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Archived Boards => ELCA Churchwide Assembly 2011 => Topic started by: Richard Johnson on August 16, 2011, 09:05:37 AM

Title: Tuesday morning: Bishop's report
Post by: Richard Johnson on August 16, 2011, 09:05:37 AM
Plenary 3

Began again with another pitch for a commitment to the ELCA Malaria Campaign, calling attention to the pledge cards on the table.

Bp. Hanson turned chair over to VP Pena, who promptly invited Bp. Hanson to bring his report. (Cute.) “I’ve come to this assembly more hopeful than I’ve ever been . . . We are a church with clarity about who we are and about our shared commitment to being engaged in God’s mission for the life of the world. . . . I thank God for bishops who have been clear our unity is in Christ even while accompanying congregations discerning their future in the ELCA . . .  We are called in Christ to cross the lines of religious purity . . . Let the ELCA be known, not only as a church that serves the poor, but a church that will work tirelessly to bring poverty to an end . . . This assembly can say to LGBTQ people who are bullied, ‘not in this church! There’s a place for you here, child of God.’”  More comments and stories about new congregations formed from “remnants” of congregations which have withdrawn from ELCA.

Report was vintage Hanson: inspirational, activist, pietistic—even ending with the singing of “I Love to Tell the Story.” Standing ovation at the end.

In answer to a previous question, no mention yet of any grief over congregations that have left; just celebration of “remnants” who have withdrawn from those congregations and stayed ELCA.
Title: Re: Tuesday morning: Bishop's report
Post by: peter_speckhard on August 16, 2011, 09:31:35 AM
Maybe people who left the ELCA were called by Christ to cross lines of progressive purity.
Title: Re: Tuesday morning: Bishop's report
Post by: James_Gale on August 16, 2011, 09:50:02 AM
Plenary 3

Began again with another pitch for a commitment to the ELCA Malaria Campaign, calling attention to the pledge cards on the table.

Bp. Hanson turned chair over to VP Pena, who promptly invited Bp. Hanson to bring his report. (Cute.) “I’ve come to this assembly more hopeful than I’ve ever been . . . We are a church with clarity about who we are and about our shared commitment to being engaged in God’s mission for the life of the world. . . . I thank God for bishops who have been clear our unity is in Christ even while accompanying congregations discerning their future in the ELCA . . .  We are called in Christ to cross the lines of religious purity . . . Let the ELCA be known, not only as a church that serves the poor, but a church that will work tirelessly to bring poverty to an end . . . This assembly can say to LGBTQ people who are bullied, ‘not in this church! There’s a place for you here, child of God.’”  More comments and stories about new congregations formed from “remnants” of congregations which have withdrawn from ELCA.

Report was vintage Hanson: inspirational, activist, pietistic—even ending with the singing of “I Love to Tell the Story.” Standing ovation at the end.

In answer to a previous question, no mention yet of any grief over congregations that have left; just celebration of “remnants” who have withdrawn from those congregations and stayed ELCA.


Did Bp. Hanson say anything about heterosexual people who are the targets of bullying?  Or did he mention only "LGBTQ people"?  In other words, is his concern "bullying," whatever the precipitating cause?  Or is it advancing the "LGBTQ" agenda?


Did Bp. Hanson make any positive comments about those remaining in the ELCA whose "bound consciences" have led them to believe that same-sex sexual relationships are inherently sinful?  Or did he hold up for celebration only those who believe that same-sex sexual relationships can be God-pleasing? 
Title: Re: Tuesday morning: Bishop's report
Post by: Richard Johnson on August 16, 2011, 09:51:22 AM
Now Jim, you know the answers to those questions.
Title: Re: Tuesday morning: Bishop's report
Post by: James_Gale on August 16, 2011, 10:04:10 AM
Now Jim, you know the answers to those questions.


I guess I'd say that I had very strong suspicions.  Thanks for confirming them.
Title: Re: Tuesday morning: Bishop's report
Post by: J. Thomas Shelley on August 16, 2011, 10:08:27 AM
Report was vintage Hanson: inspirational, activist, pietistic—even ending with the singing of “I Love to Tell the Story.” Standing ovation at the end.

Since we have already suffered the subjugation of Scripture and Confessions to the pseudogospel of "full inclusion" I suppose the hijacking of hymnody was inevitable.

Sigh.
Title: Re: Tuesday morning: Bishop's report
Post by: Gary Hatcher on August 16, 2011, 10:11:04 AM
It is also interesting to see that Bp Hanson is talking about LBGTQ et al as if we voted on 'full inclusion' for all the letters of alphabet in 2009.  The rest of LCNA goals will come without any vote, it will just happen.
Title: Re: Tuesday morning: Bishop's report
Post by: frluther1517 on August 16, 2011, 10:13:21 AM
Report was vintage Hanson: inspirational, activist, pietistic—even ending with the singing of “I Love to Tell the Story.” Standing ovation at the end.

Since we have already suffered the subjugation of Scripture and Confessions to the pseudogospel of "full inclusion" I suppose the hijacking of hymnody was inevitable.

Sigh.

No offense Pr. Shelley...the hymnody was hijacked long ago. 
Title: Re: Tuesday morning: Bishop's report
Post by: James_Gale on August 16, 2011, 10:25:51 AM
It is also interesting to see that Bp Hanson is talking about LBGTQ et al as if we voted on 'full inclusion' for all the letters of alphabet in 2009.  The rest of LCNA goals will come without any vote, it will just happen.


Come on, now.  Bp. Hanson is arguably taking an incremental approach.  I've seen some argue for the acronym "LGBTQQIA."  Bp. Hanson didn't even mention the "QIA" persons, whoever they are.  Imagine how excluded they must feel.
Title: Re: Tuesday morning: Bishop's report
Post by: revklak on August 16, 2011, 10:45:24 AM
It is also interesting to see that Bp Hanson is talking about LBGTQ et al as if we voted on 'full inclusion' for all the letters of alphabet in 2009.  The rest of LCNA goals will come without any vote, it will just happen.


Come on, now.  Bp. Hanson is arguably taking an incremental approach.  I've seen some argue for the acronym "LGBTQQIA."  Bp. Hanson didn't even mention the "QIA" persons, whoever they are.  Imagine how excluded they must feel.

Not to mention those who's selves (individual plural self - i.e one person) identify as 2S (2 spirited - my personal fav: why pick one category of male/female when I can be both?)

Seriously, though, I kept wondering about all this talk of the longer alphabetical designations when we only, and very specifically within parameters (as my former ELCA bishop said to me), set out to allow PALMSGRs, but not redefining marriage, thereby assuring me that we are not on the "slippery slope" (though I never used that word) of opening the door to going much beyond that, other arrangements, lifestyles, etc.  While I was accused of drawing an arbitrary line (based on scripture), I was "informed" that the ELCA policy drew a line on further incursion of the BTQI2S options, etc...  At least, that was the implication, though his words were something like "We will stay within these limits"

Yup, we are...
Title: Re: Tuesday morning: Bishop's report
Post by: PTMcCain on August 16, 2011, 10:47:18 AM
I'm a quia guy, when it comes to subscription to the Lutheran Confessions.

Is this what you guys are talking about?


Title: Re: Tuesday morning: Bishop's report
Post by: Jay on August 16, 2011, 11:18:01 AM
It is also interesting to see that Bp Hanson is talking about LBGTQ et al as if we voted on 'full inclusion' for all the letters of alphabet in 2009.  The rest of LCNA goals will come without any vote, it will just happen.


Come on, now.  Bp. Hanson is arguably taking an incremental approach.  I've seen some argue for the acronym "LGBTQQIA."  Bp. Hanson didn't even mention the "QIA" persons, whoever they are.  Imagine how excluded they must feel.

A google search led me to this site:

http://oregonstate.edu/pridecenter/terms-and-definitions

What do the letters LGBTQQIA stand for?

Lesbian
 Gay
 Bisexual
 Transgender
 Queer
 Questioning
 Intersex
 Ally

•Questioning: Someone who is exploring their Queer potential.
•Intersex: An individual whose biological birth does not correspond with conventional expectations of male/female anatomy or genetics. Some intersexuals consider themselves transgender and some do not. The older term, hermaphrodite, is considered by many to be offensive.
•Ally: Anyone who is politically aligned with the Queer movement.
Title: Re: Tuesday morning: Bishop's report
Post by: Team Hesse on August 16, 2011, 11:24:16 AM
I'm a quia guy, when it comes to subscription to the Lutheran Confessions.

Is this what you guys are talking about?

So sixteenth century of you, Paul! ;) LOL

Lou
Title: Re: Tuesday morning: Bishop's report
Post by: Erma S. Wolf on August 16, 2011, 11:47:19 AM
Did Bp. Hanson say anything about heterosexual people who are the targets of bullying?  Or did he mention only "LGBTQ people"?  In other words, is his concern "bullying," whatever the precipitating cause?  Or is it advancing the "LGBTQ" agenda?


Actually, LC/NA does a better job of this than the presiding bishop.  In their "resource" which is being distributed by them at this assembly, they do speak of people being bullied for other reasons than their sexual orientation.  And they make a point of pointing that out on the opening pages.  I will give them credit for that. 

However, in terms of incremental change that won't need to take a vote, I also note this passage found on page 17 in the reflection "How Will We Use Our Freedom?"
 
"It is fitting that the theme of the 2011 Churchwide
Assembly is “Freed in Christ to Serve,” since that is
a central principle underlying the Social Statement
on Human Sexuality, adopted by the 2009 Churchwide
Assembly—and in many ways, adopting that social
statement has freed the ELCA from the seemingly endless
process of establishing this church’s teachings on sexuality.
Now that the ELCA has resolved that congregations are
free to call qualified ministers in a same-gender relationship
and that pastors can preside over same-gender marriages
(where they are not prohibited by civil law),
we are free, as
ELCA members, to focus on issues other than sex." (Emphasis added.)
http://www.lcna.org/images/stories/downloads/resources/050_where_hands_will_reach_resource_edition.pdf

  Now, this is an LCNA person speaking in an LCNA publication; this is not anyone speaking officially for the ELCA.  But, I also agree, there will be no real refutation from the ELCA for this; and eventually, if LCNA says it often enough, with no refutation, then it will be assumed to be true.  Of course, the 2009 CWA did not pass this; but it won't matter.  And the person who headed a program unit who I heard say clearly at a church council meeting that the social statement did not approve this and this was not a proper interpretation?  Well, he is no longer working in churchwide. 
Title: Re: Tuesday morning: Bishop's report
Post by: Richard Johnson on August 16, 2011, 01:02:54 PM
Yes, I noticed that as well. Just to be precise, however, this publication is produced by Goodsoil, not LC/NA per se. Not that there's a huge difference, but it's at least worth noting.
Title: Re: Tuesday morning: Bishop's report
Post by: Norsk on August 16, 2011, 01:08:02 PM
It is of course true that the 2009 CWA did not specifically approve pastors conducing same-sex "marriages."  However, that assembly most certainly did approve pastors and congregations to "recognize" and "hold publicly accountable" lifelong same gender relationships.  In my personal opinion, it is simply not that much of a stretch to see conducting a marriage ceremony as a form of recognizing and holding publicly accountable.  Indeed what else would do so as clearly and compellingly? 

In other words, this was the plan all along, and there is no reason to be surprised.
Title: Re: Tuesday morning: Bishop's report
Post by: Erma S. Wolf on August 16, 2011, 01:26:34 PM
Yes, I noticed that as well. Just to be precise, however, this publication is produced by Goodsoil, not LC/NA per se. Not that there's a huge difference, but it's at least worth noting.

Yes, but given it is copyrighted by LC/NA and there is this from the LC/NA website, you can understand my attribution:

"Lutherans Concerned's New Anti-bullying Resource Booklet Now Available         
Monday, 15 August 2011 10:37
Lutherans Concerned/North America's new anti-bullying resource booklet, "Where Hands Will Reach," is now available.  The booklet contains devotions, stories and theological reflections, and is being distributed at the 2011 ELCA (Evangelical Lutheran Church in America) Churchwide Assembly.  The booklet is also available in pdf form on the LC/NA website, www.lcna.org, under Resources."
Title: Re: Monday morning: Bishop's report
Post by: James_Gale on August 16, 2011, 01:32:55 PM


However, in terms of incremental change that won't need to take a vote, I also note this passage found on page 17 in the reflection "How Will We Use Our Freedom?"
 
"It is fitting that the theme of the 2011 Churchwide
Assembly is “Freed in Christ to Serve,” since that is
a central principle underlying the Social Statement
on Human Sexuality, adopted by the 2009 Churchwide
Assembly—and in many ways, adopting that social
statement has freed the ELCA from the seemingly endless
process of establishing this church’s teachings on sexuality.
Now that the ELCA has resolved that congregations are
free to call qualified ministers in a same-gender relationship
and that pastors can preside over same-gender marriages
(where they are not prohibited by civil law),
we are free, as
ELCA members, to focus on issues other than sex." (Emphasis added.)
http://www.lcna.org/images/stories/downloads/resources/050_where_hands_will_reach_resource_edition.pdf (http://www.lcna.org/images/stories/downloads/resources/050_where_hands_will_reach_resource_edition.pdf)


It's tough to take seriously the Goodsoil assertion that the ELCA is now "free" to "focus on issues other than sex" when "sex" is precisely what LCNA and Goodsoil want to discuss and are discussing.  Indeed, while I give LCNA credit for noting that people are bullied for various reasons, the only reason that LCNA has pushed the "anti-bullying" resolution is so that the ELCA will have to keep "focusing" on "sex."  LCNA has made clear that its goal is to achieve "full inclusion" in all "Lutheran communities" of people of "all sexual orientations and gender identities."  By telling stories about the victims of bullying, LCNA and Goodsoil will keep pushing to extend the bounds of sexual relationships that they believe should be celebrated within the ELCA.


I've got to give these folks credit, though.  They are very good at driving their agenda.  As political strategists, they are top-flight.
Title: Re: Tuesday morning: Bishop's report
Post by: Richard Johnson on August 16, 2011, 01:33:04 PM

Yes, but given it is copyrighted by LC/NA ...

Actually the booklet itself says: © 2011 Goodsoil.

But I can see your confusion.

Sort of like--NO, DON'T SAY IT--the confusing connection between CORE and NALC!  :o ;D ;)
Title: Re: Tuesday morning: Bishop's report
Post by: lucan on August 16, 2011, 01:34:58 PM
"LGBTQQIA"?  I think they need to add a few more letters to this already pretentious acronym.

Rev. Luke, STS
Title: Re: Tuesday morning: Bishop's report
Post by: Terry W Culler on August 16, 2011, 01:35:25 PM
What please tell is "queer potential"?
Title: Re: Monday morning: Bishop's report
Post by: lucan on August 16, 2011, 01:40:51 PM


Quote
It's tough to take seriously the Goodsoil assertion that the ELCA is now "free" to "focus on issues other than sex" when "sex" is precisely what LCNA and Goodsoil want to discuss and are discussing.  Indeed, while I give LCNA credit for noting that people are bullied for various reasons, the only reason that LCNA has pushed the "anti-bullying" resolution is so that the ELCA will have to keep "focusing" on "sex."  LCNA has made clear that its goal is to achieve "full inclusion" in all "Lutheran communities" of people of "all sexual orientations and gender identities."  By telling stories about the victims of bullying, LCNA and Goodsoil will keep pushing to extend the bounds of sexual relationships that they believe should be celebrated within the ELCA.


I've got to give these folks credit, though.  They are very good at driving their agenda.  As political strategists, they are top-flight.

Indeed, the goal is precisely to turn all those who do not embrace "full inclusion" (to the point of performing marriages, etc.) into bigots, to shame them, and drive them to silence.  I'd say this bullying approach is quite ingenious in that sense.  Who can possibly be for bullying?  Well, now that that's settled, stop all that religious stuff that creates the bullying climate, etc., etc.

I hate to say it, but I fear this is much more sinister and cynical, simply because it is pushed in such a subtle way.
Title: Re: Tuesday morning: Bishop's report
Post by: SmithL on August 16, 2011, 02:11:30 PM
It is also interesting to see that Bp Hanson is talking about LBGTQ et al as if we voted on 'full inclusion' for all the letters of alphabet in 2009.  The rest of LCNA goals will come without any vote, it will just happen.


Come on, now.  Bp. Hanson is arguably taking an incremental approach.  I've seen some argue for the acronym "LGBTQQIA."  Bp. Hanson didn't even mention the "QIA" persons, whoever they are.  Imagine how excluded they must feel.

A google search led me to this site:

http://oregonstate.edu/pridecenter/terms-and-definitions

What do the letters LGBTQQIA stand for?

Lesbian
 Gay
 Bisexual
 Transgender
 Queer
 Questioning
 Intersex
 Ally

•Questioning: Someone who is exploring their Queer potential.
•Intersex: An individual whose biological birth does not correspond with conventional expectations of male/female anatomy or genetics. Some intersexuals consider themselves transgender and some do not. The older term, hermaphrodite, is considered by many to be offensive.
•Ally: Anyone who is politically aligned with the Queer movement.

TMI
Title: Re: Monday morning: Bishop's report
Post by: iowakatie1981 on August 16, 2011, 02:13:51 PM


Quote
It's tough to take seriously the Goodsoil assertion that the ELCA is now "free" to "focus on issues other than sex" when "sex" is precisely what LCNA and Goodsoil want to discuss and are discussing.  Indeed, while I give LCNA credit for noting that people are bullied for various reasons, the only reason that LCNA has pushed the "anti-bullying" resolution is so that the ELCA will have to keep "focusing" on "sex."  LCNA has made clear that its goal is to achieve "full inclusion" in all "Lutheran communities" of people of "all sexual orientations and gender identities."  By telling stories about the victims of bullying, LCNA and Goodsoil will keep pushing to extend the bounds of sexual relationships that they believe should be celebrated within the ELCA.


I've got to give these folks credit, though.  They are very good at driving their agenda.  As political strategists, they are top-flight.

Indeed, the goal is precisely to turn all those who do not embrace "full inclusion" (to the point of performing marriages, etc.) into bigots, to shame them, and drive them to silence.  I'd say this bullying approach is quite ingenious in that sense.  Who can possibly be for bullying?  Well, now that that's settled, stop all that religious stuff that creates the bullying climate, etc., etc.

I hate to say it, but I fear this is much more sinister and cynical, simply because it is pushed in such a subtle way.

Bingo.  Anybody else "attend" Willow Creek's Global Leadership Summit last week?  Exhibit A, baby.
Title: Re: Tuesday morning: Bishop's report
Post by: revklak on August 16, 2011, 03:12:15 PM
It is of course true that the 2009 CWA did not specifically approve pastors conducing same-sex "marriages."  However, that assembly most certainly did approve pastors and congregations to "recognize" and "hold publicly accountable" lifelong same gender relationships.  In my personal opinion, it is simply not that much of a stretch to see conducting a marriage ceremony as a form of recognizing and holding publicly accountable.  Indeed what else would do so as clearly and compellingly? 

In other words, this was the plan all along, and there is no reason to be surprised.

Exactly... it is a kind of de facto approval since in order to allow ordained pastors to be in a publically accountable relationship, you have to have some sort of public witness/rite to make the relationship acocuntable to some 'public'  ... yeah, I guess that's how to say it..

BTW it was great meeting you and having breakfast with you and your wife last Friday. 
Title: Re: Tuesday morning: Bishop's report
Post by: peter_speckhard on August 16, 2011, 04:03:41 PM
Once gender is a human contruct, marriage must be a human contruct. To approve homosexual relationships as in any way parallel to heterosexual relationships is to buy all the vowels and most of the consonants of the glbtqqiaetcui agenda. The "a" may stand for "ally" but they're mostly "ui" who refuse to see this.
Title: Re: Tuesday morning: Bishop's report
Post by: TravisW on August 16, 2011, 04:48:24 PM
"Queer Potential" strikes me as the title of a lost Rick James song.  Not sure why. 
Title: Re: Tuesday morning: Bishop's report
Post by: Erma S. Wolf on August 16, 2011, 07:28:10 PM

But I can see your confusion.

Sort of like--NO, DON'T SAY IT--the confusing connection between CORE and NALC!  :o ;D ;)

But you had to go and say it anyway, didn't you?   >:(

"And oh, tis true, tis true!"   :'(

(I'll see your confusion and raise you total befuddlement!)
Title: Re: Tuesday morning: Bishop's report
Post by: Richard Johnson on August 16, 2011, 08:27:42 PM
Mea maxima culpa. The devil made me do it.  :o
Title: Re: Tuesday morning: Bishop's report
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on August 16, 2011, 08:30:41 PM
Mea maxima culpa. The devil made me do it.  :o


Was he a talking serpent?
Title: Re: Tuesday morning: Bishop's report
Post by: Chuck Sampson on August 17, 2011, 10:26:59 AM
Plenary 3

Began again with another pitch for a commitment to the ELCA Malaria Campaign, calling attention to the pledge cards on the table.

Bp. Hanson turned chair over to VP Pena, who promptly invited Bp. Hanson to bring his report. (Cute.) “I’ve come to this assembly more hopeful than I’ve ever been . . . We are a church with clarity about who we are and about our shared commitment to being engaged in God’s mission for the life of the world. . . . I thank God for bishops who have been clear our unity is in Christ even while accompanying congregations discerning their future in the ELCA . . .  We are called in Christ to cross the lines of religious purity . . . Let the ELCA be known, not only as a church that serves the poor, but a church that will work tirelessly to bring poverty to an end . . . This assembly can say to LGBTQ people who are bullied, ‘not in this church! There’s a place for you here, child of God.’”  More comments and stories about new congregations formed from “remnants” of congregations which have withdrawn from ELCA.

Report was vintage Hanson: inspirational, activist, pietistic—even ending with the singing of “I Love to Tell the Story.” Standing ovation at the end.

In answer to a previous question, no mention yet of any grief over congregations that have left; just celebration of “remnants” who have withdrawn from those congregations and stayed ELCA.
"We are a church with clarity about who we are . . ."      True, dat!   ;D

Title: Re: Tuesday morning: Bishop's report
Post by: prallens on August 17, 2011, 03:31:35 PM
It is of course true that the 2009 CWA did not specifically approve pastors conducing same-sex "marriages."  However, that assembly most certainly did approve pastors and congregations to "recognize" and "hold publicly accountable" lifelong same gender relationships.  In my personal opinion, it is simply not that much of a stretch to see conducting a marriage ceremony as a form of recognizing and holding publicly accountable.  Indeed what else would do so as clearly and compellingly? 

In other words, this was the plan all along, and there is no reason to be surprised.

Yes, exactly! How long until the drumbeat sounds for this? Not long at all, I suspect. Sigh.