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ALPB => Your Turn => Topic started by: Michael_Rothaar on July 02, 2007, 02:07:30 PM

Title: Does procreation matter?
Post by: Michael_Rothaar on July 02, 2007, 02:07:30 PM
My mind makes a quick and direct connection between the social perspective outlined in the following article (from yesterday's paper), and increasingly widespread acceptance of divorce, gay/lesbian committeed relationships, abortion, and a variety of other things that used to warrant a lot of print in the medieval confessors' manuals.

Fewer say kids key to successful marriage

By David Crary
Associated Press
Published July 1, 2007

NEW YORK -- The percentage of Americans who consider children "very important" to a successful marriage has dropped sharply since 1990, and more now cite the sharing of household chores as pivotal, according to a sweeping new survey.

The Pew Research Center survey on marriage and parenting found that children had fallen to eighth out of nine on a list of factors that people associate with successful marriages.

Kids were trumped by faithfulness, a happy sexual relationship, sharing household chores, economic factors such as adequate income and good housing, common religious beliefs, and shared tastes and interests, The Washington Post reported.

In a 1990 World Values Survey, children ranked third in importance among the same items, with 65 percent saying children were very important to a good marriage. Just 41 percent said so in the new Pew survey.

Chore-sharing was cited as very important by 62 percent of respondents.

The survey's findings buttress concerns expressed by numerous scholars and family-policy experts, among them Barbara Dafoe Whitehead of Rutgers University's National Marriage Project.

"The popular culture is increasingly oriented to fulfilling the X-rated fantasies and desires of adults," she wrote in a recent report. "Child-rearing values -- sacrifice, stability, dependability, maturity -- seem stale and musty by comparison."

Virginia Rutter, a sociology professor at Framingham State College and board member of the Council on Contemporary Families, said the shifting views may be linked in part to America's relative lack of family-friendly workplace policies such as paid leave and subsidized child care.

The survey was conducted by phone in February and March among a random nationwide sample of 2,020 adults.

Copyright 2007, Chicago Tribune
Title: Re: Does procreation matter?
Post by: Deb_H. on July 02, 2007, 09:09:21 PM
 
Quote
"Child-rearing values -- sacrifice, stability, dependability, maturity -- seem stale and musty by comparison."

Virginia Rutter, a sociology professor at Framingham State College and board member of the Council on Contemporary Families, said the shifting views may be linked in part to America's relative lack of family-friendly workplace policies such as paid leave and subsidized child care.
 

I think it has a lot less to do with outside factors like the "lack of family-friendly workplace policies" and much more to do with inside factors such as simple selfishness.

Children are demanding.  When you have a child, as much as you think it will not change your lifestyle, it must.  You have to cease thinking about "me" and first and always think about the child.  All those other issues mentioned (abortion, GLBT relationships, divorce) are also issues stemming from the "me first" mentality.  If people do what is best for THEM, then children will definitely lose out.

Christianity is about doing for the other (one's neighbor).  And that includes one's spouse, children, and aging parents, not just nameless strangers somewhere in Africa.

It should come as no surprise to the current middle-aged generation when their children decide that it's OK to end their lives when they have lived them out and are now not only inconvenient but expensive and not "contributing to society" in any meaningful way (as defined by the me generation).  Those were the reasons given to justify abortions when they were the me generation thirty years ago, too. 

Debbie Hesse
Title: Re: Does procreation matter?
Post by: EENGELBRECHT on July 02, 2007, 09:37:45 PM
I saw the same article. This is perhaps the single greatest reason why many mainstream churches are not growing: a sexuality of pleasure has replaced a sexuality of procreation. However, very few people in the church want to talk about this radical change in western culture, which guarantees its demise. It's only a matter of time.

In Christ,
EE (father of four)  :)
Title: Re: Does procreation matter?
Post by: peter_speckhard on July 02, 2007, 10:38:37 PM
In addition to Lutheran Forum and Forum Letter, most readers of this online forum should IMHO subscribe to Touchstone. They consistently have excellent articles on this and related topics. Pete Speckhard, father of five, uncle of twelve, first-cousin of well over 50, which I mention only because my cousins could beat up your cousins.
Title: Re: Does procreation matter?
Post by: ptmccain on July 03, 2007, 07:30:48 AM
Weird...weren't most of the fifty somethings in these liberal churches the same people chanting "Make love, not war!" in the sixties? Ah, birth control and abortion. OK, never mind.
Title: Re: Does procreation matter?
Post by: Charles_Austin on July 03, 2007, 08:29:39 AM
Pastor McCain writes:
Weird...weren't most of the fifty somethings in these liberal churches the same people chanting "Make love, not war!" in the sixties? Ah, birth control and abortion. OK, never mind.

I comment:
Actually, 50-somethings would have been mostly in their teens in the 60s. Those chants generally belonged to the collegians and young adults, now in their 60s.
Title: Re: Does procreation matter?
Post by: Gary Schnitkey on July 03, 2007, 09:05:47 AM
While there are plenty of problems with marriage, I would not get too excited about a poll. Someone calling me about marriage after dinner with my kids wanting attention is not something I would take seriously, probably hang up on.  My guess is that this poll was done by liberals to move a story line forward.
Title: Re: Does procreation matter?
Post by: Richard Johnson on July 03, 2007, 12:49:43 PM

Actually, 50-somethings would have been mostly in their teens in the 60s. Those chants generally belonged to the collegians and young adults, now in their 60s.

Sunday I turned 50-something, and I was in my teens in the 60s, and I'm well acquainted with those chants.

Of course I lived in California, where we're always a tad ahead of the curve.  ;D
Title: Re: Does procreation matter?
Post by: Maryland Brian on July 03, 2007, 01:02:35 PM

  We're in the process of placing "building Christ centered families" at the center of our next move forward as a congregation.  We plan to target resources toward helping parent(s) in their efforts to in developing faith in their children.  Thus far the reaction has been fascinating.  Some get it immediately and are all for it. They understand the family in the US is in trouble and we might want to take seriously a call to focus ministry in their direction.

Others .... well ... all sorts of non sequiturs of the "But what about ...?" keep popping up.  As if focusing ministry on families means we won't also do these other things.  Statistics and articles are always open to interpretation.  OTOH, who would have thought that our leadership would need to put together a plan to convey the vision of supporting families so that the larger congregation will sign off on it at our August congregation meeting.  As I say, fascinating...  I would have assumed it was a no-brainer.  Maybe the article is actually onto something

Maryland Brian
Title: Re: Does procreation matter?
Post by: MMH on July 03, 2007, 01:22:06 PM
Can we learn something from our Roman sisters and brothers here on the theology of the body and role of sex in our creatureliness?

Matt Hummel+
Title: Re: Does procreation matter?
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on July 03, 2007, 01:26:35 PM
Can we learn something from our Roman sisters and brothers here on the theology of the body and role of sex in our creatureliness?
What? That we can make rules about not using contraceptives the a majority of Catholics don't believe or obey?
Title: Re: Does procreation matter?
Post by: Charles_Austin on July 03, 2007, 02:20:53 PM
Someone writes:
Can we learn something from our Roman sisters and brothers here on the theology of the body and role of sex in our creatureliness?

I comment:
Probably not.  And they have not been all that successful on "enforcing" their philosophical view of the "theology of the body" in a world where people's experience and scientific knowledge (also ways in which God reveals) contradicts much of what they propound.
Title: Re: Does procreation matter?
Post by: Steven Tibbetts on July 03, 2007, 02:55:15 PM
Can we learn something from our Roman sisters and brothers here on the theology of the body and role of sex in our creatureliness?


Well, Matt, so far the response is, "Why should we even bother finding out what this 'theology of the body' you mention is?"

Can we? Absolutely. John Paul the Great's sermons on "theology of the body" are going to occupy serious theologians for the next couple of hundred years.

Alas, those guiding and participating in the ELCA's studies on human sexuality have thus far given no indication that they've even heard of it, much less know anything about it.

So while we can learn something, I fear that we won't. At least in preparing for a 2009 Statement on Sexuality. Maybe some of our younger theologians will, but the aging baby boomers and gay activists who control the ELCA's public discussion aren't interested.

Pax, Steven+
Title: Re: Does procreation matter?
Post by: Richard Johnson on July 03, 2007, 03:48:11 PM
Can we learn something from our Roman sisters and brothers here on the theology of the body and role of sex in our creatureliness?


Well, Matt, so far the response is, "Why should we even bother finding out what this 'theology of the body' you mention is?"

Can we? Absolutely. John Paul the Great's sermons on "theology of the body" are going to occupy serious theologians for the next couple of hundred years.

Alas, those guiding and participating in the ELCA's studies on human sexuality have thus far given no indication that they've even heard of it, much less know anything about it.

So while we can learn something, I fear that we won't. At least in preparing for a 2009 Statement on Sexuality. Maybe some of our younger theologians will, but the aging baby boomers and gay activists who control the ELCA's public discussion aren't interested.

Pax, Steven+

Ouch!  :o
Title: Re: Does procreation matter?
Post by: Dave_Poedel on July 03, 2007, 04:03:29 PM
I purchased JPII's Theology of the Body a while back, and it is like reading Ephraim Radner.  It is very dense reading, but if read slowly and without interruption, it is an excellent read

To get a synopsis, I recommend George Weigel's biography of JPII, where he covers the background of the lectures that were later published as noted above.
Title: Re: Does procreation matter?
Post by: Mike Bennett on July 03, 2007, 04:32:38 PM
I purchased JPII's Theology of the Body a while back, and it is like reading Ephraim Radner. It is very dense reading, but if read slowly and without interruption, it is an excellent read

To get a synopsis, I recommend George Weigel's biography of JPII, where he covers the background of the lectures that were later published as noted above.

If you're really cheap (talking about me, not thee) you can find the 129 weekly audience sermons at

http://www.ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/JP2TBIND.HTM

Mike Bennett
Title: Re: Does procreation matter?
Post by: MMH on July 03, 2007, 06:48:45 PM
I wrote-
Can we learn something from our Roman sisters and brothers here on the theology of the body and role of sex in our creatureliness?

To which Brian responded-
What? That we can make rules about not using contraceptives the a majority of Catholics don't believe or obey?

And Charles added-
Probably not.  And they have not been all that successful on "enforcing" their philosophical view of the "theology of the body" in a world where people's experience and scientific knowledge (also ways in which God reveals) contradicts much of what they propound.

And to which I respond Wooahh!

So let me get this straight- It's OK to be down with Spong, Borg, and a number of other folks, but when in doubt, let's just hit the good old fashioned Lutheran "
No Popery here!
" button.  Theology of the Body is not about rules.  It is also based upon the insights of science, and if it is all about "my personal experience", then God help the Church.

Have you folks who are so quick to condemn RC theology on this topic actually read it?  Or is it that Humana Vitae cramps your style?

What I find interesting about HV (which is not the same as Theology of the Body) is that when it passed as written, it did so because the Vatican was worried about what would ensue in the wake of support of wide-spread contraception.  They predicted things like wide spread abortion, euthanasia, and the whole LGBT party package.  Everyone else pretty much laughed at them.  How could any of that occur?  Well, here we are 39 years or so later.  Somehow, it isn't as funny as it must have been back then.


In Ann Coulter's Godless, she raises a point about the "freedom" of contraception.  It means now that a woman can have sex with a man whom she has no interest in marrying and whose child she would not want to bear. And she asks, "How is this progress?"  Much as I may diagree with dear Ann on a number of things, I find myself stymied on that question...

Matt Hummel+
Title: Re: Does procreation matter?
Post by: bmj on July 03, 2007, 07:15:43 PM
Can we learn something from our Roman sisters and brothers here on the theology of the body and role of sex in our creatureliness?

Matt Hummel+


Several local parishes in our are holding 8 week classes based on John Paul's book.

http://www.catholiceducation.org/articles/sexuality/se0055.html
http://www.amazon.com/Theology-Human-Divine-Parish-Resources/dp/0819873942