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ALPB => Your Turn => Topic started by: LutherMan on November 09, 2015, 05:08:17 PM

Title: The holiday that hurts
Post by: LutherMan on November 09, 2015, 05:08:17 PM
   http://wels.net/the-holiday-that-hurts/

The holiday that hurts
2015/10/06/in Newsletter, WELS Nurses news

Written by Rev. Paul C. Ziemer, National Civilian Chaplain to the Military, Armed Forces Liaison of WELS

Veterans Day hurts. It doesn’t cause a sharp pain. It’s more like a series of dull aches that remind one of earlier injuries. Veterans Day makes us think of war, and the pain that war brings. It tells us that a generation of our forefathers was greatly mistaken.

America did not so much jump into World War One as it was pushed in. But once engaged, the country responded with great enthusiasm. Posters were made, songs were written, and laws were passed in support of the war. This is when many Lutheran churches stopped using the German language in worship services and schools.

They said it would be, “The war to end all wars.” So, when the armistice was signed at the 11th hour of the 11th month of 1918, there were those who believed they were seeing the last generation of military veterans. There would be no more war veterans after this, they thought, because there would be no more wars.

It pains us to think how naïve they were. The sons of these same troops would march off to fight over some of the same ground their fathers had once fought for. Sons of World War Two veterans would fly off to battle in some rice paddies in Southeast Asia. Sons and daughters of those veterans would head off to combat in two wars in the Middle East. And, it is not over yet.

One Veterans Day ache makes us recall that thousands upon thousands of young Americans have gone to distant and dangerous places to keep death and danger from our shores. Veterans serve as a reminder of the failure of mankind to end war. It’s a sign of our weakness. This ache comes from disappointment.

Another ache is felt. This one prompts us to realize how rarely many of us think about the sacrifices that others have made to defend our country. It hurts to think that some of our fellow citizens have invested years of their lives; some have sacrificed limbs; some have sacrificed lives—and we seldom appreciate it. We seldom thank those veterans who live among us. This ache comes from regret.

The deepest ache is caused by shame. Beyond everything else, and everyone else, we have neglected to give adequate credit to the One who shields our country from above and beyond. It is he who provided America with the necessary arms and Armed Forces. It is he who gave us the victories (those battles could have so easily been lost). It is he who blessed the efforts of the defenders of freedom. It is shameful for us to boast of our strength.

In the end, the Lord of the Nations is the only source of peace. His armistice was announced over the fields of Bethlehem when he sent the Prince of Peace into the world. The warfare between God and mankind is over. That peace stands forever.

The Veterans Day hurt is a good hurt, however. It prompts us to appreciate those that have served in the Armed Forces of America—and to thank the Lord our God for providing them.

This hurt makes us ache for peace.

 

Title: Re: The holiday that hurts
Post by: Buckeye Deaconess on November 09, 2015, 05:14:58 PM
Thankful for each of you reading who may have served.  Your sacrifice is greatly appreciated.
Title: Re: The holiday that hurts
Post by: LutherMan on November 09, 2015, 05:16:48 PM
Thankful for each of you reading who may have served.  Your sacrifice is greatly appreciated.
Thank you for your service and Thanks to all the Veterans here at ALPB...
Title: Re: The holiday that hurts
Post by: John_Hannah on November 09, 2015, 05:49:59 PM
Well done!

Peace,
JOHN HANNAH
Chaplain (COL-RET) U.S. Army
Title: Re: The holiday that hurts
Post by: John Mundinger on November 09, 2015, 06:01:09 PM
Talk is cheap!  If our nation were serious about honoring those who serve in the military, we would commit to the principles of just war.  Too often we have failed them by failing in that commitment.  Too often, the church has been silent or, worse, complicit, when the nation has gone to war for unjust reasons.
Title: Re: The holiday that hurts
Post by: Eileen Smith on November 09, 2015, 06:19:22 PM
Talk isn't quite that cheap.  Two simple words, "Thank you," can mean the world to someone - making one feel affirmed and appreciated.   In one of Bonhoeffer's books and I believe it is Letters and Papers from Prison, I recall him writing that there is hardly anything that can make us happier than to know we count for something [with another] (paraphrasing here). 

A number of years ago, when we first sent troops to the Mideast after 9/11, one of our MNYS pastors was deployed (he was in the National Guard).  He was sent somewhere in the South (can't quite remember where) and his work was to counsel soldiers returning home and trying to pick up where they left off with their families, their jobs, friends…  He also was the one who would be part of a contingent to bring the news of the death of a loved one.  This pastor wrote letters to his congregation and, though not a member of this congregation, I was privileged to receive these letters.  He told stories of his ministry in such a beautiful way.  Though he was the one who counseled and brought devastating news, he faded into the background of each story and we vividly presented the stories of those to whom he ministered -- so vividly that one felt part of the story and could do nothing but pray for these people.  It occurred to me that he was actually extending his congregation by connecting these men and women to his congregation through prayer.  What a beautiful way to honor their service to our country.

As the daughter of a Marine and wife of a Marine - Semper Fi and thank you. 
Title: Re: The holiday that hurts
Post by: loschwitz on November 09, 2015, 06:32:40 PM
let us not forget

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qOpnRAOxpLE

They shall grow not old, as we that are left grow old:
 Age shall not weary them, nor the years condemn.
 At the going down of the sun and in the morning,
 We will remember them
Title: Re: The holiday that hurts
Post by: pastorg1@aol.com on November 09, 2015, 07:37:55 PM
Thank you for the post.
Title: Re: The holiday that hurts
Post by: Daniel L. Gard on November 09, 2015, 07:51:31 PM
Thank you to all who have served our nation and put your lives on the line for freedom.

May we also remember the unsung heroes who did not wear a uniform but waited and prayed at home - the families of our Sailors, Marines, Soldiers, Airmen and Coast Guardsmen.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xn06ruxh2pA
Title: Re: The holiday that hurts
Post by: Donald_Kirchner on November 09, 2015, 08:24:21 PM
Thank you to all who have served our nation and put your lives on the line for freedom.

May we also remember the unsung heroes who did not wear a uniform but waited and prayed at home - the families of our Sailors, Marines, Soldiers, Airmen and Coast Guardsmen.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xn06ruxh2pA

Well stated, Admiral Gard.

And may God save us from aging hippies who cannot comprehend what this thread is about.

As my father who walked away from Ishimi Ridge in the Battle of Okinawa often said, "The real heroes are those who didn't come home." May those who made the ultimate sacrifice rest safely in His arms.

http://alpb.org/Forum/index.php?topic=5237.msg320488#msg320488
Title: Re: The holiday that hurts
Post by: LutherMan on November 09, 2015, 08:33:03 PM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xn06ruxh2pA


And may God save us from aging hippies who cannot comprehend what this thread is about.
[/quote]Thank you....
Title: Re: The holiday that hurts
Post by: J. Thomas Shelley on November 09, 2015, 08:43:21 PM
Remember also, on the 11th day of November, the veteran soldier-saints of antiquity, especially Martin of Tours.

In the Orthodox Church we remember these soldier-saints at every Orthros:  George the trophy-bearer, Demetrios the mhyrr-streaming, Theodore the recruit and Theodore the General.   And at the most solemn point of the Divine Liturgy, we pray for "the President of the United States and all civil authorities, and for our Armed Forces everywhere [and their families]....may the Lord our God remember them in His Heavenly Kingdom, now and ever and unto ages of ages."
Title: Re: The holiday that hurts
Post by: Bergs on November 09, 2015, 09:09:38 PM
Thank you to all the veterans on the forum.  I am not a veteran.  I am one who is thankful for your service.

Brian J. Bergs
Minneapolis, MN
Title: Re: The holiday that hurts
Post by: Fletch on November 09, 2015, 09:20:30 PM
Thank you to all the veterans on the forum.  I am not a veteran.  I am one who is thankful for your service.

Brian J. Bergs
Minneapolis, MN

+1

I had a very large "number" and thus missed being called for Vietnam.  My grandfathers were both WWI vets, my father was a WWII vet who was wounded severely in Sicily but survived ... thus I was given life when he returned safely.  My uncles also all proudly served in WWII.

... Fletch

Title: Re: The holiday that hurts
Post by: Eileen Smith on November 10, 2015, 08:50:03 AM
Thank you to all who have served our nation and put your lives on the line for freedom.

May we also remember the unsung heroes who did not wear a uniform but waited and prayed at home - the families of our Sailors, Marines, Soldiers, Airmen and Coast Guardsmen.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xn06ruxh2pA

Well stated, Admiral Gard.

And may God save us from aging hippies who cannot comprehend what this thread is about.

As my father who walked away from Ishimi Ridge in the Battle of Okinawa often said, "The real heroes are those who didn't come home." May those who made the ultimate sacrifice rest safely in His arms.

http://alpb.org/Forum/index.php?topic=5237.msg320488#msg320488

Thank you for sharing this memory of your father.  You bring to mind a very loving memory of my dad.  He wrote a short paragraph on WWII in response to an invitation from PBS to WWII veterans.  My dad wrote about coming onshore in Saipan and witnessing so many men dying around him.  He wanted their families to know that they were the real heroes.  These veterans gave such selfless service and many the ultimate sacrifice.   
Title: Re: The holiday that hurts
Post by: RevG on November 10, 2015, 08:57:52 AM
Remember also, on the 11th day of November, the veteran soldier-saints of antiquity, especially Martin of Tours.

In the Orthodox Church we remember these soldier-saints at every Orthros:  George the trophy-bearer, Demetrios the mhyrr-streaming, Theodore the recruit and Theodore the General.   And at the most solemn point of the Divine Liturgy, we pray for "the President of the United States and all civil authorities, and for our Armed Forces everywhere [and their families]....may the Lord our God remember them in His Heavenly Kingdom, now and ever and unto ages of ages."

I feel it important to mention that after a long stint in the military St Martin of Tours stated, "I am a soldier of Christ, I cannot fight." Because of his Christian convictions he refused to shed blood on the battlefield and was deemed a coward and was jailed.  He was willing to go to the frontline of the battle unarmed but peace came and he was released from military service. 

In Christ,
Scott+

Title: Re: The holiday that hurts
Post by: Daniel L. Gard on November 10, 2015, 09:07:26 AM
Thank you to all who have served our nation and put your lives on the line for freedom.

May we also remember the unsung heroes who did not wear a uniform but waited and prayed at home - the families of our Sailors, Marines, Soldiers, Airmen and Coast Guardsmen.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xn06ruxh2pA

Well stated, Admiral Gard.

And may God save us from aging hippies who cannot comprehend what this thread is about.

As my father who walked away from Ishimi Ridge in the Battle of Okinawa often said, "The real heroes are those who didn't come home." May those who made the ultimate sacrifice rest safely in His arms.

http://alpb.org/Forum/index.php?topic=5237.msg320488#msg320488

Thank you for sharing this memory of your father.  You bring to mind a very loving memory of my dad.  He wrote a short paragraph on WWII in response to an invitation from PBS to WWII veterans.  My dad wrote about coming onshore in Saipan and witnessing so many men dying around him.  He wanted their families to know that they were the real heroes.  These veterans gave such selfless service and many the ultimate sacrifice.

Your father served in a battle that is remembered to this day. I had the privilege of serving on USS Saipan (LHA-2) during Operation Iraqi Freedom in 2003. She was decommissioned in 2007. There was another USS Saipan - CVL-48, decommissioned in 1970. Will there be a third? If so, may God protect all who sail on her!
Title: Re: The holiday that hurts
Post by: Daniel L. Gard on November 10, 2015, 09:12:29 AM
Those who post in criticism of others who serve as warriors or in criticism of our nation's commitment to the defense of freedom make me smile. This is what those elite few who have worn the uniform and their families have sacrificed so much to preserve - our precious freedom of speech. Keep exercising it! It means that what my shipmates have done was not done in vain.
Title: Re: The holiday that hurts
Post by: Terry W Culler on November 10, 2015, 09:35:56 AM
I am a veteran and I served two tours in Viet Nam.  It was a waste of effort, money and 50,000 American lives, not counting dead Australians, Koreans and Vietnamese.  I can't forget how our country went to war with little thought and fought with no realizable goal.  People say thank you for your service, and I suppose that's nice, but I can't help but say that my experience and those of thousands of others did nothing for the safety of the United States or the protection of its freedoms.  Our nation has taken upon itself the role of policeman of the world and not only is that not sustainable, it is arrogant and counterproductive--just look at how well things are turning out in Iraq.

We all serve a King who taught us to turn the other cheek and walk the extra mile.  If anyone really wants to honor veterans, please teach America to do what the Lord says, so we will have no more dead boys in far away places for ill defined reasons and the glorification of some idolatrous version of patriotism.
Title: Re: The holiday that hurts
Post by: Team Hesse on November 10, 2015, 09:40:11 AM
Talk is cheap!  If our nation were serious about honoring those who serve in the military, we would commit to the principles of just war.  Too often we have failed them by failing in that commitment.  Too often, the church has been silent or, worse, complicit, when the nation has gone to war for unjust reasons.


Veterans day is also a day to remember those who have been wounded and scarred in service to our fallen "best efforts" in seeking justice and peace in the world. When such pain is clearly evident as it is in this response, it is best to remember the only true consolation  of the nations and peoples comes through the work of Jesus taking away sin forever to be remembered no more. "The only solution to the absolute is the absolution". Sins are forgiven for Jesus sake, John.... this means you! Let go of the pain that vexes you. It must not dominate your life. Jesus is Lord, not your pain.


Lou
Title: Re: The holiday that hurts
Post by: Team Hesse on November 10, 2015, 09:53:56 AM
I am a veteran and I served two tours in Viet Nam.  It was a waste of effort, money and 50,000 American lives, not counting dead Australians, Koreans and Vietnamese.  I can't forget how our country went to war with little thought and fought with no realizable goal.  People say thank you for your service, and I suppose that's nice, but I can't help but say that my experience and those of thousands of others did nothing for the safety of the United States or the protection of its freedoms.  Our nation has taken upon itself the role of policeman of the world and not only is that not sustainable, it is arrogant and counterproductive--just look at how well things are turning out in Iraq.

We all serve a King who taught us to turn the other cheek and walk the extra mile.  If anyone really wants to honor veterans, please teach America to do what the Lord says, so we will have no more dead boys in far away places for ill defined reasons and the glorification of some idolatrous version of patriotism.


Fair and truly stated Pastor Culler. I, too, reckon we have overdone our role as "Blessed to be a blessing" in the world....but by the same token the world was ill-served by our xenophobic isolationism between the wars. Like it or not we came out of WWII the pre-eminent power in the world economically, militarily, and politically; a role which had belonged to the British Empire from at least 1815 on until it became ours. Have we done as well as the British did in their time of preeminence? It is really difficult to say because the challenges and context is so different. But we are finally vexed by the question of the leadership thrust upon us, "who would you rather see as "cop" in the world?" There has always been a nation in that role--we may wish it were not so, but it is what it is.


Lou
Title: Re: The holiday that hurts
Post by: peterm on November 10, 2015, 10:57:18 AM
My father served in the Navy for 26+ years, most of that as a reserve dentist.  He was not active in Viet Nam, but was called to active duty during Desert Storm.  Each year on Veterans Day for the past 5 years my kids have invited him to their school to have lunch and attend the program there.  He has told me more than once how meaningful that is for him.

I cannot serve, due to a physical disability but I appreciate those answer that call and add my thanks, for what its worth.  May God hasten the day when such service is not necessary.
Title: Re: The holiday that hurts
Post by: Donald_Kirchner on November 10, 2015, 01:28:29 PM
Remember also, on the 11th day of November, the veteran soldier-saints of antiquity, especially Martin of Tours.

In the Orthodox Church we remember these soldier-saints at every Orthros:  George the trophy-bearer, Demetrios the mhyrr-streaming, Theodore the recruit and Theodore the General.   And at the most solemn point of the Divine Liturgy, we pray for "the President of the United States and all civil authorities, and for our Armed Forces everywhere [and their families]....may the Lord our God remember them in His Heavenly Kingdom, now and ever and unto ages of ages."

I feel it important to mention that after a long stint in the military St Martin of Tours stated, "I am a soldier of Christ, I cannot fight." Because of his Christian convictions he refused to shed blood on the battlefield and was deemed a coward and was jailed.  He was willing to go to the frontline of the battle unarmed but peace came and he was released from military service. 

In Christ,
Scott+

You "feel" it's important to a thread on Veteran's Day and honoring those who served...why?
Title: Re: The holiday that hurts
Post by: LutherMan on November 10, 2015, 02:15:42 PM
God Bless all our Vets and Military families...
Title: Re: The holiday that hurts
Post by: LutherMan on November 10, 2015, 03:14:20 PM
Quote
Written by Rev. Paul C. Ziemer, National Civilian Chaplain to the Military, Armed Forces Liaison of WELS

I was under the understanding that WELS opposes chaplains...
Title: Re: The holiday that hurts
Post by: John_Hannah on November 10, 2015, 03:29:22 PM
Right, Craig. Notice that he is described as a civilian chaplain.

Peace, JOHN
Title: Re: The holiday that hurts
Post by: LutherMan on November 10, 2015, 04:34:42 PM
Right, Craig. Notice that he is described as a civilian chaplain.

Peace, JOHN
Whatever that means...
Title: Re: The holiday that hurts
Post by: Charles Austin on November 10, 2015, 04:50:12 PM
They also serve who choose not to fight. But we have no day to honor their commitment and sacrifice.
Title: Re: The holiday that hurts
Post by: Dave Likeness on November 10, 2015, 05:12:02 PM
As the son of a WWII veteran, I have much appreciation for
the risk the military takes in battle.  My father served under
General George Patton in the Tank Corps and was honored
to serve his country.   

My father was the son of two Norwegians who came to America
and had 6 children.  My grandfather was a baker and my grandmother
was a housewife.  They instilled in their family an attitude of gratitude
for being able to live in America.

Veterans Day is about the military men and women who served their
country out of loyalty.  May we never forget the sacrifices they made
to keep us safe.
Title: Re: The holiday that hurts
Post by: Steverem on November 10, 2015, 05:34:44 PM
They also serve who choose not to fight. But we have no day to honor their commitment and sacrifice.

Genuinely curious - of what "sacrifice" do you refer?  If they served in military non-combatant roles, then Veterans' Day is such a day.  If not, then I'm not sure what kind of holiday you're envisioning.  I mean, I pay my taxes, vote, salute the flag - but I'm not going to put that "sacrifice" on a par with those who put themselves in harm's way on my behalf, and I'm certainly not going to lobby for a holiday just so I can feel appreciated.

Tell you what, Charles - why don't you suggest such a holiday, and we'll run it up the flagpole and see who salutes, so to speak.
Title: Re: The holiday that hurts
Post by: LutherMan on November 10, 2015, 06:14:00 PM
My father was at Pearl Harbor during the war, and my four eldest brothers also served in the Navy during the sixties...
Title: Re: The holiday that hurts
Post by: Daniel L. Gard on November 10, 2015, 07:57:57 PM
My father was at Pearl Harbor during the war, and my four eldest brothers also served in the Navy during the sixties...

Your family has given a great gift to the rest of us. I finally got to visit Pearl Harbor this year and felt unworthy to follow in the steps of those heroes.
Title: Re: The holiday that hurts
Post by: Daniel L. Gard on November 10, 2015, 08:03:31 PM
Right, Craig. Notice that he is described as a civilian chaplain.

Peace, JOHN
Whatever that means...

WELS does not send chaplains into the military. They can still provide ministry to WELS personnel through their civilian pastors but, other than that, they are very limited.

Military chaplains wear the uniform and go forward with the people they serve. Even as I freely write this on the internet, military chaplains are out there around the world caring for our service members and their families. If their people go into harms way, the unarmed chaplain goes with them. Military chaplains are the only clergy who have that privilege and blessing.
Title: Re: The holiday that hurts
Post by: LutherMan on November 10, 2015, 08:07:09 PM
To the chaplains here:  Have you ever had a WELSian place you in charge of his spiritual care?
Title: Re: The holiday that hurts
Post by: Daniel L. Gard on November 10, 2015, 08:29:20 PM
To the chaplains here:  Have you ever had a WELSian place you in charge of his spiritual care?

Yes. I have reminded them of the position of their own Synod and that I am LCMS and bound to my own commitments to faithfully represent my Synod.
Title: Re: The holiday that hurts
Post by: Daniel L. Gard on November 10, 2015, 08:38:24 PM
They also serve who choose not to fight. But we have no day to honor their commitment and sacrifice.

I respect their commitment to their principles. But the sacrifice has been made by those who defend America and risk their lives so that others may be free to follow their commitments.  When someone has to notify a widow that her husband has died as a result of his decision not to fight, like I have done too many times for Marines and Sailors who have died in the service of their country, then I might agree that they need a day to honor them.



Title: Re: The holiday that hurts
Post by: LutherMan on November 10, 2015, 08:50:44 PM
To the chaplains here:  Have you ever had a WELSian place you in charge of his spiritual care?

Yes. I have reminded them of the position of their own Synod and that I am LCMS and bound to my own commitments to faithfully represent my Synod.

Thank God.  I have always wondered if WELSians seek out faithful LCMS chaplains.  Do you commune them?
Title: Re: The holiday that hurts
Post by: Daniel L. Gard on November 10, 2015, 09:01:27 PM
To the chaplains here:  Have you ever had a WELSian place you in charge of his spiritual care?

Yes. I have reminded them of the position of their own Synod and that I am LCMS and bound to my own commitments to faithfully represent my Synod.

Thank God.  I have always wondered if WELSians seek out faithful LCMS chaplains.  Do you commune them?

I commune those with whom I am in fellowship - just like any LCMS pastor. Yet there are cases of responsible individual pastoral care and, while I cannot go into detail, a Marine about to offload from the ship and go into combat will hunger and thirst for the Sacrament. So might a young warrior stuck with me at Guantanamo for 9 months without a break and who faces daily threats from the detainees he or she must guard. So, yes - while it is rare, it has happened.
Title: Re: The holiday that hurts
Post by: LutherMan on November 10, 2015, 09:11:05 PM
To the chaplains here:  Have you ever had a WELSian place you in charge of his spiritual care?

Yes. I have reminded them of the position of their own Synod and that I am LCMS and bound to my own commitments to faithfully represent my Synod.

Thank God.  I have always wondered if WELSians seek out faithful LCMS chaplains.  Do you commune them?

I commune those with whom I am in fellowship - just like any LCMS pastor. Yet there are cases of responsible individual pastoral care and, while I cannot go into detail, a Marine about to offload from the ship and go into combat will hunger and thirst for the Sacrament. So might a young warrior stuck with me at Guantanamo for 9 months without a break and who faces daily threats from the detainees he or she must guard. So, yes - while it is rare, it has happened.

Thank you and God Bless you Dr. Gard.  You are a saint along with being chief of sinners...
Title: Re: The holiday that hurts
Post by: Steven W Bohler on November 10, 2015, 09:41:09 PM
Right, Craig. Notice that he is described as a civilian chaplain.

Peace, JOHN
Whatever that means...

WELS does not send chaplains into the military. They can still provide ministry to WELS personnel through their civilian pastors but, other than that, they are very limited.

Military chaplains wear the uniform and go forward with the people they serve. Even as I freely write this on the internet, military chaplains are out there around the world caring for our service members and their families. If their people go into harms way, the unarmed chaplain goes with them. Military chaplains are the only clergy who have that privilege and blessing.

Just curious: Are chaplains forbidden to be armed in such settings?
Title: Re: The holiday that hurts
Post by: Daniel L. Gard on November 10, 2015, 09:48:23 PM
Right, Craig. Notice that he is described as a civilian chaplain.

Peace, JOHN
Whatever that means...

WELS does not send chaplains into the military. They can still provide ministry to WELS personnel through their civilian pastors but, other than that, they are very limited.

Military chaplains wear the uniform and go forward with the people they serve. Even as I freely write this on the internet, military chaplains are out there around the world caring for our service members and their families. If their people go into harms way, the unarmed chaplain goes with them. Military chaplains are the only clergy who have that privilege and blessing.

Just curious: Are chaplains forbidden to be armed in such settings?

We are non-combatants according to the Geneva Convention. So we do not carry a weapon. We are assigned an armed enlisted person charged with protecting the chaplain.
Title: Re: The holiday that hurts
Post by: J.L. Precup on November 10, 2015, 09:52:57 PM
Chaplains are non-combatants...so they are never armed.

As for communing other Lutherans, yes...that is how the LCMS chaplain guidelines are written (or at least they were).  Usually, WELS Lutherans would tell me what they could not do.  I would simply invite them to do as much during worship as they could.  After a few weeks without saying anything more, more than a few would commune.
Title: Re: The holiday that hurts
Post by: Charles Austin on November 10, 2015, 10:50:49 PM
No, I'm not going to suggest a holiday to honor those who serve by refusing military service. Nor do I expect many to understand what kinds of "sacrifices" they make. May appropriate blessings and honors go to those who put on uniforms and pick up weapons in service of our country. But they are not the only ones who serve us. Nor are they the only ones who sacrifice.
Title: Re: The holiday that hurts
Post by: Dan Fienen on November 10, 2015, 11:33:46 PM
No, I'm not going to suggest a holiday to honor those who serve by refusing military service. Nor do I expect many to understand what kinds of "sacrifices" they make. May appropriate blessings and honors go to those who put on uniforms and pick up weapons in service of our country. But they are not the only ones who serve us. Nor are they the only ones who sacrifice.
Could you suggest a prayer that would be appropriate to include with the prayers for veterans and those still in the military?
Title: Re: The holiday that hurts
Post by: Richard Johnson on November 10, 2015, 11:37:51 PM
I would think a prayer for "service men and women, veterans, and all who work for peace" might do the trick.
Title: Re: The holiday that hurts
Post by: LutherMan on November 10, 2015, 11:40:48 PM
Chaplains are non-combatants...so they are never armed.

As for communing other Lutherans, yes...that is how the LCMS chaplain guidelines are written (or at least they were).  Usually, WELS Lutherans would tell me what they could not do.  I would simply invite them to do as much during worship as they could.  After a few weeks without saying anything more, more than a few would commune.
God Bless you for caring for them.  I appreciate it and thank you...
Title: Re: The holiday that hurts
Post by: Steverem on November 10, 2015, 11:54:13 PM
No, I'm not going to suggest a holiday to honor those who serve by refusing military service. Nor do I expect many to understand what kinds of "sacrifices" they make. May appropriate blessings and honors go to those who put on uniforms and pick up weapons in service of our country. But they are not the only ones who serve us. Nor are they the only ones who sacrifice.

Refusing military service is, by definition, not serving.  They might be wonderful folks, make a great old fashioned, volunteer at the local animal shelter ... but service and sacrifice aren't exactly their things.  And to downplay a day dedicated to those who do serve and sacrifice to an amazing degree because you don't want to leave these folks out is, charitably, misguided.
Title: Re: The holiday that hurts
Post by: Dan Fienen on November 11, 2015, 12:03:05 AM
No, I'm not going to suggest a holiday to honor those who serve by refusing military service. Nor do I expect many to understand what kinds of "sacrifices" they make. May appropriate blessings and honors go to those who put on uniforms and pick up weapons in service of our country. But they are not the only ones who serve us. Nor are they the only ones who sacrifice.
I am reminded of the closing banquet scene of the first Harry Potter movie when Dumbledore is handing out last minute house points for Herminoe, Ron and Harry for saving the day.  He also awards points to Neville Longbottom because, "It takes a great deal of bravery to stand up to your enemies, but it takes even more to stand up to your friends."  He is referring to the time earlier when Neville tries to stop Herminoe, Ron and Harry from going out after hours to save the day because it would be breaking the rules.


It is far too easy to dismiss those who conscientiously object to going to war as cowards.  We need their voices to remind us that war should be a last resort, undertaken reluctantly and with stringent limits.


But it is also far too easy to dismiss those who take up arms in service to their country as simply bully boys (and girls) and blood thirsty barbarians.  Contrary to the opinion popular among some, it does not take two to start a war and sometimes aggression must be met with force because that is the only language that aggressors may understand.
Title: Re: The holiday that hurts
Post by: Charles Austin on November 11, 2015, 04:22:12 AM
steverem writes:
Refusing military service is, by definition, not serving.
I comment:
No, it is not serving in uniform or with a weapon. There are other ways to serve your country.

steverem writes:
They might be wonderful folks, make a great old fashioned, volunteer at the local animal shelter ... but service and sacrifice aren't exactly their things.
I comment:
Again, you are limiting what constitutes "serving." I am grateful for those willing to go to war for our nation. I am also grateful for those who witness to pacifism (although I am not a total pacifist). And these people do sacrifice, if not the sacrifice of life and limb. They sacrifice their "standing" in some communities, often their jobs and friends or even family. There may be financial consequences to their refusal to serve and pacifists have gone to prison as part of their witness. To go against prevailing social and political attitudes quite often involves sacrifice.

steverem writes:
And to downplay a day dedicated to those who do serve and sacrifice to an amazing degree because you don't want to leave these folks out is, charitably, misguided.
I comment:
Did you not read what I posted? I do not downplay Veterans' Day and I believe that all appropriate honor should be given to those who have in good conscience and honorably worn the uniform of our armed services. I only note - as I often do on Memorial Day, Veterans' Day and the Fourth of July - that service to our nation can be given in other ways.
Title: Re: The holiday that hurts
Post by: Fletch on November 11, 2015, 06:50:12 AM
It seems to me that those who serve in the military do sacrafice - mainly for the benefit of others.

It seems to me that those who refuse to serve in the military (other than for religious reasons) do sacrafice - mainly for the benefit of themselves. 


... Fletch
Title: Re: The holiday that hurts
Post by: John_Hannah on November 11, 2015, 07:45:57 AM
To the chaplains here:  Have you ever had a WELSian place you in charge of his spiritual care?

I always had WELS members at the Lutheran Services I conducted in Army chapels. Just as there were always ELCA [(and predecessors) and even some LCMS.   :)

Peace, JOHN
Title: Re: The holiday that hurts
Post by: Charles Austin on November 11, 2015, 08:18:54 AM
Fletch writes:
It seems to me that those who refuse to serve in the military (other than for religious reasons) do sacrafice - mainly for the benefit of themselves.

I comment:
Yeah, sure, they are just selfish or masochists.
And since we do not have a draft, you can refuse to serve in the military for any damn reason you want. If you make your pacifist beliefs known, you are likely to suffer a little. But if you choose not to serve because you want to make more money, spend time with your family, or because you don't like the color of the uniforms, people probably won't say much to you.
And if you volunteer as a civilian to go overseas to a war zone or a dangerous part of the world and provide medical care, education or help to refugees, there will probably not be a parade, a banner across main street or a beer bash at the Legion hall when you return. Furthermore, should you be injured or killed because of your voluntary efforts, you and your family are pretty much on your own; no VA hospital or government pension.
Title: Re: The holiday that hurts
Post by: Donald_Kirchner on November 11, 2015, 08:29:06 AM
Fletch writes:
It seems to me that those who refuse to serve in the military (other than for religious reasons) do sacrafice - mainly for the benefit of themselves.

I comment:
Yeah, sure, they are just selfish or masochists.
And since we do not have a draft, you can refuse to serve in the military for any damn reason you want. If you make your pacifist beliefs known, you are likely to suffer a little. But if you choose not to serve because you want to make more money, spend time with your family, or because you don't like the color of the uniforms, people probably won't say much to you.
And if you volunteer as a civilian to go overseas to a war zone or a dangerous part of the world and provide medical care, education or help to refugees, there will probably not be a parade, a banner across main street or a beer bash at the Legion hall when you return. Furthermore, should you be injured or killed because of your voluntary efforts, you and your family are pretty much on your own; no VA hospital or government pension.

Charles, on this Veteran's Day what is your point?
Title: Re: The holiday that hurts
Post by: Steverem on November 11, 2015, 08:53:10 AM
steverem writes:
Refusing military service is, by definition, not serving.
I comment:
No, it is not serving in uniform or with a weapon. There are other ways to serve your country.

steverem writes:
They might be wonderful folks, make a great old fashioned, volunteer at the local animal shelter ... but service and sacrifice aren't exactly their things.
I comment:
Again, you are limiting what constitutes "serving." I am grateful for those willing to go to war for our nation. I am also grateful for those who witness to pacifism (although I am not a total pacifist). And these people do sacrifice, if not the sacrifice of life and limb. They sacrifice their "standing" in some communities, often their jobs and friends or even family. There may be financial consequences to their refusal to serve and pacifists have gone to prison as part of their witness. To go against prevailing social and political attitudes quite often involves sacrifice.

steverem writes:
And to downplay a day dedicated to those who do serve and sacrifice to an amazing degree because you don't want to leave these folks out is, charitably, misguided.
I comment:
Did you not read what I posted? I do not downplay Veterans' Day and I believe that all appropriate honor should be given to those who have in good conscience and honorably worn the uniform of our armed services. I only note - as I often do on Memorial Day, Veterans' Day and the Fourth of July - that service to our nation can be given in other ways.

The fact that you feel compelled, every single time military service is brought up, to mention those who haven't served as such belies your claim.  It would be as if I, every time someone mentioned Martin Luther King, Jr. Day, felt the need to say, "You know, there are a lot of white people who contributed to this country too, and they don't have a holiday to recognize their accomplishments."  You would most likely (and correctly) feel that I have some racist tendencies, or at the very least that I have some degree of animus toward Dr. King.  And with your statements comes at least a whiff that you believe the decision to not serve is a morally superior one.

In this case, "all appropriate honor" means saying, "Thank you for your service," and not following it up with, "But, you know, there are others ..."
Title: Re: The holiday that hurts
Post by: John Mundinger on November 11, 2015, 09:13:06 AM
Those who post in criticism of others who serve as warriors or in criticism of our nation's commitment to the defense of freedom make me smile. This is what those elite few who have worn the uniform and their families have sacrificed so much to preserve - our precious freedom of speech. Keep exercising it! It means that what my shipmates have done was not done in vain.

I am not critical of those who serve as warriors.  I am critical of those who send them to war, especially when they do so on false pretenses.  And, I am critical of the church when the church supports - if only by silence - our country when it sends our uniformed personnel into war on false pretenses.  E.g. Pr. Cullers post.

If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.  But, if we confess our sins, God is faithful and just and will forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Title: Re: The holiday that hurts
Post by: D. Engebretson on November 11, 2015, 09:27:17 AM
Those who post in criticism of others who serve as warriors or in criticism of our nation's commitment to the defense of freedom make me smile. This is what those elite few who have worn the uniform and their families have sacrificed so much to preserve - our precious freedom of speech. Keep exercising it! It means that what my shipmates have done was not done in vain.

I am not critical of those who serve as warriors.  I am critical of those who send them to war, especially when they do so on false pretenses.  And, I am critical of the church when the church supports - if only by silence - our country when it sends our uniformed personnel into war on false pretenses.  E.g. Pr. Cullers post.

If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.  But, if we confess our sins, God is faithful and just and will forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

As with anyone in leadership it is easy to find points to criticize.  Given the chance we would have always done it differently. From our vantage point the truth is always clearer.  Yet under the pressure of constantly changing geo-political crises decisions are made to respond to various realities, many of which you and I cannot fully appreciate given the backseat where we are.  No leader is totally objective.  Their own biases and desires creep in to the decision-making process. And once in the whole machinery can easily become rutted in one direction and fail to course-correct.  That said, would you and I do any better - overall?  And when the concept of "just war" is raised, who is to decide when a given conflict is "just"?  Who sets the standards?  Or is the "just" war no war at all?  Is the highest ideal isolation? 
Title: Re: The holiday that hurts
Post by: John Mundinger on November 11, 2015, 09:46:46 AM
As with anyone in leadership it is easy to find points to criticize.  Given the chance we would have always done it differently. From our vantage point the truth is always clearer.  Yet under the pressure of constantly changing geo-political crises decisions are made to respond to various realities, many of which you and I cannot fully appreciate given the backseat where we are.  No leader is totally objective.  Their own biases and desires creep in to the decision-making process. And once in the whole machinery can easily become rutted in one direction and fail to course-correct.  That said, would you and I do any better - overall?  And when the concept of "just war" is raised, who is to decide when a given conflict is "just"?  Who sets the standards?  Or is the "just" war no war at all?  Is the highest ideal isolation?

That logic does not apply to either Vietnam or Iraq.  We had plenty of opportunity to know better and intentionally chose to ignore the information that contradicted the hawks.

The concept of "just war" is rooted in Christian theology.  The Church has the capacity to articulate the concept and speak to its application to current events.  Where was that voice?
Title: Re: The holiday that hurts
Post by: Buckeye Deaconess on November 11, 2015, 09:49:32 AM
And if you volunteer as a civilian to go overseas to a war zone or a dangerous part of the world and provide medical care, education or help to refugees, there will probably not be a parade, a banner across main street or a beer bash at the Legion hall when you return. Furthermore, should you be injured or killed because of your voluntary efforts, you and your family are pretty much on your own; no VA hospital or government pension.

Then petition your politicians for the creation of a Green Peace Veterans day.  For God's sake, it is one day to honor those who have served and sacrificed for the sake of their country . . . a pledge they made to sacrifice life and limb for their countrymen.  What other national organization requires that type of oath?  And not all veterans have historically come home to the welcome you describe.  Because of the shameful "welcome" received by Vietnam vets, people like me were welcomed home from Desert Storm with much pomp and ceremony.  Those Vietnam vets who were spit on and called all sorts of horrible names knew all too well what that betrayal felt like and collectively said, "Never again!"  Even if you don't agree with the decisions of your country's leadership, sacrifice and service means doing your job . . . what you are bound by your oath to do.  Those who serve under the banner of Christ have to especially wrestle with all sorts of moral issues to do so . . . diminishing the importance of their service is most unhelpful.

Thank you to those of you who understand and appreciate the sort of sacrifice required of those who have served and continue to serve in our nation's military.
Title: Re: The holiday that hurts
Post by: D. Engebretson on November 11, 2015, 09:55:43 AM
As with anyone in leadership it is easy to find points to criticize.  Given the chance we would have always done it differently. From our vantage point the truth is always clearer.  Yet under the pressure of constantly changing geo-political crises decisions are made to respond to various realities, many of which you and I cannot fully appreciate given the backseat where we are.  No leader is totally objective.  Their own biases and desires creep in to the decision-making process. And once in the whole machinery can easily become rutted in one direction and fail to course-correct.  That said, would you and I do any better - overall?  And when the concept of "just war" is raised, who is to decide when a given conflict is "just"?  Who sets the standards?  Or is the "just" war no war at all?  Is the highest ideal isolation?

That logic does not apply to either Vietnam or Iraq.  We had plenty of opportunity to know better and intentionally chose to ignore the information that contradicted the hawks.

The concept of "just war" is rooted in Christian theology.  The Church has the capacity to articulate the concept and speak to its application to current events.  Where was that voice?

Without getting into an overall debate about the merits or lack thereof of those wars, what do you suspect might have been the outcome of non-intervention?  Admittedly Vietnam eventually fell to the Communists and Iraq has destabilized a lot in the last few years.  Still, the failures at the end of either of these wars are not necessarily due to poor decisions at the beginning.  Not a little failure comes from political intervention that contributes to a destabilizing that forces on the ground cannot control.  Wars are not fought by the military alone.  It is a mixture of military and political.  In the end, who do we blame? 

As to the concept of "just war," what definition do you prefer?
Title: Re: The holiday that hurts
Post by: John Mundinger on November 11, 2015, 10:36:30 AM
Without getting into an overall debate about the merits or lack thereof of those wars, what do you suspect might have been the outcome of non-intervention?  Admittedly Vietnam eventually fell to the Communists and Iraq has destabilized a lot in the last few years.  Still, the failures at the end of either of these wars are not necessarily due to poor decisions at the beginning.  Not a little failure comes from political intervention that contributes to a destabilizing that forces on the ground cannot control.  Wars are not fought by the military alone.  It is a mixture of military and political.  In the end, who do we blame? 

It is not a question of non-intervention, but a matter of how we choose to engage.

Vietnam fell to the Communists, but none of the predicted consequences of that fall resulted.  In fact, just the opposite.  Vietnam is now a trading partner.  We had the opportunity to side with Ho Chi Minh in Vietnam's civil war.  We chose not too.  But, doing so would have made a lot of sense because we should have factored in the long-standing adversarial relationship between Vietnam and China.

Many knowledgeable people predicted the kind of instability that currently exists in the Arab world as a consequence of our decision to invade Iraq.  And, when you think about it in the context of the history of the region, their arguments made a lot of sense.  Yet, those voices were ignored and the people who made such arguments were demonized as un-patriotic.

It's not so much a matter of bad decisions, but a matter of decisions that resulted from bad decision making.  War is serious business and the decision to go to war should be deliberative.  In the case of both Vietnam and Iraq, the decisions were made to go to war and the only deliberation was that related to making up excuses to justify the decision.  So, who do I blame?  The administration, congress, and the media and the electorate for failing to hold the administration and congress accountable.  I also think the church is at fault for its silence. 

As to the concept of "just war," what definition do you prefer?

Saint Augustine's would be a good place to start.  In practice, I think the following are applicable:

1.  Response to a very real threat.
2.  Response to a threat that is not a reaction to our provocation.
3.  Armed conflict as a last resort.
4.  A response that is proportional to the threat.

Neither Iraq nor Vietnam satisfied any of those criteria.
Title: Re: The holiday that hurts
Post by: John Mundinger on November 11, 2015, 10:39:31 AM
Yet there are cases of responsible individual pastoral care and, while I cannot go into detail, a Marine about to offload from the ship and go into combat will hunger and thirst for the Sacrament. So might a young warrior stuck with me at Guantanamo for 9 months without a break and who faces daily threats from the detainees he or she must guard. So, yes - while it is rare, it has happened.

Luther argues, in his explanation of the Sacrament, that all those who believe the promise and hunger and thirst for the Sacrament should be encouraged to commune.  It would follow that responsible pastoral care necessarily means communing all such persons, irrespective of either the other circumstances of affiliation.
Title: Re: The holiday that hurts
Post by: Donald_Kirchner on November 11, 2015, 10:45:01 AM
I am not critical of those who serve as warriors.  I am critical of those who send them to war, especially when they do so on false pretenses. 

Uh huh, that's why there were those in your generation who spit on the soldiers and called them "Baby killers!" and worse when they came home.

It's Veteran's Day, Mr. Mundinger. And that's what this thread is about. Here's your chance to show some respect.
Title: Re: The holiday that hurts
Post by: John Mundinger on November 11, 2015, 11:04:18 AM
Uh huh, that's why there were those in your generation who spit on the soldiers and called them "Baby killers!" and worse when they came home.

Been there, done that and got the "road guard badge" (and a good measure of that saliva).  What's on your DD-214?

It's Veteran's Day, Mr. Mundinger. And that's what this thread is about. Here's your chance to show some respect.

I am!  Yellow ribbon and happy talk are nothing more that salve for the consciences of those who turn a blind eye to the reality that we are more than willing to send our military into armed conflict on false pretenses and then discard them when they return home.

Following the defeat of the Spanish armada, the British king refused to allow his navy to return home because he did not want to pay the sailors for their service.  Throughout history, veterans have been treated that way and we aren't much better.  Veterans are disproportionately represented among our homeless and we refuse to deliver on the promise of other veterans benefits.  If you want to celebrate this day in a meaningful way, speak out about such atrocities!
Title: Re: The holiday that hurts
Post by: Terry W Culler on November 11, 2015, 11:12:37 AM
I am not critical of those who serve as warriors.  I am critical of those who send them to war, especially when they do so on false pretenses. 

Uh huh, that's why there were those in your generation who spit on the soldiers and called them "Baby killers!" and worse when they came home.

It's Veteran's Day, Mr. Mundinger. And that's what this thread is about. Here's your chance to show some respect.

Don: don't overplay that hostility card.  I never had anyone mistreat me in any way when I appeared in public in uniform.  I even got free coffee every now and then in diners.  Most people weren't hostile to the GIs, they were indifferent.  Now we have an opposite effect, generated in part, I believe, by remorse over how GIs and vets were treated back then.  All military veterans are not good people even in a secular sense.  Some of them are down right dangerous because war brings out into the forefront things that we really work to stuff down deep inside and some find that they like that rush they get from doing things society dislikes.  You can't shoot people unless your Mr. Hyde is let loose.  But John is right about governments that think Clausewitz was right, war is just another form of politics.  We send people into harms way, asking them to do horrendous things, and we do it with no clear view of why or what we expect to get out of it or when.  Then we take on a bunch of bromides about democracy or freedom or whatever.  The only veterans alive today who went to war in the "right" way are 90 years old or those few of fought early in Afghanistan. The rest of us, well saying thank you for your service just doesn't make up for it all.
Title: Re: The holiday that hurts
Post by: Donald_Kirchner on November 11, 2015, 11:17:44 AM
In this case, "all appropriate honor" means saying, "Thank you for your service," and not following it up with, "But..."

Try it today, guys, and tout your agenda tomorrow.
Title: Re: The holiday that hurts
Post by: Charles Austin on November 11, 2015, 11:18:08 AM
Pastor Kirchner writes:
Charles, on this Veteran's Day what is your point?
I comment:
My point is that we should honor our military veterans. And BTW, if we truly honor them and care for them, then explain to me why it is necessary to have private fund-raising efforts like the Wounded Warrior Project to get disabled veterans what they need to live useful and comfortable lives after their military service? See what Mr. Mundinger says just upstream.
My local newspaper has an Op-Ed article today by a veteran who says he is tired of the "honor" and would rather be honored by having our country take a closer look at the reasons we send people into danger and whether it is the right thing to do.

The deaconess writes:
Then petition your politicians for the creation of a Green Peace Veterans day.  For God's sake, it is one day to honor those who have served and sacrificed for the sake of their country . . . a pledge they made to sacrifice life and limb for their countrymen.
I comment:
Maybe. But we do the same on July Fourth and on Memorial Day. That makes it three days.

The deaconess writes:
What other national organization requires that type of oath?  And not all veterans have historically come home to the welcome you describe.  Because of the shameful "welcome" received by Vietnam vets, people like me were welcomed home from Desert Storm with much pomp and ceremony.
I comment:
Those who disparaged the service of Vietnam vets were wrong to do so. And since apparently Desert Storm and subsequent conflicts apparently haven't "won" anything or brought peace, maybe the pomp and ceremony should have been re-directed as anger and calls for reform aimed at the people who sent you over there.

The deaconess writes:
Even if you don't agree with the decisions of your country's leadership, sacrifice and service means doing your job . . . what you are bound by your oath to do.
I comment:
Not always. Sometimes it means recognizing a higher power than the one to which you swore the oath.

The deaconess writes:
Those who serve under the banner of Christ have to especially wrestle with all sorts of moral issues to do so . . . diminishing the importance of their service is most unhelpful.
I comment:
Yes, indeed. And I do not diminish the importance of their service.
Title: Re: The holiday that hurts
Post by: Buckeye Deaconess on November 11, 2015, 11:38:36 AM
And I do not diminish the importance of their service.

But you do.  Because you fail to recognize it does not change the fact that you do.  One day.  I think you can handle it. 
Title: Re: The holiday that hurts
Post by: Charles Austin on November 11, 2015, 11:40:11 AM
Then we disagree, deaconess, and you can handle it if I say you are over-emphasizing and over-valuing their service.
Title: Re: The holiday that hurts
Post by: Buckeye Deaconess on November 11, 2015, 11:42:14 AM
Don: don't overplay that hostility card. 

Those are the stories my uncles described to me, as well as the stories many veterans from that era who I have served have described.  It is not overplayed one bit.  Kent State, Jane Fonda anyone?
Title: Re: The holiday that hurts
Post by: Buckeye Deaconess on November 11, 2015, 11:43:57 AM
Then we disagree, deaconess, and you can handle it if I say you are over-emphasizing and over-valuing their service.

What's on your DD-214?
Title: Re: The holiday that hurts
Post by: D. Engebretson on November 11, 2015, 11:47:49 AM
Vietnam fell to the Communists, but none of the predicted consequences of that fall resulted.  In fact, just the opposite.  Vietnam is now a trading partner.  We had the opportunity to side with Ho Chi Minh in Vietnam's civil war.  We chose not too.  But, doing so would have made a lot of sense because we should have factored in the long-standing adversarial relationship between Vietnam and China.

You have forgotten that in the 10 years after the end of the war 1–2.5 million South Vietnamese were sent to reeducation camps, with an estimated 165,000 prisoners dying.  Between 65,000 and 250,000 South Vietnamese were executed.  Add to this the millions executed and murdered by Pol Pot in Cambodia. During my youth I watched the Lutheran church help in resettling Laotian refugees from the war.  They were fortunate.  It is estimated that at least 100,000 of their countrymen were killed in collaboration with the People's Army of Vietnam.  Our soldiers fought in that war, in part, to keep these atrocities from occurring.  These were not part of the "predicted consequences"?
Title: Re: The holiday that hurts
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on November 11, 2015, 12:07:31 PM
It seems to me that those who serve in the military do sacrifice - mainly for the benefit of others.

It seems to me that those who refuse to serve in the military (other than for religious reasons) do sacrifice - mainly for the benefit of themselves. 


How many join the military as a way to get a job and a paycheck - thus serving themselves?


What about the millions of young people who neither join nor refuse to serve? I was given a 4-D deferment (minister - a life-time deferment) back when there was a draft when I was attending Bible school. Otherwise I certainly would have been drafted since my lottery number was 7 - and a student deferment was good for only 4 years. I didn't refuse to serve in the military. Neither did I volunteer. Had I been drafted I would have gone.
Title: Re: The holiday that hurts
Post by: Dave Likeness on November 11, 2015, 12:37:56 PM
We should not forget those who failed the medical/physical
tests for the draft.   The late, great Mickey Mantle had a
disease in his knee that disqualified him from military service.
Title: Re: The holiday that hurts
Post by: Donald_Kirchner on November 11, 2015, 12:45:52 PM
Pastor Kirchner writes:
Charles, on this Veteran's Day what is your point?
I comment:
My point is that we should honor our military veterans. And BTW, if we truly honor them and care for them, then explain to me why it is necessary to have private fund-raising efforts...

Thank you and Mr. Mundinger for changing your foci to a quite appropriate issue for discussion.
Title: Re: The holiday that hurts
Post by: Terry W Culler on November 11, 2015, 12:46:23 PM
Don: don't overplay that hostility card. 

Those are the stories my uncles described to me, as well as the stories many veterans from that era who I have served have described.  It is not overplayed one bit.  Kent State, Jane Fonda anyone?

Your uncle's experience and mine seem to have been different.  But I would find it hard to believe that I am the only Vietnam vet who wasn't spit upon.  Also, please remember that our stories grower bigger along with the number of our birthdays  ;)
Title: Re: The holiday that hurts
Post by: Donald_Kirchner on November 11, 2015, 12:51:54 PM
Don: don't overplay that hostility card. 

Those are the stories my uncles described to me, as well as the stories many veterans from that era who I have served have described.  It is not overplayed one bit.  Kent State, Jane Fonda anyone?

Your uncle's experience and mine seem to have been different.  But I would find it hard to believe that I am the only Vietnam vet who wasn't spit upon.  Also, please remember that our stories grower bigger along with the number of our birthdays  ;)

So, can we agree that "there were those in your generation [not all] who spit on the soldiers and called them "Baby killers!" and worse when they came home" is hardly overplaying the hostility card and focus on Veteran's Day?
Title: Re: The holiday that hurts
Post by: Donald_Kirchner on November 11, 2015, 01:01:04 PM
It seems to me that those who serve in the military do sacrifice - mainly for the benefit of others.

It seems to me that those who refuse to serve in the military (other than for religious reasons) do sacrifice - mainly for the benefit of themselves. 


How many join the military as a way to get a job and a paycheck - thus serving themselves?


What about the millions of young people who neither join nor refuse to serve? I was given a 4-D deferment (minister - a life-time deferment) back when there was a draft when I was attending Bible school. Otherwise I certainly would have been drafted since my lottery number was 7 - and a student deferment was good for only 4 years. I didn't refuse to serve in the military. Neither did I volunteer. Had I been drafted I would have gone.

Well, yes you did refuse to serve by obtaining a student deferment. So, what about them? Veteran's Day is not about you or them, BS. It's about military veterans, lest in your word games and homemade definitions you consider yourself a veteran by being in the ministry of the Church Militant for decades.    :o
Title: Re: The holiday that hurts
Post by: RevG on November 11, 2015, 01:07:23 PM
Vietnam fell to the Communists, but none of the predicted consequences of that fall resulted.  In fact, just the opposite.  Vietnam is now a trading partner.  We had the opportunity to side with Ho Chi Minh in Vietnam's civil war.  We chose not too.  But, doing so would have made a lot of sense because we should have factored in the long-standing adversarial relationship between Vietnam and China.

You have forgotten that in the 10 years after the end of the war 1–2.5 million South Vietnamese were sent to reeducation camps, with an estimated 165,000 prisoners dying.  Between 65,000 and 250,000 South Vietnamese were executed.  Add to this the millions executed and murdered by Pol Pot in Cambodia. During my youth I watched the Lutheran church help in resettling Laotian refugees from the war.  They were fortunate.  It is estimated that at least 100,000 of their countrymen were killed in collaboration with the People's Army of Vietnam.  Our soldiers fought in that war, in part, to keep these atrocities from occurring.  These were not part of the "predicted consequences"?

We (U.S.) politically and financially backed Pol Pot and the Khmer Rouge.  This is well documented.

In Christ,
Scott+
Title: Re: The holiday that hurts
Post by: SomeoneWrites on November 11, 2015, 01:18:17 PM
I have a ton of thoughts about war, Vietnam, Iraq, administrations, just wars, hero worship, VA neglect, military budgets, and such things.  Each one, would be a thread in its own right.  But there's a time and place for everything. 

Here, I would like to express a sincere Thank you to all the veterans reading this.  I believe I understand the gravity of the decision, which is why I chose not to enlist.  You have done what I could/would not.   Thank you for your service. 
Title: Re: The holiday that hurts
Post by: MaddogLutheran on November 11, 2015, 01:23:14 PM
I am not critical of those who serve as warriors.  I am critical of those who send them to war, especially when they do so on false pretenses. 
What is truth?  Or perhaps, who's truth?

If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.  But, if we confess our sins, God is faithful and just and will forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
Yes, it has been established previously that you are in favor of confessing sins...but at the same time, the "we" have that has been somewhat problematic, as well was what particularly needs to be confessed.
Title: Re: The holiday that hurts
Post by: Buckeye Deaconess on November 11, 2015, 02:28:36 PM
Even Luther (http://www.godrules.net/library/luther/NEW1luther_e7.htm) got it (emphasis mine) . . .

When men write about war, then, and say that it is a great plague, that is all true; but they should also see how great the plague is that it prevents. If people were good, and glad to keep peace, war would be the greatest plague on earth; but what are you going to do with the fact that people will not keep peace, but rob, steal, kill, outrage women and children, and take away property and honor? The small lack of peace, called war, or the sword, must set a check upon this universal, world-wide lack of peace, before which no one could stand. Therefore God honors the sword so highly that He calls it His own ordinance, and will not have men say or imagine that they have invented it or instituted it. For the hand that wields this sword and slays with it is then no more man’s hand, but God’s, and it is not man, but God, who hangs, tortures, beheads, slays and fights. All these are His works and His judgments. In a word, in thinking of the soldier’s office, we must not have regard to the slaying, burning, smiting, seizing, etc. That is what the narrow, simple eyes of children do, when they see in the physician only a man who cuts off hands or saws off legs, but do not see that he does it to save the whole body. So, too, we must look at the office of the soldier, or the sword, with grown-up eyes, and see why it slays and acts so cruelly. Then it will prove itself to be an office that, in itself, is godly, as needful and useful to the world as eating and drinking or any other work.
Title: Re: The holiday that hurts
Post by: Donald_Kirchner on November 11, 2015, 02:32:33 PM
I am not critical of those who serve as warriors.  I am critical of those who send them to war, especially when they do so on false pretenses. 
What is truth?  Or perhaps, who's truth?

If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.  But, if we confess our sins, God is faithful and just and will forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
Yes, it has been established previously that you are in favor of confessing sins...but at the same time, the "we" have that has been somewhat problematic, as well was what particularly needs to be confessed.

Keep in mind that when Mr. Mundinger uses the term "we," itis nearly always the royal we, IOW "those other guys" about whom he's complaining.
Title: Re: The holiday that hurts
Post by: John Mundinger on November 11, 2015, 02:50:17 PM
You have forgotten that in the 10 years after the end of the war 1–2.5 million South Vietnamese were sent to reeducation camps, with an estimated 165,000 prisoners dying.  Between 65,000 and 250,000 South Vietnamese were executed. 

No, I haven't.  Those people lost a civil war that we helped to perpetuate.  We share the blame for those deaths, too.  How might things have been different, had we engaged for peace rather than to perpetuate the violence?

Our soldiers fought in that war, in part, to keep these atrocities from occurring.

At least that is the propaganda we fed ourselves to justify our own atrocities.  Had that been the real motive, we could have found much better approaches to achieve that end.
Title: Re: The holiday that hurts
Post by: John Mundinger on November 11, 2015, 02:54:20 PM
So, can we agree that "there were those in your generation [not all] who spit on the soldiers and called them "Baby killers!" and worse when they came home" is hardly overplaying the hostility card and focus on Veteran's Day?

We can agree on those points.  Can we also agree that our nation has yet to repent for the atrocities we committed during that war?
Title: Re: The holiday that hurts
Post by: John Mundinger on November 11, 2015, 02:57:49 PM
Keep in mind that when Mr. Mundinger uses the term "we," itis nearly always the royal we, IOW "those other guys" about whom he's complaining.

Not in this case, Pr. Kirchner.  I served in one immoral war and my taxes supported another.  It's as much my sin as it is the sin of those other guys.
Title: Re: The holiday that hurts
Post by: LutherMan on November 11, 2015, 02:58:56 PM
Too bad a thread that was intended to be a warm tribute is getting all crapped up...
Title: Re: The holiday that hurts
Post by: Donald_Kirchner on November 11, 2015, 03:05:37 PM
You are right, LutherMan. An excellent and appropriate article as well as the first 3 replies. Then things went sideways, and I apologize for following and participating in that dreck.
Title: Re: The holiday that hurts
Post by: LutherMan on November 11, 2015, 03:19:53 PM
You are right, LutherMan. An excellent and appropriate article as well as the first 3 replies. Then things went sideways, and I apologize for following and participating in that dreck.

Not to worry-----I understand why you do it...
Title: Re: The holiday that hurts
Post by: Buckeye Deaconess on November 11, 2015, 03:37:10 PM
Too bad a thread that was intended to be a warm tribute is getting all crapped up...

Well, the leftover hostilities from the 60s and 70s have certainly surfaced.  Thanks for getting us started on a good note, any way.  My heart breaks for those veterans who are struggling to cope (https://www.yahoo.com/katiecouric/as-the-nation-pauses-to-remember-its-veterans-153527922.html) with the task that was put before them.  The rate of suicide among this group is unnerving.  That some would wish to shame them for their service is equally unnerving.

I wonder what these same folks will say and do when ISIS is knocking on their door trying to treat their loved ones as others are being treated around the globe.  The treatment of women and young girls (http://www.cnn.com/2014/10/14/opinion/ghitis-isis-women-slavery/index.html) is especially appalling, but let's just hide behind our unjust war claims and not support the use of our forces for good to protect the innocents.

Title: Re: The holiday that hurts
Post by: Charles Austin on November 11, 2015, 03:56:11 PM
The deaconess persists:
Well, the leftover hostilities from the 60s and 70s have certainly surfaced.  Thanks for getting us started on a good note, any way.  My heart breaks for those veterans who are struggling to cope with the task that was put before them.  The rate of suicide among this group is unnerving.  That some would wish to shame them for their service is equally unnerving.
I comment:
Stop creating and re-creating your own mythology. My heart breaks for the veterans who now suffer what they never should have suffered, had we not sent them where they should not have gone. My heart breaks for the veterans who can't get what they need from the VA. My heart breaks for the families of those in uniform today who don't know in what local war their loved one is like to die.

The deaconess writes:
I wonder what these same folks will say and do when ISIS is knocking on their door trying to treat their loved ones as others are being treated around the globe.  The treatment of women and young girls is especially appalling, but let's just hide behind our unjust war claims and not support the use of our forces for good to protect the innocents.
I comment:
For heaven's sake, has the discussion sunk that low? I guess so, in the over-heated attempt to justify our reliance on military might.
Here is another view, from one who served as an infantry officer in Iraq.
http://www.northjersey.com/opinion/opinion-guest-writers/patriotic-pageantry-sanitizes-the-realities-of-war-1.1452731
Why this reluctance to admit that as a nation we have been far too quick to send our men and women into combat elsewhere, that we have romanticized war, that we are fascinated with the technology of war, that we think our nation is strong because we are armed?
It does not detract from the service of those in uniform to look at the bigger picture. But it is part of the national myth that all we should do is look at the man or woman who went into combat and served bravely, rather than to look at the often stupid reasons they were sent into combat.
Title: Re: The holiday that hurts
Post by: D. Engebretson on November 11, 2015, 05:01:17 PM
You have forgotten that in the 10 years after the end of the war 1–2.5 million South Vietnamese were sent to reeducation camps, with an estimated 165,000 prisoners dying.  Between 65,000 and 250,000 South Vietnamese were executed. 

No, I haven't.  Those people lost a civil war that we helped to perpetuate.  We share the blame for those deaths, too.  How might things have been different, had we engaged for peace rather than to perpetuate the violence?

Our soldiers fought in that war, in part, to keep these atrocities from occurring.

At least that is the propaganda we fed ourselves to justify our own atrocities.  Had that been the real motive, we could have found much better approaches to achieve that end.

I will admit that my knowledge of Vietnamese history is less than adequate, but how does one come up with a "civil war" to describe the efforts of the communists in the north to forcefully take over the south?  Also, the partitioning of the country was not the work of the US. We are not solely responsible for any division in this area. This was the result of the Geneva Conference in 1954, in which several countries participated, including the US, USSR, UK and France.  While elections were hoped to be held in 1956 with a view to possible unification of the country, these were not held (as the south did not feel bound b the conference's authority).  The communists of the north chose as an alternative to unite by force, thus the war.  Conflict that escalated later with US involvement began much earlier with the French who had colonial rule over the area following WWII.  To reduce the Vietnam issue to just a "civil war" in which the US interfered and worsened seems to misinterpret the historical situation.  My original point is that these situations are highly complex anyway and placing blame on one country for poor choices is to reduce the complexity to a simple option of finding a convenient scapegoat.  There still remains the painful truth of unspeakable communistic atrocities against the south.  To reduce it all to just a "civil war" that could have been peacefully resolved if only we had stayed out militarily appears naive at best.  As a side note: how does one seek peace with a force that is so brutal and destructive of human life and dignity short of war?
Title: Re: The holiday that hurts
Post by: Charles Austin on November 11, 2015, 05:14:49 PM
And to reduce the Vietnam war to an Us vs. the Commies and their aggression also misinterprets the complex situation.
Title: Re: The holiday that hurts
Post by: John Mundinger on November 11, 2015, 08:03:23 PM
Too bad a thread that was intended to be a warm tribute is getting all crapped up...

Committing our nation to the principles of just war would be more substantive than warm tributes.  I do not understand why people of faith would equate such a suggestion to "crapping up" the suggestion that we should honor our veterans.
Title: Re: The holiday that hurts
Post by: John Mundinger on November 11, 2015, 08:10:13 PM
I will admit that my knowledge of Vietnamese history is less than adequate, but how does one come up with a "civil war" to describe the efforts of the communists in the north to forcefully take over the south?

The first half of that sentence pretty much answers the question posed in the second half.  Vietnam was not two countries prior to the expulsion of the French.  So, it was not a matter of one country attempting to take over another by force.  It was armed conflict between two opposing political forces within one country, i.e. a civil war.
Title: Re: The holiday that hurts
Post by: Terry W Culler on November 11, 2015, 08:48:03 PM
The problem in Vietnam, as it was in Korea and Iraq and Afghanistan and now wherever ISIS holds sway is that these weren't really wars.  Wars are fought following an official declaration of war approved by the Congress.  These events never had clear goals, we never knew when or if we won, and military decisions were made by politicians.  (the first Iraq war is in another category because it did have a stated goal which, when achieved, signaled the end of it).  If we want to honor veterans we will stop getting into these pseudo-wars and follow the Constitution.
Title: Re: The holiday that hurts
Post by: Buckeye Deaconess on November 11, 2015, 09:16:06 PM
If we want to honor veterans we will stop getting into these pseudo-wars and follow the Constitution.

Terrorism is an unconventional form of war.  Are you really okay with more 9/11 style attacks on our own soil?  Are you really okay with standing by while innocent girls are taken captive in Africa and the Middle East (and other places to be sure) and kept as sex slaves and/or slaughtered under the guise of serving a disgusting and distorted notion of a false God?  Who will hear their pleas for help?  Should we sit back and do nothing while the innocent perish?  Ignore their please for our intervention, in other words?  That, sir, is cowardly.  When it's our own daughters, it will be too late.  And make no mistake, they are coming for our daughters (http://www.digitaljournal.com/article/346059).
Title: Re: The holiday that hurts
Post by: J. Thomas Shelley on November 11, 2015, 09:40:01 PM
I repent that I may have triggered these digressions by posting about Martin of Tours and other soldier-saints far upstream.

This day is not about the Constitutionality of conficts, or the righteousness of a particular engagement, but about the persons who willingly (or unwillingly, in the case of draftees) place themselves in harms way on behalf of others.
Title: Re: The holiday that hurts
Post by: John Mundinger on November 11, 2015, 09:56:36 PM
https://scontent-sea1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xft1/v/t1.0-9/12208643_920704561343089_7031856635936333119_n.jpg?oh=9745395478e069ea00a469767e1bff8c&oe=56B57249
Title: Re: The holiday that hurts
Post by: Charles Austin on November 11, 2015, 10:53:57 PM
The deaconess writes:
Terrorism is an unconventional form of war.  Are you really okay with more 9/11 style attacks on our own soil?
I comment:
No, I am not. Are you really okay with having virtually everything we do make those who practice a warlike, militant Islam even more mad at us than they are now?

The deaconess writes:
Are you really okay with standing by while innocent girls are taken captive in Africa and the Middle East (and other places to be sure) and kept as sex slaves and/or slaughtered under the guise of serving a disgusting and distorted notion of a false God?  Who will hear their pleas for help?  Should we sit back and do nothing while the innocent perish?  Ignore their please for our intervention, in other words?
I comment:
So what's your plan, deaconess? Send our troops everywhere something bad happens? Use our troops as crusaders against those serving another god? And where are these pleas for help? Do we as Americans have an obligation to leap in with troops every time "the innocent perish" somewhere in the world? You would not only have us as the world's police force, but as the world's theological crusaders. I find that appalling and dangerous.

The deaconess writes:
That, sir, is cowardly.  When it's our own daughters, it will be too late.  And make no mistake, they are coming for our daughters.
I comment:
So when are you re-upping? Good grief.
Title: Re: The holiday that hurts
Post by: George Erdner on November 12, 2015, 12:39:03 AM
And when the concept of "just war" is raised, who is to decide when a given conflict is "just"?  Who sets the standards?  Or is the "just" war no war at all?  Is the highest ideal isolation?

It's every man for himself.
Title: Re: The holiday that hurts
Post by: John Mundinger on November 12, 2015, 07:15:37 AM
https://scontent-sea1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpf1/v/t1.0-9/12196229_1159486294066008_4076452998372837658_n.png?oh=3bd11ceec4b946bff636e132bc44a3a8&oe=56B09B6C
Title: Re: The holiday that hurts
Post by: John Mundinger on November 12, 2015, 07:19:30 AM
And when the concept of "just war" is raised, who is to decide when a given conflict is "just"?  Who sets the standards?  Or is the "just" war no war at all?  Is the highest ideal isolation?

It's every man for himself.

There is a lot of truth in what you say, George.  There is a lot of every man for himself because the old Adam cannot abide the thought that our enemies also are created in God's image.  Thus, we eschew the principles of just war in favor of principles of war that better serve our selfish agendas.
Title: Re: The holiday that hurts
Post by: George Erdner on November 12, 2015, 09:00:21 AM
And when the concept of "just war" is raised, who is to decide when a given conflict is "just"?  Who sets the standards?  Or is the "just" war no war at all?  Is the highest ideal isolation?

It's every man for himself.

There is a lot of truth in what you say, George.  There is a lot of every man for himself because the old Adam cannot abide the thought that our enemies also are created in God's image.  Thus, we eschew the principles of just war in favor of principles of war that better serve our selfish agendas.

There is that, though I don't see how it relates. I was only referring to the fact that ultimately every person must decide for himself whether to pick up a weapon and use it or not.
Title: Re: The holiday that hurts
Post by: Kurt Weinelt on November 12, 2015, 09:57:06 AM
If we want to honor veterans we will stop getting into these pseudo-wars and follow the Constitution.
Terrorism is an unconventional form of war.  Are you really okay with more 9/11 style attacks on our own soil?  Are you really okay with standing by while innocent girls are taken captive in Africa and the Middle East (and other places to be sure) and kept as sex slaves and/or slaughtered under the guise of serving a disgusting and distorted notion of a false God?  Who will hear their pleas for help?  Should we sit back and do nothing while the innocent perish?  Ignore their please for our intervention, in other words?  That, sir, is cowardly.  When it's our own daughters, it will be too late.  And make no mistake, they are coming for our daughters (http://www.digitaljournal.com/article/346059).
This old G.I. appreciates your posts on this topic, Deaconess. Thank you.

And I owe a huge debt of gratitude to all my brothers and sisters in arms who have done so much more than I to secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity.

At this point I will echo Chaplain Gard's point...using freedom of speech to denigrate veterans on Veterans Day is akin to cussing farmers with your mouth full. And both are equally attractive.

"...It is the Soldier, not the campus organizer Who has given us freedom to protest." (Charles Province)
Title: Re: The holiday that hurts
Post by: Buckeye Deaconess on November 12, 2015, 10:00:38 AM
If we want to honor veterans we will stop getting into these pseudo-wars and follow the Constitution.
Terrorism is an unconventional form of war.  Are you really okay with more 9/11 style attacks on our own soil?  Are you really okay with standing by while innocent girls are taken captive in Africa and the Middle East (and other places to be sure) and kept as sex slaves and/or slaughtered under the guise of serving a disgusting and distorted notion of a false God?  Who will hear their pleas for help?  Should we sit back and do nothing while the innocent perish?  Ignore their please for our intervention, in other words?  That, sir, is cowardly.  When it's our own daughters, it will be too late.  And make no mistake, they are coming for our daughters (http://www.digitaljournal.com/article/346059).
This old G.I. appreciates your posts on this topic, Deaconess. Thank you.

And I owe a huge debt of gratitude to all my brothers and sisters in arms who have done so much more than I to secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity.

At this point I will echo Chaplain Gard's point...using freedom of speech to denigrate veterans on Veterans Day is akin to cussing farmers with your mouth full. And both are equally attractive.

"...It is the Soldier, not the campus organizer Who has given us freedom to protest." (Charles Province)

Amen and thank you.  I thank God that it seems to be only on this forum that I see such disrespect on display.  Thank you for your service.
Title: Re: The holiday that hurts
Post by: Terry W Culler on November 12, 2015, 10:15:53 AM
If we want to honor veterans we will stop getting into these pseudo-wars and follow the Constitution.

Terrorism is an unconventional form of war.  Are you really okay with more 9/11 style attacks on our own soil?  Are you really okay with standing by while innocent girls are taken captive in Africa and the Middle East (and other places to be sure) and kept as sex slaves and/or slaughtered under the guise of serving a disgusting and distorted notion of a false God?  Who will hear their pleas for help?  Should we sit back and do nothing while the innocent perish?  Ignore their please for our intervention, in other words?  That, sir, is cowardly.  When it's our own daughters, it will be too late.  And make no mistake, they are coming for our daughters (http://www.digitaljournal.com/article/346059).

Please forgive me if I say this sounds just a tad hysterical.  My statements in favor of operating solely in ways congruent with the Constitution in no way leads to a conclusion that I want people to die or be sold into slavery.  Your assertion simply can't withstand 10 seconds of consecutive thought. Let me ask you--how much liberty are you willing to surrender to be safe?  How many countries are you willing to attack?  Who gets to make these decisions?  John Quincy Adams best reflected Washington's concerns about foreign entanglements when he wrote that America is a well wisher to all who seek liberty, but she is the guarantor only of her own.
Title: Re: The holiday that hurts
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on November 12, 2015, 10:26:24 AM
At this point I will echo Chaplain Gard's point...using freedom of speech to denigrate veterans on Veterans Day is akin to cussing farmers with your mouth full. And both are equally attractive.


What about those who denigrate socialism while cashing their social security checks?
Title: Re: The holiday that hurts
Post by: Buckeye Deaconess on November 12, 2015, 10:34:30 AM
Who gets to make these decisions?

Elected officials, chosen by the people, make these decisions, obviously.  Some decisions are boneheaded, of course.  Criticism of those decisions should rightfully fall on those making them, not on the backs of brave servicemen and servicewomen who uphold the oath they took to serve their country.

When you've been a victim of a Muslim physically violating you, then you have every right to call my claims hysterical.  My claim is based on present news coverage of actual events and circumstances that are being ignored by the MSM as well as my own experience in Europe almost 25 years ago with a group of Turkish teenagers.  Those of you who can appreciate our military's fine training will also appreciate that I put my own military police training to good use in response.  ;D
Title: Re: The holiday that hurts
Post by: dkeener on November 12, 2015, 10:51:19 AM
At this point I will echo Chaplain Gard's point...using freedom of speech to denigrate veterans on Veterans Day is akin to cussing farmers with your mouth full. And both are equally attractive.


What about those who denigrate socialism while cashing their social security checks?

What?  :-\  I don't think you thought this one through Brian
Title: Re: The holiday that hurts
Post by: Kurt Weinelt on November 12, 2015, 11:30:07 AM
At this point I will echo Chaplain Gard's point...using freedom of speech to denigrate veterans on Veterans Day is akin to cussing farmers with your mouth full. And both are equally attractive.


What about those who denigrate socialism while cashing their social security checks?

What?  :-\  I don't think you thought this one through Brian
Since this is a Veterans Day thread, maybe a new thread on socialism would be a more appropriate place to knock THAT hanging curve out of the park.
Title: Re: The holiday that hurts
Post by: dkeener on November 12, 2015, 12:15:16 PM
 
At this point I will echo Chaplain Gard's point...using freedom of speech to denigrate veterans on Veterans Day is akin to cussing farmers with your mouth full. And both are equally attractive.


What about those who denigrate socialism while cashing their social security checks?

What?  :-\  I don't think you thought this one through Brian
Since this is a Veterans Day thread, maybe a new thread on socialism would be a more appropriate place to knock THAT hanging curve out of the park.

I couldn't agree more - my apologies for not pausing to think before posting.
Title: Re: The holiday that hurts
Post by: LutherMan on November 12, 2015, 12:17:53 PM
At this point I will echo Chaplain Gard's point...using freedom of speech to denigrate veterans on Veterans Day is akin to cussing farmers with your mouth full. And both are equally attractive.


What about those who denigrate socialism while cashing their social security checks?

What?  :-\  I don't think you thought this one through Brian
Since this is a Veterans Day thread, maybe a new thread on socialism would be a more appropriate place to knock THAT hanging curve out of the park.

I couldn't agree more - my apologies for not pausing to think before posting.
Relax, guys...
 ;)
Title: Re: The holiday that hurts
Post by: Kurt Weinelt on November 12, 2015, 12:39:26 PM
At this point I will echo Chaplain Gard's point...using freedom of speech to denigrate veterans on Veterans Day is akin to cussing farmers with your mouth full. And both are equally attractive.


What about those who denigrate socialism while cashing their social security checks?

What?  :-\  I don't think you thought this one through Brian
Since this is a Veterans Day thread, maybe a new thread on socialism would be a more appropriate place to knock THAT hanging curve out of the park.

I couldn't agree more - my apologies for not pausing to think before posting.
Sorry----that one wasn't aimed at you, but the "pitcher" of that hanging curve.
Title: Re: The holiday that hurts
Post by: Charles Austin on November 12, 2015, 01:23:09 PM
The deaconess writes:
When you've been a victim of a Muslim physically violating you, then you have every right to call my claims hysterical.  My claim is based on present news coverage of actual events and circumstances that are being ignored by the MSM as well as my own experience in Europe almost 25 years ago with a group of Turkish teenagers.  Those of you who can appreciate our military's fine training will also appreciate that I put my own military police training to good use in response.

I comment:
Utter nonesense. Do I have to be a "victim" of racism before I oppose it or work against it? I was once hassled and threated by a group of bikers, so does that mean I'm going to call down every time I see a group of guys on motorcycles? 
Most of the assaults on women in this country do not come from Muslims (and I hear the situation in the military ain't so great on this matter of sexual harrassment).
We need to work at learning how to live with groups of people, some of whom aren't always nice, and learn how to make more of them "nice," if that is necessary. We need to do that more than denounce them and be so gosh-darned proud that our military might or our military training can wipe them out or put them down.
Title: Re: The holiday that hurts
Post by: John Mundinger on November 12, 2015, 04:24:25 PM
At this point I will echo Chaplain Gard's point...using freedom of speech to denigrate veterans on Veterans Day is akin to cussing farmers with your mouth full. And both are equally attractive.

Nobody used this thread to denigrate Veterans - with the possible exception of some who equate support for failed policies with support for the troops.  Allowing politicians who advocate war to hide behind our military personnel is a variation on the same thing as spitting on soldiers to protest war.
Title: Re: The holiday that hurts
Post by: John Mundinger on November 12, 2015, 04:24:45 PM
https://scontent-sea1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xfl1/v/t1.0-9/12189123_1179719395372370_3207236668085937277_n.jpg?oh=dad9bdff3358617aa33190e656ea8318&oe=56F6A2D2
Title: Re: The holiday that hurts
Post by: Donald_Kirchner on November 12, 2015, 04:32:41 PM
https://scontent-sea1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xfl1/v/t1.0-9/12189123_1179719395372370_3207236668085937277_n.jpg?oh=dad9bdff3358617aa33190e656ea8318&oe=56F6A2D2

Sorry LutherMan...

What an absolutely ignorant and misguided statement of passivity!

"Rubio insisted we build up our military because we have radical enemies around the world. Radical jihadists in the Middle East, radical Shia clerics in Iran, the Chinese taking over the South China Sea, just to name a few.

'We can’t even have an economy if we’re not safe,' he said."

Radical enemies vowing to take us out. IOW, we cannot have freedom if we're not safe.

We honor the fallen soldier by cherishing and protecting the freedom that he or she won for us.

"Executive Mansion
Washington, Nov. 21, 1864

To Mrs. Bixby, Boston, Mass.
Dear Madam,

I have been shown in the files of the War Department a statement of the Adjutant General of Massachusetts that you are the mother of five sons who have died gloriously on the field of battle. I feel how weak and fruitless must be any word of mine which should attempt to beguile you from the grief of a loss so overwhelming. But I cannot refrain from tendering you the consolation that may be found in the thanks of the republic they died to save. I pray that our Heavenly Father may assuage the anguish of your bereavement, and leave you only the cherished memory of the loved and lost, and the solemn pride that must be yours to have laid so costly a sacrifice upon the altar of freedom.

Yours very sincerely and respectfully,
A. Lincoln"
Title: Re: The holiday that hurts
Post by: Charles Austin on November 12, 2015, 10:03:33 PM
Do you really believe, Pastor Kirchner, that our obsessive, hyper, over-heated and jingoistic emphasis on the military is the way to make things better in today's world? No one discounts that "greatest generation," or the veterans who served in good conscience and bravely.
But what about "blessed are the peacemakers"? What about being as proud of those who seek other ways of building a world community? What about noting that in "winning" freedom for ourselves, we may have trampled on it for others? Those of you who get all martial-music high and flag-waving starry-eyed about "freedom" and "patriotism" may be closing your eyes to some very important things about today's world.
Not to mention some very important things about Christian witness.
Title: Re: The holiday that hurts
Post by: Donald_Kirchner on November 12, 2015, 11:01:14 PM
Do you really believe, Pastor Kirchner, that our obsessive, hyper, over-heated and jingoistic emphasis on the military is the way to make things better in today's world?...

But what about "blessed are the peacemakers"?

I deny the premise. My, your go-to response is the straw man, isn't it? Your posts certainly do manifest an intellectual dishonesty, Charles.

Peacemaking is a good thing. We cannot have peace if we're not safe.  First things first, Charles. Do you really want to espouse the Neville Chamberlain philosophy of obtaining peace?
Title: Re: The holiday that hurts
Post by: Charles Austin on November 12, 2015, 11:57:37 PM
 Yes, I understand your position. It's "kill 'em, then make peace with 'em." Or at least threaten to kill them if you think they are out to get you.
Title: Re: The holiday that hurts
Post by: Donald_Kirchner on November 13, 2015, 12:00:59 AM
Yes, I understand your position. It's "kill 'em, then make peace with 'em." Or at least threaten to kill them if you think they are out to get you.

No, you do not. And that's scary. Will the march of your straw men never end?
Title: Re: The holiday that hurts
Post by: Charles Austin on November 13, 2015, 04:04:24 AM
I guess I have to give you the last word, Pastor Kirchner, lest this set-to go on until after the cows come home, the soup gets cold and Helen's kid grows a beard. Throw it in here now, sans a personal insult, and le denier mot (while probably not bon) is yours.
Title: Re: The holiday that hurts
Post by: John Mundinger on November 13, 2015, 08:10:12 AM
What an absolutely ignorant and misguided statement of passivity!

No, just a statement in support of the principles of just war.  Military personnel are obligated to follow orders.  If we expect them to do that, they have a right to expect that the orders are legitimate.  They have a right to expect that the order to engage in combat is in defense of a legitimate threat; that the nation has first exhausted all reasonable alternatives to combat to neutralize the threat; and, that the nation did not provoke the threat in the first place.  There is nothing passive about the principles of just war.  It just means that there are more options than combat as the first and only choice.

The reality is that the United States, like every other nation, is evil.  We have used our military for evil purposes.  We have consistently treated uniformed personnel as expendable.  We show them great disrespect.  In my opinion, the best way to celebrate "Veteran's Day" is to put an end to the platitudes that salve our guilty consciences and commit to significant change in our militaristic mentality.
Title: Re: The holiday that hurts
Post by: J. Thomas Shelley on November 13, 2015, 08:40:19 AM
The reality is that the United States, like every other nation, is evil. 

And the Biblical basis for this sweeping condemnation of the institution of government is?
Title: Re: The holiday that hurts
Post by: John Mundinger on November 13, 2015, 08:48:05 AM
The reality is that the United States, like every other nation, is evil. 

And the Biblical basis for this sweeping condemnation of the institution of government is?

It is not a sweeping condemnation of the institution of government.  It is a sweeping condemnation of the way that sinful humans have corrupted the institution, as ordained by God.  And, if you are looking for a Biblical basis for the condemnation of this country, I'd suggest reading the prophets (you could start with Amos) and substitute "United States" every time the prophets speak against the sinful behavior of Israel and Judah.
Title: Re: The holiday that hurts
Post by: Donald_Kirchner on November 13, 2015, 08:53:31 AM
If you are sincere, Mr. Mundinger, then go back and read the article with which LutherMan initiated this thread. It addresses your concern and ends with a thank you to our veterans. Your reaction..."Talk is cheap!" followed by your never-ending rant about how evil America and Americans are. In the end, you manifest what has become quite popular today, Mr. Mundinger, a disrespect and even a hatred of America. We see it quite often.

http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2015/09/16/mixed-reaction-national-anthem-media-filing-room-stand-not-stand/

http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2015/10/13/watch-most-journos-fail-to-stand-for-anthem-at-democratic-debate/

Can it and thank a vet for sacrificing to give you the freedom to espouse your disrespect and lack of appreciation for what you've been given.
Title: Re: The holiday that hurts
Post by: Team Hesse on November 13, 2015, 09:13:21 AM
The reality is that the United States, like every other nation, is evil. 

And the Biblical basis for this sweeping condemnation of the institution of government is?

It is not a sweeping condemnation of the institution of government.  It is a sweeping condemnation of the way that sinful humans have corrupted the institution, as ordained by God.  And, if you are looking for a Biblical basis for the condemnation of this country, I'd suggest reading the prophets (you could start with Amos) and substitute "United States" every time the prophets speak against the sinful behavior of Israel and Judah.


Yes, I agree with you. Sinful humans including you and me corrupt everything we are involved in. Even the very best we do is contaminated with  and by our sinfulness. How then do we live day by day? What concrete proposal can you bring to the table of human existence that will not be contaminated with the same problems you have so deftly identified in the American experiment? What is your proffered alternative?


For the record, I have discovered none. The only way out I know of is to embrace daily that I am baptized, my sins are forgiven because Jesus came into the world and took responsibility for the never-ending daily ways I and all other creatures fail to do the father's will. I have found no other means by which I can keep from screaming into the abyss "when will this madness stop." I want this consolation for you also. Sins truly are forgiven in Jesus name alone. Shalom.


Lou


Which actually is the best way to remember and celebrate this holiday in particular.
Title: Re: The holiday that hurts
Post by: John Mundinger on November 13, 2015, 09:25:49 AM
If you are sincere, Mr. Mundinger, then go back and read the article with which LutherMan initiated this thread. It addresses your concern and ends with a thank you to our veterans.

If we embrace the belief that the Lord of the Nations is the only source of peace, why do you (and LutherMan) have such difficulty with the suggestion that the best way to honor our veterans is to embrace the principles of just war? 

And, by the way, I didn't see anything in that statement advocating just war.  The article gave a pass to our engagements in Vietnam and Iraq.  And, if we are to conclude that God gave us our victories, do we also conclude that God gave us the defeat in Vietnam and our current travails in Iraq and Afghanistan?  And, if so, what is God trying to tell us with those "gifts"?

"Talk is cheap!" followed by your never-ending rant about how evil America and Americans are.

Given your understanding of God's Law, how are you able to conclude that our nation is anything but evil?

a disrespect and even a hatred of America.

I do not hate this country, Pr. Kirchner.  I do, however, hate our sinful behaviors.  Even more, I hate our unwillingness to be honest about it, even to the point of covering it up with platitudes, flawed arguments, etc.  Again, given your understanding of God's Law, I fail to understand your inability to grasp the distinction.

Can it and thank a vet for sacrificing to give you the freedom to espouse your disrespect and lack of appreciation for what you've been given.

I'll ask you again.  What's on your DD214?  Mine is proof that I have earned the right to espouse my criticisms of our nation's militarism!
Title: Re: The holiday that hurts
Post by: Donald_Kirchner on November 13, 2015, 09:44:29 AM
No Mr. Mundinger, in your mind your DD214 is license to feel superior to others who don't join you in disrespect on Veteran's Day, crying "Talk is cheap!" to a fine article that initiated this thread. As Pr. Hesse has expressed, may you find peace and consolation, Mr. Mundinger.

BTW, the Bill of Rights applies to all citizens, Mr. Mundinger. Your comment shows that you misunderstand or disregard the concept of veterans having sacrificed for the nation, and for that we should thank them. Your comment that your service earned you a right expresses a self-centered view that you served for yourself so that you now can criticize the nation.
Title: Re: The holiday that hurts
Post by: John Mundinger on November 13, 2015, 09:52:59 AM
No Mr. Mundinger, in your mind your DD214 is license to feel superior to others who don't join you in disrespect on Veteran's Day, crying "Talk is cheap!"

If that is your expression of thanks, for my service, you are welcome.

I'd simply add that more than a few veterans share the sentiments that I expressed in this thread.  Earlier I posted a link to the comments of the representative of one veterans organization that quite eloquently spoke to the notion that talk is cheap.  If we really mean the sentiment, why hasn't it been translated into action 365 days a year to deliver on the promised health care, to end homelessness for vets, etc. etc.?
Title: Re: The holiday that hurts
Post by: Kurt Weinelt on November 13, 2015, 09:57:01 AM
Yes, I understand your position. It's "kill 'em, then make peace with 'em." Or at least threaten to kill them if you think they are out to get you.

No, you do not. And that's scary. Will the march of your straw men never end?

Igitur qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum.
Publius Flavius Vegetius Renatus
Title: Re: The holiday that hurts
Post by: Charles Austin on November 13, 2015, 10:01:40 AM
Sure, Kurt Weinelt, there is a lot more "peace" when we show that we are prepared to kill and maim our "enemies" and invade their countries than when we show that we are trying to live together in a more peaceful world. Not.
Title: Re: The holiday that hurts
Post by: Donald_Kirchner on November 13, 2015, 10:13:07 AM
Sure, Kurt Weinelt, there is a lot more "peace" when we show that we are prepared to kill and maim our "enemies" and invade their countries than when we show that we are trying to live together in a more peaceful world. Not.

And Charles' parade of straw men never ends.   :(

A more peaceful world?! Where have you been?
Title: Re: The holiday that hurts
Post by: Donald_Kirchner on November 13, 2015, 10:14:59 AM
No Mr. Mundinger, in your mind your DD214 is license to feel superior to others who don't join you in disrespect on Veteran's Day, crying "Talk is cheap!"

If that is your expression of thanks, for my service, you are welcome.

In the end it's still about you, isn't it, even to the point of criticizing a fine article because it doesn't jump on your hobby horse rant about just wars, instead crying "Talk is cheap!"  ::)
Title: Re: The holiday that hurts
Post by: George Erdner on November 13, 2015, 10:20:00 AM
Yes, I understand your position. It's "kill 'em, then make peace with 'em." Or at least threaten to kill them if you think they are out to get you.

No, you do not. And that's scary. Will the march of your straw men never end?

Igitur qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum.
Publius Flavius Vegetius Renatus

Things built of parts are as good or evil as the parts they are built from. Nations are built of people. Therefore, nations are as good or as evil as people are.

Nations, being at their most basic nothing more than collections of people, behave like people. Those who perceive others as weak are tempted to take from the weak whatever they want if they believe that they are strong enough to do so successfully. Presenting an outward appearance of formidable strength is therefore one effective way to dissuade bullies from attacking. Yes, that means scaring others out of attacking you. The principle Teddy Roosevelt advocated, talking softly but carrying a big stick, is not the most "Christian" of principles, but it is effective. And, so long as the talk is kept soft, and the stick is used mostly to frighten potential attackers, or to parry a blow in a defensive manner, it isn't the worst course of action for minimizing international mayhem. 
Title: Re: The holiday that hurts
Post by: Team Hesse on November 13, 2015, 10:23:34 AM

I'll ask you again.  What's on your DD214?  Mine is proof that I have earned the right to espouse my criticisms of our nation's militarism!


"Earned the right?" By your own consistent reasoning, the only "right" any of us sinners has "earned" is the right to die--"the wages of sin is death".


Again "the only solution to the absolute is the absolution." You, too, are forgiven for participating in our culture's war-making. Shalom in the name of Jesus.


Lou
Title: Re: The holiday that hurts
Post by: Kurt Weinelt on November 13, 2015, 10:33:14 AM
No Mr. Mundinger, in your mind your DD214 is license to feel superior to others who don't join you in disrespect on Veteran's Day, crying "Talk is cheap!"

If that is your expression of thanks, for my service, you are welcome.

I'd simply add that more than a few veterans share the sentiments that I expressed in this thread.  Earlier I posted a link to the comments of the representative of one veterans organization that quite eloquently spoke to the notion that talk is cheap.  If we really mean the sentiment, why hasn't it been translated into action 365 days a year to deliver on the promised health care, to end homelessness for vets, etc. etc.?

As a vet, I agree I want my country to improve. After 11 years active duty and 22 years reserve duty, I have lived and worked in the USA, Europe, and SW Asia. There is no nation in this world that offers more rights, freedom, and opportunity than the United States. We're imperfect, but we're way ahead of whoever is in second place.

AS far as VA health care goes, it is the nation's largest healthcare system. It belongs solely to the federal government; neither party has been able to change the instutionalized lethargy of the VA, even the current president who was particularly strident about the VA BEFORE he was elected. It is time to drain that putrid swamp and put in place a system that really DOES take care of our disabled vets. But since that would be an admission that the federal government is too incompetent to run a health care system, our disabled vets will continue to suffer and die due to governmental neglect. A pox on both political parties for this! >:(
Title: Re: The holiday that hurts
Post by: John Mundinger on November 13, 2015, 02:15:02 PM
For the record, I have discovered none. The only way out I know of is to embrace daily that I am baptized, my sins are forgiven because Jesus came into the world and took responsibility for the never-ending daily ways I and all other creatures fail to do the father's will. I have found no other means by which I can keep from screaming into the abyss "when will this madness stop." I want this consolation for you also. Sins truly are forgiven in Jesus name alone. Shalom.

That would be my conclusion, too.  But, I cannot daily embrace my Baptism and, at the same time, give the nation a pass for the way it uses the military as central to our foreign policy.  The madness may not stop, but that does not justify silence in naming the madness for what it is.
Title: Re: The holiday that hurts
Post by: John Mundinger on November 13, 2015, 02:21:56 PM
In the end it's still about you, isn't it, even to the point of criticizing a fine article because it doesn't jump on your hobby horse rant about just wars, instead crying "Talk is cheap!"  ::)

Just because the article jumps on your hobby horse rant doesn't necessarily make it a "fine article".  If if were something more than "cheap talk", the author would have proposed something substantive to counter the reality that we dishonor our veterans 364 days a year.  One day of happy talk might salve his and your consciences.  But, it doesn't do much for vets - especially those vets who are coping with the consequences of their honorable service.
Title: Re: The holiday that hurts
Post by: John Mundinger on November 13, 2015, 02:24:43 PM
Nations, being at their most basic nothing more than collections of people, behave like people. Those who perceive others as weak are tempted to take from the weak whatever they want if they believe that they are strong enough to do so successfully.

How often have we done that, George?
Title: Re: The holiday that hurts
Post by: John Mundinger on November 13, 2015, 02:26:54 PM
A pox on both political parties for this! >:(

...and, a pox on us for voting for them.
Title: Re: The holiday that hurts
Post by: Team Hesse on November 13, 2015, 02:42:34 PM
For the record, I have discovered none. The only way out I know of is to embrace daily that I am baptized, my sins are forgiven because Jesus came into the world and took responsibility for the never-ending daily ways I and all other creatures fail to do the father's will. I have found no other means by which I can keep from screaming into the abyss "when will this madness stop." I want this consolation for you also. Sins truly are forgiven in Jesus name alone. Shalom.

That would be my conclusion, too.  But, I cannot daily embrace my Baptism and, at the same time, give the nation a pass for the way it uses the military as central to our foreign policy.  The madness may not stop, but that does not justify silence in naming the madness for what it is.


I guess you have your call then......


Lou
Title: Re: The holiday that hurts
Post by: Kurt Weinelt on November 13, 2015, 02:59:03 PM
A pox on both political parties for this! >:(

...and, a pox on us for voting for them.
Then we have met the enemy, and they is us.
Title: Re: The holiday that hurts
Post by: Donald_Kirchner on November 13, 2015, 07:25:50 PM
Perhaps. As I watch the news I see something more specific. But now is not the time to discuss it. Kyrie Eleison. :(
Title: Re: The holiday that hurts
Post by: George Erdner on November 13, 2015, 09:01:51 PM
Nations, being at their most basic nothing more than collections of people, behave like people. Those who perceive others as weak are tempted to take from the weak whatever they want if they believe that they are strong enough to do so successfully.

How often have we done that, George?

27 times. Or maybe 28.
Title: Re: The holiday that hurts
Post by: Dan Fienen on November 14, 2015, 11:09:25 AM
I find interesting the implicit perfectionism exhibited by some comments concerning the sin of America.  Apparently there only two ways to regard America, either our nation is perfect or totally evil.  Any attempt to show that America has done some good, or have protected some innocent from the depredations of aggressors is met with the rejoinder "Do you believe that our nation has never sinned? That our military has never participated in evil actions?"
Title: Re: The holiday that hurts
Post by: Donald_Kirchner on November 14, 2015, 12:40:01 PM
Hate the sin. Love the sinner.

Is that cliché a Gandhi paraphrase?
Title: Re: The holiday that hurts
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on November 14, 2015, 03:04:17 PM
I find interesting the implicit perfectionism exhibited by some comments concerning the sin of America.  Apparently there only two ways to regard America, either our nation is perfect or totally evil.  Any attempt to show that America has done some good, or have protected some innocent from the depredations of aggressors is met with the rejoinder "Do you believe that our nation has never sinned? That our military has never participated in evil actions?"


Who said that there are only two ways to regard America. Certainly, not I. American has done a tremendous amount of good. I think I've done a lot of good things. Does that mean anything before the throne of God?


So what's your answers to my questions. Has our nation ever sinned? Has our military ever participated in evil actions? These are not asking, does America always sin or are all our military actions evil? It's asking if there can be legitimate complaints about some things American and our military have done - as well as praise for some things we have done.
Title: Re: The holiday that hurts
Post by: Dan Fienen on November 14, 2015, 04:48:55 PM
I find interesting the implicit perfectionism exhibited by some comments concerning the sin of America.  Apparently there only two ways to regard America, either our nation is perfect or totally evil.  Any attempt to show that America has done some good, or have protected some innocent from the depredations of aggressors is met with the rejoinder "Do you believe that our nation has never sinned? That our military has never participated in evil actions?"


Who said that there are only two ways to regard America. Certainly, not I. American has done a tremendous amount of good. I think I've done a lot of good things. Does that mean anything before the throne of God?


So what's your answers to my questions. Has our nation ever sinned? Has our military ever participated in evil actions? These are not asking, does America always sin or are all our military actions evil? It's asking if there can be legitimate complaints about some things American and our military have done - as well as praise for some things we have done.
Of course our nation has participated in evil things.  Our military has participated in evil actions.  Actually if we want to talk about evil action by our nation and its leadership I could suggest supporting an economic system that seems to encourage inequalities in income distribution, past imperialistic adventures, a congress that seems more interested in promoting personal and party advantages than in governing for the good of the nation.  How about a presidential candidate that sees Republicans as the greatest enemy she faces?  I also see as evil a government that is more interested is promoting self-determination and individualistic values than in protecting the most vulnerable among us?

Yes there is cause for complaints against America as there is cause for complaint against any government.  Yet for some, the complaints seem to be about all that they wish to look at.  Any praise for American actions or intentions must be immediately followed by a litany of complaints about how bad America has behaved and about how we must all adequately repent of our sin as a nation before anything good could be said, not that some ever have anything good to say about America.  The bad is the focus, the good is ignored.
Title: Re: The holiday that hurts
Post by: SomeoneWrites on November 14, 2015, 10:40:39 PM
I find interesting the implicit perfectionism exhibited by some comments concerning the sin of America.  Apparently there only two ways to regard America, either our nation is perfect or totally evil.  Any attempt to show that America has done some good, or have protected some innocent from the depredations of aggressors is met with the rejoinder "Do you believe that our nation has never sinned? That our military has never participated in evil actions?"


Who said that there are only two ways to regard America. Certainly, not I. American has done a tremendous amount of good. I think I've done a lot of good things. Does that mean anything before the throne of God?


So what's your answers to my questions. Has our nation ever sinned? Has our military ever participated in evil actions? These are not asking, does America always sin or are all our military actions evil? It's asking if there can be legitimate complaints about some things American and our military have done - as well as praise for some things we have done.

I think the big issue in this thread is "time and place" for criticisms. 
Title: Re: The holiday that hurts
Post by: John Mundinger on November 15, 2015, 08:24:46 AM
I find interesting the implicit perfectionism exhibited by some comments concerning the sin of America.  Apparently there only two ways to regard America, either our nation is perfect or totally evil.  Any attempt to show that America has done some good, or have protected some innocent from the depredations of aggressors is met with the rejoinder "Do you believe that our nation has never sinned? That our military has never participated in evil actions?"

What I find interesting is how eager some Lutheran pastors are to sanction our nation's flaws.

Of course our nation has participated in evil things.  Our military has participated in evil actions.  Actually if we want to talk about evil action by our nation and its leadership I could suggest supporting an economic system that seems to encourage inequalities in income distribution, past imperialistic adventures, a congress that seems more interested in promoting personal and party advantages than in governing for the good of the nation.  How about a presidential candidate that sees Republicans as the greatest enemy she faces?  I also see as evil a government that is more interested is promoting self-determination and individualistic values than in protecting the most vulnerable among us?

During my lifetime, most of our military actions have promoted the evils that you articulated.  I do not criticize individuals for their service.  I do criticize our nation for exploiting their commitments for less than honorable purposes.  And, in my opinion, Veterans Day is more about perpetuating the deception than really honoring those who served.  If we really wanted to honor them, we would limit our military engagements to actions consistent with the reason they enlisted.  Thus, my suggestion that we commit to the principles of just war.
Title: Re: The holiday that hurts
Post by: Dan Fienen on November 16, 2015, 11:43:36 AM
We have been discussing the evils of military action and the evil perpetuated by the United States Government in this thread.  How does this stand in the face of the targeting of civilians for violence and armed attack in the bombing of the Russian passenger jet in Egypt and the multiple attacks in Paris?  ISIL has proclaimed itself at war with the West and demonstrated its readiness to utilize violence indiscriminately.

One response could be the resolve to bomb them back into the stone age.  But in actuality that would be neither practical, effective or wise.  Another response would be to tell them how sorry we are that they are angry, how committed we are not to use violence and they have nothing to fear from us so why can't we just all sit down and make nice.  That also would be futile and ineffective if we really want to protect people from having violence visited upon them.

Don't forget, someone willing to give his life for his cause will be willing to give your life for his cause.

Looking at the root causes of this conflict is useful, but only if we are willing to look at all the roots.  To look only at what the West in general and the US in particular have contributed would give a very limited perspective on why the conflict, be inadequate to resolve the conflicts that have led to violence, and in the end be a sort of perverted hubris as though only we can be powerful enough and bad enough to cause such havoc.  Iraq was majorly dysfunctional long before we blundered in to depose Hussein and seek out WMDs.  I'm sorry but I can hardly wish for the good old days when the violence and terror in Iraq came from the rule of one blood thirsty, sadistic and corrupt dictator and his family rather than from many warlords and factions. 

Some of the roots go back to the end of WWI when the European powers carved up the remnants of the Ottoman empire to suit themselves with hardly a thought to the realities of the people and territories involved.  And, naturally, before that to the European and primarily British empire building and exploitation before that.  England was meddling in the politics of southern Asia long before the US had much interest in the area.

Some of the roots go back to fault lines within the Muslim community and their inability to come to terms with each other.  Already in the second generation of Muslims there was a schism whose consequences are a major contributor to the unrest and violence today.  One of the fundamental principles of Islam laid down by Muhammad was that Muslim does not kill Muslim.  Let's not forget that majority of the casualties and fatalities in the violence in the Middle East and the violence elsewhere that has its roots in the Middle East are Muslims.  They violate their own religion in the name of their religion.  (Which should not surprise Christians who have fought among ourselves extensively and viciously.) This is, in part, a civil war in Islam that has been going on for well over a millennium.  We in the West did not start it although we may have contributed to it with our blundering.

A third source of the conflict lies in tribalism and ethnic conflict.  Generally mid-Eastern Arabs hold more loyalty to their tribe and clan than to their country.  Their country often was imposed upon them by outside powers.  (See the conclusion of WWI.)  But their tribe and clan are what are important.  And sometimes that tribal rivalry is exacerbated the other tribe being a different flavor of Islam (Sunni v. Shia) sometimes not, just that they are a different tribe and rival for power, resources and land.  Add to that ethnic rivalries, Iran is not Arab but Persian.

Ultimately, a diplomatic solution has the best hope of long lasting solutions to the conflicts between the Middle East and the West as well as within the Middle East.  But such solution will depend on all sides being willing to compromise and allowing others to have what is important to them rather than simply grabbing what their own group wants i.e. all of it, regional dominance and ability to dictate terms to the rest of the world. 

But military action will also be necessary.  Non-combatant are very much a part of this conflict, as pawns in strategy, as subjects of genocidal ethnic and religious cleansing and the like.  To refuse military intervention is to simply allow those who find themselves in the way to be slaughtered at will.  Furthermore, so long as participants see the possibility of military victory they see no need for a negotiated settlement that will inevitable gain them less than they hope to gain by force of arms.  What is needed is to demonstrate that force of arms will not gain them their goals.

Military action will not solve the problems of the Middle East that are spilling over into the rest of the world.  But I see no alternative to them being an element in the solutions.

Simple fixes rarely work for complex problems.
Title: Re: The holiday that hurts
Post by: LutherMan on November 16, 2015, 11:48:27 AM
Church a ‘safe place’ for veterans

By Donald E.H. Marshall
 
Like so many my age (a baby boomer), I find myself “sandwiched” between generations—and with a different attitude toward military service in defense of our country.
 
My father was a navigator in the U.S. Air Force, flying missions near the end of World War II and over Korea. His two brothers, my uncles, served in World War II as well­—one was killed in Europe and the other died relatively young of complications from wounds received in the war.
 
Growing up in the ’60s, I would come to protest war rather than fight one.
So it was a surprise, to say the least, when my son signed up for the Oklahoma Army National Guard after getting a college degree. He eventually became part of its large contingent sent to the war in Afghanistan.
 
My son, Michael, served his tour as a foot soldier in one of the war’s more dangerous provinces, experiencing numerous engagements, retrieving the remains of fellow soldiers who were victims of a roadside bomb, and witnessing things he has struggled with, in various ways, since his return a few years ago.
 
Within three months of coming home, my son attended a handful of funeral services for comrades who took their lives after returning to the states.
 
As an ELCA pastor, I continue to struggle with issues related to military involvement in other countries andwith armed conflict in general. I haven’t been a proponent of our recent wars. But at the same time I have, as you might imagine, come to develop strong feelings concerning the country’s support—communities of faith included—of the troops sent to wage them.
 
Of course it’s about more than simply thanking those who put their lives on the line or displaying the flag on one’s lapel or even standing and singing the standard patriotic hymn on the Sunday closest to a national holiday.
 
Perhaps the church, especially, is being called to offer the veteran a safe place—indeed, worship space—to fearlessly address the often delicate spiritual and moral issues he or she is dealing with, sometimes long after the fact. As faith communities we, even more than Veterans Affairs, are gifted with the resources best able to accomplish this, meeting the warrior returning from battle with the message of reconciliation most needed. - See more at: http://www.elca.org/en/Living-Lutheran/Stories/2015/11/151111-Church-a-safe-place-for-veterans#sthash.I8Uzly3i.dpuf
Title: Re: The holiday that hurts
Post by: Buckeye Deaconess on November 16, 2015, 12:41:44 PM
The LCMS has a solid program in place to serve personnel currently serving as well as veterans . . . Operation Barnabas.

www.lcms.org/operationbarnabas
Title: Re: The holiday that hurts
Post by: Donald_Kirchner on November 21, 2016, 12:03:47 PM
Something that I'd posted on FB on Veterans' Day. Reworked it a bit, and the local newspaper published it yesterday:

http://www.bemidjipioneer.com/opinion/commentary/4163753-don-kirchner-hacksaw-ridge-pays-tribute-war-heroes
Title: Re: The holiday that hurts
Post by: gan ainm on November 21, 2016, 01:57:26 PM
Something that I'd posted on FB on Veterans' Day. Reworked it a bit, and the local newspaper published it yesterday:

http://www.bemidjipioneer.com/opinion/commentary/4163753-don-kirchner-hacksaw-ridge-pays-tribute-war-heroes

Thank you for that post.  Poignant.  My dad was in the 45th Division.  He told almost no stories about his journey through northern Africa and Sicily.  He was wounded twice and almost died; sent home before Anzio and Italy.  Luckily, he recovered and he and my mom conceived me.  Interestingly, one of the 45th top commanders was Omar Bradley, a distant relative of my wife.  Thanks be to God for those who placed their lives in jeopardy and fought for our freedom.  Also, thanks be to God for those who chose not to place their lives in jeopardy for our freedom.  We can learn from both - we can learn what to do, what not to do, and how and to whom to give thanks.  We are all children of God.
Title: Re: The holiday that hurts
Post by: Charles Austin on November 21, 2016, 02:03:41 PM
 Your article is a good witness, Pastor Kirchner.  I look forward to seeing the movie that pays tribute to a man who was a hero without carrying a weapon  and who acted on his conscience in the face of severe difficulty.
Title: Re: The holiday that hurts
Post by: Dave Benke on November 22, 2016, 08:16:16 AM
Something that I'd posted on FB on Veterans' Day. Reworked it a bit, and the local newspaper published it yesterday:

http://www.bemidjipioneer.com/opinion/commentary/4163753-don-kirchner-hacksaw-ridge-pays-tribute-war-heroes

Great testimony!

Dave Benke