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ALPB => Your Turn => Topic started by: peter_speckhard on December 01, 2015, 11:51:38 AM

Title: LCMS dissolves Memorandum of Understanding with Boy Scouts of America
Post by: peter_speckhard on December 01, 2015, 11:51:38 AM
Tuesday, Dec. 1, 2015

Dear brothers and sisters in Christ,

The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the communion of the Holy Spirit be with you all. Amen.

First, we apologize for the slow nature of this letter, realizing that congregations and individuals have been waiting for word from the Synod on this issue. However, the recent Boy Scouts of America (BSA) adult leadership standards change — effected by the BSA National Executive Board July 10, 2015, that lifted the BSA’s ban on openly gay Scout leaders — caused great concern and has led us formally to dissolve the Memorandum of Understanding (MOU) between The Lutheran Church—Missouri Synod (LCMS) and the BSA. As of Dec. 1, 2015, the LCMS no longer has an official relationship with the BSA.

Second, while we understand the legal concerns that led to this new BSA direction, it is simply a place the church is not willing to go. At our summer 2013 meeting with the BSA, we were assured that changes concerning adult leadership would not be on the table, but that was not the case. We are now being told that the LGBT agenda, even with the most recent change, won’t affect the content of Scouting or the BSA experience, but we do not believe that will be the case.

Third, it is important to know that the LCMS has never “endorsed” Scouting formally. Past Synod conventions determined that participating in Scouting was not a matter of fellowship and did not undermine our theological convictions or violate our position on unionism and syncretism. Therefore, the matter of Scouting was “left to the individual congregation to decide,” with each congregation having the responsibility to “establish its own policy as pastoral wisdom on the part of both the congregation and the ministry in its own particular situation dictates.” “Synod thus neither encourages nor discourages Scoutism in any congregation” (1953 Convention Proceedings, pp. 555–556). Unless the Synod in convention issues a change, this is still the case.

We have had an MOU with the BSA for some time that was based on mutual trust between the LCMS and the BSA. The memorandum was renewed periodically through the years by different LCMS presidents. The BSA’s recent inconsistent direction on human sexuality and its policy changes, however, have led our office to conclude that such an MOU is, regretfully, no longer tenable, and thus our decision formally to dissolve the MOU between the LCMS and the BSA.

As congregations now consider their continued involvement with the BSA, we thought it important to share something of this past and recent history of the LCMS–BSA relationship. We also need to share potential legal concerns that chartering LCMS congregations should consider. Recent federal rulings, including the Supreme Court ruling in Obergefell v. Hodges, are shaping decisions by organizations such as the BSA. Previous rulings, including the Boy Scouts of America v. Dale decision, seem likely to no longer hold in court.

For instance, a recent BSA memorandum cites cases demonstrating that the BSA has been held to be a place of public accommodation in some states and not in others, noting there is no national determination of the issue. Interestingly, the memorandum readily acknowledges that cases that previously held that the BSA was not a place of accommodation were decided long ago when “the courts viewed homosexuals and the BSA in different lights,” and it ends the discussion by candidly saying, “A court could conclude that the BSA is a place of public accommodation based on the size and inclusiveness of the Scouting program.” Based on these comments, it appears that the law is growing stronger for those who might be in a position to file suit for discrimination against the BSA and, by extension, against chartered organizations, including LCMS congregations.

While legal speculation is just that, we are concerned that the legal boundaries are still being drawn with each court case, and we are concerned that LCMS congregations could be pulled into such a legal battle. Congregations who continue their BSA charters after the Dec. 1, 2015, dissolution of the LCMS MOU should seek local legal counsel and guidance on how best to safeguard themselves legally.

To that end, we are calling for the establishment of a task force to consider Scouting and the involvement of the LCMS going forward. The landscape and intersection of church and world — including Scouting — has drastically changed since our Synod’s decisions on Scouting matters in the 1950s. We recognize that the BSA and other Scouting programs have a positive impact on the lives of many Lutherans and LCMS congregations and schools. However, the times demand we ask important questions. How should the church engage and be involved going forward? How does the church participate in a faithful way so that our children are able to be involved and the church’s confession remains unhampered?

Again, we appreciate the patience of the church as we have been considering these issues over the past several months. We lament the fact that an MOU between the LCMS and the BSA is no longer possible. We pray that the Lord of the church will bless congregations and individuals as they consider the information shared here and chart a faithful course forward.

Peace,

Rev. Dr. Matthew C. Harrison, president
The Lutheran Church—Missouri Synod

Rev. Bart Day, executive director
LCMS Office of National Mission
Title: Re: LCMS dissolves Memorandum of Understanding with Boy Scouts of America
Post by: LutherMan on December 01, 2015, 12:01:05 PM
About  time...
Title: Re: LCMS dissolves Memorandum of Understanding with Boy Scouts of America
Post by: Mark_Hofman on December 01, 2015, 12:09:27 PM
There is an extended version of this announcement online:  http://blogs.lcms.org/2015/boy-scouts-of-america-update (http://blogs.lcms.org/2015/boy-scouts-of-america-update)
Title: Re: LCMS dissolves Memorandum of Understanding with Boy Scouts of America
Post by: Charles Austin on December 01, 2015, 01:18:21 PM
Seems simple to me. If LCMS youth want to take part in scouting, they simply join a troop in their town sponsored by another church. What would be wrong with that?
Title: Re: LCMS dissolves Memorandum of Understanding with Boy Scouts of America
Post by: Matt Staneck on December 01, 2015, 02:32:48 PM
Seems simple to me. If LCMS youth want to take part in scouting, they simply join a troop in their town sponsored by another church. What would be wrong with that?

Yes. Agreed.

What if, however, you have a local congregation that has long chartered a troop (say its entire history) and in days gone past the troop were also members of the congregation, yet today a very, very small percentage (1-2%) of the troop are members of the congregation, yet the two histories are so intertwined that it is difficult to tell them apart?

Asking for a friend.....

M. Staneck
Title: Re: LCMS dissolves Memorandum of Understanding with Boy Scouts of America
Post by: LutherMan on December 01, 2015, 02:44:50 PM
I cannot understand  how any properly catechized LCMS parents could want their kids in the scouts...
Title: Re: LCMS dissolves Memorandum of Understanding with Boy Scouts of America
Post by: Dan Fienen on December 01, 2015, 04:33:44 PM
I would not want a Scout Troop, even one sponsored by my congregation and led by congregation members to be instructing my young men in religion.  Nor would I look to BSA's policies to instruct my young men in proper sexual conduct.  If there comes a time when official BSA teaching calls what my church teaches false, that would be a different story.

There are many possible benefits to Scouting and Scouting like organizations for both young men and women.  So far it seems that opening up to active homosexuals is a matter of local option.  While that has made it too difficult to continue official recognition of BSA by the LCMS with a Memorandum of Understanding, the possibility seems open to maintain within the local troop an acceptable arrangement.  So I can understand why churches and parents might want to maintain Scouting for their youth because of the positive aspects of it.

As for encountering other troops with other policies at large Scouting events, our kids need to learn that people have many opinions and ideas that we do not always agree with and learn to function in a pluralistic world without compromising their own beliefs.  That is the world that we are raising them to inhabit.
Title: Re: LCMS dissolves Memorandum of Understanding with Boy Scouts of America
Post by: Richard Johnson on December 01, 2015, 07:41:28 PM
Somewhere there are WELS people tsktsking, "Told you so."  8)
Title: Re: LCMS dissolves Memorandum of Understanding with Boy Scouts of America
Post by: Weedon on December 01, 2015, 07:44:21 PM
Richard, the thought occurred to me immediately upon reading the memo.
Title: Re: LCMS dissolves Memorandum of Understanding with Boy Scouts of America
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on December 01, 2015, 08:25:02 PM
I just talked with a member who is an Eagle Scout and continues to work with the Boy Scouts of America. At least in our area, the largest participants in scouting and troop leadership are Mormons. If the BSA had not given local leaders authority over their troops, they would have lost the Mormon population. The Mormon troops are not allowed to camp out Saturday night, because they need to be home and attending worship on Sunday.
Title: Re: LCMS dissolves Memorandum of Understanding with Boy Scouts of America
Post by: Dave Benke on December 01, 2015, 09:19:48 PM
Seems simple to me. If LCMS youth want to take part in scouting, they simply join a troop in their town sponsored by another church. What would be wrong with that?

Yes. Agreed.

What if, however, you have a local congregation that has long chartered a troop (say its entire history) and in days gone past the troop were also members of the congregation, yet today a very, very small percentage (1-2%) of the troop are members of the congregation, yet the two histories are so intertwined that it is difficult to tell them apart?

Asking for a friend.....

M. Staneck

Keep doing what you're doing.  Consult your Bishop/President.  As stated in the memo, the Synod is advisory to the local congregation in this matter.

Dave Benke
Title: Re: LCMS dissolves Memorandum of Understanding with Boy Scouts of America
Post by: peterm on December 02, 2015, 11:58:44 AM
Good words from Pastor Fienen upstream.  One of my sons is involved in scouting and I am as well.  It has been very beneficial for him in a number of ways.  The troop is sponsored by our local Kiwanis club, though it meets at my church.  Most of the boys are members of my congregation and those that aren't claim no membership anywhere in town.  In my years involved in scouting...going back to my service as a chaplain at one of the camps while in seminary; I have never experience national telling a troop, our council that they HAD to accept someone in leadership that they felt would be a bad fit.  There is plenty of flexibility and responsibility at the local level for the Troop committee to choose the person that they feel best qualified to lead.  NO ONE would be chosen on basis of their sexual orientation alone; and whoever was chosen would still have to conform to the youth protection and leadership standards set by the national organization.
Title: Re: LCMS dissolves Memorandum of Understanding with Boy Scouts of America
Post by: Donald_Kirchner on December 02, 2015, 12:16:31 PM
Good words from Pastor Fienen upstream.  One of my sons is involved in scouting and I am as well.  It has been very beneficial for him in a number of ways.  The troop is sponsored by our local Kiwanis club, though it meets at my church.  Most of the boys are members of my congregation and those that aren't claim no membership anywhere in town.  In my years involved in scouting...going back to my service as a chaplain at one of the camps while in seminary; I have never experience national telling a troop, our council that they HAD to accept someone in leadership that they felt would be a bad fit.  There is plenty of flexibility and responsibility at the local level for the Troop committee to choose the person that they feel best qualified to lead.  NO ONE would be chosen on basis of their sexual orientation alone; and whoever was chosen would still have to conform to the youth protection and leadership standards set by the national organization.

My opinion is that you are treading on thin ice. Seldom does a legal entity blatantly wrongfully discriminate. They usually come up with what would be a "legal" reason for not hiring/appointing someone in a protected class. Perhaps "NO ONE would be chosen on basis of their sexual orientation alone," but if a trier of fact determines that an entity rejected someone on the basis of their sexual orientation that entity legally/financially could suffer for it. It appears that national will be of little or no help.

Why do you think Synod is backing away from the BSA? (Hint: Money usually is a major factor.)

"While legal speculation is just that, we are concerned that the legal boundaries are still being drawn with each court case, and we are concerned that LCMS congregations could be pulled into such a legal battle. Congregations who continue their BSA charters after the Dec. 1, 2015, dissolution of the LCMS MOU should seek local legal counsel and guidance on how best to safeguard themselves legally."
Title: Re: LCMS dissolves Memorandum of Understanding with Boy Scouts of America
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on December 02, 2015, 12:51:30 PM
Good words from Pastor Fienen upstream.  One of my sons is involved in scouting and I am as well.  It has been very beneficial for him in a number of ways.  The troop is sponsored by our local Kiwanis club, though it meets at my church.  Most of the boys are members of my congregation and those that aren't claim no membership anywhere in town.  In my years involved in scouting...going back to my service as a chaplain at one of the camps while in seminary; I have never experience national telling a troop, our council that they HAD to accept someone in leadership that they felt would be a bad fit.  There is plenty of flexibility and responsibility at the local level for the Troop committee to choose the person that they feel best qualified to lead.  NO ONE would be chosen on basis of their sexual orientation alone; and whoever was chosen would still have to conform to the youth protection and leadership standards set by the national organization.

My opinion is that you are treading on thin ice. Seldom does a legal entity blatantly wrongfully discriminate. They usually come up with what would be a "legal" reason for not hiring/appointing someone in a protected class. Perhaps "NO ONE would be chosen on basis of their sexual orientation alone," but if a trier of fact determines that an entity rejected someone on the basis of their sexual orientation that entity legally/financially could suffer for it. It appears that national will be of little or no help.

Why do you think Synod is backing away from the BSA? (Hint: Money usually is a major factor.)

"While legal speculation is just that, we are concerned that the legal boundaries are still being drawn with each court case, and we are concerned that LCMS congregations could be pulled into such a legal battle. Congregations who continue their BSA charters after the Dec. 1, 2015, dissolution of the LCMS MOU should seek local legal counsel and guidance on how best to safeguard themselves legally."


So, why isn't the LDS with its similar view of homosexual behaviors backing away like the LCMS?
Title: Re: LCMS dissolves Memorandum of Understanding with Boy Scouts of America
Post by: John_Hannah on December 02, 2015, 12:54:07 PM
Seems simple to me. If LCMS youth want to take part in scouting, they simply join a troop in their town sponsored by another church. What would be wrong with that?

Yes. Agreed.

What if, however, you have a local congregation that has long chartered a troop (say its entire history) and in days gone past the troop were also members of the congregation, yet today a very, very small percentage (1-2%) of the troop are members of the congregation, yet the two histories are so intertwined that it is difficult to tell them apart?

Asking for a friend.....

M. Staneck

I would ask the congregation, telling them what St. Louis has done. This may be a good time to close out. Yet, if there is nothing untoward happening, they may wish to remain. If, in the future, things change they can also change. It is their choice.

Peace, JOHN
Title: Re: LCMS dissolves Memorandum of Understanding with Boy Scouts of America
Post by: Donald_Kirchner on December 02, 2015, 01:03:52 PM
Good words from Pastor Fienen upstream.  One of my sons is involved in scouting and I am as well.  It has been very beneficial for him in a number of ways.  The troop is sponsored by our local Kiwanis club, though it meets at my church.  Most of the boys are members of my congregation and those that aren't claim no membership anywhere in town.  In my years involved in scouting...going back to my service as a chaplain at one of the camps while in seminary; I have never experience national telling a troop, our council that they HAD to accept someone in leadership that they felt would be a bad fit.  There is plenty of flexibility and responsibility at the local level for the Troop committee to choose the person that they feel best qualified to lead.  NO ONE would be chosen on basis of their sexual orientation alone; and whoever was chosen would still have to conform to the youth protection and leadership standards set by the national organization.

My opinion is that you are treading on thin ice. Seldom does a legal entity blatantly wrongfully discriminate. They usually come up with what would be a "legal" reason for not hiring/appointing someone in a protected class. Perhaps "NO ONE would be chosen on basis of their sexual orientation alone," but if a trier of fact determines that an entity rejected someone on the basis of their sexual orientation that entity legally/financially could suffer for it. It appears that national will be of little or no help.

Why do you think Synod is backing away from the BSA? (Hint: Money usually is a major factor.)

"While legal speculation is just that, we are concerned that the legal boundaries are still being drawn with each court case, and we are concerned that LCMS congregations could be pulled into such a legal battle. Congregations who continue their BSA charters after the Dec. 1, 2015, dissolution of the LCMS MOU should seek local legal counsel and guidance on how best to safeguard themselves legally."

So, why isn't the LDS with its similar view of homosexual behaviors backing away like the LCMS?

Do we have any Mormons on this board? Are you asking them?
Title: Re: LCMS dissolves Memorandum of Understanding with Boy Scouts of America
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on December 02, 2015, 01:11:45 PM
Good words from Pastor Fienen upstream.  One of my sons is involved in scouting and I am as well.  It has been very beneficial for him in a number of ways.  The troop is sponsored by our local Kiwanis club, though it meets at my church.  Most of the boys are members of my congregation and those that aren't claim no membership anywhere in town.  In my years involved in scouting...going back to my service as a chaplain at one of the camps while in seminary; I have never experience national telling a troop, our council that they HAD to accept someone in leadership that they felt would be a bad fit.  There is plenty of flexibility and responsibility at the local level for the Troop committee to choose the person that they feel best qualified to lead.  NO ONE would be chosen on basis of their sexual orientation alone; and whoever was chosen would still have to conform to the youth protection and leadership standards set by the national organization.

My opinion is that you are treading on thin ice. Seldom does a legal entity blatantly wrongfully discriminate. They usually come up with what would be a "legal" reason for not hiring/appointing someone in a protected class. Perhaps "NO ONE would be chosen on basis of their sexual orientation alone," but if a trier of fact determines that an entity rejected someone on the basis of their sexual orientation that entity legally/financially could suffer for it. It appears that national will be of little or no help.

Why do you think Synod is backing away from the BSA? (Hint: Money usually is a major factor.)

"While legal speculation is just that, we are concerned that the legal boundaries are still being drawn with each court case, and we are concerned that LCMS congregations could be pulled into such a legal battle. Congregations who continue their BSA charters after the Dec. 1, 2015, dissolution of the LCMS MOU should seek local legal counsel and guidance on how best to safeguard themselves legally."

So, why isn't the LDS with its similar view of homosexual behaviors backing away like the LCMS?

Do we have any Mormons on this board? Are you asking them?


The answer I got from a church member who is highly involved with Scouting is that the Mormons take seriously the autonomy that scouting gives them for their troops.
Title: Re: LCMS dissolves Memorandum of Understanding with Boy Scouts of America
Post by: LutherMan on December 02, 2015, 01:23:48 PM
http://blogs.lcms.org/2015/relationship-with-bsa
LCMS relationship with BSA ‘no longer tenable’
on December 1, 2015 in New This Week, News, Reporter 4

As of today (Dec. 1), the formal relationship between The Lutheran Church—Missouri Synod and the Boy Scouts of America (BSA) is “no longer tenable,” according to LCMS President Rev. Dr. Matthew C. Harrison and Office of National Mission Executive Director Rev. Bart Day. The decision came as a result of the BSA’s action, made earlier this year, to allow openly gay Scout leaders.

In a statement released today, Harrison and Day outlined months of conversation and correspondence with leadership from the BSA prior to the Synod’s dissolution of the Memorandum of Understanding with the BSA, noting that “while we understand the legal concerns that led to this new BSA direction, it is simply a place the church is not willing to go.”

Legal concerns were also a determining factor. “Recent federal rulings, including the Supreme Court ruling in Obergefell v. Hodges, are shaping decisions by organizations such as the BSA,” the statement explained. “Congregations who continue their BSA charters after the Dec. 1, 2015, dissolution of the LCMS MOU should seek local legal counsel and guidance on how best to safeguard themselves legally.”

Harrison and Day also noted that they “lament the fact that an MOU between the LCMS and the BSA is no longer possible” and “pray that the Lord of the church will bless congregations and individuals as they consider the information shared here and chart a faithful course forward.”

To read the statement or a shortened version of it, click here.

Posted Dec. 1, 2015

Title: Re: LCMS dissolves Memorandum of Understanding with Boy Scouts of America
Post by: Dave Likeness on December 02, 2015, 01:48:47 PM
What about the Girl Scouts of America?   Have we checked out
their troop leaders?   Are they allowing lesbians to be Girl Scout
leaders?   Who is actually baking the Girl Scout cookies?

Bottom Line:  Do not focus completely on the Boy Scouts.
Title: Re: LCMS dissolves Memorandum of Understanding with Boy Scouts of America
Post by: Donald_Kirchner on December 02, 2015, 02:24:38 PM
Good words from Pastor Fienen upstream.  One of my sons is involved in scouting and I am as well.  It has been very beneficial for him in a number of ways.  The troop is sponsored by our local Kiwanis club, though it meets at my church.  Most of the boys are members of my congregation and those that aren't claim no membership anywhere in town.  In my years involved in scouting...going back to my service as a chaplain at one of the camps while in seminary; I have never experience national telling a troop, our council that they HAD to accept someone in leadership that they felt would be a bad fit.  There is plenty of flexibility and responsibility at the local level for the Troop committee to choose the person that they feel best qualified to lead.  NO ONE would be chosen on basis of their sexual orientation alone; and whoever was chosen would still have to conform to the youth protection and leadership standards set by the national organization.

My opinion is that you are treading on thin ice. Seldom does a legal entity blatantly wrongfully discriminate. They usually come up with what would be a "legal" reason for not hiring/appointing someone in a protected class. Perhaps "NO ONE would be chosen on basis of their sexual orientation alone," but if a trier of fact determines that an entity rejected someone on the basis of their sexual orientation that entity legally/financially could suffer for it. It appears that national will be of little or no help.

Why do you think Synod is backing away from the BSA? (Hint: Money usually is a major factor.)

"While legal speculation is just that, we are concerned that the legal boundaries are still being drawn with each court case, and we are concerned that LCMS congregations could be pulled into such a legal battle. Congregations who continue their BSA charters after the Dec. 1, 2015, dissolution of the LCMS MOU should seek local legal counsel and guidance on how best to safeguard themselves legally."

So, why isn't the LDS with its similar view of homosexual behaviors backing away like the LCMS?

Do we have any Mormons on this board? Are you asking them?

The answer I got from a church member who is highly involved with Scouting is that the Mormons take seriously the autonomy that scouting gives them for their troops.

So, your question really wasn't a question but, rather, an attempted "gotcha." Always playing games, BS.   ::)
Title: Re: LCMS dissolves Memorandum of Understanding with Boy Scouts of America
Post by: LutherMan on December 02, 2015, 02:37:03 PM
Hundreds Leave Mormon Church Despite Clarification On Anti-Gay Baptism Policy

http://thinkprogress.org/lgbt/2015/11/16/3722461/mormon-resignation-protest/
Title: Re: LCMS dissolves Memorandum of Understanding with Boy Scouts of America
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on December 02, 2015, 04:16:58 PM
Good words from Pastor Fienen upstream.  One of my sons is involved in scouting and I am as well.  It has been very beneficial for him in a number of ways.  The troop is sponsored by our local Kiwanis club, though it meets at my church.  Most of the boys are members of my congregation and those that aren't claim no membership anywhere in town.  In my years involved in scouting...going back to my service as a chaplain at one of the camps while in seminary; I have never experience national telling a troop, our council that they HAD to accept someone in leadership that they felt would be a bad fit.  There is plenty of flexibility and responsibility at the local level for the Troop committee to choose the person that they feel best qualified to lead.  NO ONE would be chosen on basis of their sexual orientation alone; and whoever was chosen would still have to conform to the youth protection and leadership standards set by the national organization.

My opinion is that you are treading on thin ice. Seldom does a legal entity blatantly wrongfully discriminate. They usually come up with what would be a "legal" reason for not hiring/appointing someone in a protected class. Perhaps "NO ONE would be chosen on basis of their sexual orientation alone," but if a trier of fact determines that an entity rejected someone on the basis of their sexual orientation that entity legally/financially could suffer for it. It appears that national will be of little or no help.

Why do you think Synod is backing away from the BSA? (Hint: Money usually is a major factor.)

"While legal speculation is just that, we are concerned that the legal boundaries are still being drawn with each court case, and we are concerned that LCMS congregations could be pulled into such a legal battle. Congregations who continue their BSA charters after the Dec. 1, 2015, dissolution of the LCMS MOU should seek local legal counsel and guidance on how best to safeguard themselves legally."

So, why isn't the LDS with its similar view of homosexual behaviors backing away like the LCMS?

Do we have any Mormons on this board? Are you asking them?

The answer I got from a church member who is highly involved with Scouting is that the Mormons take seriously the autonomy that scouting gives them for their troops.

So, your question really wasn't a question but, rather, an attempted "gotcha." Always playing games, BS.   ::)


No, I asked an honest question: Why is the LCMS pulling out and LDS is not? The questioned was spurred by the conversation with my member about scouting and the strong involvement by the LDS in our area.
Title: Re: LCMS dissolves Memorandum of Understanding with Boy Scouts of America
Post by: Donald_Kirchner on December 02, 2015, 04:23:33 PM
Good words from Pastor Fienen upstream.  One of my sons is involved in scouting and I am as well.  It has been very beneficial for him in a number of ways.  The troop is sponsored by our local Kiwanis club, though it meets at my church.  Most of the boys are members of my congregation and those that aren't claim no membership anywhere in town.  In my years involved in scouting...going back to my service as a chaplain at one of the camps while in seminary; I have never experience national telling a troop, our council that they HAD to accept someone in leadership that they felt would be a bad fit.  There is plenty of flexibility and responsibility at the local level for the Troop committee to choose the person that they feel best qualified to lead.  NO ONE would be chosen on basis of their sexual orientation alone; and whoever was chosen would still have to conform to the youth protection and leadership standards set by the national organization.

My opinion is that you are treading on thin ice. Seldom does a legal entity blatantly wrongfully discriminate. They usually come up with what would be a "legal" reason for not hiring/appointing someone in a protected class. Perhaps "NO ONE would be chosen on basis of their sexual orientation alone," but if a trier of fact determines that an entity rejected someone on the basis of their sexual orientation that entity legally/financially could suffer for it. It appears that national will be of little or no help.

Why do you think Synod is backing away from the BSA? (Hint: Money usually is a major factor.)

"While legal speculation is just that, we are concerned that the legal boundaries are still being drawn with each court case, and we are concerned that LCMS congregations could be pulled into such a legal battle. Congregations who continue their BSA charters after the Dec. 1, 2015, dissolution of the LCMS MOU should seek local legal counsel and guidance on how best to safeguard themselves legally."

So, why isn't the LDS with its similar view of homosexual behaviors backing away like the LCMS?

Do we have any Mormons on this board? Are you asking them?

The answer I got from a church member who is highly involved with Scouting is that the Mormons take seriously the autonomy that scouting gives them for their troops.

So, your question really wasn't a question but, rather, an attempted "gotcha." Always playing games, BS.   ::)

No, I asked an honest question: Why is the LCMS pulling out and LDS is not? The questioned was spurred by the conversation with my member about scouting and the strong involvement by the LDS in our area.

No, BS, you didn't ask that question. You asked, "So, why isn't the LDS with its similar view of homosexual behaviors backing away like the LCMS?" A member of yours "highly involved with Scouting" already had given you the answer. If you need further info, I suggested you ask a Mormon. There are plenty in your area.
Title: Re: LCMS dissolves Memorandum of Understanding with Boy Scouts of America
Post by: Tim Schenks on December 03, 2015, 04:22:19 AM
Seems simple to me. If LCMS youth want to take part in scouting, they simply join a troop in their town sponsored by another church. What would be wrong with that?

That's pretty much what happened here. My congregation's scout troop disbanded before I was old enough to join. I ended up joining one sponsored not by another church but by the public elementary school. We put on Christmas programs at that public school too.

They always say it's not a religious organization, but I sure do remember when I was very young (early or mid 1970s) the Eagle Scouts in our congregation would be pinned/badged (?) during the Sunday Divine Service in front of the altar and the pictures would be put in the newspaper.
Title: Re: LCMS dissolves Memorandum of Understanding with Boy Scouts of America
Post by: Charles Austin on December 03, 2015, 06:12:56 AM
Scouting itself is not "religious," (except maybe for that word "reverent" in its list of 12 virtues). But scouting does have awards - given under the auspices of and supervision of churches - for service in one's congregation.
Title: Re: LCMS dissolves Memorandum of Understanding with Boy Scouts of America
Post by: Tim Schenks on December 03, 2015, 06:51:09 AM
Scouting itself is not "religious," (except maybe for that word "reverent" in its list of 12 virtues).

That reminds me of the old Captain Marvel character "Shazam" - six virtues: Solomon's wisdom, Hercules' strength, etc.  :)
Title: Re: LCMS dissolves Memorandum of Understanding with Boy Scouts of America
Post by: Charles Austin on December 03, 2015, 10:11:49 AM
I had in mind the Boy Scout Law: A scout is trustworthy, loyal, helpful, friendly, courteous, kind, obedient, cheerful, thrifty, brave, clean and reverent.
I don't know what the Boy Scout Gospel might be.
Title: Re: LCMS dissolves Memorandum of Understanding with Boy Scouts of America
Post by: DeHall on December 03, 2015, 01:32:54 PM
Trail Life USA was founded in 2013 in reaction to changes in the BSA membership policies.  as of January 7, 2015, it had 524 troops in 48 states and just under 20,000 members.   IIRC, LC MS churches can affiliate with this organization.  If your church currently sponsors a BSA Troop and is considering dropping their sponsorship, this may be an alternative solution.

Trail Life USA is a partner with American Heritage Girls
Title: Re: LCMS dissolves Memorandum of Understanding with Boy Scouts of America
Post by: Richard Johnson on December 03, 2015, 05:18:12 PM
No, BS, you didn't ask that question. You asked, "So, why isn't the LDS with its similar view of homosexual behaviors backing away like the LCMS?" A member of yours "highly involved with Scouting" already had given you the answer. If you need further info, I suggested you ask a Mormon. There are plenty in your area.

You know, you may think that your constant reference to Brian as "BS" is cute and clever. While I may agree with your implied characterization of a good bit of what Brian writes, I don't think your reference is cute and clever. I think it is rude and disrespectful, and as far as humor goes, it floats around the level of a fifth-grader.
Title: Re: LCMS dissolves Memorandum of Understanding with Boy Scouts of America
Post by: Donald_Kirchner on December 03, 2015, 05:27:00 PM
No, BS, you didn't ask that question. You asked, "So, why isn't the LDS with its similar view of homosexual behaviors backing away like the LCMS?" A member of yours "highly involved with Scouting" already had given you the answer. If you need further info, I suggested you ask a Mormon. There are plenty in your area.

You know, you may think that your constant reference to Brian as "BS" is cute and clever. While I may agree with your implied characterization of a good bit of what Brian writes, I don't think your reference is cute and clever. I think it is rude and disrespectful, and as far as humor goes, it floats around the level of a fifth-grader.

You know what happens when you assume, Rev. Johnson.
Title: Re: LCMS dissolves Memorandum of Understanding with Boy Scouts of America
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on December 03, 2015, 05:54:49 PM
No, BS, you didn't ask that question. You asked, "So, why isn't the LDS with its similar view of homosexual behaviors backing away like the LCMS?" A member of yours "highly involved with Scouting" already had given you the answer. If you need further info, I suggested you ask a Mormon. There are plenty in your area.

You know, you may think that your constant reference to Brian as "BS" is cute and clever. While I may agree with your implied characterization of a good bit of what Brian writes, I don't think your reference is cute and clever. I think it is rude and disrespectful, and as far as humor goes, it floats around the level of a fifth-grader.


I'm sure he means Brilliant Scholar.
Title: Re: LCMS dissolves Memorandum of Understanding with Boy Scouts of America
Post by: Harvey_Mozolak on December 03, 2015, 09:01:01 PM
Glad you wrote this Richard, I hate to poke things too much and so glad Brian (whom I often also disagree with but do not find disagreeable) was politely silent...  enough is enough even tho one cannot prove any "initial" and ongoing disparagement, it sure smells like it due to its repetitive nature. 



You know, you may think that your constant reference to Brian as "BS" is cute and clever. While I may agree with your implied characterization of a good bit of what Brian writes, I don't think your reference is cute and clever. I think it is rude and disrespectful, and as far as humor goes, it floats around the level of a fifth-grader.
Title: Re: LCMS dissolves Memorandum of Understanding with Boy Scouts of America
Post by: MaddogLutheran on December 03, 2015, 10:22:59 PM
Glad you wrote this Richard, I hate to poke things too much and so glad Brian (whom I often also disagree with but do not find disagreeable) was politely silent...  enough is enough even tho one cannot prove any "initial" and ongoing disparagement, it sure smells like it due to its repetitive nature. 



You know, you may think that your constant reference to Brian as "BS" is cute and clever. While I may agree with your implied characterization of a good bit of what Brian writes, I don't think your reference is cute and clever. I think it is rude and disrespectful, and as far as humor goes, it floats around the level of a fifth-grader.

I recognize that the moderators have a particular responsibility, and we all have a duty to be civil to each other...but I question whether this inference is putting the best possible construct on Pr. Kirchner's usage.  The Eight Commandment can be tricky indeed.

Personally I wouldn't do what he's doing, because it might be misinterpreted (unless I intended it that way), but I also wouldn't call him on it because it's an unfair inference.  Especially since others here have there idiosyncratic way of interacting.

YMMV

Title: Re: LCMS dissolves Memorandum of Understanding with Boy Scouts of America
Post by: Dave Likeness on December 03, 2015, 10:38:43 PM
Pastor Brian of Yuma, Arizona is a brother in Christ and deserves
to be treated as one.  One time in 1993, I got off the Interstate
and fueled our car in Yuma and ate at a nearby cafeteria.  Our
family was amazed at their July heat.   We drank plenty of water
and went on our way to San Diego.
Title: Re: LCMS dissolves Memorandum of Understanding with Boy Scouts of America
Post by: LutherMan on December 03, 2015, 10:44:57 PM
Glad you wrote this Richard, I hate to poke things too much and so glad Brian (whom I often also disagree with but do not find disagreeable) was politely silent...  enough is enough even tho one cannot prove any "initial" and ongoing disparagement, it sure smells like it due to its repetitive nature. 



You know, you may think that your constant reference to Brian as "BS" is cute and clever. While I may agree with your implied characterization of a good bit of what Brian writes, I don't think your reference is cute and clever. I think it is rude and disrespectful, and as far as humor goes, it floats around the level of a fifth-grader.

I recognize that the moderators have a particular responsibility, and we all have a duty to be civil to each other...but I question whether this inference is putting the best possible construct on Pr. Kirchner's usage.  The Eight Commandment can be tricky indeed.

Personally I wouldn't do what he's doing, because it might be misinterpreted (unless I intended it that way), but I also wouldn't call him on it because it's an unfair inference.  Especially since others here have there idiosyncratic way of interacting.

YMMV
Wise words, indeed...
Title: Re: LCMS dissolves Memorandum of Understanding with Boy Scouts of America
Post by: Dan Fienen on December 03, 2015, 10:48:58 PM
Does Pr. Kirchner refer to anyone else by their initials as he does with Pr. Stoffregen?
Title: Re: LCMS dissolves Memorandum of Understanding with Boy Scouts of America
Post by: Richard Johnson on December 03, 2015, 10:56:37 PM


Personally I wouldn't do what he's doing, because it might be misinterpreted (unless I intended it that way), but I also wouldn't call him on it because it's an unfair inference.  Especially since others here have there idiosyncratic way of interacting.

I posted this a few minutes ago, but it seems to have disappeared into cyberspace. I note that (a) Pr. Kirchner consistently refers to Brian by his initials, (b) Pr. Kirchner doesn't refer to anyone else by initials, and (c) what he says to Brian makes it pretty clear that he and Brian don't share some intimate friendship outside this forum that leads to his using his initials in an affectionate way.

In light of all that, I find preposterous his implication that I have misunderstood his intent. I do not apologize for my inference. Nor do I think it is incorrect.
Title: Re: LCMS dissolves Memorandum of Understanding with Boy Scouts of America
Post by: Robert Johnson on December 03, 2015, 11:35:50 PM
You know what happens when you assume, Rev. Johnson.

The assumption is perfectly rational.  In the vernacular, you're being a dick.
Title: Re: LCMS dissolves Memorandum of Understanding with Boy Scouts of America
Post by: Donald_Kirchner on December 04, 2015, 01:52:47 AM


Personally I wouldn't do what he's doing, because it might be misinterpreted (unless I intended it that way), but I also wouldn't call him on it because it's an unfair inference.  Especially since others here have there idiosyncratic way of interacting.

I posted this a few minutes ago, but it seems to have disappeared into cyberspace. I note that (a) Pr. Kirchner consistently refers to Brian by his initials, (b) Pr. Kirchner doesn't refer to anyone else by initials, and (c) what he says to Brian makes it pretty clear that he and Brian don't share some intimate friendship outside this forum that leads to his using his initials in an affectionate way.

In light of all that, I find preposterous his implication that I have misunderstood his intent. I do not apologize for my inference. Nor do I think it is incorrect.

You misunderstand, Rev Johnson. You assume that I meant that using Bian Stoffregen's initials was to be cute or humorous. It was not.

If you took exception to my use of what are his initials you could have messaged me. Instead, you've attempted to humiliate me, others have piled on and, like when you deleted that guy's post then, when he made a comment having nothing to do with the deletion, you brought it up again, you perpetuate what you consider a problem.

No one is asking you to apologize. Interesting that you should assume that it is being requested. But it would be nice if, as a moderator, you would not publicly bully others and continue rather than limit what you consider rudeness and disrespectibility.

Which I expect, in your power, you will do shortly.
Title: Re: LCMS dissolves Memorandum of Understanding with Boy Scouts of America
Post by: Charles Austin on December 04, 2015, 04:23:05 AM
Our moderator is not alone in his interpretation of your use of the initials, Pastor Kirchner. At least two or three others here have the same understanding. And there is a simple solution, even if you contend the interpretation is wrong (which I do not think it is). Just stop doing it. Problem solved. You're welcome.
Title: Re: LCMS dissolves Memorandum of Understanding with Boy Scouts of America
Post by: Fletch on December 04, 2015, 06:21:06 AM

If you took exception to my use of what are his initials you could have messaged me. Instead, you've attempted to humiliate me, others have piled on and, like when you deleted that guy's post then, when he made a comment having nothing to do with the deletion, you brought it up again, you perpetuate what you consider a problem.


My thoughts exactly, especially on a religious forum with a heavy dose of Seminary graduates as participants.  I'd like to think we are better than this.  Perhaps we should reread the 8th Commandment thread.   :'(

... Fletch
Title: Re: LCMS dissolves Memorandum of Understanding with Boy Scouts of America
Post by: Harvey_Mozolak on December 04, 2015, 07:24:30 AM
I suppose one could also research whether Brian was always refered to by his initials or if that changed.  Are others refered to by initials without periods and the like.m?  Was there a post or a series of posts that might have precipitated such a change in reference?   I don't know what such review would show but some are good at such research. 
Title: Re: LCMS dissolves Memorandum of Understanding with Boy Scouts of America
Post by: Charles Austin on December 04, 2015, 09:15:32 AM
Rather weary, am I, of the 8th Commandment shibboleth. The commandment does not prevent us from calling someone a jerk when it is not lying to say they are a jerk.
Title: Re: LCMS dissolves Memorandum of Understanding with Boy Scouts of America
Post by: MaddogLutheran on December 04, 2015, 09:46:35 AM
Rather weary, am I, of the 8th Commandment shibboleth. The commandment does not prevent us from calling someone a jerk when it is not lying to say they are a jerk.
No, it doesn't.  I know I'm very weary.

If we're going to clear the air, I will say I take offense at you calling what I said previously "8th Commandment shibboleth".  I really meant what I said.

Sterling Spatz
Title: Re: LCMS dissolves Memorandum of Understanding with Boy Scouts of America
Post by: LutherMan on February 27, 2016, 03:55:36 PM
http://www.wkow.com/story/31330598/2016/02/26/some-wisconsin-churches-drop-partnerships-with-boy-scouts

Janesville, Appleton churches drop partnerships with Boy Scouts

MADISON (WKOW) -- Several Wisconsin churches, including one in our area, are ending long-term partnerships with Boy Scouts troops.

A church in Appleton and one in Janesville are cutting ties with troops. This comes after the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod issued a statement in December, saying it would dissolve its relationship with Boy Scouts of America for its decision to allow openly gay leaders to serve in the organization.

The statement reads, in part:

"..the recent Boy Scouts of America (BSA) adult leadership standards change — effected by the BSA National Executive Board July 10, 2015, that lifted the BSA’s ban on openly gay Scout leaders — caused great concern and has led us formally to dissolve the Memorandum of Understanding (MOU) between The Lutheran Church—Missouri Synod (LCMS) and the BSA. As of Dec. 1, 2015, the LCMS no longer has an official relationship with the BSA.

We deeply appreciate the continued patience of the LCMS as the Office of the President, the Commission on Theology and Church Relations (CTCR), the Synod’s legal counsel and the Office of National Mission spent time examining the LCMS’ history with Scouting, talking with LCMS pastors who are involved in Scouting as well as top leadership of the BSA, considering potential legal issues and looking into alternative Scouting programs. This continues to be no small undertaking."

Churches are just one of many groups that sponsor troops in Wisconsin. They've long held partnerships, offering leadership, a place to meet and sometimes financial support. LCMS advises thousands of churches in the U.S., including many in Wisconsin, but the decision to sponsor scouting has always been left up to the individual churches to decide.

Don Olsen, director of field services for the Glacier's Edge Council in southern Wisconsin, says shortly after LCMS made its decision the council learned a Janesville church was dropping its troop.

"It's always saddening that we have to lose a long-time partner, but they also have their beliefs and desires so we have to respect that and that's fine," Olsen says. "We do have a lot of organizations out there that are willing and happy to help sponsor a unit, so it wasn't that difficult to go and find somebody to take on that responsibility."

There are four Lutheran churches in Janesville in the Missouri synod. 27 News reached out to them for comment on this topic but calls were not returned Friday afternoon.

Olsen says since learning of the decision, the Janesville troop has found a new charter and has moved on. Otherwise, the council hasn't been affected by the Boy Scouts' new policy and Olsen isn't aware of any other partnerships at risk. He says membership and support are still growing.