 times in a day is "right out".

Peace,
Jon

This seems to bear that out:  https://www.ewtn.com/expert/answers/communion_times.htm (https://www.ewtn.com/expert/answers/communion_times.htm)
Title: Re: November 26: Christ the King? Last Sunday? Advent?
Post by: Harvey_Mozolak on November 07, 2017, 05:35:05 PM
thanks Eileen and one has to remember that some of my memory as a pastor does predate 1983, so I must be recalling the earlier prohibition.  Thanks.  Sometimes I have too long  memory.
Title: Re: November 26: Christ the King? Last Sunday? Advent?
Post by: Donald_Kirchner on November 07, 2017, 05:58:26 PM
I see no need to move things around. That said, we have used the 4th Sunday in Advent as an adapted Service of Lessons and Carols for Advent.

And as much as I miss a Christmas Day service, our council desires a Christmas Eve only service, so that folks can travel to relatives, etc. the next day.  ::)  So, my wife and I use the opportunity to attend the Christmas Day service elsewhere and, that afternoon, start a fire in the fireplace and kick back and listen to Praetorius' "Mass for Christmas Morning," dreaming about how wonderful it would be to participate in such a service.

http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/album.jsp?album_id=3879 (http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/album.jsp?album_id=3879)

Then, that evening after a prime rib dinner, we again kick back and watch that Christmas classic movie, "Die Hard."

Should a Christmas Day service be a council decision?

Yes. Particularly since they've already had a Christmas "Day" service on Christmas Eve I'm not going to raise a major objection.
Title: Re: November 26: Christ the King? Last Sunday? Advent?
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on November 08, 2017, 12:05:27 AM
I see no need to move things around. That said, we have used the 4th Sunday in Advent as an adapted Service of Lessons and Carols for Advent.

And as much as I miss a Christmas Day service, our council desires a Christmas Eve only service, so that folks can travel to relatives, etc. the next day.  ::)  So, my wife and I use the opportunity to attend the Christmas Day service elsewhere and, that afternoon, start a fire in the fireplace and kick back and listen to Praetorius' "Mass for Christmas Morning," dreaming about how wonderful it would be to participate in such a service.

http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/album.jsp?album_id=3879 (http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/album.jsp?album_id=3879)

Then, that evening after a prime rib dinner, we again kick back and watch that Christmas classic movie, "Die Hard."

Should a Christmas Day service be a council decision?

Yes. Particularly since they've already had a Christmas "Day" service on Christmas Eve I'm not going to raise a major objection.


When I came to this Call, I announced to the council (and congregation) that there would be a Christmas Day service in addition to the Christmas Eve services. If necessary, I would do the setup and cleanup. (I've never had to do that.) I take care of the music (which I also do on Christmas Eve.) It also gives another opportunity to sing the Christmas hymns that I mostly avoid throughout the Advent Season.
Title: Re: November 26: Christ the King? Last Sunday? Advent?
Post by: Donald_Kirchner on November 08, 2017, 07:50:35 AM
I see no need to move things around. That said, we have used the 4th Sunday in Advent as an adapted Service of Lessons and Carols for Advent.

And as much as I miss a Christmas Day service, our council desires a Christmas Eve only service, so that folks can travel to relatives, etc. the next day.  ::)  So, my wife and I use the opportunity to attend the Christmas Day service elsewhere and, that afternoon, start a fire in the fireplace and kick back and listen to Praetorius' "Mass for Christmas Morning," dreaming about how wonderful it would be to participate in such a service.

http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/album.jsp?album_id=3879 (http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/album.jsp?album_id=3879)

Then, that evening after a prime rib dinner, we again kick back and watch that Christmas classic movie, "Die Hard."

Should a Christmas Day service be a council decision?

Yes. Particularly since they've already had a Christmas "Day" service on Christmas Eve I'm not going to raise a major objection.


When I came to this Call, I announced to the council (and congregation) that there would be a Christmas Day service in addition to the Christmas Eve services. If necessary, I would do the setup and cleanup. (I've never had to do that.) I take care of the music (which I also do on Christmas Eve.) It also gives another opportunity to sing the Christmas hymns that I mostly avoid throughout the Advent Season.

That's wonderful, Brian! I did the same thing with the Easter Vigil. I suggested it, explained it, and a few were interested. We tried it, word spread, and the attendance has increased every year, with others travelling from nearly 50 miles away for the Vigil. This is even though we have a 7 am Easter Sunrise service less than 12 hours later. And the Lord's Supper at both.  ;)
Title: Re: November 26: Christ the King? Last Sunday? Advent?
Post by: John_Hannah on November 08, 2017, 08:26:53 AM
From the poll it appears that no one here takes the authority to shift the Church Year by moving Advent One.     >:( ;D

Peace, JOHN
Title: Re: November 26: Christ the King? Last Sunday? Advent?
Post by: Steven Tibbetts on November 08, 2017, 09:16:09 AM
Ah, it was not my imagination. In the 1960 Rubrics of the Roman Mass, under vigils (which are defined as the liturgical day prior to a feast), the Vigil of the Nativity replaces the 4th Sunday in Advent (see par. 31). Now whether this practice predated 1960, Iím not sure. More to research.

Isn't the Easter Vigil Saturday morning in those rubrics?

spt+
Title: Re: November 26: Christ the King? Last Sunday? Advent?
Post by: John_Hannah on November 08, 2017, 09:18:50 AM
Ah, it was not my imagination. In the 1960 Rubrics of the Roman Mass, under vigils (which are defined as the liturgical day prior to a feast), the Vigil of the Nativity replaces the 4th Sunday in Advent (see par. 31). Now whether this practice predated 1960, Iím not sure. More to research.

Isn't the Easter Vigil Saturday morning in those rubrics?

spt+

I think it would be (prior to 1951) although it might not have been titled a "Vigil."

Peace, JOHN
Title: Re: November 26: Christ the King? Last Sunday? Advent?
Post by: peterm on November 08, 2017, 10:24:58 AM
I see no need to move things around. That said, we have used the 4th Sunday in Advent as an adapted Service of Lessons and Carols for Advent.

And as much as I miss a Christmas Day service, our council desires a Christmas Eve only service, so that folks can travel to relatives, etc. the next day.  ::)  So, my wife and I use the opportunity to attend the Christmas Day service elsewhere and, that afternoon, start a fire in the fireplace and kick back and listen to Praetorius' "Mass for Christmas Morning," dreaming about how wonderful it would be to participate in such a service.

http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/album.jsp?album_id=3879

Then, that evening after a prime rib dinner, we again kick back and watch that Christmas classic movie, "Die Hard."

Sounds good to me.  At my parents for the last few years we have watched the other holiday classic "Planes, Trains, and Automobiles." :)
Title: Re: November 26: Christ the King? Last Sunday? Advent?
Post by: gan ainm on November 08, 2017, 10:39:01 AM
A Christmas Story (1983) is classic.  However, I guess leg lamps and BB guns are currently too much of a threat to our intolerant culture.   ;)
Title: Re: November 26: Christ the King? Last Sunday? Advent?
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on November 08, 2017, 11:16:19 AM
I see no need to move things around. That said, we have used the 4th Sunday in Advent as an adapted Service of Lessons and Carols for Advent.

And as much as I miss a Christmas Day service, our council desires a Christmas Eve only service, so that folks can travel to relatives, etc. the next day.  ::)  So, my wife and I use the opportunity to attend the Christmas Day service elsewhere and, that afternoon, start a fire in the fireplace and kick back and listen to Praetorius' "Mass for Christmas Morning," dreaming about how wonderful it would be to participate in such a service.

http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/album.jsp?album_id=3879 (http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/album.jsp?album_id=3879)

Then, that evening after a prime rib dinner, we again kick back and watch that Christmas classic movie, "Die Hard."

Should a Christmas Day service be a council decision?

Yes. Particularly since they've already had a Christmas "Day" service on Christmas Eve I'm not going to raise a major objection.


When I came to this Call, I announced to the council (and congregation) that there would be a Christmas Day service in addition to the Christmas Eve services. If necessary, I would do the setup and cleanup. (I've never had to do that.) I take care of the music (which I also do on Christmas Eve.) It also gives another opportunity to sing the Christmas hymns that I mostly avoid throughout the Advent Season.

That's wonderful, Brian! I did the same thing with the Easter Vigil. I suggested it, explained it, and a few were interested. We tried it, word spread, and the attendance has increased every year, with others travelling from nearly 50 miles away for the Vigil. This is even though we have a 7 am Easter Sunrise service less than 12 hours later. And the Lord's Supper at both.  ;)


I did the same with an Easter Vigil - which meant leading services (and playing music) on Maundy Thursday, Good Friday, Holy Saturday, and Easter morning - and some years I extended the Wednesday Lenten services to include Wednesday in Holy Week. Unfortunately, I never had more than a dozen people for the Vigil - and the numbers kept decreasing. With an aging congregation, many people do not like going out at night - and the vigil works best when it is dark out. I also decided to discontinue that service.
Title: Re: November 26: Christ the King? Last Sunday? Advent?
Post by: Jonathan Priest on November 08, 2017, 11:29:16 AM
Sunday morning, Advent IV.
Sunday evening, Eve of the Nativity.
Monday, Christmas.

The only significant transfer taking place at my congregation is that we will move the location of the organist to the piano and use DSIV from LSB. I told my organist if she was worried about fatigue (she is a Lutheran school teacher close to retirement) that she could take Sunday morning off and I'd lead liturgy and hymns on the guitar. Our board of deacons discussed the option of not having services on Sunday morning, but we were in consensus that to go against the local church's good and pious habit was detrimental to the encouragement of faith and individual conscience.

Jonathan