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ALPB => Your Turn => Topic started by: PTMcCain on August 09, 2011, 01:25:40 PM

Title: CORE/NALC
Post by: PTMcCain on August 09, 2011, 01:25:40 PM
Is there live coverage by an ALPB person at the Core assembly going on now?
Title: Re: CORE/NALC
Post by: Richard Johnson on August 09, 2011, 03:15:54 PM
Is there live coverage by an ALPB person at the Core assembly going on now?

Pr. Tibbetts is covering for us; I left it up to him, and to the circumstances, as to whether he wanted to blog live or just write a report afterward.
Title: Re: CORE/NALC
Post by: Paul O Malley on August 09, 2011, 08:28:27 PM
Is there live coverage by an ALPB person at the Core assembly going on now?

This seems to be a link to it.

http://www.thenalc.org/the-nalc-convocation-video-wide.htm
Title: Re: CORE/NALC
Post by: Erma S. Wolf on August 10, 2011, 10:09:52 PM
I hope some here have taken advantage of the live internet feed of the Lutheran CORE theological conference to listen to the Rev. Dr. Sarah Hinlicky Wilson's presentation this evening.  It was absolutely stunning.  I particularly appreciated her response to a comment/question following her paper, in which she spoke to her own continued membership in the ELCA and called for those present to pray for all those who work at the ELCA offices on Higgins Road. 

   Plus, she gave a teaser about her own commitment to the Book of Concord:  it is in the next issue of "Lutheran Forum" magazine, so subscribe already!  :)
Title: Re: CORE/NALC
Post by: Daniel L. Gard on August 10, 2011, 10:18:14 PM
I was privileged to be an observor at the CORE meeting in Indianapolis in 2009. My father's long-time Bishop Sauer was there as you know. Hearing him speak clarified for me why my father thinks so highly of him.

I have not been able to listen in on the 2011 meetings except for a minute or two. I would have driven over but my wife has gone back to work so I am doing the "Mr. Mom" thing with Caleb. At 8 years old, he is not everly interested in these things.
Title: Re: CORE/NALC
Post by: gcnuss on August 10, 2011, 11:03:08 PM
I hope some here have taken advantage of the live internet feed of the Lutheran CORE theological conference to listen to the Rev. Dr. Sarah Hinlicky Wilson's presentation this evening.  It was absolutely stunning.  I particularly appreciated her response to a comment/question following her paper, in which she spoke to her own continued membership in the ELCA and called for those present to pray for all those who work at the ELCA offices on Higgins Road. 

   Plus, she gave a teaser about her own commitment to the Book of Concord:  it is in the next issue of "Lutheran Forum" magazine, so subscribe already!  :)

I was there and I agree.

Gary C. Nuss, STS
Title: Re: CORE/NALC
Post by: Rev. Kevin Scheuller on August 11, 2011, 01:03:06 AM
It's hard out here for Hoseas.
Title: Re: CORE/NALC
Post by: Mike Bennett on August 11, 2011, 05:19:28 AM
I hope some here have taken advantage of the live internet feed of the Lutheran CORE theological conference to listen to the Rev. Dr. Sarah Hinlicky Wilson's presentation this evening.  It was absolutely stunning.  I particularly appreciated her response to a comment/question following her paper, in which she spoke to her own continued membership in the ELCA and called for those present to pray for all those who work at the ELCA offices on Higgins Road. 

   Plus, she gave a teaser about her own commitment to the Book of Concord:  it is in the next issue of "Lutheran Forum" magazine, so subscribe already!  :)

I was there and I agree.

Gary C. Nuss, STS

I thanked her afterward for (1) being the editor, (2) her paper, and (3) most of all for her answer to the question "what am I to do when I've been wronged?"

Mike Bennett
Title: Re: CORE/NALC
Post by: Chuck Sampson on August 11, 2011, 06:52:42 PM
I hope some here have taken advantage of the live internet feed of the Lutheran CORE theological conference to listen to the Rev. Dr. Sarah Hinlicky Wilson's presentation this evening.  It was absolutely stunning.  I particularly appreciated her response to a comment/question following her paper, in which she spoke to her own continued membership in the ELCA and called for those present to pray for all those who work at the ELCA offices on Higgins Road. 

   Plus, she gave a teaser about her own commitment to the Book of Concord:  it is in the next issue of "Lutheran Forum" magazine, so subscribe already!  :)
I too was VERY impressed with her presentation.    Will DVD's be available?
Title: Re: CORE/NALC
Post by: J. Thomas Shelley on August 11, 2011, 10:28:51 PM
I hope some here have taken advantage of the live internet feed of the Lutheran CORE theological conference to listen to the Rev. Dr. Sarah Hinlicky Wilson's presentation this evening.  It was absolutely stunning.  I particularly appreciated her response to a comment/question following her paper, in which she spoke to her own continued membership in the ELCA and called for those present to pray for all those who work at the ELCA offices on Higgins Road. 

   Plus, she gave a teaser about her own commitment to the Book of Concord:  it is in the next issue of "Lutheran Forum" magazine, so subscribe already!  :)
I too was VERY impressed with her presentation.    Will DVD's be available?
According to Mark Chavez the papers will be published by ALPB and sold as a book + DVD package.
Title: Re: CORE/NALC
Post by: Erma S. Wolf on August 11, 2011, 10:40:07 PM

I too was VERY impressed with her presentation.    Will DVD's be available?
According to Mark Chavez the papers will be published by ALPB and sold as a book + DVD package.

I am very glad to hear this.  I was not able to listen to very much of the conference due to other pressing matters during the day.  I will look forward to the publication of the papers along with the added wealth of the DVD of the in person presentations.

One of the added pleasures of listening to the Rev. Dr. Hinlicky Wilson was that following her presentation the evening ended with the service of Compline (LBW).  It was wonderful to be able to pray with those at the conference, join in the hymns and listen to the brief reading from Scripture with others, connected by the internet.  Causes me to have to re-think the place of technology in worship, not as an intrusion but as an inclusion of others separated by distance. 
Title: Re: CORE/NALC
Post by: Paul L. Knudson on August 11, 2011, 10:59:39 PM
I also was very impressed with Sarah Hinlicky Wilson's presentation.  It is so great that we have theologians in her generation that are so outstanding.  Her three case studies that lifted up connections between Lutherans and Pentecostals, Lutherans and Reformed, and Lutherans and Mennonites were very enlightening.  It reminded me that staying in our Lutheran enclaves without ongoing conversations and in depth interaction with various traditions is hurting the Body of Christ.

This morning the representatives of the Anglicans, PCUSA, and Lutherans (Nestingen) added to Sarah's presentation.  All three were excellent.  The PCUSA representative spoke eloquently of the need for us to resist circling the wagons in too small circles of orthodox believers.  1,900 orthodox representatives of the PCUSA are meeting in Minneapolis in the next week or so to consider their next steps.  He indicated that many of them have no idea that Lutheran CORE just held this gathering and do not know about brothers and sisters in the orthodox camps of each of the above traditions.  Most of us probably have had no idea about the PCUSA meeting.  I was so impressed with our need not to stereotype our compatriots in these various traditions.

I was also struck by the fact that probably up to one third of the participants at the Theological Conference were still in the ELCA.  You can see that in various ways.  To me it said that leaders in the ELCA may well need to deal with the fact that this whole sorting out business is not yet complete.

Pastor Buba of NALC indicated that NALC has 50 mission congregations.  This probably means breakaway groups forming new churches.  I missed it, but I heard that he had another inspiring presentation at the Lutheran CORE convocation on Tuesday.  I was told there were about 400 for that, 600 for the Theological conference, and they were expecting 800 (I believe) for the NALC convention.  It was a great theological conference in many ways.  I do not believe we would have ended up in the mess we are in if such theological reflections had been wide spread in the ELCA in countless settings.  I reiterate that I find it difficult to find at Luther Seminary a continuing event that is focused on Biblical, historical, or systematic theology.  It is rather a myriad of offerings n how to do ministry more effectively.  We need this, but we need solid theology a lot more.
Title: Re: CORE/NALC
Post by: Richard Johnson on August 12, 2011, 12:25:15 AM
Latest news is that the Rev. John Bradosky, who has been serving as General Secretary of NALC, has been elected bishop on the first ballot with 52% of the vote. Not "publicly announced" yet, but it is accurate. I invite your prayers for him in his new calling.
Title: Re: CORE/NALC
Post by: Rev. Kevin Scheuller on August 12, 2011, 12:45:17 AM
I saw Rev. Bradosky speak a few months ago in Waupaca and was impressed.  I especially liked his answer to my question about the NALC and its plan for its own health coverage.  They do intend to be plain about NOT covering elective abortions in their health plan.  He also pointed out that not covering elective abortions means lower premiums overall due to the risks in any abortion.  He and the NALC have my prayers.
Title: Re: CORE/NALC
Post by: Team Hesse on August 12, 2011, 08:23:03 AM
but we need solid theology a lot more.

I must second this statement with reservation. I was only able to attend Wednesday, so my hearing of the presentations is limited, but in some ways this was still pretty thin soup to my taste. It seemed at times to be more of a pep rally for particular agendas or approaches to problems most of which I could agree with (Dr. Benne's presentation for instance ) but the theology underlying the presentations was more assumed than proclaimed. I'm not sure that is the correct move.
 Of course, I am spoiled, having spent the previous week with Dr Wenthe at Flathead in Montana digging "small s" sacraments out of the Old Testament and having spent most of a week in June at Mt Carmel in the book of Romans with Dr Steve Paulson.
A "full-meal-deal" of actually digging in scripture is simply more wholesome than agendas and ministry goals and opportunities whether of a liberal or traditionalist bent.

I enjoyed reconnecting with old friends and making some new ones. NALC is a considerable improvement from the ELCA, but what do I know....

Lou
Title: Re: CORE/NALC
Post by: PTMcCain on August 12, 2011, 09:47:07 AM
Lou, in other words, you once more experienced the joy of his truth:

How sweet are your words to my taste, sweeter than honey to my mouth!
Psalm 119:103
Title: Re: CORE/NALC
Post by: Paul L. Knudson on August 12, 2011, 09:56:55 AM
Lou, I agree with you in part.  I do think some of the talks were not exactly on theme as directly as they could have been.  I believe McDermot was very much on target and dealt well with the challenges to historic Christian understandings of salvation.  I personally like Benne, but I have heard him speak of this before.  Would have hoped for more from him that was not only refuting the trajectory of the ELCA.  I did very much like Sarah and the three Thursday morning presentations.  They were for me excellent.

I do not believe this kind of event can go about it like some of the events you were at recently.  I do long for those events, however, to be the common experience of continuing ed at Luther Seminary.  Their absence is telling to me of the diminishing of solid theology there.

I'm off for a weekend family reunion.  Good to see you.  Wish we had connected for more conversation.
Title: Re: CORE/NALC
Post by: GalRev83 on August 12, 2011, 10:01:32 AM
I realize that ( in the eyes of some) the convocation was not a theological conference/seminar of the highest academic order -- but as an event designed to stimulate laity and clergy alike, to inspire further study and discussion in the future on local levels and by individuals, and as a tone setter for the NALC gathering I thought the event was masterfully planned and carried out. Sarah Hinlicky Wilson's wonderful presentation -as the work of a leading younger theologian -- bodes well for future convocations and the stated intention of NALC to foster theological study and discussion throughout the church.
Title: Re: CORE/NALC
Post by: Charles_Austin on August 12, 2011, 11:20:13 AM
And, Pastor Smith, if smart, theologically-astute young women pastors in the NALC keep their level of involvement high, I think it bodes well for the future of that denomination.
Title: Re: CORE/NALC
Post by: Revbert on August 12, 2011, 01:47:08 PM

I too was VERY impressed with her presentation.    Will DVD's be available?
According to Mark Chavez the papers will be published by ALPB and sold as a book + DVD package.

I am very glad to hear this.  I was not able to listen to very much of the conference due to other pressing matters during the day.  I will look forward to the publication of the papers along with the added wealth of the DVD of the in person presentations.

One of the added pleasures of listening to the Rev. Dr. Hinlicky Wilson was that following her presentation the evening ended with the service of Compline (LBW).  It was wonderful to be able to pray with those at the conference, join in the hymns and listen to the brief reading from Scripture with others, connected by the internet.  Causes me to have to re-think the place of technology in worship, not as an intrusion but as an inclusion of others separated by distance. 

Erma,

The use of the Internet to include those dispersed in worship has been a drum I have been beating for 10 years. I'm working on a theologically-focused paper on not only technology of HOW to do it (and there are some BAD ways begin pushed out there) but the theology behind such inclusion.
Title: Re: CORE/NALC
Post by: Dan_Biles on August 12, 2011, 10:07:57 PM
I attended the theological conference.  The presentations were excellent.  It was the most mission-focused event I've been to in years.  Great to worship, too, without the banality of PC-English.  Overall, I came away renewed in evangelical zeal and confidence in the Lutheran heritage.
Title: Re: CORE/NALC
Post by: revklak on August 13, 2011, 02:59:16 PM
I saw Rev. Bradosky speak a few months ago in Waupaca and was impressed.  I especially liked his answer to my question about the NALC and its plan for its own health coverage.  They do intend to be plain about NOT covering elective abortions in their health plan.  He also pointed out that not covering elective abortions means lower premiums overall due to the risks in any abortion.  He and the NALC have my prayers.

And specifically, what I got from the insurance folks, was not only elective abortions are NOT covered, but very specifically only when the LIFE of the mother is at stake will it be paid for -- LIFE and not HEALTH - that is, excluding the possiblity of abortions to avoid inconvenience (like bed rest) or mental "it makes me feel bad at this time' (both simplistic examples, but that's all I got now).  Also, contraception will NOT be covered either. 

Praise be to God....

As for the conference/convocation.. .it was excellent-- first church assembly/business mtg I actually enjoyed being at in nearly 15 years.  The messages were inspiring, the debates respectful, and even laughter and joking -- even during the voting!!!!
Title: Re: CORE/NALC
Post by: Scott6 on August 13, 2011, 03:15:13 PM
As for the conference/convocation.. .it was excellent-- first church assembly/business mtg I actually enjoyed being at in nearly 15 years.  The messages were inspiring, the debates respectful, and even laughter and joking -- even during the voting!!!!


Methinks that as the denomination matures, things will change.  But thanks be to God that it there is still giddy freedom at this time!
Title: Re: CORE/NALC
Post by: Harvey_Mozolak on August 13, 2011, 03:52:32 PM
I was going to post this in a discussion that had veered off into talk of Holy Communion's is-ness...  but maybe here might be better.  I followed much of the NALC meeting online, couldn't come this year, we are moving, well in the process, right now it is hurry up and wait time...

I think of the tiny dust up at the NALC convention on a resolution about Eucharistic reception that spoke about "under the bread and wine" and someone offered a resolution that altered the reading about the elements to say "bread and the cup" and while there was some truth in a problem with the actual grammar of the sentence. someone pointed out that scripture itself speaks of the wine using the word "cup", somewhat synonymously.  Of course the one who wanted the amendment of change desired to do so to bring comfort to those who drink grape juice (I assume due to alcoholism or the fear of it, let’s say).  But the body evidently saw that it was a time for confession in what the elements were that Jesus used and what at least in the tradition of the church has been its practice.  Now I would never offer grape juice but I do have some issues with purposely communing in one kind.  Well, I see it that cup is also scriptural and it certainly is poetic and used frequently in very traditional and historic hymnody and prayer language.  Somehow I sympathize for both viewpoints on this phrasing.  These are times, unfortunately, that we cannot trust the poetic for its form of realism or the variety that might be ordinarily allowed in our language.  And that is very sad from my perspective.  Additionally, the convention, removed the word "Trinity" and replaced it with” Father, Son and Holy Spirit,” again because of those who would do away with "Father" language.  I have done the same in prayers, liturgy and sermonizing, added more into make sure to make sure less was not meant, assumed or allowed.    What will we pay for our need to confess all the time and with what might become stogy sameness and what will it cost not be free to praise with any of the newness the Spirit might offer to the church through the sanctified creativity of its people?  Interesting question.  New worry. 

And everyone went through the above two exercises with good humor, ease and a gracious allowance for the other side...  but I do not think that was very deep at all.   What of grape juice?  Will it be a point of division?  Do we always have to state F,S,HS or can we trust enough to say "the Holy Trinity"?     Hmmmm.    As you say, Scott, in the maturation process... when the kids become teens.... Harvey Mozolak
Title: Re: CORE/NALC
Post by: James_Gale on August 13, 2011, 03:58:40 PM
I was going to post this in a discussion that had veered off into talk of Holy Communion's is-ness...  but maybe here might be better.  I followed much of the NALC meeting online, couldn't come this year, we are moving, well in the process, right now it is hurry up and wait time...

I think of the tiny dust up at the NALC convention on a resolution about Eucharistic reception that spoke about "under the bread and wine" and someone offered a resolution that altered the reading about the elements to say "bread and the cup" and while there was some truth in a problem with the actual grammar of the sentence. someone pointed out that scripture itself speaks of the wine using the word "cup", somewhat synonymously.  Of course the one who wanted the amendment of change desired to do so to bring comfort to those who drink grape juice (I assume due to alcoholism or the fear of it, let’s say).  But the body evidently saw that it was a time for confession in what the elements were that Jesus used and what at least in the tradition of the church has been its practice.  Now I would never offer grape juice but I do have some issues with purposely communing in one kind.  Well, I see it that cup is also scriptural and it certainly is poetic and used frequently in very traditional and historic hymnody and prayer language.  Somehow I sympathize for both viewpoints on this phrasing.  These are times, unfortunately, that we cannot trust the poetic for its form of realism or the variety that might be ordinarily allowed in our language.  And that is very sad from my perspective.  Additionally, the convention, removed the word "Trinity" and replaced it with” Father, Son and Holy Spirit,” again because of those who would do away with "Father" language.  I have done the same in prayers, liturgy and sermonizing, added more into make sure to make sure less was not meant, assumed or allowed.    What will we pay for our need to confess all the time and with what might become stogy sameness and what will it cost not be free to praise with any of the newness the Spirit might offer to the church through the sanctified creativity of its people?  Interesting question.  New worry. 

And everyone went through the above two exercises with good humor, ease and a gracious allowance for the other side...  but I do not think that was very deep at all.   What of grape juice?  Will it be a point of division?  Do we always have to state F,S,HS or can we trust enough to say "the Holy Trinity"?     Hmmmm.    As you say, Scott, in the maturation process... when the kids become teens.... Harvey Mozolak


For what it's worth, after very cordial discussion, nobody voted in favor of replacing "wine" with "cup."  And the motion to replace "Trinity" with "F, S, and HS" was approved with few or no votes against. 
Title: Re: CORE/NALC
Post by: racin_jason on August 13, 2011, 05:53:21 PM
Having watched parts of the NALC events via the web this week and echo what Lou said.

+What exactly is the goal? Like the ELCA it seems one aspect is to rally the base, rah-rah stuff.

+Though I have read many of his writings, I had never heard Dr. Braaten speak. Such a thick accent. Hearing it took me back to coffee hour in 1975 in the basement of First Lutheran Church in (anytown), Minnesota.

+The panel discussion was great. For us admirers of Dr. Nestingen, we learned why he never went to the LCMS: Jack Pruess warned him not to, said he'd always be considered "alien". He used the metaphor of a fly being drawn to a lamp but not finding a place to land. Many of us can relate to that. Dr. Nestingen praised LCMS scholars over that of Seminex because he   could always "trust them". That got a varied response from the crowd, some quarters expressed dismay.
Title: Re: CORE/NALC
Post by: Harvey_Mozolak on August 13, 2011, 08:36:37 PM
Yes there is a strain of let's blame the AELC and Seminex.    It makes a number of us well at least me uncomfortable.  Harvey Mozolak of the NALC. 
Title: Re: CORE/NALC
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on August 14, 2011, 01:29:21 AM
For what it's worth, after very cordial discussion, nobody voted in favor of replacing "wine" with "cup."  And the motion to replace "Trinity" with "F, S, and HS" was approved with few or no votes against.


I find this a bit ironic. On one hand, they don't want to use the biblical word, "cup," found in all four accounts of the words of institution, while the word "wine" is in none of them! Two of the four mention, "fruit of the vine". (While I believe that it was wine in the cup, I think that the use of "cup" is more than just a synonym for "wine" in that context.) On the other hand, they replace the non-biblical word, "Trinity," with the biblical phrase, "Father, Son, and Holy Spirit."
Title: Re: CORE/NALC
Post by: J. Thomas Shelley on August 14, 2011, 07:24:18 AM
For what it's worth, after very cordial discussion, nobody voted in favor of replacing "wine" with "cup."  And the motion to replace "Trinity" with "F, S, and HS" was approved with few or no votes against.


I find this a bit ironic. On one hand, they don't want to use the biblical word, "cup," found in all four accounts of the words of institution, while the word "wine" is in none of them! Two of the four mention, "fruit of the vine". (While I believe that it was wine in the cup, I think that the use of "cup" is more than just a synonym for "wine" in that context.) On the other hand, they replace the non-biblical word, "Trinity," with the biblical phrase, "Father, Son, and Holy Spirit."

Brings back memories of my UMC days when there was actually a petition to the General Conference demanding that all hymns referring to wine have the word replaced by "grape juice"....heedless of the violence that would do to rhyme and meter, let alone to the work of deceased authors.   Thankfully, it failed.
Title: Re: CORE/NALC
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on August 14, 2011, 10:35:32 AM
For what it's worth, after very cordial discussion, nobody voted in favor of replacing "wine" with "cup."  And the motion to replace "Trinity" with "F, S, and HS" was approved with few or no votes against.


I find this a bit ironic. On one hand, they don't want to use the biblical word, "cup," found in all four accounts of the words of institution, while the word "wine" is in none of them! Two of the four mention, "fruit of the vine". (While I believe that it was wine in the cup, I think that the use of "cup" is more than just a synonym for "wine" in that context.) On the other hand, they replace the non-biblical word, "Trinity," with the biblical phrase, "Father, Son, and Holy Spirit."

Brings back memories of my UMC days when there was actually a petition to the General Conference demanding that all hymns referring to wine have the word replaced by "grape juice"....heedless of the violence that would do to rhyme and meter, let alone to the work of deceased authors.   Thankfully, it failed.


If they had sought to replace "wine" with "fruit of the vine" it would keep the rhyme (but not the rhythm).
Title: Re: CORE/NALC
Post by: revklak on August 14, 2011, 01:55:52 PM
For what it's worth, after very cordial discussion, nobody voted in favor of replacing "wine" with "cup."  And the motion to replace "Trinity" with "F, S, and HS" was approved with few or no votes against.


I find this a bit ironic. On one hand, they don't want to use the biblical word, "cup," found in all four accounts of the words of institution, while the word "wine" is in none of them! Two of the four mention, "fruit of the vine". (While I believe that it was wine in the cup, I think that the use of "cup" is more than just a synonym for "wine" in that context.) On the other hand, they replace the non-biblical word, "Trinity," with the biblical phrase, "Father, Son, and Holy Spirit."

I think these were not only perfectly good adjustments, but not 'ironic' in the sense that they drifted in two directions (biblical vs. non-bliblical).  Not that we ever wanted to get to this point, but recenty history has taught us the value of being S-P-E-C-I-F-I-C.  For while Trinity is a very confessional and sound doctrinal word, its 'poetic-ness' and beauty can be open to ambiguity in which folks pray and baptize using not the NAME of the TRIUNE God (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit), but by attributes or descriptors (Creator, Redeemer,Sanctifier)  Since we've hashed this out other places, suffice it to say this change places us squarely in the camp of orthodoxy and without leaving wiggle room for others to "adjust" and "broaden" interpretations and language.  Creator, redeemer and sanctifier called still be used, but they cannot replace the NAME.

And with the wine vs. cup, I think its rather obvious that while wine or cup are often used synonomously, while not being exactly the same, its the WINE that is the BLOOD of Christ which brings salvation, not the particular or general cup - which does express it beautifully in a poetic sense.  (Besides, the word for cup could also be translated out of the Greek as bowl or chalice -- so which is it, and really, does it MATTER?)

Title: Re: CORE/NALC
Post by: James_Gale on August 14, 2011, 03:30:42 PM
For what it's worth, after very cordial discussion, nobody voted in favor of replacing "wine" with "cup."  And the motion to replace "Trinity" with "F, S, and HS" was approved with few or no votes against.


I find this a bit ironic. On one hand, they don't want to use the biblical word, "cup," found in all four accounts of the words of institution, while the word "wine" is in none of them! Two of the four mention, "fruit of the vine". (While I believe that it was wine in the cup, I think that the use of "cup" is more than just a synonym for "wine" in that context.) On the other hand, they replace the non-biblical word, "Trinity," with the biblical phrase, "Father, Son, and Holy Spirit."


The phrase at issue was "the real presence of Christ in, with, and under the bread and wine."  A delegate moved that "wine" be replaced with "cup."  In the particular phrase at issue, "cup" would not have worked well. 
Title: Re: CORE/NALC
Post by: J. Thomas Shelley on August 14, 2011, 04:39:39 PM
The phrase at issue was "the real presence of Christ in, with, and under the bread and wine."  A delegate moved that "wine" be replaced with "cup."  In the particular phrase at issue, "cup" would not have worked well.

Aye, in that particular phrase it would have bordered on idolatry.
Title: Re: CORE/NALC
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on August 14, 2011, 06:03:59 PM
The phrase at issue was "the real presence of Christ in, with, and under the bread and wine."  A delegate moved that "wine" be replaced with "cup."  In the particular phrase at issue, "cup" would not have worked well.

Aye, in that particular phrase it would have bordered on idolatry.


Why would it be any more idolatrous than "bread"?
Title: Re: CORE/NALC
Post by: Dadoo on August 14, 2011, 07:06:46 PM
The phrase at issue was "the real presence of Christ in, with, and under the bread and wine."  A delegate moved that "wine" be replaced with "cup."  In the particular phrase at issue, "cup" would not have worked well.

Aye, in that particular phrase it would have bordered on idolatry.


Why would it be any more idolatrous than "bread"?

So basically you are saying that the container is more important than what it contains . . . righty . . . is Indiana Jones available? 
Title: Re: CORE/NALC
Post by: dkeener on August 14, 2011, 07:14:19 PM
The sense that I got was that the convocation had a desire to both retain the traditional language of the Church and reject the obsession with politically correct language that they had experienced in the ELCA. The adoption of the "Father, Son and Holy Spirit" substitution and the quick rejection of the proposed "cup" amendment showed me that these former ELCA people were no longer willing to risk clear understanding and sound theology out of fear of offending someone.

Title: Re: CORE/NALC
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on August 14, 2011, 07:35:06 PM
The phrase at issue was "the real presence of Christ in, with, and under the bread and wine."  A delegate moved that "wine" be replaced with "cup."  In the particular phrase at issue, "cup" would not have worked well.

Aye, in that particular phrase it would have bordered on idolatry.


Why would it be any more idolatrous than "bread"?

So basically you are saying that the container is more important than what it contains . . . righty . . . is Indiana Jones available?


No, I'm raising the possibility that "this" in "this is" might refer to "take and eat" and "take and drink" rather than the loaf or cup. Is the bread the body of Christ if it is not taken and eaten together? Is the cup the new covenant in Christ's blood if the cup is not taken and drunk together? (Technically, the cup is "the new covenant" -- does that new covenant take affect without us drinking from the cup?) I don't necessarily have answers to these questions; but, in line with other discussions about taking scriptures seriously, we should take seriously that "cup" is used and not "wine"; and "new covenant" is the predicate nominative in two of the four words -- not "blood" (and also in the version we use in worship).
Title: Re: CORE/NALC
Post by: Harvey_Mozolak on August 14, 2011, 08:52:21 PM
The sense that I got was that the convocation had a desire to both retain the traditional language of the Church and reject the obsession with politically correct language that they had experienced in the ELCA. The adoption of the "Father, Son and Holy Spirit" substitution and the quick rejection of the proposed "cup" amendment showed me that these former ELCA people were no longer willing to risk clear understanding and sound theology out of fear of offending someone.

I think you read the actions correctly.  And I would have vote the same had I been able to attend and not merely watch on my compu, but my interest which no one seemed to pick up back a few remarks was that when you end up having to play the role of guard too much you can end up setting up so many bars and locked doors that you end up with imprisoning rather than living.   Yes, even in the poetic there are renderings of theology in hymns and prayers, for instance, today that go over the edge and should not be used by those of orthodox faith but if you apply too much stricture to the poet, you will end up with some tripe and rehashing and nothing nobly new.   It is an are of concern to me because of the fears that pc language and neutering language use of the Godhead has made us super conscious to the point of seeing things that sometimes aren't there.   At least, I readily admit, I have.     Harvey Mozolak
Title: Re: CORE/NALC
Post by: Steven Tibbetts on August 14, 2011, 09:53:55 PM

Why would it be any more idolatrous than "bread"?

I don't know about idolatrous, but bread and wine are the words used in the Catechism.  If that's not good enough for Lutherans, I don't know what is.

Pax, Steven+
Title: Re: CORE/NALC
Post by: J. Thomas Shelley on August 14, 2011, 10:18:35 PM

Why would it be any more idolatrous than "bread"?

I don't know about idolatrous, but bread and wine are the words used in the Catechism.  If that's not good enough for Lutherans, I don't know what is.


Both bread and wine are consumed.  The vessel is not.  The closest I have come to consuming a cup is eating a wafflecone.
Title: Re: CORE/NALC
Post by: Richard Johnson on August 14, 2011, 11:22:04 PM
You know you don't have to use the "ignore function" in order to ignore inane comments.  :o
Title: Re: CORE/NALC
Post by: George Erdner on August 15, 2011, 01:21:39 AM
Is there live coverage by an ALPB person at the Core assembly going on now?

I find it interesting that no one has kvetched about this thread going off-topic yet. No one is talking about whether or not there is live coverage by an ALPB person at the CORE Assembly.
Title: Re: CORE/NALC
Post by: dkeener on August 15, 2011, 08:18:43 AM
Is there live coverage by an ALPB person at the Core assembly going on now?

I find it interesting that no one has kvetched about this thread going off-topic yet. No one is talking about whether or not there is live coverage by an ALPB person at the CORE Assembly.

I think we have all figured out the answer to the "Live" coverage question.
Title: Re: CORE/NALC
Post by: revklak on August 15, 2011, 09:07:36 AM
The sense that I got was that the convocation had a desire to both retain the traditional language of the Church and reject the obsession with politically correct language that they had experienced in the ELCA. The adoption of the "Father, Son and Holy Spirit" substitution and the quick rejection of the proposed "cup" amendment showed me that these former ELCA people were no longer willing to risk clear understanding and sound theology out of fear of offending someone.

Found this quote from Benedict XVI (from a few years ago when we was still Cardinal Ratzinger).  It expresses well, I think, the importance of language AND clarity/understanding.  It's in response to persistent petitions to have Mary officially declared "Co-Redemptrix," and explains why the RC will NOT, for the forseeable future and beyond, do so.  And also is a great example of WHY it is good for the Church as a whole to move slowly and doctrinal and theological issues, and not simply acquiesce to the moment/era. (but I digress)  Here is the quote:


“I do not think there will be any compliance with this demand, which in the meantime is being supported by several million people, within the foreseeable future. The response of the Sacred Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith is, broadly, that what is signified by this is already better expressed in other titles of Mary, while the formula “Co-redemptrix” departs to too great an extent from the language of Scripture and of the Fathers and therefore gives rise to misunderstandings. ... A correct intention is being expressed in the wrong way. For matters of faith, continuity of terminology with the language of Scripture and that of the Fathers is itself an essential element; it is improper simply to manipulate language.”
Read more: http://www.ncregister.com/blog/mark-shea/jittery-about-mary?utm_source=NCRegister.com&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=9fd370833a-RSS_DAILY_EMAIL#ixzz1Uj29FyaV

I'm just posting this as food for thought for OUR debate about language.. not to start a discussion of RC understandings and interpretations about Mary.  (Though that would be fun and timely considering today is the Feast of the Assumption of Mary, so I assume some of y'all have opinions....)
Title: Re: CORE/NALC
Post by: Harvey_Mozolak on August 15, 2011, 09:20:34 AM
continuity of terminology with the language of Scripture and that of the Fathers is itself an essential element; it is improper simply to manipulate language.”

And what is the connect and disconnect between language of scripture and continuity of language with the same?   Harvey Mozolak.
Title: Re: CORE/NALC
Post by: Team Hesse on August 15, 2011, 09:27:00 AM
continuity of terminology with the language of Scripture and that of the Fathers is itself an essential element; it is improper simply to manipulate language.”

And what is the connect and disconnect between language of scripture and continuity of language with the same?   Harvey Mozolak.
Continuity lies in the eyes (or ears) of  the beholder? The Papal office doesn't seem to have a particularly good track record in these matters except in their own mind.....

Lou
Title: Re: CORE/NALC
Post by: revklak on August 15, 2011, 10:22:38 AM
I understand your terminal anti-papal stance--- but beyond that, I like the position that not only do words MEAN something, but that one cannot simply manipulate and adjust them according to current whims.... IF they are being used (intentionally or unintentionally) in ways that allows for improper "adjustments", teachings, furthering of agendas, then is it better to become exact (dogmatic even) than to let ambiguities wide enough exist to drive even 'herchurch' through? (just as AN example)
Title: Re: CORE/NALC
Post by: Team Hesse on August 15, 2011, 10:31:24 AM
but beyond that, I like the position that not only do words MEAN something, but that one cannot simply manipulate and adjust them according to current whims.... IF they are being used (intentionally or unintentionally) in ways that allows for improper "adjustments", teachings, furthering of agendas, then is it better to become exact (dogmatic even) than to let ambiguities wide enough exist to drive even 'herchurch' through? (just as AN example)

Do you really mean to imply that any human agency is free of that which you decry?

Lou
Title: Re: CORE/NALC
Post by: revklak on August 15, 2011, 10:38:55 AM
but beyond that, I like the position that not only do words MEAN something, but that one cannot simply manipulate and adjust them according to current whims.... IF they are being used (intentionally or unintentionally) in ways that allows for improper "adjustments", teachings, furthering of agendas, then is it better to become exact (dogmatic even) than to let ambiguities wide enough exist to drive even 'herchurch' through? (just as AN example)

Do you really mean to imply that any human agency is free of that which you decry?

Lou

Not any HUMAN agency, but there are certainly some that by Christ's guidance and the Holy Spirit's protection can and does at times (a great many times, though of course not always) remain free of it and actually teaches us what God wants us to know. 

The whole sacramental system of Lutheranism is based upon it - it doesn't matter the moral quality or standing of the priest in teaching or administering sacraments, because it is Christ who is actually doing this THROUGH the priest - and therefore the sacrements are valid and there is some respect shown to the office .... seems convenient to me that it will work for a 'simple' priest like Luther (so that it doesn't matter WHAT his oppenents or even parishioners might think of him) but not for a priest of more authority such as the bishop of Rome.
Title: Re: CORE/NALC
Post by: Team Hesse on August 15, 2011, 11:48:07 AM
I am not going to derail this thread any further with discussion about the helpfulness of the Roman Church's confession and practice other than to say that discussions with missionaries in Latin America within the last two weeks have only reinforced my concerns that Roman practice in much of the world is more of a problem than a help and we do well to distance ourselves from their practice of the Christian faith.

Lou
Title: Re: CORE/NALC
Post by: revklak on August 15, 2011, 12:25:56 PM
I am not going to derail this thread any further with discussion about the helpfulness of the Roman Church's confession and practice other than to say that discussions with missionaries in Latin America within the last two weeks have only reinforced my concerns that Roman practice in much of the world is more of a problem than a help and we do well to distance ourselves from their practice of the Christian faith.

Lou

Thank you -- if you recall, I didn't want to go there, just saying the quote was interesting in context of this thread. 


I'm just posting this as food for thought for OUR debate about language.. not to start a discussion of RC understandings and interpretations about Mary.  (Though that would be fun and timely considering today is the Feast of the Assumption of Mary, so I assume some of y'all have opinions....)
Title: Re: CORE/NALC
Post by: George Erdner on August 15, 2011, 01:54:07 PM
I am not going to derail this thread any further with discussion about the helpfulness of the Roman Church's confession and practice other than to say that discussions with missionaries in Latin America within the last two weeks have only reinforced my concerns that Roman practice in much of the world is more of a problem than a help and we do well to distance ourselves from their practice of the Christian faith.

Lou

Thank you -- if you recall, I didn't want to go there, just saying the quote was interesting in context of this thread. 


I'm just posting this as food for thought for OUR debate about language.. not to start a discussion of RC understandings and interpretations about Mary.  (Though that would be fun and timely considering today is the Feast of the Assumption of Mary, so I assume some of y'all have opinions....)

This would be very much on-topic in the thread about an apology for Evangelical Catholic.
Title: Re: CORE/NALC
Post by: Team Hesse on August 15, 2011, 03:00:44 PM
I am not going to derail this thread any further with discussion about the helpfulness of the Roman Church's confession and practice other than to say that discussions with missionaries in Latin America within the last two weeks have only reinforced my concerns that Roman practice in much of the world is more of a problem than a help and we do well to distance ourselves from their practice of the Christian faith.

Lou

Thank you -- if you recall, I didn't want to go there, just saying the quote was interesting in context of this thread. 


I'm just posting this as food for thought for OUR debate about language.. not to start a discussion of RC understandings and interpretations about Mary.  (Though that would be fun and timely considering today is the Feast of the Assumption of Mary, so I assume some of y'all have opinions....)

This would be very much on-topic in the thread about an apology for Evangelical Catholic.

My understanding of that thread is that those involved wish to make a positive case for closer ties to Rome if not actual reunion with same. That is not a program I am comfortable with for a number of reasons, so I have abstained from that thread.

Lou
Title: Re: CORE/NALC
Post by: George Erdner on August 15, 2011, 04:25:25 PM
My understanding of that thread is that those involved wish to make a positive case for closer ties to Rome if not actual reunion with same. That is not a program I am comfortable with for a number of reasons, so I have abstained from that thread.

Lou

Had you not abstained and had instead read the posts in it, you would see that it is not only about closer ties to Rome.
Title: Re: CORE/NALC
Post by: Norman Sulaica, Jr. on August 15, 2011, 05:38:43 PM
I hope some here have taken advantage of the live internet feed of the Lutheran CORE theological conference to listen to the Rev. Dr. Sarah Hinlicky Wilson's presentation this evening.  It was absolutely stunning.  I particularly appreciated her response to a comment/question following her paper, in which she spoke to her own continued membership in the ELCA and called for those present to pray for all those who work at the ELCA offices on Higgins Road. 

   Plus, she gave a teaser about her own commitment to the Book of Concord:  it is in the next issue of "Lutheran Forum" magazine, so subscribe already!  :)

I truly enjoyed the week with CORE, Theo. Conf., and the NALC Convo.  I enjoyed Dr. Wilson's presentation.  Her last segment on Real Presences was a joy.  I would have enjoyed the presentation more if she would have dfocused more on this segmentt.

I was there and I agree.

Gary C. Nuss, STS

I thanked her afterward for (1) being the editor, (2) her paper, and (3) most of all for her answer to the question "what am I to do when I've been wronged?"

Mike Bennett
Title: Re: CORE/NALC
Post by: Team Hesse on August 16, 2011, 12:39:37 AM
My understanding of that thread is that those involved wish to make a positive case for closer ties to Rome if not actual reunion with same. That is not a program I am comfortable with for a number of reasons, so I have abstained from that thread.

Lou

Had you not abstained and had instead read the posts in it, you would see that it is not only about closer ties to Rome.
The launch post in that thread asked that the discussion be limited to those who were sympathetic to the concept of Evangelical Catholicism. I have tried to respect requests of that nature. I also read nearly all posts in all threads but have relatively less free time than some so my responses tend to be more limited. Finally started wheat harvest today.

Lou
Title: Re: CORE/NALC
Post by: George Erdner on August 16, 2011, 10:14:12 AM
The launch post in that thread asked that the discussion be limited to those who were sympathetic to the concept of Evangelical Catholicism. I have tried to respect requests of that nature. I also read nearly all posts in all threads but have relatively less free time than some so my responses tend to be more limited. Finally started wheat harvest today.

Lou

The next thread that sticks to what is written in the launch post will be the first. And, given that the topic of the thread was an attempt to actually define Evangelical Catholicism, it turns out that there are some who call themselves "Evangelical Catholics" who do not seek any sort of return to Rome, but who would rather see Rome come to Wittenberg.