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ALPB => Your Turn => Topic started by: LutherMan on September 24, 2015, 01:54:30 PM

Title: Least favorite hymns in the hymnal...
Post by: LutherMan on September 24, 2015, 01:54:30 PM
Two that I really dislike are How great thou art and Amazing grace.  I also dislike Precious Lord...
Title: Re: Least favorite hymns in the hymnal...
Post by: Fletch on September 24, 2015, 02:48:05 PM
Two that I really dislike are How great thou art and Amazing grace.  I also dislike Precious Lord...

If you don't mind, could you share why you dislike these hymns?  Thanks.

... Fletch
Title: Re: Least favorite hymns in the hymnal...
Post by: LutherMan on September 24, 2015, 03:09:05 PM
No real theology in them...
Title: Re: Least favorite hymns in the hymnal...
Post by: peterm on September 24, 2015, 03:37:50 PM
If you had included "In the Garden" you would hit the most popular funeral hymns around :)
Title: Re: Least favorite hymns in the hymnal...
Post by: Donald_Kirchner on September 24, 2015, 03:54:29 PM
If you had included "In the Garden" you would hit the most popular funeral hymns around :)

That's the one out of the four that will not be sung at any funeral over which I preside. And when I explain why I never get any flack.
Title: Re: Least favorite hymns in the hymnal...
Post by: peterm on September 24, 2015, 04:05:11 PM
At the recent funeral of the oldest member of my country church we sang the following hymns

I know that my Redeemer Lives

O Day Full of Grace

Jesus Loves Me (included for the great grandkids at her instruction)

Before she died she told me that she would not cotton to (The deceased did this...said this....etc.)  I was told to preach the Gospel and let it do its thing. 
Title: Re: Least favorite hymns in the hymnal...
Post by: Donald_Kirchner on September 24, 2015, 04:07:53 PM
At the recent funeral of the oldest member of my country church we sang the following hymns

I know that my Redeemer Lives

O Day Full of Grace

Jesus Loves Me (included for the great grandkids at her instruction)

Before she died she told me that she would not cotton to (The deceased did this...said this....etc.)  I was told to preach the Gospel and let it do its thing.

<like>
Title: Re: Least favorite hymns in the hymnal...
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on September 24, 2015, 04:19:33 PM
If you had included "In the Garden" you would hit the most popular funeral hymns around :)

That's the one out of the four that will not be sung at any funeral over which I preside. And when I explain why I never get any flack.


What's your explanation? Do you object to this versified version of John 20 when Mary went to the garden alone and Jesus talked and walked with her?
Title: Re: Least favorite hymns in the hymnal...
Post by: Donald_Kirchner on September 24, 2015, 04:22:35 PM
If you had included "In the Garden" you would hit the most popular funeral hymns around :)

That's the one out of the four that will not be sung at any funeral over which I preside. And when I explain why I never get any flack.

Do you object to this versified version of John 20 when Mary went to the garden alone and Jesus talked and walked with her?

I deny your premise.
Title: Re: Least favorite hymns in the hymnal...
Post by: Rev. Matthew Uttenreither on September 24, 2015, 04:43:36 PM
Earth and All Stars
Title: Re: Least favorite hymns in the hymnal...
Post by: Fletch on September 24, 2015, 04:45:51 PM
No real theology in them...

Thanks, I guessed that was the answer and thanks for responding to confirm.  On a side note, I guess you don't like good old Methodist Revivalism either?  ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

... Fletch
Title: Re: Least favorite hymns in the hymnal...
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on September 24, 2015, 04:54:59 PM
If you had included "In the Garden" you would hit the most popular funeral hymns around :)

That's the one out of the four that will not be sung at any funeral over which I preside. And when I explain why I never get any flack.

Do you object to this versified version of John 20 when Mary went to the garden alone and Jesus talked and walked with her?

I deny your premise.


You don't believe "In the Garden" is a hymn about Mary's encounter with the risen Jesus in the garden?


This is what one website says about it:

C. Austin Miles (1868-1946) was a pharmacist turned hymn writer and church music director. He was also an amateur photographer. One day in March, 1912, while in his dark room waiting for film to develop, Miles had a profound spiritual experience in which he saw an incredible vision of Mary Magdalene visiting the empty tomb. He saw her leave the tomb and walk into a garden where she met the Master and heard Him speak her name.


When Miles came to himself his nerves were vibrating and his muscles tense; the words to a new song were filling his mind and heart. He quickly wrote out the lyrics to In The Garden and later that evening composed the musical score. The song was published that same year and became a theme song of the Billy Sunday evangelistic crusades.


http://www.sharefaith.com/guide/Christian-Music/hymns-the-songs-and-the-stories/in-the-garden,-the-story.html
Title: Re: Least favorite hymns in the hymnal...
Post by: Donald_Kirchner on September 24, 2015, 05:03:43 PM
If you had included "In the Garden" you would hit the most popular funeral hymns around :)

That's the one out of the four that will not be sung at any funeral over which I preside. And when I explain why I never get any flack.

Do you object to this versified version of John 20 when Mary went to the garden alone and Jesus talked and walked with her?

I deny your premise.


You don't believe "In the Garden" is a hymn about Mary's encounter with the risen Jesus in the garden?


This is what one website says about it:

C. Austin Miles (1868-1946) was a pharmacist turned hymn writer and church music director. He was also an amateur photographer. One day in March, 1912, while in his dark room waiting for film to develop, Miles had a profound spiritual experience in which he saw an incredible vision of Mary Magdalene visiting the empty tomb. He saw her leave the tomb and walk into a garden where she met the Master and heard Him speak her name.


When Miles came to himself his nerves were vibrating and his muscles tense; the words to a new song were filling his mind and heart. He quickly wrote out the lyrics to In The Garden and later that evening composed the musical score. The song was published that same year and became a theme song of the Billy Sunday evangelistic crusades.


http://www.sharefaith.com/guide/Christian-Music/hymns-the-songs-and-the-stories/in-the-garden,-the-story.html

I submit that Miles may have received some sort of inspiration to write his hymn.

But no, I don't. And this information gives me yet another reason to not have it done in a Lutheran church.
Title: Re: Least favorite hymns in the hymnal...
Post by: RDPreus on September 24, 2015, 05:22:38 PM
Why did the Norwegian Lutheran think that God's name was Andy?

"Andy walks with me, Andy talks with me, . . ."
Title: Re: Least favorite hymns in the hymnal...
Post by: Donald_Kirchner on September 24, 2015, 05:31:13 PM
Rolf,

Tell us the one about the guy visiting a Lutheran Church and asking the "receptionist" if the bread and wine has become the body and Blood of Christ.
Title: Re: Least favorite hymns in the hymnal...
Post by: RDPreus on September 24, 2015, 05:35:59 PM
Let's see if I remember . . .

The visitor heard the pastor consecrate the elements and he whispered to the parishioner standing next to him, "Is that the body and blood of Christ?"  He replied, "Not yet."  Then the parishioner went up and communed and returned and sat down next to the visitor who asked him, "Is that the body and blood of Christ?"  He replied, "Not any more."
Title: Re: Least favorite hymns in the hymnal...
Post by: LutherMan on September 24, 2015, 05:40:04 PM
No real theology in them...

Thanks, I guessed that was the answer and thanks for responding to confirm.  On a side note, I guess you don't like good old Methodist Revivalism either?  ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

... Fletch
;D
Title: Re: Least favorite hymns in the hymnal...
Post by: Jeremy Loesch on September 24, 2015, 05:40:15 PM
I will say that Earth and All Stars has been totally redeemed by the Easter hymn Alleluia! Jesus is Risen. 

For personal reasons I'm not a huge fan of Rejoice O Pilgrim Throng.  I don't know why. It just doesn't do much for me.  It still gets used a fair bit because I know there are people who do like it.

Jeremy 
Title: Re: Least favorite hymns in the hymnal...
Post by: Matt Hummel on September 24, 2015, 05:46:48 PM
If you had included "In the Garden" you would hit the most popular funeral hymns around :)

That's the one out of the four that will not be sung at any funeral over which I preside. And when I explain why I never get any flack.

Do you object to this versified version of John 20 when Mary went to the garden alone and Jesus talked and walked with her?

I deny your premise.

It turns out that in the Garden IS about Mary Magdalene encountering the Risen Christ on the first Easter. The author was a Philly pharmacist. NPR did something on this a few years ago. Gave me  new appreciation for it.
Title: Re: Least favorite hymns in the hymnal...
Post by: LutherMan on September 24, 2015, 05:48:14 PM
Why did the Norwegian Lutheran think that God's name was Andy?

"Andy walks with me, Andy talks with me, . . ."
Dumb Norski...
 ;)
Title: Re: Least favorite hymns in the hymnal...
Post by: Matt Hummel on September 24, 2015, 05:49:45 PM
Also, given the story behind Precious Lord, what's the beef?
Title: Re: Least favorite hymns in the hymnal...
Post by: LutherMan on September 24, 2015, 05:52:24 PM
I will say that Earth and All Stars has been totally redeemed by the Easter hymn Alleluia! Jesus is Risen. 

For personal reasons I'm not a huge fan of Rejoice O Pilgrim Throng.  I don't know why. It just doesn't do much for me.  It still gets used a fair bit because I know there are people who do like it.

Jeremy
I'm not familiar with that one.  Was it in TLH?
Title: Re: Least favorite hymns in the hymnal...
Post by: LutherMan on September 24, 2015, 05:54:24 PM
Also, given the story behind Precious Lord, what's the beef?
A muslim or Jew could easily sing it...
Zero Christology in it...
Title: Mother's Funeral
Post by: James S. Rustad on September 24, 2015, 05:56:19 PM
My mother planned her own funeral about a year before she died.  She died unexpectedly three months after open heart surgery for aortic valve replacement.  Cause of death seemed unrelated to the surgery.

Recession began with the funeral home team turning the casket and getting ready to leave.  Mom's final song began -- "Will the Circle Be Unbroken?".  No one moved to leave and the entire congregation joined in on the chorus after each verse.
Title: Re: Least favorite hymns in the hymnal...
Post by: Matt Hummel on September 24, 2015, 06:00:04 PM
What I find so much fun about some of you LCMS folks is that it is a matter of mere contingency that kept you from being Latin Mass Catholics. I see the same righteous certitude, just played out in a different key. :) Kinda sweet, actually.
Title: Re: Least favorite hymns in the hymnal...
Post by: LutherMan on September 24, 2015, 06:11:42 PM
What I find so much fun about some of you LCMS folks is that it is a matter of mere contingency that kept you from being Latin Mass Catholics. I see the same righteous certitude, just played out in a different key. :) Kinda sweet, actually.
Glad we can accommodate you.   I have always liked you, even when you were an ELCA pastor... 8)
Title: Re: Least favorite hymns in the hymnal...
Post by: Donald_Kirchner on September 24, 2015, 06:12:53 PM
If you had included "In the Garden" you would hit the most popular funeral hymns around :)

That's the one out of the four that will not be sung at any funeral over which I preside. And when I explain why I never get any flack.

Do you object to this versified version of John 20 when Mary went to the garden alone and Jesus talked and walked with her?

I deny your premise.

It turns out that in the Garden IS about Mary Magdalene encountering the Risen Christ on the first Easter. The author was a Philly pharmacist. NPR did something on this a few years ago. Gave me  new appreciation for it.

No, it is not. It's about Miles' vision/dream.
Title: Re: Least favorite hymns in the hymnal...
Post by: LutherMan on September 24, 2015, 06:25:48 PM
What a friend, Onward Christian soldiers and Stand Up, Stand Up, are more dogs...
Title: Re: Least favorite hymns in the hymnal...
Post by: LutherMan on September 24, 2015, 06:26:48 PM
In the garden has never been in a Lutheran hymnal, has it?
Title: Re: Least favorite hymns in the hymnal...
Post by: Donald_Kirchner on September 24, 2015, 06:33:30 PM
In the garden has never been in a Lutheran hymnal, has it?

None of ours. It's a Baptist communion hymn.
Title: Re: Least favorite hymns in the hymnal...
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on September 24, 2015, 06:41:50 PM
If you had included "In the Garden" you would hit the most popular funeral hymns around :)

That's the one out of the four that will not be sung at any funeral over which I preside. And when I explain why I never get any flack.

Do you object to this versified version of John 20 when Mary went to the garden alone and Jesus talked and walked with her?

I deny your premise.

It turns out that in the Garden IS about Mary Magdalene encountering the Risen Christ on the first Easter. The author was a Philly pharmacist. NPR did something on this a few years ago. Gave me  new appreciation for it.

No, it is not. It's about Miles' vision/dream.


Or about Miles' imagining what happened in the garden. Many, many sermons give what the preacher imagined the biblical events were like, e.g., feelings of the disciples during the storm at sea.


BTW, since it's not in any of our hymnals, it's not really a proper answer to the original question.
Title: Re: Least favorite hymns in the hymnal...
Post by: LutherMan on September 24, 2015, 06:42:53 PM
In the garden has never been in a Lutheran hymnal, has it?

None of ours. It's a Baptist communion hymn.
A real dog of a song...
Title: Re: Least favorite hymns in the hymnal...
Post by: LutherMan on September 24, 2015, 06:44:01 PM
BTW, since it's not in any of our hymnals, it's not really a proper answer to the original question.
Good answer...
Title: Re: Least favorite hymns in the hymnal...
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on September 24, 2015, 06:57:48 PM
Also, given the story behind Precious Lord, what's the beef?
For those who may not know the story.


In 1932 Thomas A. Dorsey, a black gospel singer, not the white, trombone player, Thomas Dorsey, was singing at a revival in St. Louis. The second night of the revival the crowd kept asking him to sing again and again. When he finally was allowed to stop, a messenger boy ran up with a Western Union telegram that said, “Your wife just died.” The crowd around him were happy, clapping and singing and he was devastated.

When he got back to his home in Chicago, not only had his wife died, but so had their new-born son, their first child.

He says, “For days I closeted myself. I felt that God had done me an injustice. I didn’t want to serve him anymore or write gospel songs.”

A friend, who was a professor took him to a room at the college. This is what Dorsey writes:

"He left me there, alone in a room with a piano. It was quiet; the lat evening sun crept through the curtained windows. I sat down at the piano, and my hands began to browse over the keys. Something happened to me. I felt at peace. I felt as though I could reach out and touch God. I found myself playing a melody, one I’d never heard or played before, and words came into my head - they just seemed to fall into place."

The words were “Precious Lord, take my hand.” A song was born.

Scholars now believe that he was mistaken about never hearing the melody before. It is very similar to, Maitland, written by George Allen (1812-1877) for the poem, "Must Jesus Bear the Cross Alone."


Perhaps Jews and Muslims could sing the song and "Lord" could refer to God.


At the same time many Christians sing, "God bless American," which was written by a Jew. The "God" he had in mind was certainly not the Trinity of Christianity, but that doesn't stop us from singing it, and thinking about our God.


"Precious Lord," was written by a Christian about his own personal relationship with Jesus during a very dark time in his life. Christians can certainly sing it knowing that it is about being helped by Jesus in our times of despair. If others happen to sing it and thing about another god, so be it.
Title: Re: Least favorite hymns in the hymnal...
Post by: pastorg1@aol.com on September 24, 2015, 07:03:29 PM
Noel
Title: Re: Least favorite hymns in the hymnal...
Post by: Eileen Smith on September 24, 2015, 07:11:39 PM
I the Lord of Sea and Sky
Eagle's Wings
Title: Re: Least favorite hymns in the hymnal...
Post by: Donald_Kirchner on September 24, 2015, 07:26:03 PM
At the same time many Christians sing, "God bless American," which was written by a Jew. The "God" he had in mind was certainly not the Trinity of Christianity, but that doesn't stop us from singing it, and thinking about our God.

Thank you for making my point about "In the Garden."
Title: Re: Least favorite hymns in the hymnal...
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on September 24, 2015, 07:35:46 PM
At the same time many Christians sing, "God bless American," which was written by a Jew. The "God" he had in mind was certainly not the Trinity of Christianity, but that doesn't stop us from singing it, and thinking about our God.

Thank you for making my point about "In the Garden."


When I came to understand it as a picture of Mary in the Garden with the risen Jesus, I found it less objectionable. (We wrote a paraphrase of it when we dedicated a new library in the basement at the Denver House of Studies. It began, "I come to the basement alone, while I'm still a little bit sober.")
Title: Re: Least favorite hymns in the hymnal...
Post by: Matt Hummel on September 24, 2015, 07:42:27 PM
If you had included "In the Garden" you would hit the most popular funeral hymns around :)

That's the one out of the four that will not be sung at any funeral over which I preside. And when I explain why I never get any flack.

Do you object to this versified version of John 20 when Mary went to the garden alone and Jesus talked and walked with her?

I deny your premise.

It turns out that in the Garden IS about Mary Magdalene encountering the Risen Christ on the first Easter. The author was a Philly pharmacist. NPR did something on this a few years ago. Gave me  new appreciation for it.

No, it is not. It's about Miles' vision/dream.

So A Mighty Fortress sucks because it isn't a psalm, but it is Luther's impression of one, right?
Title: Re: Least favorite hymns in the hymnal...
Post by: Matt Hummel on September 24, 2015, 07:44:29 PM
I the Lord of Sea and Sky
Eagle's Wings

If you had mentioned Borning Cry, you would have hit the trifecta! :)
Title: Re: Least favorite hymns in the hymnal...
Post by: Donald_Kirchner on September 24, 2015, 07:49:31 PM
If you had included "In the Garden" you would hit the most popular funeral hymns around :)

That's the one out of the four that will not be sung at any funeral over which I preside. And when I explain why I never get any flack.

Do you object to this versified version of John 20 when Mary went to the garden alone and Jesus talked and walked with her?

I deny your premise.

It turns out that in the Garden IS about Mary Magdalene encountering the Risen Christ on the first Easter. The author was a Philly pharmacist. NPR did something on this a few years ago. Gave me  new appreciation for it.

No, it is not. It's about Miles' vision/dream.

So A Mighty Fortress sucks because it isn't a psalm, but it is Luther's impression of one, right?

No
Title: Re: Least favorite hymns in the hymnal...
Post by: Donald_Kirchner on September 24, 2015, 07:51:54 PM
I the Lord of Sea and Sky
Eagle's Wings

If you had mentioned Morning Cry, you would have hit the trifecta! :)

Perhaps you meant "Borning Cry"?
Title: Re: Least favorite hymns in the hymnal...
Post by: Mike in Pennsylvania on September 24, 2015, 07:53:26 PM
"In the Garden" is in Gracia Grindal's Reclaim hymnal, #160.  Of course that isn't anybody's official hymnal that I know about.
Title: Re: Least favorite hymns in the hymnal...
Post by: Charles Austin on September 24, 2015, 08:27:43 PM
Sorry, folks, I just see a lot of pretentious, smug, arrogant and "we-gotta-be-pure" foolishness going on here.
It is possible to pick apart the theology of almost any hymn and find cracks in the walls of its verses. And it is doubly easy to elevate our high-falutin' "theology" above the piety that moves and truly inspires our parishioners.
"How great thou art" - I can hardly imagine what anyone would find "wrong" about this hymn. Some will carp that Billy Graham "stole" it, but it began in Swedish Lutheranism. One of my all-time favorites.
"Amazing Grace" - Over-used, to be sure. Played too often on bagpipes. But what's wrong with it? Nothing.
"I come to the garden alone" - Emotionally challenged Lutherans will have a problem with this one, but nuts to them; it's one of my favorites.
"Earth and all stars" - You don't like the inanimate objects praising God, do you? I'll admit that the poetry doesn't quite reach Wordsworth, but come on, it's not so bad.
"What a Friend We Have in Jesus" - If you let "Lutheran theology" or some Christological pickiness cause you to diss this hymn, you are cutting yourself off from something which a whole lot of people like and which is great fun to sing. You tell me what's wrong with the verses. Again. Nothing.
"Onward Christian soldiers" - Fie on those who say it's militaristic. One of my favorites.
"Stand up stand up for Jesus" - See my comments on "What a Friend." This is a great hymn.
"Borning cry" - OK, I don't care much for this one, 'cause you tweak it a bit, back a good singer with a Country-Western band and you have a love song that drips barbecue sauce.
Title: Re: Least favorite hymns in the hymnal...
Post by: George Erdner on September 24, 2015, 08:35:12 PM
When I was preparing the Power Point slides for my church, and had to prepare the new, revised "gender neutralized" ELW versions of hymns, I came to loath every hymn that was gender neutralized in ELW. Some of the convoluted wording that they went through just to not refer to God as "Him" was ridiculous. They were so terrible that my mind automatically rejected them and expelled them from my memory.
Title: Re: Least favorite hymns in the hymnal...
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on September 24, 2015, 09:33:13 PM
When I was preparing the Power Point slides for my church, and had to prepare the new, revised "gender neutralized" ELW versions of hymns, I came to loath every hymn that was gender neutralized in ELW. Some of the convoluted wording that they went through just to not refer to God as "Him" was ridiculous. They were so terrible that my mind automatically rejected them and expelled them from my memory.


I believe LBW did more tweaking with lyrics than ELW. In some cases, ELW went back to older versions, e.g., uses "thees" and "thous". If you want to explore a hymnal that went overboard with gender neutralizing, check out UCC's New Century Hymnal. It makes what was done in LBW and ELW look very tame.
Title: Re: Least favorite hymns in the hymnal...
Post by: Tom Eckstein on September 24, 2015, 09:47:13 PM
Also, given the story behind Precious Lord, what's the beef?
A muslim or Jew could easily sing it...
Zero Christology in it...

Please understand, I'm all for having solid theology and Christology in our hymns.  But to reject "Precious Lord" simply because the words themselves have no explicit Christology could easily lead one to reject the singing of the some of the language of the Psalms for the same reason.

Not every hymn's language has to come off as though it were taken from systematic theology textbook.  There is a place for devotional language in hymns like "Precious Lord" as long as those singing it have had the proper catechesis to understand the substance behind such devotional language.
Title: Re: Least favorite hymns in the hymnal...
Post by: Dan_Biles on September 24, 2015, 09:49:44 PM
If you had included "In the Garden" you would hit the most popular funeral hymns around :)
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Posted by: Tom Eckstein
« on: Today at 09:47:13 PM » Insert Quote
Quote from: LutherMan on Today at 05:54:24 PM

That's the one out of the four that will not be sung at any funeral over which I preside. And when I explain why I never get any flack

I regard the hymn as sheer gnosticism.  But if a family wants it in a funeral, fine by me.




What's your explanation? Do you object to this versified version of John 20 when Mary went to the garden alone and Jesus talked and walked with her?
Title: Re: Least favorite hymns in the hymnal...
Post by: Dan_Biles on September 24, 2015, 09:56:31 PM

"Amazing Grace" - Over-used, to be sure. Played too often on bagpipes. But what's wrong with it? Nothing.

"What a Friend We Have in Jesus" - If you let "Lutheran theology" or some Christological pickiness cause you to diss this hymn, you are cutting yourself off from something which a whole lot of people like and which is great fun to sing. You tell me what's wrong with the verses. Again. Nothing.

"Onward Christian soldiers" - Fie on those who say it's militaristic. One of my favorites.


"Onward Christian Soldiers" surely recalls Ephesians 6. 
"Amazing Grace" is attributed to John Newton and reflects his conversion from a former life of slave trading and licentious living.
"What a Friend" was originally a poem written by Joseph Scriven to his mother in time of sickness; it reflects his faith in God despite twice losing a fiance to death just before their wedding.
All fine hymns, IMHO.

Title: Re: Least favorite hymns in the hymnal...
Post by: J. Thomas Shelley on September 24, 2015, 11:11:02 PM

"Onward Christian soldiers" - Fie on those who say it's militaristic. One of my favorites.


"Onward Christian Soldiers" surely recalls Ephesians 6. 


Those who go into a funk over militaristic imagery had best never set foot into the Orthodox church where I am a member, for they will find the Iconostasis flanked and guarded by larger-than-life Icons of four military saints:  George the trophy-bearer and Demetrios the mhyrr-streaming on the left; and Theodore the Soldier and Mercurios on the right.  And, yes, they are brandishing weapons.
Title: Re: Least favorite hymns in the hymnal...
Post by: LCMS87 on September 24, 2015, 11:36:09 PM
Also, given the story behind Precious Lord, what's the beef?

I agree with Pr. Eckstein that Precious Lord can be profitably used. 

On the other hand, I tend to judge hymns on their texts, not the stories behind them.  The text is what we sing.  If it's necessary to know the story behind the text to support its use, then that hymn can be set aside in favor of stronger ones that can stand on their own.  There are plenty of strong hymns out there.  Why pass them by in favor of mediocre texts?
Title: Re: Least favorite hymns in the hymnal...
Post by: SomeoneWrites on September 25, 2015, 12:08:09 AM
I did some ministry at a nursing home and I hated most of the hymns we did there. 
In the garden. 
Softly and Tenderly Jesus Is calling.
God be with you till we meet again.
Pretty much anything that had a chorus. 
I had trouble with schmaltzy stuff. 
There are always some exceptions.

As far as what's been in a Lutheran Hymnal
I can echo that What a Friend we have in Jesus was on my bottom list.
I've never heard Onward Christian Soldiers set to a sermon on Ephesians (or similar) where it belongs.  I usually heard it on memorial day or something like that. 

My least favorite is Jesus, Savior, Pilot Me. 
The lyrics are less than what Be Still, My Soul does in one verse.
The tune is like Wrong of Ages. 

Title: Re: Least favorite hymns in the hymnal...
Post by: Charles Austin on September 25, 2015, 03:56:03 AM
The atheist doesn't like "Softly and Tenderly Jesus Is calling" and "God be with you till we meet again" and "Jesus, Savior, Pilot Me" and "What a Friend We Have In Jesus." All the more reason for me (and thousands of others) to keep those on our top 40 list.

Title: Re: Least favorite hymns in the hymnal...
Post by: LutherMan on September 25, 2015, 06:01:45 AM
Also, given the story behind Precious Lord, what's the beef?
A muslim or Jew could easily sing it...
Zero Christology in it...

Please understand, I'm all for having solid theology and Christology in our hymns.  But to reject "Precious Lord" simply because the words themselves have no explicit Christology could easily lead one to reject the singing of the some of the language of the Psalms for the same reason.

Not every hymn's language has to come off as though it were taken from systematic theology textbook.  There is a place for devotional language in hymns like "Precious Lord" as long as those singing it have had the proper catechesis to understand the substance behind such devotional language.
Problem is that most at funerals are not catechized.  This is a funeral hymn...
Title: Re: Least favorite hymns in the hymnal...
Post by: SomeoneWrites on September 25, 2015, 06:49:22 AM
The atheist doesn't like "Softly and Tenderly Jesus Is calling" and "God be with you till we meet again" and "Jesus, Savior, Pilot Me" and "What a Friend We Have In Jesus." All the more reason for me (and thousands of others) to keep those on our top 40 list.

Please, sir. The thread is "Least favorite hymns."  I mentioned my least favorite.
I didn't like them when I was in ministry either.  The ones in the Lutheran hymnal I mentioned I didn't like growing up.  I don't like them now. 

I still think there's a lot of very good hymns. 
Title: Re: Least favorite hymns in the hymnal...
Post by: Norman Teigen on September 25, 2015, 07:04:01 AM
I don't care for 'The Church's One Foundation."  A verse for this hymn comes out of  the English  Army from World War One.  Fred Karnow was a popular British comedic character, a bumbler, a Barney Fyfe, Sad Sack.

We are Fred Karnow's Army, the Ragtime Infantry.
We cannot fight, we cannot shoot, no earthly good are we.
But when we get to Ber-lin, the Kaiser he will say:
'Hoch, hoch, mein Gott, what a very fine lot,
That Ragtime Infantry.'
Title: Re: Least favorite hymns in the hymnal...
Post by: Eileen Smith on September 25, 2015, 08:08:16 AM
I did some ministry at a nursing home and I hated most of the hymns we did there. 
In the garden. 
Softly and Tenderly Jesus Is calling.
God be with you till we meet again.
Pretty much anything that had a chorus. 
I had trouble with schmaltzy stuff. 
There are always some exceptions.

As far as what's been in a Lutheran Hymnal
I can echo that What a Friend we have in Jesus was on my bottom list.
I've never heard Onward Christian Soldiers set to a sermon on Ephesians (or similar) where it belongs.  I usually heard it on memorial day or something like that. 

My least favorite is Jesus, Savior, Pilot Me. 
The lyrics are less than what Be Still, My Soul does in one verse.
The tune is like Wrong of Ages.

But the point is, did the hymns resonate with the residents of the nursing home.  Some of our members of our congregation visit a local nursing home monthly for a hymn sing and the hymns you mention are the hymns sung.  It is a special time for the residents as they love these hymns and are able to sing them. 

When I married, I moved from the Bronx to Queens and became a member of a church in Woodside.  I joined the Ruth Guild.  At every one of our meetings we sang What a Friend we Have in Jesus.  Well, I'll admit to being a bit of a hymn snob.  After a number of years I was elected president (believe me, it wasn't a hotly contested field).  So I thought I'd bring things up to the next level and we sang what I thought were "better" hymns.  The women sang - perhaps not with gusto - but they sang.  After months of this, one night I suggested we sing What a Friend as part of our devotion.  Did those women ever sing out.  A good lesson learned in general - and for choosing hymns:  it's not all about me. 

It is fun to vent some of our least favorite hymns.  But I am reminded of Bonhoeffer's little book on Psalms wherein he writes that a certain Psalm may not resonate with us on a certain day, but perhaps the person next to us needs to hear those words, to sing those words, to pray those words.  That's how I get through my least favorite hymns.
Title: Re: Least favorite hymns in the hymnal...
Post by: Satis Est on September 25, 2015, 08:16:48 AM
  My least favorite hymns in various hymnals:
           "Mothering God, You Gave Me Birth"  (ELW)
           "Not All the Blood of Beasts" (TLH)
           "All Are Welcome" (ELW)
           "A Stable Lamp is Lighted" (LBW)
           "For All the Saints" 

   They just don't appeal to me. Others can (and do) like them. Doesn't mean I have to!  8)

 

   
           
Title: Re: Least favorite hymns in the hymnal...
Post by: Donald_Kirchner on September 25, 2015, 08:40:16 AM
They just don't appeal to me. Others can (and do) like them. Doesn't mean I have to!  8)

Indeed. It's not always an issue of misleading theology as "In the Garden." Sometimes it's simply personal preference. If the family asks me to pick out a professional funeral hymn, more often than not it will be "For All the Saints."
Title: Re: Least favorite hymns in the hymnal...
Post by: SomeoneWrites on September 25, 2015, 08:43:59 AM

But the point is, did the hymns resonate with the residents of the nursing home.  Some of our members of our congregation visit a local nursing home monthly for a hymn sing and the hymns you mention are the hymns sung.  It is a special time for the residents as they love these hymns and are able to sing them. 


I was, and still am, aware of the point.  I led those songs.   I sang them robustly and in tune. This was especially important when I worked with Alzheimer's patients.
And I've been chided for selecting less theologically sound songs. 
But regardless of the setting, liturgical or contemporary, camp or college - I always sang the songs with my best effort. 

Two others have been listed here as un-liked
For All the Saints
The Church's One Foundation
--- Two of my favorites.  But I'm not going to harp on them because they didn't like them. 

An easy way to get through a personal distaste for a hymn is to embrace it and learn to sing a different part.  That worked for everything but Jesus, Savior, Pilot Me. ;)
Title: Re: Least favorite hymns in the hymnal...
Post by: LutherMan on September 25, 2015, 08:50:33 AM

Two others have been listed here as un-liked
For All the Saints
The Church's One Foundation
--- Two of my favorites.  But I'm not going to harp on them because they didn't like them. 

Mine too...
Title: Re: Least favorite hymns in the hymnal...
Post by: Donald_Kirchner on September 25, 2015, 11:32:38 AM
The atheist doesn't like "Softly and Tenderly Jesus Is calling" and "God be with you till we meet again" and "Jesus, Savior, Pilot Me" and "What a Friend We Have In Jesus." All the more reason for me (and thousands of others) to keep those on our top 40 list.

The ad hominem of the day.  ::)
Title: Re: Least favorite hymns in the hymnal...
Post by: Tom Eckstein on September 25, 2015, 11:49:24 AM
Also, given the story behind Precious Lord, what's the beef?
A muslim or Jew could easily sing it...
Zero Christology in it...

Please understand, I'm all for having solid theology and Christology in our hymns.  But to reject "Precious Lord" simply because the words themselves have no explicit Christology could easily lead one to reject the singing of the some of the language of the Psalms for the same reason.

Not every hymn's language has to come off as though it were taken from systematic theology textbook.  There is a place for devotional language in hymns like "Precious Lord" as long as those singing it have had the proper catechesis to understand the substance behind such devotional language.
Problem is that most at funerals are not catechized.  This is a funeral hymn...

I agree that some (sometimes MANY) who attend funerals are not catechized or are not even Christian, for that matter.  However, if the one who died was a properly catechized Christian and chose "Precious Lord" for his/her funeral because he/she put theological and Christological substance behind those words - the this is a great opportunity for a pastor to proclaim that theological and Christological substance in reference to that hymn.  Funerals can be great evangelism opportunities!
Title: Re: Least favorite hymns in the hymnal...
Post by: LutherMan on September 25, 2015, 11:58:36 AM
Also, given the story behind Precious Lord, what's the beef?
A muslim or Jew could easily sing it...
Zero Christology in it...

Please understand, I'm all for having solid theology and Christology in our hymns.  But to reject "Precious Lord" simply because the words themselves have no explicit Christology could easily lead one to reject the singing of the some of the language of the Psalms for the same reason.

Not every hymn's language has to come off as though it were taken from systematic theology textbook.  There is a place for devotional language in hymns like "Precious Lord" as long as those singing it have had the proper catechesis to understand the substance behind such devotional language.
Problem is that most at funerals are not catechized.  This is a funeral hymn...

I agree that some (sometimes MANY) who attend funerals are not catechized or are not even Christian, for that matter.  However, if the one who died was a properly catechized Christian and chose "Precious Lord" for his/her funeral because he/she put theological and Christological substance behind those words - the this is a great opportunity for a pastor to proclaim that theological and Christological substance in reference to that hymn.  Funerals can be great evangelism opportunities!
My mother was a properly catechized WELSian Christian and chose "Precious Lord" for her funeral, I was dismayed by the choice.  Her funeral was about70/30 Lutheran/RC attendees.  Her grandkids all sang Amazing Grace, another stinker, IMO...
Title: Re: Least favorite hymns in the hymnal...
Post by: Michael Slusser on September 25, 2015, 12:12:31 PM
Please understand, I'm all for having solid theology and Christology in our hymns.  But to reject "Precious Lord" simply because the words themselves have no explicit Christology could easily lead one to reject the singing of the some of the language of the Psalms for the same reason.

Not every hymn's language has to come off as though it were taken from systematic theology textbook.  There is a place for devotional language in hymns like "Precious Lord" as long as those singing it have had the proper catechesis to understand the substance behind such devotional language.
Problem is that most at funerals are not catechized.  This is a funeral hymn...

I agree that some (sometimes MANY) who attend funerals are not catechized or are not even Christian, for that matter.  However, if the one who died was a properly catechized Christian and chose "Precious Lord" for his/her funeral because he/she put theological and Christological substance behind those words - the this is a great opportunity for a pastor to proclaim that theological and Christological substance in reference to that hymn.  Funerals can be great evangelism opportunities!
My mother was a properly catechized WELSian Christian and chose "Precious Lord" for her funeral, I was dismayed by the choice.  Her funeral was about70/30 Lutheran/RC attendees.  Her grandkids all sang Amazing Grace, another stinker, IMO...
There's something to be said for hymns that, instead of singing about God, are addressed to God in prayer. Jesus as our leader, the pioneer of our salvation, the good shepherd whom the faithful sheep willingly follow, is the one to whom christological expressions refer. "Take me home" is exactly right.

Peace,
Michael
Title: Re: Least favorite hymns in the hymnal...
Post by: BrotherBoris on September 25, 2015, 12:38:57 PM
Also, given the story behind Precious Lord, what's the beef?
A muslim or Jew could easily sing it...
Zero Christology in it...

Please understand, I'm all for having solid theology and Christology in our hymns.  But to reject "Precious Lord" simply because the words themselves have no explicit Christology could easily lead one to reject the singing of the some of the language of the Psalms for the same reason.

Not every hymn's language has to come off as though it were taken from systematic theology textbook.  There is a place for devotional language in hymns like "Precious Lord" as long as those singing it have had the proper catechesis to understand the substance behind such devotional language.
Problem is that most at funerals are not catechized.  This is a funeral hymn...

I agree that some (sometimes MANY) who attend funerals are not catechized or are not even Christian, for that matter.  However, if the one who died was a properly catechized Christian and chose "Precious Lord" for his/her funeral because he/she put theological and Christological substance behind those words - the this is a great opportunity for a pastor to proclaim that theological and Christological substance in reference to that hymn. Funerals can be great evangelism opportunities!

I'm one of those rare individuals who really believes the funeral is primarily for the spiritual benefit of the departed and not primarily an event to celebrate the deceased's life or an evangelism opportunity for the unchurched.
Title: Re: Least favorite hymns in the hymnal...
Post by: Donald_Kirchner on September 25, 2015, 12:56:11 PM
Also, given the story behind Precious Lord, what's the beef?
A muslim or Jew could easily sing it...
Zero Christology in it...

Please understand, I'm all for having solid theology and Christology in our hymns.  But to reject "Precious Lord" simply because the words themselves have no explicit Christology could easily lead one to reject the singing of the some of the language of the Psalms for the same reason.

Not every hymn's language has to come off as though it were taken from systematic theology textbook.  There is a place for devotional language in hymns like "Precious Lord" as long as those singing it have had the proper catechesis to understand the substance behind such devotional language.
Problem is that most at funerals are not catechized.  This is a funeral hymn...

I agree that some (sometimes MANY) who attend funerals are not catechized or are not even Christian, for that matter.  However, if the one who died was a properly catechized Christian and chose "Precious Lord" for his/her funeral because he/she put theological and Christological substance behind those words - the this is a great opportunity for a pastor to proclaim that theological and Christological substance in reference to that hymn. Funerals can be great evangelism opportunities!

I'm one of those rare individuals who really believes the funeral is primarily for the spiritual benefit of the departed and not primarily an event to celebrate the deceased's life or an evangelism opportunity for the unchurched.

"Refresh the soul that has now departed with heavenly consolation and joy, and fulfill for it all the gracious promises which in Your holy Word You have made to those who believe in You. Grant to the body a soft and quiet rest in the earth till the Last Day, when You will reunite body and soul and lead them into glory, so that the entire person who served You here may be filled with heavenly joy there." (Starck’s Prayer Book, Revised Concordia Edition, pg. 345 [Johann Friedrich Starck (1680-1756), published by CPH in English in 1921 and reprinted in 2009])

The funeral service in Lutheran Service Book has this prayer:

"Give to Your whole Church in heaven and on earth Your light and Your peace. . . . Grant that all who have been nourished by the holy body and blood of Your Son may be raised to immortality and incorruption to be seated with Him at Your heavenly banquet." [emphasis added]

I have never been entirely comfortable with this "the funeral is for the living and not the dead" view. And I certainly do not see the funeral as a celebration**.

Clearly, a funeral is an excellent opportunity to proclaim the gospel to those who come already crushed by the law. An it is an opportunity for evangelism. But I feel that it is important to play a part in ushering a dear saint from the Church Militant to the Church Triumphant'


**A very well-respected professor of mine, Dr. Jeffrey Gibbs, wrote the following in 2003:

"Five Things You Should Not Say at Funerals
...
Fifth: “This is not a funeral—it’s Craig’s victory celebration!” This is perhaps the most objectionable of all—and it is patently false, as even many unbelievers instinctively know. It is true, of course, that when a Christian dies, he is now “out of danger”—he can no longer be tempted. In addition, when tragic and prolonged physical or mental suffering precede the death of a Christian, there can be great relief and release for both the deceased and for those who loved him and have cared for him.

But who could even imagine saying that a funeral is a “victory” when it’s the funeral of a child, or of a young mother, or of a colleague and friend struck down in the midst of a vigorous and productive life? As a matter of fact, the death even of a Christian is always and only a sign that sin has not yet fully been abolished by the Lord Jesus Christ; the last enemy has not yet gone under His feet. As a matter of fact, death (which does not separate the deceased from the love of God in Christ) does separate the deceased from those who love him. Funerals are not victory celebrations. They are funerals. The grief is, in light of the Gospel, never grief without hope (1 Thess. 4:13). But it is still, ever and rightly—grief. For only on the Last Day will death be swallowed up in…victory (1 Cor. 15:54)."

http://www.csl.edu/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/October-2003.pdf
Title: Re: Least favorite hymns in the hymnal...
Post by: BrotherBoris on September 25, 2015, 12:59:35 PM
Also, given the story behind Precious Lord, what's the beef?
A muslim or Jew could easily sing it...
Zero Christology in it...

Please understand, I'm all for having solid theology and Christology in our hymns.  But to reject "Precious Lord" simply because the words themselves have no explicit Christology could easily lead one to reject the singing of the some of the language of the Psalms for the same reason.

Not every hymn's language has to come off as though it were taken from systematic theology textbook.  There is a place for devotional language in hymns like "Precious Lord" as long as those singing it have had the proper catechesis to understand the substance behind such devotional language.
Problem is that most at funerals are not catechized.  This is a funeral hymn...

I agree that some (sometimes MANY) who attend funerals are not catechized or are not even Christian, for that matter.  However, if the one who died was a properly catechized Christian and chose "Precious Lord" for his/her funeral because he/she put theological and Christological substance behind those words - the this is a great opportunity for a pastor to proclaim that theological and Christological substance in reference to that hymn. Funerals can be great evangelism opportunities!

I'm one of those rare individuals who really believes the funeral is primarily for the spiritual benefit of the departed and not primarily an event to celebrate the deceased's life or an evangelism opportunity for the unchurched.

"Refresh the soul that has now departed with heavenly consolation and joy, and fulfill for it all the gracious promises which in Your holy Word You have made to those who believe in You. Grant to the body a soft and quiet rest in the earth till the Last Day, when You will reunite body and soul and lead them into glory, so that the entire person who served You here may be filled with heavenly joy there." (Starck’s Prayer Book, Revised Concordia Edition, pg. 345 [Johann Friedrich Starck (1680-1756), published by CPH in English in 1921 and reprinted in 2009])

The funeral service in Lutheran Service Book has this prayer:

"Give to Your whole Church in heaven and on earth Your light and Your peace. . . . Grant that all who have been nourished by the holy body and blood of Your Son may be raised to immortality and incorruption to be seated with Him at Your heavenly banquet." [emphasis added]

I have never been entirely comfortable with this "the funeral is for the living and not the dead" view. And I certainly do not see the funeral as a celebration**.

Clearly, a funeral is an excellent opportunity to proclaim the gospel to those who come already crushed by the law. An it is an opportunity for evangelism. But I feel that it is important to play a part in ushering a dear saint from the Church Militant to the Church Triumphant'


**A very well-respected professor of mine, Dr. Jeffrey Gibbs, wrote the following in 2003:

"Five Things You Should Not Say at Funerals
...
Fifth: “This is not a funeral—it’s Craig’s victory celebration!” This is perhaps the most objectionable of all—and it is patently false, as even many unbelievers instinctively know. It is true, of course, that when a Christian dies, he is now “out of danger”—he can no longer be tempted. In addition, when tragic and prolonged physical or mental suffering precede the death of a Christian, there can be great relief and release for both the deceased and for those who loved him and have cared for him.

But who could even imagine saying that a funeral is a “victory” when it’s the funeral of a child, or of a young mother, or of a colleague and friend struck down in the midst of a vigorous and productive life? As a matter of fact, the death even of a Christian is always and only a sign that sin has not yet fully been abolished by the Lord Jesus Christ; the last enemy has not yet gone under His feet. As a matter of fact, death (which does not separate the deceased from the love of God in Christ) does separate the deceased from those who love him. Funerals are not victory celebrations. They are funerals. The grief is, in light of the Gospel, never grief without hope (1 Thess. 4:13). But it is still, ever and rightly—grief. For only on the Last Day will death be swallowed up in…victory (1 Cor. 15:54)."

http://www.csl.edu/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/October-2003.pdf

You make a fine point, Pastor Kirchner.  Good examples, too!
Title: Re: Least favorite hymns in the hymnal...
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on September 25, 2015, 01:04:26 PM
Although it's a slightly different topic, but closely related, by what criteria should we use to judge a hymn good or bad (a favorite or least favorite)? (I've also raised that question in regards to judging liturgies - what criteria should be used?


Often the criteria is, "I like it" or "I don't like it." I doubt that's the only thing that hymnal committee people use when selecting hymns for their publication.


On different polls I've seen, "How Great Thou Art" is sometimes at the top of both the best liked and least liked hymns.


I've suggested these three criteria for liturgies and I think that they also work for hymns.


1. Theological criteria - what do they say about God? We want the lyrics to proclaim truths about God: the Trinity: the Creator; Jesus, the savior of the world; the blowing where it will Spirit, etc. We want it to declare that it is God who active in our salvation - it's not by our works. "I have decided to follow Jesus"


2. Historical/traditional criteria - what do they say about our denomination/congregation? Lutherans are more likely to sing German Chorales than Baptists. They are a greater part of our tradition. There were hymns in LBW that are loved by LCMS that were part of their tradition that ALC/LCA folks often found unsingable because they weren't part of our tradition.


3. Pastoral criteria - What speaks to this group of people? What do they sing well? We no longer sing "Ein’ feste Burg ist unser Gott" in German, because it doesn't speak to the people in most of our pews. In some congregations, "Castillo fuerte es nuestro Dios" is what speaks to them. There are some hymns that work well with a good, full, pipe organ (with a well-trained organist), such as "A mighty fortress is our God," or "For all the saints," but in congregations that only have a piano - it just doesn't support the singing as well as a good organ. The lack of an organist and a choir does influence my choice of hymns. Good, theological hymns may not be chosen because we don't have a choir to help the congregation learn and sing them. It's not something the congregation can do well.




Title: Re: Least favorite hymns in the hymnal...
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on September 25, 2015, 01:08:07 PM
I'm one of those rare individuals who really believes the funeral is primarily for the spiritual benefit of the departed and not primarily an event to celebrate the deceased's life or an evangelism opportunity for the unchurched.


What do you mean by "spiritual benefit"?
Title: Re: Least favorite hymns in the hymnal...
Post by: Tom Eckstein on September 25, 2015, 01:52:46 PM
Also, given the story behind Precious Lord, what's the beef?
A muslim or Jew could easily sing it...
Zero Christology in it...

Please understand, I'm all for having solid theology and Christology in our hymns.  But to reject "Precious Lord" simply because the words themselves have no explicit Christology could easily lead one to reject the singing of the some of the language of the Psalms for the same reason.

Not every hymn's language has to come off as though it were taken from systematic theology textbook.  There is a place for devotional language in hymns like "Precious Lord" as long as those singing it have had the proper catechesis to understand the substance behind such devotional language.
Problem is that most at funerals are not catechized.  This is a funeral hymn...

I agree that some (sometimes MANY) who attend funerals are not catechized or are not even Christian, for that matter.  However, if the one who died was a properly catechized Christian and chose "Precious Lord" for his/her funeral because he/she put theological and Christological substance behind those words - the this is a great opportunity for a pastor to proclaim that theological and Christological substance in reference to that hymn. Funerals can be great evangelism opportunities!

I'm one of those rare individuals who really believes the funeral is primarily for the spiritual benefit of the departed and not primarily an event to celebrate the deceased's life or an evangelism opportunity for the unchurched.

"Refresh the soul that has now departed with heavenly consolation and joy, and fulfill for it all the gracious promises which in Your holy Word You have made to those who believe in You. Grant to the body a soft and quiet rest in the earth till the Last Day, when You will reunite body and soul and lead them into glory, so that the entire person who served You here may be filled with heavenly joy there." (Starck’s Prayer Book, Revised Concordia Edition, pg. 345 [Johann Friedrich Starck (1680-1756), published by CPH in English in 1921 and reprinted in 2009])

The funeral service in Lutheran Service Book has this prayer:

"Give to Your whole Church in heaven and on earth Your light and Your peace. . . . Grant that all who have been nourished by the holy body and blood of Your Son may be raised to immortality and incorruption to be seated with Him at Your heavenly banquet." [emphasis added]

I have never been entirely comfortable with this "the funeral is for the living and not the dead" view. And I certainly do not see the funeral as a celebration**.

Clearly, a funeral is an excellent opportunity to proclaim the gospel to those who come already crushed by the law. An it is an opportunity for evangelism. But I feel that it is important to play a part in ushering a dear saint from the Church Militant to the Church Triumphant'


**A very well-respected professor of mine, Dr. Jeffrey Gibbs, wrote the following in 2003:

"Five Things You Should Not Say at Funerals
...
Fifth: “This is not a funeral—it’s Craig’s victory celebration!” This is perhaps the most objectionable of all—and it is patently false, as even many unbelievers instinctively know. It is true, of course, that when a Christian dies, he is now “out of danger”—he can no longer be tempted. In addition, when tragic and prolonged physical or mental suffering precede the death of a Christian, there can be great relief and release for both the deceased and for those who loved him and have cared for him.

But who could even imagine saying that a funeral is a “victory” when it’s the funeral of a child, or of a young mother, or of a colleague and friend struck down in the midst of a vigorous and productive life? As a matter of fact, the death even of a Christian is always and only a sign that sin has not yet fully been abolished by the Lord Jesus Christ; the last enemy has not yet gone under His feet. As a matter of fact, death (which does not separate the deceased from the love of God in Christ) does separate the deceased from those who love him. Funerals are not victory celebrations. They are funerals. The grief is, in light of the Gospel, never grief without hope (1 Thess. 4:13). But it is still, ever and rightly—grief. For only on the Last Day will death be swallowed up in…victory (1 Cor. 15:54)."

http://www.csl.edu/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/October-2003.pdf

Don, I agree with your entire post - esp. your quotation of Gibbs' "what not to say at a funeral" advice.  I've especially never liked the idea of talking about a funeral as a "celebration" as though death is really no big deal, a natural part of life's journey, and not really the wages of sin.  Of course, we can celebrate all the good things God has given us in this fallen world as well as the victory we have over death in Christ - but this doesn't change the fact that death is bad and that what makes it REALLY bad is that we deserve it.  The only answer for this horror is Christ and not some worldly notion that death is merely part of life's journey.

When I spoke of a funeral being an "evangelism opportunity," I was referring to the fact that a funeral gives me a chance to speak to Scripture's teaching as to why we die at all and how the only hope in the face of this information is Christ.  If there are unbelievers at a funeral (and in many cases there ARE), they then get confronted with the Truth that they, too, are mortal because they are by nature enemies of God who deserve His wrath.  If that doesn't get their attention and create a hunger for the Gospel, nothing will.
Title: Re: Least favorite hymns in the hymnal...
Post by: Donald_Kirchner on September 25, 2015, 02:21:17 PM
When I spoke of a funeral being an "evangelism opportunity," I was referring to the fact that a funeral gives me a chance to speak to Scripture's teaching as to why we die at all and how the only hope in the face of this information is Christ.  If there are unbelievers at a funeral (and in many cases there ARE), they then get confronted with the Truth that they, too, are mortal because they are by nature enemies of God who deserve His wrath.  If that doesn't get their attention and create a hunger for the Gospel, nothing will.

Agreed! Which is why I wrote that a funeral is an excellent opportunity to proclaim the gospel to those who come already crushed by the law and an opportunity for evangelism.
Title: Re: Least favorite hymns in the hymnal...
Post by: Charles Austin on September 25, 2015, 02:35:37 PM
 I have always believed it was somewhat creepy to consider those who come to mourn at a funeral as targets  for marketing our product.
Title: Re: Least favorite hymns in the hymnal...
Post by: Donald_Kirchner on September 25, 2015, 02:51:20 PM
I have always believed it was somewhat creepy to consider those who come to mourn at a funeral as targets  for marketing our product.

What an absolutely horrible statement about the Church and the Gospel proclamation! By a pastor nonetheless.  :(  So much for:

We believe our decisions are consistent with the message that God's love is for all...

Shame on you.
Title: Re: Least favorite hymns in the hymnal...
Post by: Michael Slusser on September 25, 2015, 03:00:21 PM
I have always believed it was somewhat creepy to consider those who come to mourn at a funeral as targets  for marketing our product.
If you mean having a table at the door for people upon leaving to sign up for instructions, I would agree with you. But I would consider myself derelict in my duty if I did not try to make it clear why  Catholics find that their faith is life-giving.

It certainly isn't a celebration of the deceased but a celebration of God's love for the deceased.

Peace,
Michael
Title: Re: Least favorite hymns in the hymnal...
Post by: Charles Austin on September 25, 2015, 04:36:33 PM
You are, of course, right, Fr. Slusser and the knee-jerk response from certain others is just a thoughtless muscle spasm.
Naturally, we proclaim the gospel, uplift the joys of our faith at a funeral. I just don't like the idea that it is an "evangelism" event; namely the pastor thinks: "Hmm. There are people here who probably aren't church members. Got 'em as a captive audience. Maybe I can make this an occasion to set the hook and reel 'em in."
BTW, "dear friends," I'm about to be, as Gene Autry sang, "Back in the Saddle Again," the saddle being a regular pulpit and altar as I take on another interim pastorate, preaching, teaching, providing pastoral care and leading the parish at least through Advent and Christmas and into 2016 while they prepare to call a new pastor. Give you good feelings, doesn't it?
BTW again, I was interim in this parish for two years before they called the last pastor eight years ago. When that pastor took another call, they asked the bishop if I could come back. Humbles me. Warms my heart.


Title: Re: Least favorite hymns in the hymnal...
Post by: Michael Slusser on September 25, 2015, 04:48:39 PM
You are, of course, right, Fr. Slusser and the knee-jerk response from certain others is just a thoughtless muscle spasm.
Naturally, we proclaim the gospel, uplift the joys of our faith at a funeral. I just don't like the idea that it is an "evangelism" event; namely the pastor thinks: "Hmm. There are people here who probably aren't church members. Got 'em as a captive audience. Maybe I can make this an occasion to set the hook and reel 'em in."
I think it would be unfair to accuse them of such a crass sentiment.

May God bless you in your new temporary pastoral responsibility.

Peace,
Michael
Title: Re: Least favorite hymns in the hymnal...
Post by: BrotherBoris on September 25, 2015, 05:00:49 PM
I'm one of those rare individuals who really believes the funeral is primarily for the spiritual benefit of the departed and not primarily an event to celebrate the deceased's life or an evangelism opportunity for the unchurched.


What do you mean by "spiritual benefit"?

 The most diplomatic thing I can say is that Protestants and Eastern Orthodox approach the subject of Christian funerals with different assumptions. (I would welcome Father Michael to offer us a Roman Catholic perspective as well, if he wishes.)

An Eastern Orthodox person is going to approach a funeral with at least the following assumptions:

1.  The deceased person's soul has now been separated from his/her body.
2.  The separation of the soul and body is traumatic, unpleasant, and disorienting for the deceased.
3.  The soul of the deceased is not immediately judged by God, although it will be eventually. We believe this is a process that takes time and set aside 40 days for it.
4.  The abode of the departed soul (either in Paradise or in torment) is determined sometime after death. However, the absolute eternal destiny of the soul will not be determined until the Last Day when the dead are raised and souls are reunited with their resurrected bodies and appear before the fearful judgment seat of Christ.  Only then will the full joy of heaven and the full torment of hell be revealed.

Without trying to argue with anybody, you can see that these assumptions certainly conflict with many modern Protestant and Evangelical assumptions and beliefs about the death of a Christian.  Certainly there is no "safe in the arms of Jesus" mentality among us that merely because the deceased was a believer in Christ that somehow, because of that fact, his/her sins are immediately forgiven.  Therefore our funeral services contain abundant requests for God to pardon the transgressions and forgive the sins, "both committed in knowledge and ignorance" by the deceased. 

In addition, a funeral to an Orthodox Christian is viewed as a Holy Sacrament.  It is part of the preparation for the next life.  And we believe it makes the transition to the next world easier and more pleasant for the person involved. So, while a funeral for us does admonish the living to a degree, it is viewed primarily and most importantly as offered for the sake of the deceased (without whom, by the way, there would be no funeral at all.)  And the last and most solemn act of an Orthodox funeral (before the actual burial) is the absolution granted to the deceased by the bishop or priest who leads the funeral service.  And we view this absolution as just as effective for the person's sins as it was when he/she was alive in the body.

I don't expect any of you to agree with me.  I respect our differences.  But suffice it to say we have different ideas about the purpose of funerals.
Title: Re: Least favorite hymns in the hymnal...
Post by: LutherMan on September 25, 2015, 05:20:20 PM
Wow, BB, that description of death sounds horrible...
Title: Re: Least favorite hymns in the hymnal...
Post by: DCharlton on September 25, 2015, 05:45:46 PM
God Is Here

"God is here! As we your people."

To whom does "your" refer?  Clearly it is to God, but God has just been spoken of in the third person.  It is awkward. 
Title: Re: Least favorite hymns in the hymnal...
Post by: RPG on September 25, 2015, 05:53:49 PM
I almost forgot about that one.  It's on the short of ELW hymns that get automatically nixed when I meet with the worship committee.   No one's asked to include it for a while.  :)

RPG+
Title: Re: Least favorite hymns in the hymnal...
Post by: Donald_Kirchner on September 25, 2015, 05:57:29 PM
You are, of course, right, Fr. Slusser and the knee-jerk response from certain others is just a thoughtless muscle spasm.
Naturally, we proclaim the gospel, uplift the joys of our faith at a funeral. I just don't like the idea that it is an "evangelism" event; namely the pastor thinks: "Hmm. There are people here who probably aren't church members. Got 'em as a captive audience. Maybe I can make this an occasion to set the hook and reel 'em in."

Usual modus operandi... 

To support his outrageous comment he now states that he was responding to what no one hereon has stated or suggested, i.e., a straw man.   ::) 
Title: Re: Least favorite hymns in the hymnal...
Post by: Charles Austin on September 25, 2015, 06:37:42 PM
Perhaps not "stated" or "suggested," Pastor Kirchner, but implied, to be sure.
Title: Re: Least favorite hymns in the hymnal...
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on September 25, 2015, 07:15:11 PM
You are, of course, right, Fr. Slusser and the knee-jerk response from certain others is just a thoughtless muscle spasm.
Naturally, we proclaim the gospel, uplift the joys of our faith at a funeral. I just don't like the idea that it is an "evangelism" event; namely the pastor thinks: "Hmm. There are people here who probably aren't church members. Got 'em as a captive audience. Maybe I can make this an occasion to set the hook and reel 'em in."
I think it would be unfair to accuse them of such a crass sentiment.

May God bless you in your new temporary pastoral responsibility.


I've heard it done. It was the funeral for a high school youth, held in the high school gym because the church building wouldn't hold the crowd. The pastor used it as an opportunity to chastise all who were not going to church because they could die in an accident and they needed to be ready.


In another state and town, when I was doing a funeral for a 19-year-old whose family had some Lutheran connections in the past, I had an adult query me if there was going to be anything like an "altar call." She thought inappropriate, but she'd seen it done at other funerals. I assured that that was not my approach. She thanked me afterwards for what I had done.
Title: Re: Least favorite hymns in the hymnal...
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on September 25, 2015, 07:26:55 PM
God Is Here

"God is here! As we your people."

To whom does "your" refer?  Clearly it is to God, but God has just been spoken of in the third person.  It is awkward.


Note that Psalm 23 makes the same shift. "The Lord is my shepherd." Then there are lines starting with "He" through v. 3, but then vv. 4-5 change: "For you are with me; … you prepare a table …, you anoint my head …." Also the hymns, "The King of Love My Shepherd Is" and "The Lord's My Shepherd" and "Shepherd Me, O God," make the same grammatical transitions.


Psalm 25 jumps back and forth between God as second person, "you," then to third person, "he," then back to "you." The grammar is awkward, but they are scriptures, so we use them.


I almost forgot about that one.  It's on the short of ELW hymns that get automatically nixed when I meet with the worship committee.   No one's asked to include it for a while.  :) 


Do you also nix Psalm 23 or 25 when they come up for worship?
Title: Re: Least favorite hymns in the hymnal...
Post by: DCharlton on September 25, 2015, 08:08:51 PM
God Is Here

"God is here! As we your people."

To whom does "your" refer?  Clearly it is to God, but God has just been spoken of in the third person.  It is awkward.

Note that Psalm 23 makes the same shift. "The Lord is my shepherd." Then there are lines starting with "He" through v. 3, but then vv. 4-5 change: "For you are with me; … you prepare a table …, you anoint my head …." Also the hymns, "The King of Love My Shepherd Is" and "The Lord's My Shepherd" and "Shepherd Me, O God," make the same grammatical transitions.

Psalm 25 jumps back and forth between God as second person, "you," then to third person, "he," then back to "you." The grammar is awkward, but they are scriptures, so we use them.

Please note that "God Is Here" is not Scripture. 
Title: Re: Least favorite hymns in the hymnal...
Post by: George Erdner on September 25, 2015, 08:13:51 PM
I want Amazing Grace played at my funeral, on bagpipes. I don't care what anyone else says on the matter, that song as an instrumental on bagpipes always gives me goose bumps.
Title: Re: Least favorite hymns in the hymnal...
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on September 25, 2015, 08:43:02 PM
God Is Here

"God is here! As we your people."

To whom does "your" refer?  Clearly it is to God, but God has just been spoken of in the third person.  It is awkward.

Note that Psalm 23 makes the same shift. "The Lord is my shepherd." Then there are lines starting with "He" through v. 3, but then vv. 4-5 change: "For you are with me; … you prepare a table …, you anoint my head …." Also the hymns, "The King of Love My Shepherd Is" and "The Lord's My Shepherd" and "Shepherd Me, O God," make the same grammatical transitions.

Psalm 25 jumps back and forth between God as second person, "you," then to third person, "he," then back to "you." The grammar is awkward, but they are scriptures, so we use them.

Please note that "God Is Here" is not Scripture.


But if the objection is over improper grammar, the same objections can be made with some of the psalms.
Title: Re: Least favorite hymns in the hymnal...
Post by: DCharlton on September 25, 2015, 09:21:20 PM
God Is Here

"God is here! As we your people."

To whom does "your" refer?  Clearly it is to God, but God has just been spoken of in the third person.  It is awkward.

Note that Psalm 23 makes the same shift. "The Lord is my shepherd." Then there are lines starting with "He" through v. 3, but then vv. 4-5 change: "For you are with me; … you prepare a table …, you anoint my head …." Also the hymns, "The King of Love My Shepherd Is" and "The Lord's My Shepherd" and "Shepherd Me, O God," make the same grammatical transitions.

Psalm 25 jumps back and forth between God as second person, "you," then to third person, "he," then back to "you." The grammar is awkward, but they are scriptures, so we use them.

Please note that "God Is Here" is not Scripture.

But if the objection is over improper grammar, the same objections can be made with some of the psalms.

They can be made, but I don't make them.  I am no judge of Hebrew poetry.  As a native English speaker, I do make aesthetic judgments about hymns in English.   
Title: Re: Least favorite hymns in the hymnal...
Post by: RPG on September 25, 2015, 10:52:56 PM
Do you also nix Psalm 23 or 25 when they come up for worship?

Since you asked, no.

Actually, I don't appreciate the equation of the Sacraments with "symbols" in the second stanza, so that's why we don't use this one.  The aesthetic aspect that Pr. Charlton noted is secondary to me on this particular hymn, though I do agree with him on that point.  It's awkward.

RPG+
Title: Re: Least favorite hymns in the hymnal...
Post by: Fletch on September 26, 2015, 08:43:42 AM
God Is Here

"God is here! As we your people."

To whom does "your" refer?  Clearly it is to God, but God has just been spoken of in the third person.  It is awkward.


Note that Psalm 23 makes the same shift. "The Lord is my shepherd." Then there are lines starting with "He" through v. 3, but then vv. 4-5 change: "For you are with me; … you prepare a table …, you anoint my head …." Also the hymns, "The King of Love My Shepherd Is" and "The Lord's My Shepherd" and "Shepherd Me, O God," make the same grammatical transitions.


Psalm 25 jumps back and forth between God as second person, "you," then to third person, "he," then back to "you." The grammar is awkward, but they are scriptures, so we use them.


I almost forgot about that one.  It's on the short of ELW hymns that get automatically nixed when I meet with the worship committee.   No one's asked to include it for a while.  :) 


Do you also nix Psalm 23 or 25 when they come up for worship?

Interesting choice of prepositions.  I was taught the word worship is primarily a verb.

... Fletch
Title: Re: Least favorite hymns in the hymnal...
Post by: Donald_Kirchner on September 26, 2015, 10:59:15 AM
Perhaps not "stated" or "suggested," Pastor Kirchner, but implied, to be sure.

"I just don't like the idea that it is an 'evangelism' event..."

Evangelism: "the spreading of the Christian gospel by public preaching or personal witness."

You know, proclaiming the Good News to those who mourn, who come to the funeral crushed by the law because death is there before them, that, as you claim to believe, "God's love is for all."

Your statement that such proclamation is "creepy" is astonishing. Your continued defense thereof is quite concerning.

But it is somewhat ironic that you would use a fishing metaphor to ridicule the proclamation of the gospel.

And now I need to follow the advice of Pastors Gage and Wolf.
Title: Re: Least favorite hymns in the hymnal...
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on September 26, 2015, 11:38:04 AM
God Is Here

"God is here! As we your people."

To whom does "your" refer?  Clearly it is to God, but God has just been spoken of in the third person.  It is awkward.


Note that Psalm 23 makes the same shift. "The Lord is my shepherd." Then there are lines starting with "He" through v. 3, but then vv. 4-5 change: "For you are with me; … you prepare a table …, you anoint my head …." Also the hymns, "The King of Love My Shepherd Is" and "The Lord's My Shepherd" and "Shepherd Me, O God," make the same grammatical transitions.


Psalm 25 jumps back and forth between God as second person, "you," then to third person, "he," then back to "you." The grammar is awkward, but they are scriptures, so we use them.


I almost forgot about that one.  It's on the short of ELW hymns that get automatically nixed when I meet with the worship committee.   No one's asked to include it for a while.  :) 


Do you also nix Psalm 23 or 25 when they come up for worship?

Interesting choice of prepositions.  I was taught the word worship is primarily a verb.


The dictionary lists it both as a noun and a verb. We also use it as an adjective, e.g., "worship service."
Title: Re: Least favorite hymns in the hymnal...
Post by: Donald_Kirchner on September 26, 2015, 11:45:24 AM
God Is Here

"God is here! As we your people."

To whom does "your" refer?  Clearly it is to God, but God has just been spoken of in the third person.  It is awkward.


Note that Psalm 23 makes the same shift. "The Lord is my shepherd." Then there are lines starting with "He" through v. 3, but then vv. 4-5 change: "For you are with me; … you prepare a table …, you anoint my head …." Also the hymns, "The King of Love My Shepherd Is" and "The Lord's My Shepherd" and "Shepherd Me, O God," make the same grammatical transitions.


Psalm 25 jumps back and forth between God as second person, "you," then to third person, "he," then back to "you." The grammar is awkward, but they are scriptures, so we use them.


I almost forgot about that one.  It's on the short of ELW hymns that get automatically nixed when I meet with the worship committee.   No one's asked to include it for a while.  :) 


Do you also nix Psalm 23 or 25 when they come up for worship?

Interesting choice of prepositions.  I was taught the word worship is primarily a verb.


The dictionary lists it both as a noun and a verb. We also use it as an adjective, e.g., "worship service."

Which is a redundancy.
Title: Re: Least favorite hymns in the hymnal...
Post by: Charles Austin on September 26, 2015, 12:16:17 PM
as I recall, our Lord used a fishing Metaphor  when he spoke of what his followers would do.
 And it should be clear in context, that I am using the word, "evangelism," in its "get new members" meaning,  not in the mere "proclamation" meaning.  How do you see the people attending a funeral? As those in need of comfort? Or as people who might be new members?
Title: Re: Least favorite hymns in the hymnal...
Post by: Dan Fienen on September 26, 2015, 12:33:59 PM
I see those attending a funeral as people in need of comfort.  I have no greater comfort to give them than the Gospel of Jesus crucified for everyone and risen to give hope.  A hope that God offers through faith to everyone.
Title: Re: Least favorite hymns in the hymnal...
Post by: Team Hesse on September 26, 2015, 12:44:13 PM
as I recall, our Lord used a fishing Metaphor  when he spoke of what his followers would do.
 And it should be clear in context, that I am using the word, "evangelism," in its "get new members" meaning,  not in the mere "proclamation" meaning.  How do you see the people attending a funeral? As those in need of comfort? Or as people who might be new members?


Why is it not "both and" ? Most people who attend funerals are in need of comfort and, here in the PNW, not members of a church. I have never been a "hit 'em between the eyes with a 2X4 evangelist" but people do hear good news when I am asked to preach at a funeral and if some come back to hear more... what is wrong with that?


Lou
Title: Re: Least favorite hymns in the hymnal...
Post by: Dave Likeness on September 26, 2015, 01:08:56 PM
Pastor Lou Hesse is correct.  A funeral sermon should
both comfort the afflicted and afflict the comfortable.

At one funeral a family came up to me after the luncheon
and said they wanted to start attending our church.  They
were lapsed Lutherans who had not attended a worship
service in 10 years.  The wife said it was good to hear
the law and gospel from the pulpit. They eventually joined
our parish after 3 months.

Bottom Line:  The Holy Spirit works wonders through the
hearing of God's Word.  We cannot tell the Holy Spirit when
to work and when not to work.

 
Title: Re: Least favorite hymns in the hymnal...
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on September 26, 2015, 02:20:05 PM
God Is Here

"God is here! As we your people."

To whom does "your" refer?  Clearly it is to God, but God has just been spoken of in the third person.  It is awkward.


Note that Psalm 23 makes the same shift. "The Lord is my shepherd." Then there are lines starting with "He" through v. 3, but then vv. 4-5 change: "For you are with me; … you prepare a table …, you anoint my head …." Also the hymns, "The King of Love My Shepherd Is" and "The Lord's My Shepherd" and "Shepherd Me, O God," make the same grammatical transitions.


Psalm 25 jumps back and forth between God as second person, "you," then to third person, "he," then back to "you." The grammar is awkward, but they are scriptures, so we use them.


I almost forgot about that one.  It's on the short of ELW hymns that get automatically nixed when I meet with the worship committee.   No one's asked to include it for a while.  :) 


Do you also nix Psalm 23 or 25 when they come up for worship?

Interesting choice of prepositions.  I was taught the word worship is primarily a verb.


The dictionary lists it both as a noun and a verb. We also use it as an adjective, e.g., "worship service."

Which is a redundancy.


Nope, there are other types of services that are not worship, e.g., community service.
Title: Re: Least favorite hymns in the hymnal...
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on September 26, 2015, 02:23:03 PM
as I recall, our Lord used a fishing Metaphor  when he spoke of what his followers would do.
 And it should be clear in context, that I am using the word, "evangelism," in its "get new members" meaning,  not in the mere "proclamation" meaning.  How do you see the people attending a funeral? As those in need of comfort? Or as people who might be new members?


Why is it not "both and" ? Most people who attend funerals are in need of comfort and, here in the PNW, not members of a church. I have never been a "hit 'em between the eyes with a 2X4 evangelist" but people do hear good news when I am asked to preach at a funeral and if some come back to hear more... what is wrong with that?


I doubt that you exhort the people at a funeral, "You need to join a church to prepare for your eternal life." This is about what I heard a Lutheran minister say to a packed gymnasium at the funeral of a high school student. There wasn't much comfort in his words.
Title: Re: Least favorite hymns in the hymnal...
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on September 26, 2015, 02:25:04 PM
Pastor Lou Hesse is correct.  A funeral sermon should
both comfort the afflicted and afflict the comfortable.

At one funeral a family came up to me after the luncheon
and said they wanted to start attending our church.  They
were lapsed Lutherans who had not attended a worship
service in 10 years.  The wife said it was good to hear
the law and gospel from the pulpit. They eventually joined
our parish after 3 months.

Bottom Line:  The Holy Spirit works wonders through the
hearing of God's Word.  We cannot tell the Holy Spirit when
to work and when not to work.


That can happen, but I doubt that you planned the sermon with the idea, "I'm going to try and get people to join my church." That is kinda telling the Holy Spirit how and when to work.
Title: Re: Least favorite hymns in the hymnal...
Post by: readselerttoo on September 26, 2015, 02:40:40 PM
Pastor Lou Hesse is correct.  A funeral sermon should
both comfort the afflicted and afflict the comfortable.

At one funeral a family came up to me after the luncheon
and said they wanted to start attending our church.  They
were lapsed Lutherans who had not attended a worship
service in 10 years.  The wife said it was good to hear
the law and gospel from the pulpit. They eventually joined
our parish after 3 months.

Bottom Line:  The Holy Spirit works wonders through the
hearing of God's Word.  We cannot tell the Holy Spirit when
to work and when not to work.


That can happen, but I doubt that you planned the sermon with the idea, "I'm going to try and get people to join my church." That is kinda telling the Holy Spirit how and when to work.

No one here is saying that he did.  You are creating a context that has no bearing with what Pr. Likeness actually said. 
Title: Re: Least favorite hymns in the hymnal...
Post by: Donald_Kirchner on September 26, 2015, 04:00:22 PM
God Is Here

"God is here! As we your people."

To whom does "your" refer?  Clearly it is to God, but God has just been spoken of in the third person.  It is awkward.


Note that Psalm 23 makes the same shift. "The Lord is my shepherd." Then there are lines starting with "He" through v. 3, but then vv. 4-5 change: "For you are with me; … you prepare a table …, you anoint my head …." Also the hymns, "The King of Love My Shepherd Is" and "The Lord's My Shepherd" and "Shepherd Me, O God," make the same grammatical transitions.


Psalm 25 jumps back and forth between God as second person, "you," then to third person, "he," then back to "you." The grammar is awkward, but they are scriptures, so we use them.


I almost forgot about that one.  It's on the short of ELW hymns that get automatically nixed when I meet with the worship committee.   No one's asked to include it for a while.  :) 


Do you also nix Psalm 23 or 25 when they come up for worship?

Interesting choice of prepositions.  I was taught the word worship is primarily a verb.


The dictionary lists it both as a noun and a verb. We also use it as an adjective, e.g., "worship service."

Which is a redundancy.


Nope, there are other types of services that are not worship, e.g., community service.

Nope, you're missing the point. Communion service and Divine Service are not redundant. Worship service is.
Title: Re: Least favorite hymns in the hymnal...
Post by: Donald_Kirchner on September 26, 2015, 04:03:24 PM
Pastor Lou Hesse is correct.  A funeral sermon should
both comfort the afflicted and afflict the comfortable.

At one funeral a family came up to me after the luncheon
and said they wanted to start attending our church.  They
were lapsed Lutherans who had not attended a worship
service in 10 years.  The wife said it was good to hear
the law and gospel from the pulpit. They eventually joined
our parish after 3 months.

Bottom Line:  The Holy Spirit works wonders through the
hearing of God's Word.  We cannot tell the Holy Spirit when
to work and when not to work.


That can happen, but I doubt that you planned the sermon with the idea, "I'm going to try and get people to join my church." That is kinda telling the Holy Spirit how and when to work.

No one here is saying that he did.  You are creating a context that has no bearing with what Pr. Likeness actually said.

Nor did Pr. Eckstein. It's a context/straw man created by Rev Austin for, to use another finishing metaphor, trolling purposes.
Title: Re: Least favorite hymns in the hymnal...
Post by: Donald_Kirchner on September 26, 2015, 04:05:18 PM
Pastor Lou Hesse is correct.  A funeral sermon should
both comfort the afflicted and afflict the comfortable.

At one funeral a family came up to me after the luncheon
and said they wanted to start attending our church.  They
were lapsed Lutherans who had not attended a worship
service in 10 years.  The wife said it was good to hear
the law and gospel from the pulpit. They eventually joined
our parish after 3 months.

Bottom Line:  The Holy Spirit works wonders through the
hearing of God's Word.  We cannot tell the Holy Spirit when
to work and when not to work.

Change it to the Holy Ghost and your actions will be really creepy to Rev Austin.   ;)
Title: Re: Least favorite hymns in the hymnal...
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on September 26, 2015, 04:15:16 PM
Pastor Lou Hesse is correct.  A funeral sermon should
both comfort the afflicted and afflict the comfortable.

At one funeral a family came up to me after the luncheon
and said they wanted to start attending our church.  They
were lapsed Lutherans who had not attended a worship
service in 10 years.  The wife said it was good to hear
the law and gospel from the pulpit. They eventually joined
our parish after 3 months.

Bottom Line:  The Holy Spirit works wonders through the
hearing of God's Word.  We cannot tell the Holy Spirit when
to work and when not to work.


That can happen, but I doubt that you planned the sermon with the idea, "I'm going to try and get people to join my church." That is kinda telling the Holy Spirit how and when to work.

No one here is saying that he did.  You are creating a context that has no bearing with what Pr. Likeness actually said.


I assumed that he didn't do that. However, I have heard that done in a funeral service by a Lutheran minister.
Title: Re: Least favorite hymns in the hymnal...
Post by: readselerttoo on September 26, 2015, 05:10:17 PM
Pastor Lou Hesse is correct.  A funeral sermon should
both comfort the afflicted and afflict the comfortable.

At one funeral a family came up to me after the luncheon
and said they wanted to start attending our church.  They
were lapsed Lutherans who had not attended a worship
service in 10 years.  The wife said it was good to hear
the law and gospel from the pulpit. They eventually joined
our parish after 3 months.

Bottom Line:  The Holy Spirit works wonders through the
hearing of God's Word.  We cannot tell the Holy Spirit when
to work and when not to work.


That can happen, but I doubt that you planned the sermon with the idea, "I'm going to try and get people to join my church." That is kinda telling the Holy Spirit how and when to work.

No one here is saying that he did.  You are creating a context that has no bearing with what Pr. Likeness actually said.


I assumed that he didn't do that. However, I have heard that done in a funeral service by a Lutheran minister.

There are Lutheran ministers who say they are Lutheran ministers.  I can also be just as obscure in my words as anyone.
Title: Re: Least favorite hymns in the hymnal...
Post by: LutherMan on September 26, 2015, 05:26:32 PM
Pastor Lou Hesse is correct.  A funeral sermon should
both comfort the afflicted and afflict the comfortable.

At one funeral a family came up to me after the luncheon
and said they wanted to start attending our church.  They
were lapsed Lutherans who had not attended a worship
service in 10 years.  The wife said it was good to hear
the law and gospel from the pulpit. They eventually joined
our parish after 3 months.

Bottom Line:  The Holy Spirit works wonders through the
hearing of God's Word.  We cannot tell the Holy Spirit when
to work and when not to work.


That can happen, but I doubt that you planned the sermon with the idea, "I'm going to try and get people to join my church." That is kinda telling the Holy Spirit how and when to work.

No one here is saying that he did.  You are creating a context that has no bearing with what Pr. Likeness actually said.


I assumed that he didn't do that. However, I have heard that done in a funeral service by a Lutheran minister.

There are Lutheran ministers who say that they are Lutheran ministers.  I can also be just as obscure in my words as anyone.
Heh...
Title: Re: Least favorite hymns in the hymnal...
Post by: Donald_Kirchner on September 26, 2015, 05:30:21 PM
Pastor Lou Hesse is correct.  A funeral sermon should
both comfort the afflicted and afflict the comfortable.

At one funeral a family came up to me after the luncheon
and said they wanted to start attending our church.  They
were lapsed Lutherans who had not attended a worship
service in 10 years.  The wife said it was good to hear
the law and gospel from the pulpit. They eventually joined
our parish after 3 months.

Bottom Line:  The Holy Spirit works wonders through the
hearing of God's Word.  We cannot tell the Holy Spirit when
to work and when not to work.


That can happen, but I doubt that you planned the sermon with the idea, "I'm going to try and get people to join my church." That is kinda telling the Holy Spirit how and when to work.

No one here is saying that he did.  You are creating a context that has no bearing with what Pr. Likeness actually said.

I assumed that he didn't do that. However, I have heard that done in a funeral service by a Lutheran minister.

There are Lutheran ministers who say that they are Lutheran ministers.  I can also be just as obscure in my words as anyone.
Heh...

I knew a Lutheran minister who was a Nestorian.
Title: Re: Least favorite hymns in the hymnal...
Post by: Fletch on September 26, 2015, 05:38:50 PM
Pastor Lou Hesse is correct.  A funeral sermon should
both comfort the afflicted and afflict the comfortable.

At one funeral a family came up to me after the luncheon
and said they wanted to start attending our church.  They
were lapsed Lutherans who had not attended a worship
service in 10 years.  The wife said it was good to hear
the law and gospel from the pulpit. They eventually joined
our parish after 3 months.

Bottom Line:  The Holy Spirit works wonders through the
hearing of God's Word.  We cannot tell the Holy Spirit when
to work and when not to work.


That can happen, but I doubt that you planned the sermon with the idea, "I'm going to try and get people to join my church." That is kinda telling the Holy Spirit how and when to work.

No one here is saying that he did.  You are creating a context that has no bearing with what Pr. Likeness actually said.

I assumed that he didn't do that. However, I have heard that done in a funeral service by a Lutheran minister.

There are Lutheran ministers who say that they are Lutheran ministers.  I can also be just as obscure in my words as anyone.
Heh...

I knew a Lutheran minister who was a Nestorian.

Antinomians, anyone?  Don't lift the rock.   ;)

... F
Title: Re: Least favorite hymns in the hymnal...
Post by: J. Eriksson on October 03, 2015, 06:42:31 PM
back to topic
my least favorite verse in the hymnal is from "Once in Royal David's City"  "Christian children all must be.... Mild obedient good as he."    200% Law there

I'm not fond of "You call us Lord to be"  too much modern social action works righteousness imo.  But i've chosen it because of the tune "rhosymedre".  someday I'll find a Japanese version of Crossman's:  " My song is love unknown"

I'd rather talk about good hymns, new good hymns, ones old or new that folks have just encountered.   I think my most recent 2 are Unde et Memores  and Harts.

my best to all on this blue sky morning
james
Title: Re: Least favorite hymns in the hymnal...
Post by: LutherMan on October 04, 2015, 04:32:20 PM
I don't much like Once in Royal David's City at all...
Title: Re: Least favorite hymns in the hymnal...
Post by: Harvey_Mozolak on October 04, 2015, 04:59:55 PM
I really like Once in Royal... Kings College, Christmas Eve, Processional... I'd take a pew there over the crowd at the supposed site in Bethlehem most years... 
Title: Re: Least favorite hymns in the hymnal...
Post by: DCharlton on October 04, 2015, 07:26:59 PM
I really like Once in Royal... Kings College, Christmas Eve, Processional... I'd take a pew there over the crowd at the supposed site in Bethlehem most years...

Agree.
Title: Re: Least favorite hymns in the hymnal...
Post by: Harvey_Mozolak on October 04, 2015, 07:43:28 PM
my least favorites these days
is the Southern hymnary, well actually-- songnary or nary a good hymn, book...  so many I have had to sing (or rather listen to sung at church) in the last three years that 1. I do not know.  2. Don't want to know.  3. and never heard before... it is like a foreign tongue far removed from Slovak, German, Latin, Greek and Hebrew...  and certainly Lutheran theology.   
Title: Re: Least favorite hymns in the hymnal...
Post by: racin_jason on October 05, 2015, 12:39:16 PM

I don't know if I dislike the hymn "All Are Welcome" (Evangelical Lutheran Worship 641) or if I'm just annoyed by the way it is belted it out with relish by those in my denomination who subscribe to ideologies different than my own. 
Title: Re: Least favorite hymns in the hymnal...
Post by: Satis Est on October 08, 2015, 12:06:44 AM
Well, I don't like "All Are Welcome." 

1. It begins "Let us build a house..." and it always makes me think of the 2nd Samuel 7 text of David thinking he would build a house for the ark of the Lord. Hubris, anyone?

2. The chorus, "All are welcome in this place" just isn't true. It is a feel-good lyric that isn't based on how any of us really act, no matter what our ideology.

I'll stop there.
Title: Re: Least favorite hymns in the hymnal...
Post by: Eileen Smith on October 08, 2015, 08:09:55 AM
back to topic
my least favorite verse in the hymnal is from "Once in Royal David's City"  "Christian children all must be.... Mild obedient good as he."    200% Law there

I'm not fond of "You call us Lord to be"  too much modern social action works righteousness imo.  But i've chosen it because of the tune "rhosymedre".  someday I'll find a Japanese version of Crossman's:  " My song is love unknown"

I'd rather talk about good hymns, new good hymns, ones old or new that folks have just encountered.   I think my most recent 2 are Unde et Memores  and Harts.

my best to all on this blue sky morning
james

That is one of my favorite verses- holding Jesus up as a model of obedience.  Sometimes we all need a bit of law.
Title: Re: Least favorite hymns in the hymnal...
Post by: Donald_Kirchner on October 08, 2015, 09:08:39 AM
back to topic
my least favorite verse in the hymnal is from "Once in Royal David's City"  "Christian children all must be.... Mild obedient good as he."    200% Law there

I'm not fond of "You call us Lord to be"  too much modern social action works righteousness imo.  But i've chosen it because of the tune "rhosymedre".  someday I'll find a Japanese version of Crossman's:  " My song is love unknown"

I'd rather talk about good hymns, new good hymns, ones old or new that folks have just encountered.   I think my most recent 2 are Unde et Memores  and Harts.

my best to all on this blue sky morning
james

That is one of my favorite verses- holding Jesus up as a model of obedience.  Sometimes we all need a bit of law.

Christian children must be perfect like Jesus..."a bit of law"...that'll get them to behave.   ::)

A favorite "verse"? Oh, how we love the law.
Title: Re: Least favorite hymns in the hymnal...
Post by: Eileen Smith on October 08, 2015, 09:40:12 AM
back to topic
my least favorite verse in the hymnal is from "Once in Royal David's City"  "Christian children all must be.... Mild obedient good as he."    200% Law there

I'm not fond of "You call us Lord to be"  too much modern social action works righteousness imo.  But i've chosen it because of the tune "rhosymedre".  someday I'll find a Japanese version of Crossman's:  " My song is love unknown"

I'd rather talk about good hymns, new good hymns, ones old or new that folks have just encountered.   I think my most recent 2 are Unde et Memores  and Harts.

my best to all on this blue sky morning
james

That is one of my favorite verses- holding Jesus up as a model of obedience.  Sometimes we all need a bit of law.

Christian children must be perfect like Jesus..."a bit of law"...that'll get them to behave.   ::)

A favorite "verse"? Oh, how we love the law.

Quite honestly, it's more sentiment.  I think it is a sweet way to state how we are to follow Jesus - we do say that, don't we????   Actually the words I learned:  Children, children all should be; Mild, obedient, good as he.  It's not suggesting that children will enter into fire should they not obey.   
Title: Re: Least favorite hymns in the hymnal...
Post by: Donald_Kirchner on October 08, 2015, 09:51:22 AM
back to topic
my least favorite verse in the hymnal is from "Once in Royal David's City"  "Christian children all must be.... Mild obedient good as he."    200% Law there

I'm not fond of "You call us Lord to be"  too much modern social action works righteousness imo.  But i've chosen it because of the tune "rhosymedre".  someday I'll find a Japanese version of Crossman's:  " My song is love unknown"

I'd rather talk about good hymns, new good hymns, ones old or new that folks have just encountered.   I think my most recent 2 are Unde et Memores  and Harts.

my best to all on this blue sky morning
james

That is one of my favorite verses- holding Jesus up as a model of obedience.  Sometimes we all need a bit of law.

Christian children must be perfect like Jesus..."a bit of law"...that'll get them to behave.   ::)

A favorite "verse"? Oh, how we love the law.

Quite honestly, it's more sentiment.  I think it is a sweet way to state how we are to follow Jesus - we do say that, don't we????   Actually the words I learned:  Children, children all should be; Mild, obedient, good as he.  It's not suggesting that children will enter into fire should they not obey.   

So, the original, which you stated you loved, i.e., all children must be perfect like Jesus, actually now is a bit harsh, that it was by some changed to all children should be perfect like Jesus? For "must" is an imperative requirement (What is the punishment for not meeting that requirement? That "our eyes [shall not] at last...see Him"?) whereas "should" is simply sweet sentiment, something to which we should aspire, Jesus as a model?
Title: Re: Least favorite hymns in the hymnal...
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on October 08, 2015, 11:04:51 AM
back to topic
my least favorite verse in the hymnal is from "Once in Royal David's City"  "Christian children all must be.... Mild obedient good as he."    200% Law there


I found that line in the SBH, but not in LBW, LW, ELW, or LSB. They all removed that stanza.
Title: Re: Least favorite hymns in the hymnal...
Post by: LutherMan on October 08, 2015, 11:17:48 AM
I don't see any reason why they added a second tune for My Hope is Built in LSB...
Title: Re: Least favorite hymns in the hymnal...
Post by: Donald_Kirchner on October 08, 2015, 11:28:08 AM
back to topic
my least favorite verse in the hymnal is from "Once in Royal David's City"  "Christian children all must be.... Mild obedient good as he."    200% Law there

I found that line in the SBH, but not in LBW, LW, ELW, or LSB. They all removed that stanza.

Hmm, wonder why.  It was the favorite "verse" of some.
Title: Re: Least favorite hymns in the hymnal...
Post by: Eileen Smith on October 08, 2015, 11:28:50 AM
back to topic
my least favorite verse in the hymnal is from "Once in Royal David's City"  "Christian children all must be.... Mild obedient good as he."    200% Law there

I'm not fond of "You call us Lord to be"  too much modern social action works righteousness imo.  But i've chosen it because of the tune "rhosymedre".  someday I'll find a Japanese version of Crossman's:  " My song is love unknown"

I'd rather talk about good hymns, new good hymns, ones old or new that folks have just encountered.   I think my most recent 2 are Unde et Memores  and Harts.

my best to all on this blue sky morning
james



That is one of my favorite verses- holding Jesus up as a model of obedience.  Sometimes we all need a bit of law.

Christian children must be perfect like Jesus..."a bit of law"...that'll get them to behave.   ::)

A favorite "verse"? Oh, how we love the law.

Quite honestly, it's more sentiment.  I think it is a sweet way to state how we are to follow Jesus - we do say that, don't we????   Actually the words I learned:  Children, children all should be; Mild, obedient, good as he.  It's not suggesting that children will enter into fire should they not obey.   

So, the original, which you stated you loved, i.e., all children must be perfect like Jesus, actually now is a bit harsh, that it was by some changed to all children should be perfect like Jesus? For "must" is an imperative requirement (What is the punishment for not meeting that requirement? That "our eyes [shall not] at last...see Him"?) whereas "should" is simply sweet sentiment, something to which we should aspire, Jesus as a model?

You're reading far more into what was intended as rather light post this morning.  I like the tune of "Once…"  We use it as a processional when we do Lessons & Carols.   We print it out and the words we use are the words as mentioned above.  I'll be honest when I saw that I glanced at J. Eriksson's post and what stood out was "200% law there."  "Must" didn't even register.   I thought i was responding in a light manner; apparently not!   I don't thin I ever stated that "must" was a bit harsh.  I simply learned "should."  As to simply, sweet sentiment - no I don't think that our being like Jesus is simply sweet sentiment.  I do think that looking at this hymn as addressed to all people, regardless of age, is a sweet way of expressing discipleship.  I have no problem  singing "must."   In the verses that follow we do see Gospel for we do fail even in those things we must do.   There are times when law can be sweet.

We don't know one another and we've never served together in areas of worship.  I've served on both congregation and synod worship committees and I can assure you I don't look at liturgy or hymns as offering up sentimentality.  I've led the resistance on our current worship committee on ELW and would choose a good 16th century chorale over WOV any day.  But sometimes - yes - I long for a sweet way to sing of our faith.  It's often helpful to people whose faith is like that of a child.   I wish our children learned some of the hymns I grew up with as a little child, some of which I still sing.  They're sweet, but good:  I am Jesus little lamb.  Ever glad at heart I am.  For my shepherd gently guides me, knows my needs and well supplies me.  Loves me every day the same.  Even calls me by my name.   

I enjoy the Forum but I do think that corresponding with those we've never met does lead us to read things into posts that we might not see if we knew the person.
Title: Re: Least favorite hymns in the hymnal...
Post by: Eileen Smith on October 08, 2015, 11:31:14 AM
back to topic
my least favorite verse in the hymnal is from "Once in Royal David's City"  "Christian children all must be.... Mild obedient good as he."    200% Law there

I found that line in the SBH, but not in LBW, LW, ELW, or LSB. They all removed that stanza.

Hmm, wonder why.  It was the favorite "verse" of some.

Ah!  Now it comes back to me.  That's correct, the verse is removed.  I read it on-line and did like it and suggested we add it.  We print the words out to capture this verse.  We've been singing the hymn with this verse about 5-6 years now.   And, yes, I always get copyrights. 

I don't think that one has to think too hard to come up with a reason why it's not made some of our hymnals. 
Title: Re: Least favorite hymns in the hymnal...
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on October 08, 2015, 11:40:17 AM
back to topic
my least favorite verse in the hymnal is from "Once in Royal David's City"  "Christian children all must be.... Mild obedient good as he."    200% Law there

I found that line in the SBH, but not in LBW, LW, ELW, or LSB. They all removed that stanza.

Hmm, wonder why.  It was the favorite "verse" of some.

Ah!  Now it comes back to me.  That's correct, the verse is removed.  I read it on-line and did like it and suggested we add it.  We print the words out to capture this verse.  We've been singing the hymn with this verse about 5-6 years now.   And, yes, I always get copyrights. 


It's in the public domain. No copyright permission is required (unless you are using a copyrighted arrangement). The melody, lyrics, and arrangement can be copyrighted separately.
Title: Re: Least favorite hymns in the hymnal...
Post by: peterm on October 08, 2015, 11:42:07 AM
I don't see any reason why they added a second tune for My Hope is Built in LSB...

Reflects the same hymn from a different tradition (in this case the alternate tune was popular in early Norwegian hymnals.
Title: Re: Least favorite hymns in the hymnal...
Post by: Donald_Kirchner on October 08, 2015, 11:43:06 AM
I wish our children learned some of the hymns I grew up with as a little child, some of which I still sing.  They're sweet, but good:  I am Jesus little lamb.  Ever glad at heart I am.  For my shepherd gently guides me, knows my needs and well supplies me.  Loves me every day the same.  Even calls me by my name.   

Our children do learn them. LSB 740, LW 517, TLH 648.
Title: Re: Least favorite hymns in the hymnal...
Post by: Donald_Kirchner on October 08, 2015, 11:44:21 AM
I don't think that one has to think too hard to come up with a reason why it's not made some of our hymnals.

200% law?
Title: Re: Least favorite hymns in the hymnal...
Post by: LutherMan on October 08, 2015, 11:46:11 AM
I wish our children learned some of the hymns I grew up with as a little child, some of which I still sing.  They're sweet, but good:  I am Jesus little lamb.  Ever glad at heart I am.  For my shepherd gently guides me, knows my needs and well supplies me.  Loves me every day the same.  Even calls me by my name. 
One of my favorites...
Title: Re: Least favorite hymns in the hymnal...
Post by: Eileen Smith on October 08, 2015, 12:31:05 PM
I don't think that one has to think too hard to come up with a reason why it's not made some of our hymnals.

200% law?

That would be it. 

I've thought a bit further about your post on "must."  I live in a town that loves high school sports.  Athletes "must" be at practice, be it Sunday or any other day or there are consequences.  In school one learns multiplication.  3x3 "must equal 9.  We don't equivocate and tell our children if they'd like it to equal 18, that's okay too.  The speed limit in our town is 25 mph.  This isn't a suggestion.  When I worked in a regulated business, we had forms that accompanied each financial transaction.  Filling them out correctly was a must.  Why can't we say that one "must" follow Jesus.   ;)
Title: Re: Least favorite hymns in the hymnal...
Post by: Donald_Kirchner on October 08, 2015, 01:00:05 PM
I don't think that one has to think too hard to come up with a reason why it's not made some of our hymnals.

200% law?

That would be it. 

I've thought a bit further about your post on "must."  I live in a town that loves high school sports.  Athletes "must" be at practice, be it Sunday or any other day or there are consequences.  In school one learns multiplication.  3x3 "must equal 9.  We don't equivocate and tell our children if they'd like it to equal 18, that's okay too.  The speed limit in our town is 25 mph.  This isn't a suggestion.  When I worked in a regulated business, we had forms that accompanied each financial transaction.  Filling them out correctly was a must.  Why can't we say that one "must" follow Jesus.   ;)

We can. But that's not the issue.

If athletes do not show for practice, they are off the team. If you speed you get a ticket. And so on. Using your examples and line of thinking, if you're not as good as Jesus, i.e., perfect, the "must" means you're punished, you're off the team, i.e, you're out of the Kingdom.

Would be a quite empty Kingdom...
Title: Re: Least favorite hymns in the hymnal...
Post by: Eileen Smith on October 08, 2015, 01:24:04 PM
I don't think that one has to think too hard to come up with a reason why it's not made some of our hymnals.

200% law?

That would be it. 

I've thought a bit further about your post on "must."  I live in a town that loves high school sports.  Athletes "must" be at practice, be it Sunday or any other day or there are consequences.  In school one learns multiplication.  3x3 "must equal 9.  We don't equivocate and tell our children if they'd like it to equal 18, that's okay too.  The speed limit in our town is 25 mph.  This isn't a suggestion.  When I worked in a regulated business, we had forms that accompanied each financial transaction.  Filling them out correctly was a must.  Why can't we say that one "must" follow Jesus.   ;)

We can. But that's not the issue.

If athletes do not show for practice, they are off the team. If you speed you get a ticket. Using your examples and line of thinking, if you're not as good as Jesus, I.e., perfect, the "must" means you're punished, you're off the team, i.e, you're out of the Kingdom.

Would be a quite empty Kingdom...

I do understand.  My point is we tend to raise the bar so high for other areas of our lives but often not when it comes to our faith.  Why can't we ask more of ourselves.  May I offer up an example of a conversation I had just yesterday.  A parent in our town (not our congregation) spoke to me of her outrage over the fact that her child must sign in at church.  This child is in confirmation class and this is a way of monitoring the worship attendance of the students.  The mother saw no reason why worship would be a component of confirmation and felt it an intrusion that her child must be "made" to go to church.  I suppose this is where I'm going.  Why can't we say to our children, our spouse, ourselves - you 'must.'   Imagine a family prayer where we would confess together - I hurt you… I misbehaved… I didn't honor the Sabbath… and share God's words of forgiveness.   The consequences aren't being put off the Team, but may be found in our own lives.  There is a peace that comes with seeing God's will, with being connected in prayer, with recognizing our sin and giving thanks for our salvation.  Should we have a healthy fear of God (we should fear, love, and trust…).  By pushing aside those things, be it hymns, words of confession (some of what has come out lately is just plain awful), a sermon do we water down the faith and simply have a feel good club.  Can we appreciate the Gospel if we haven't heard the law. 
Title: Re: Least favorite hymns in the hymnal...
Post by: John_Hannah on October 08, 2015, 01:57:29 PM
I don't see any reason why they added a second tune for My Hope is Built in LSB...

That's really the original tune from "evangelicaldom." I like it sung to "Melita" (as one option in the LBW).

Peace, JOHN
Title: Re: Least favorite hymns in the hymnal...
Post by: Donald_Kirchner on October 08, 2015, 01:59:44 PM
The issue is not whether we tell children that they "must" do certain things. Of course we do. And if they don't, there are ramifications.

I simply take exception to the lyrics that we "must" be as good as Jesus, i.e., perfect.  And the response, "That is one of my favorite verses- holding Jesus up as a model of obedience.  Sometimes we all need a bit of law"?  The ramification to not being perfect if that's the standard?  Not pretty...
Title: Re: Least favorite hymns in the hymnal...
Post by: Weedon on October 08, 2015, 02:14:57 PM
Once in Royal David's is not my favorite hymn, but Luther's sermons for the First Sunday after Epiphany (the obedience of the Child Jesus) are not out of tune with the stanza in question:

The Evangelist implies such things as fit with the household routine and the fourth commandment, thus simply attesting his childhood obedience toward his parents. This we should diligently note, so that we not only know what the child Jesus did in his youth and follow his example, but also that we do not doubt but believe that such works, like obedience to parents, have been sanctified and blessed through the child Jesus. Because he, through his person, sanctified these tasks, we should quietly strive to do the same. But you can't tell the world anything. That is why we have disdained such tasks and obedience and rushed into the monasteries. Everything thinks he can do it better and more excellently than the dear child Jesus. Do they not see that such household chores and obedience to father and mother have been sanctified through this holy person, God's Son, who in his youth gathered wood, picked up shavings, started the fire, fetched water, and did other household chores? Truly we are not worthy even to follow his example. (House Postil I:231ff).
Title: Re: Least favorite hymns in the hymnal...
Post by: Steverem on October 08, 2015, 02:20:53 PM
I don't see any reason why they added a second tune for My Hope is Built in LSB...

That's really the original tune from "evangelicaldom." I like it sung to "Melita" (as one option in the LBW).

Peace, JOHN

Far and away my favorite tune for it.
Title: Re: Least favorite hymns in the hymnal...
Post by: Donald_Kirchner on October 08, 2015, 02:21:30 PM
Once in Royal David's is not my favorite hymn, but Luther's sermons for the First Sunday after Epiphany (the obedience of the Child Jesus) are not out of tune with the stanza in question:

The Evangelist implies such things as fit with the household routine and the fourth commandment, thus simply attesting his childhood obedience toward his parents. This we should diligently note, so that we not only know what the child Jesus did in his youth and follow his example, but also that we do not doubt but believe that such works, like obedience to parents, have been sanctified and blessed through the child Jesus. Because he, through his person, sanctified these tasks, we should quietly strive to do the same. But you can't tell the world anything. That is why we have disdained such tasks and obedience and rushed into the monasteries. Everything thinks he can do it better and more excellently than the dear child Jesus. Do they not see that such household chores and obedience to father and mother have been sanctified through this holy person, God's Son, who in his youth gathered wood, picked up shavings, started the fire, fetched water, and did other household chores? Truly we are not worthy even to follow his example. (House Postil I:231ff).

In the context of the carol: Follow His example? No problem.  We "must" be as good as He, i.e., perfect?  That's a problem.

If Luther is in tune with the stanza in question, why do you think one cannot find it in any of our hymnals that have the carol?
Title: Re: Least favorite hymns in the hymnal...
Post by: Kurt Weinelt on October 08, 2015, 02:38:58 PM
I don't see any reason why they added a second tune for My Hope is Built in LSB...

That's really the original tune from "evangelicaldom." I like it sung to "Melita" (as one option in the LBW).

Peace, JOHN

Far and away my favorite tune for it.

I prefer "Melita" and "Solid Rock". The John Stainer version in the LSB seems empty and unforgettable when compared to the other two melodies. Just "blah."  :P
Title: Re: Least favorite hymns in the hymnal...
Post by: LutherMan on October 08, 2015, 02:55:17 PM
I don't see any reason why they added a second tune for My Hope is Built in LSB...

That's really the original tune from "evangelicaldom." I like it sung to "Melita" (as one option in the LBW).

Peace, JOHN
I still prefer  "Magdalen" as the tune...
Title: Re: Least favorite hymns in the hymnal...
Post by: Weedon on October 08, 2015, 03:05:36 PM
Actually our Lord is the one who told us that we must be as good as He is, or as His Father is: "Be ye perfect therefore even as your Father in heaven is perfect." The hymn, though, doesn't say that you must be this to merit or deserve His love. Many stanzas of hymns are not included in our hymnals; I think it would be a mistake to assume that every stanza omitted represented something false. I am frankly surprised that Once in Royal David's made it in at all, because it is not a particularly strong text over all. I suspect that its position in the Ceremony of Lessons and Carols is what accounts for its popularity in certain quarters. FWIW.
Title: Re: Least favorite hymns in the hymnal...
Post by: LutherMan on October 08, 2015, 03:08:49 PM
While I like the LSB, some dogs still found their way into the hymnal...
Title: Re: Least favorite hymns in the hymnal...
Post by: Steven Tibbetts on October 08, 2015, 03:14:24 PM
back to topic
my least favorite verse in the hymnal is from "Once in Royal David's City"  "Christian children all must be.... Mild obedient good as he."    200% Law there

I found that line in the SBH, but not in LBW, LW, ELW, or LSB. They all removed that stanza.

You didn't find any of this hymn's stanzas in LBW.
Title: Re: Least favorite hymns in the hymnal...
Post by: Eileen Smith on October 08, 2015, 03:30:07 PM
Once in Royal David's is not my favorite hymn, but Luther's sermons for the First Sunday after Epiphany (the obedience of the Child Jesus) are not out of tune with the stanza in question:

The Evangelist implies such things as fit with the household routine and the fourth commandment, thus simply attesting his childhood obedience toward his parents. This we should diligently note, so that we not only know what the child Jesus did in his youth and follow his example, but also that we do not doubt but believe that such works, like obedience to parents, have been sanctified and blessed through the child Jesus. Because he, through his person, sanctified these tasks, we should quietly strive to do the same. But you can't tell the world anything. That is why we have disdained such tasks and obedience and rushed into the monasteries. Everything thinks he can do it better and more excellently than the dear child Jesus. Do they not see that such household chores and obedience to father and mother have been sanctified through this holy person, God's Son, who in his youth gathered wood, picked up shavings, started the fire, fetched water, and did other household chores? Truly we are not worthy even to follow his example. (House Postil I:231ff).

In the context of the carol: Follow His example? No problem.  We "must" be as good as He, i.e., perfect?  That's a problem.

If Luther is in tune with the stanza in question, why do you think one cannot find it in any of our hymnals that have the carol?

There are two verses that didn't make the cut.  The one we've been discussing:
 
And through all His wondrous childhood,
He would honor and obey,
Love and watch the lowly mother,
In whose gentle arms He lay.
Christian children all should be, mild, obedient, good as he.

And this:
For He is our childhood's pattern, day by day like us He grew.
He was little, way, and helpless, tears and smiles like us He knew,
And He feeleth for our sadness, and He swarth in our gladness. 

I'm probably too cynical to ask "why" for I'd say that it does, indeed, speak to law.  We don't want to place our children such a heavy burden, perhaps not recognizing that all of us are children.  Or, actually, maybe so.   

May I ask you why these verses haven't made it into our hymnals? 

It's unfortunate, as the carol, in its entirety, tells a story just as all our hymns do.  The last two verses of the hymn share the good news that "our Lord is in heaven above, and He leads His children on, to the place where He is gone."  As well, "Set at God's right hand on high; When like stars His children crowned, all in white shall be around."  If we put the verse in question ("must") in context, it isn't such a bad thing (is it?)!
Title: Re: Least favorite hymns in the hymnal...
Post by: Donald_Kirchner on October 08, 2015, 03:31:36 PM
Actually our Lord is the one who told us that we must be as good as He is, or as His Father is: "Be ye perfect therefore even as your Father in heaven is perfect."

That's exactly what I was thinking of (and I knew that you or BS would bring it up  ;) ) when I stated "In the context of the carol..." Quite different from the context in which our Lord gave us that law. Also, Sunday's (3-year) Gospel also tells us what we need to do to inherit eternal life. Jesus then notes that with man it is impossible, but with God all is possible. That sort of message is missing in the carol.

The hymn, though, doesn't say that you must be this to merit or deserve His love.


No, but it certainly is suggested. It says, "Christian children all must be...Mild, obedient, good as He." And then it states, "And our eyes at last shall see Him, Through His own redeeming love...And He leads His children on...To the place where He is gone."  The Christian children who "must" be as good as He?

Many stanzas of hymns are not included in our hymnals; I think it would be a mistake to assume that every stanza omitted represented something false.

Indeed. And I did not so assume. I simply asked for your opinion, which you gave. Thank you.

I wonder why so many of the children's hymnals, etc. changed the original from "must" to "should," as Ms. Smith learned it?
Title: Re: Least favorite hymns in the hymnal...
Post by: Donald_Kirchner on October 08, 2015, 03:39:20 PM
May I ask you why these verses haven't made it into our hymnals? 

Because those stanzas are theologically questionable at best.

It's unfortunate, as the carol, in its entirety, tells a story just as all our hymns do.  The last two verses of the hymn share the good news that "our Lord is in heaven above, and He leads His children on, to the place where He is gone."  As well, "Set at God's right hand on high; When like stars His children crowned, all in white shall be around."  If we put the verse in question ("must") in context, it isn't such a bad thing (is it?)!

You imply that it is Gospel. I disagree. The carol states that Christian children "must" be as good as Jesus. Then it states that those children, who must be as good as He, will be with Him in Heaven. There is no Gospel that promises us that this will happen. In fact, one could read the message that Christian children must be as good as Jesus to be one of those children with Him in Heaven.
Title: Re: Least favorite hymns in the hymnal...
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on October 08, 2015, 04:00:47 PM
back to topic
my least favorite verse in the hymnal is from "Once in Royal David's City"  "Christian children all must be.... Mild obedient good as he."    200% Law there

I found that line in the SBH, but not in LBW, LW, ELW, or LSB. They all removed that stanza.

You didn't find any of this hymn's stanzas in LBW.


That's true. It reduced the six stanzas to 0. The other hymnals reduced them to 5 or 4.
Title: Re: Least favorite hymns in the hymnal...
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on October 08, 2015, 04:26:44 PM
Actually our Lord is the one who told us that we must be as good as He is, or as His Father is: "Be ye perfect therefore even as your Father in heaven is perfect." The hymn, though, doesn't say that you must be this to merit or deserve His love. Many stanzas of hymns are not included in our hymnals; I think it would be a mistake to assume that every stanza omitted represented something false. I am frankly surprised that Once in Royal David's made it in at all, because it is not a particularly strong text over all. I suspect that its position in the Ceremony of Lessons and Carols is what accounts for its popularity in certain quarters. FWIW.


I don't think that "perfect" is the best way to translate τέλειος.


There are also translation issues with ἔσεσθε. Should this future verb be understood as a command (as your quote does) or as an indicative: "You shall be complete/mature/perfect …." Thus, it is not something we strive for, but is given to us.
Title: Re: Least favorite hymns in the hymnal...
Post by: Donald_Kirchner on October 08, 2015, 04:45:38 PM
Actually our Lord is the one who told us that we must be as good as He is, or as His Father is: "Be ye perfect therefore even as your Father in heaven is perfect." The hymn, though, doesn't say that you must be this to merit or deserve His love. Many stanzas of hymns are not included in our hymnals; I think it would be a mistake to assume that every stanza omitted represented something false. I am frankly surprised that Once in Royal David's made it in at all, because it is not a particularly strong text over all. I suspect that its position in the Ceremony of Lessons and Carols is what accounts for its popularity in certain quarters. FWIW.

I don't think that "perfect" is the best way to translate τέλειος.

There are also translation issues with ἔσεσθε. Should this future verb be understood as a command (as your quote does) or as an indicative: "You shall be complete/mature/perfect …." Thus, it is not something we strive for, but is given to us.

"Jesus commanded us not to be respectors of persons in loving our friends and hating our enemies (Matthew 5:44-47), but to be complete or "perfect" [teleion] like our heavenly Father (v. 48) in loving friends and enemies alike."

A quite different context than in the carol. I characterized "good as He" as perfect in the sense of being without fault or sinless.

Other uses of teleion:

"Paul said that his preaching was wisdom among those who are "full grown," or "perfect" [teleion] (1 Corinthians 2:6)"

"Paul urged the Corinthians to be "men" [teleion] (i.e. "full grown" or "perfect") instead of babes (1 Corinthians 14:20)."

"In Ephesians 4:13 we read that the body of Christ is to be built up unto a full grown, "mature" [teleion] man."

"When Paul wrote to the Philippians he said (3:15) that some of the Christians were "perfect" [teleion]." (I submit that Paul was not stating that they were without fault or sinless, i.e. as good as Jesus.)

Title: Re: Least favorite hymns in the hymnal...
Post by: Weedon on October 08, 2015, 05:12:39 PM
Do you think, Pr. K., that maybe "good as he" is not "as good as he is" but simply, as the hymn says later, following the good example of His childhood, letting it be our childhood's pattern? In other words, obedient to His parents, kind, etc. I think the point is that He shows the way of being a child, just as later he would show us the path of being an adult. To quote our Dr. Nagel, "He alone knows what it is to be fully human; He alone is. We're all fragment and fractions." Anywho, enough time defending a hymn that I have never particularly liked at all, mostly because I think the opening line is probably historically eronneous. I'll stick with the stable cave over the stable shed. :)
Title: Re: Least favorite hymns in the hymnal...
Post by: Charles Austin on October 08, 2015, 05:20:12 PM
 I'll say it again. If you want every line, every verse of every hymn to be theologically precise, there will be nothing that we can sing.
Title: Re: Least favorite hymns in the hymnal...
Post by: Donald_Kirchner on October 08, 2015, 05:27:02 PM
Do you think, Pr. K., that maybe "good as he" is not "as good as he is"

No, I do not think that. That's why English grammar uses the subject pronoun "He" after the conjunction "as," for "He" is the subject of the assumed verb "is."  (Pronouns that rename the subject are followed by a form of the verb to be.) So, practically, the "is" is there, otherwise there would be no sentence after the conjunction.

Plus, singing the "is" doesn't fit, so it's simply understood.

If there is to be no understood "is" then proper grammar would use the preposition "like" followed by the object pronoun "Him," i.e., "good like Him" which is the meaning of the stanza that you are arguing. Unfortunately, the carol uses the conjunction "as" rather than the preposition "like," so your argument doesn't fly.
Title: Re: Least favorite hymns in the hymnal...
Post by: Weedon on October 08, 2015, 05:31:18 PM
Well, it was more about the assumed first "as" than about the "is." But whatever.
Title: Re: Least favorite hymns in the hymnal...
Post by: Donald_Kirchner on October 08, 2015, 05:40:24 PM
Well, it was more about the assumed first "as" than about the "is." But whatever.

That too. If not assumed, the proper grammar to understand the meaning as you wish to do would be "good like him."

I wonder why so many of the children's hymnals, etc. changed the original from "must" to "should," as Ms. Smith learned it?
Title: Re: Least favorite hymns in the hymnal...
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on October 08, 2015, 05:51:47 PM
Actually our Lord is the one who told us that we must be as good as He is, or as His Father is: "Be ye perfect therefore even as your Father in heaven is perfect." The hymn, though, doesn't say that you must be this to merit or deserve His love. Many stanzas of hymns are not included in our hymnals; I think it would be a mistake to assume that every stanza omitted represented something false. I am frankly surprised that Once in Royal David's made it in at all, because it is not a particularly strong text over all. I suspect that its position in the Ceremony of Lessons and Carols is what accounts for its popularity in certain quarters. FWIW.

I don't think that "perfect" is the best way to translate τέλειος.

There are also translation issues with ἔσεσθε. Should this future verb be understood as a command (as your quote does) or as an indicative: "You shall be complete/mature/perfect …." Thus, it is not something we strive for, but is given to us.

"Jesus commanded us not to be respectors of persons in loving our friends and hating our enemies (Matthew 5:44-47), but to be complete or "perfect" [teleion] like our heavenly Father (v. 48) in loving friends and enemies alike."

A quite different context than in the carol. I characterized "good as He" as perfect in the sense of being without fault or sinless.

Other uses of teleion:

"Paul said that his preaching was wisdom among those who are "full grown," or "perfect" [teleion] (1 Corinthians 2:6)"

"Paul urged the Corinthians to be "men" [teleion] (i.e. "full grown" or "perfect") instead of babes (1 Corinthians 14:20)."

"In Ephesians 4:13 we read that the body of Christ is to be built up unto a full grown, "mature" [teleion] man."

"When Paul wrote to the Philippians he said (3:15) that some of the Christians were "perfect" [teleion]." (I submit that Paul was not stating that they were without fault or sinless, i.e. as good as Jesus.)


I think that the CEB expresses your understanding when it translates Mt 5:47 with: "Therefore, just as your heavenly Father is complete in showing love to everyone, so also you must be complete."


   τέλειος has the sense of achieving a goal (τέλος) or reaching the end (also τέλος) or even paying one's taxes (also τέλος). A verbal form is used by Jesus on the cross in John 19:30: τετέλεσται = "It has been finished (or completed)." The image is a like paying off a bill. There was a "goal/end" the debt owned. When it is reached, the payments are completed or ended or perfect in paying off the debt.   
Title: Re: Least favorite hymns in the hymnal...
Post by: Richard Johnson on October 08, 2015, 09:52:13 PM
I love "Once in Royal David's City" primarily because it's the traditional opening carol for the Service of Lessons and Carols. Don't mind the "obedient child" stuff because I figure it points to me as a child of God, not exclusively to literal young 'uns. I really should be more obedient.