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ALPB => Your Turn => Topic started by: G.Edward on December 14, 2010, 11:02:12 PM

Title: So What If Boys Can't Be Boys And Men Can't Be Men?
Post by: G.Edward on December 14, 2010, 11:02:12 PM
Just read an article from the September 2005 issue of Touchstone Magazine by Anthony Esolen.

http://www.touchstonemag.com/archives/article.php?id=18-07-021-f (http://www.touchstonemag.com/archives/article.php?id=18-07-021-f)

What do you think about Esolen's contention that the sexual revolution and the sexualization of our culture has destroyed the foundational relational components?
Title: Re: So What If Boys Can't Be Boys And Men Can't Be Men?
Post by: Charles_Austin on December 15, 2010, 05:00:02 AM
I don't know if I ever had a "foundational relational component." I've got a lot of old audio components stuck in a drawer somewhere. Maybe there's one in there, but I don't think so.
Title: Re: So What If Boys Can't Be Boys And Men Can't Be Men?
Post by: Dadoo on December 15, 2010, 07:38:13 AM
I am struck that this article is a, perhaps more sophisticated, version of Iron John, FIre in the Belly, and the Sibling Society, all by Robert Bly, all fro the 90's. I thought them over done when I read them. Maybe I am wrong about that but maybe this article is wrong too. It might be overlooking life outside of the ivory towers. Sure, it is not easy anymore to gather a couple of guys around the concept of writing poetry or composing for Broadway. But if you live in a little, blue collar, Ohio village and you put an old Ford PU truck on blocks and back the engine hoist up to the hood, you and your neighbor men will have a great afternoon of friendship coming your way. The same goes for cold winter Saturdays with snow mobiles - for that matter, there are plenty of hunting trips to the Upper Peninsula of Michigan as well as 4 wheeler weekend trips to W. Virginia.

I am not so sure that male friendship is all dead, neither it the concept of intergenerational male friendship, and, no, these are not tainted by the suspicion of sexual conduct. The yarn spun here has some merit, but I do not think that he severity suggested is warranted.

What I see of value is the warning not to take the current societal assumptions and fears and values and impose them on the past, when male - male friendship might just have had a different flavor.
Title: Re: So What If Boys Can't Be Boys And Men Can't Be Men?
Post by: Michael Slusser on December 15, 2010, 08:26:02 AM
I am struck that this article is a, perhaps more sophisticated, version of Iron John, FIre in the Belly, and the Sibling Society, all by Robert Bly, all fro the 90's.


Fire in the Belly was written by Sam Keen, not Robert Bly.

Alfred Gingold wrote a humorous riposte to both of them, Fire in the John (NY: St Martin's Press, 1991).  :D

Peace,
Michael
Title: Re: So What If Boys Can't Be Boys And Men Can't Be Men?
Post by: Maryland Brian on December 15, 2010, 08:51:58 AM

 But if you live in a little, blue collar, Ohio village and you put an old Ford PU truck on blocks and back the engine hoist up to the hood, you and your neighbor men will have a great afternoon of friendship coming your way. The same goes for cold winter Saturdays with snow mobiles - for that matter, there are plenty of hunting trips to the Upper Peninsula of Michigan as well as 4 wheeler weekend trips to W. Virginia.


Buy a cruiser motorcycle and you'll soon discover a group of men who will go riding with you.  Offer to bless the bikes and you'll be invited to join a motorcycle club as their chaplain.  Take up competitive shooting and a group of men will meet up with you at the range. Offer a flying fishing clinic one weekend and a fishing/camping weekend retreat the next and a lot of guys will go to Bass Pro and get ready. Invite men to bring their hotrods, custom bikes, restored vehicles to church on Father's Day and you'll fill your parking lot with "manly toys" belonging to unchurched friends.  And they'll likely also wander into church.

Men need friends.  Sitting around quoting poetry with each other isn't going to happen. They also want, surprisingly, a robust faith.  The church has many opportunities to reach these guys.  Just leave out the "Our Mother in Heaven" stuff.

Title: Re: So What If Boys Can't Be Boys And Men Can't Be Men?
Post by: Dadoo on December 15, 2010, 09:04:32 AM
I am struck that this article is a, perhaps more sophisticated, version of Iron John, FIre in the Belly, and the Sibling Society, all by Robert Bly, all fro the 90's.


Fire in the Belly was written by Sam Keen, not Robert Bly.

Alfred Gingold wrote a humorous riposte to both of them, Fire in the John (NY: St Martin's Press, 1991).  :D

Peace,
Michael

Thank you for that correction.

ANd yes, Fire in the John is a funny book.
Title: Re: So What If Boys Can't Be Boys And Men Can't Be Men?
Post by: Dadoo on December 15, 2010, 09:14:37 AM

 But if you live in a little, blue collar, Ohio village and you put an old Ford PU truck on blocks and back the engine hoist up to the hood, you and your neighbor men will have a great afternoon of friendship coming your way. The same goes for cold winter Saturdays with snow mobiles - for that matter, there are plenty of hunting trips to the Upper Peninsula of Michigan as well as 4 wheeler weekend trips to W. Virginia.


Buy a cruiser motorcycle and you'll soon discover a group of men who will go riding with you.  Offer to bless the bikes and you'll be invited to join a motorcycle club as their chaplain.  Take up competitive shooting and a group of men will meet up with you at the range. Offer a flying fishing clinic one weekend and a fishing/camping weekend retreat the next and a lot of guys will go to Bass Pro and get ready. Invite men to bring their hotrods, custom bikes, restored vehicles to church on Father's Day and you'll fill your parking lot with "manly toys" belonging to unchurched friends.  And they'll likely also wander into church.

Men need friends.  Sitting around quoting poetry with each other isn't going to happen. They also want, surprisingly, a robust faith.  The church has many opportunities to reach these guys.  Just leave out the "Our Mother in Heaven" stuff.



Been there, done that. Saw pic of yours on FaceBook. Cool ride. Traded lateral for a NT700V this year; the car got little use this summer.

 . . .and you are right: What has changed are the activities that men will involve themselves in, not the involvement itself. Some of those pastimes get, what was the Gingold term, "sissified" and therefore abandoned. New ones are found all the time. (Poetry, thankfully, is not one of them.) Men seem to make friends by activity that hints at trial. The best friends I had (both dead) were made hunting and we did not talk much when we were out chasing quail through middle Tennessee, we did not have to. Maybe this is how men make friends . . .
Title: Re: So What If Boys Can't Be Boys And Men Can't Be Men?
Post by: Karl Hess on December 15, 2010, 09:40:36 AM

 But if you live in a little, blue collar, Ohio village and you put an old Ford PU truck on blocks and back the engine hoist up to the hood, you and your neighbor men will have a great afternoon of friendship coming your way. The same goes for cold winter Saturdays with snow mobiles - for that matter, there are plenty of hunting trips to the Upper Peninsula of Michigan as well as 4 wheeler weekend trips to W. Virginia.


Buy a cruiser motorcycle and you'll soon discover a group of men who will go riding with you.  Offer to bless the bikes and you'll be invited to join a motorcycle club as their chaplain.  Take up competitive shooting and a group of men will meet up with you at the range. Offer a flying fishing clinic one weekend and a fishing/camping weekend retreat the next and a lot of guys will go to Bass Pro and get ready. Invite men to bring their hotrods, custom bikes, restored vehicles to church on Father's Day and you'll fill your parking lot with "manly toys" belonging to unchurched friends.  And they'll likely also wander into church.

Men need friends.  Sitting around quoting poetry with each other isn't going to happen. They also want, surprisingly, a robust faith.  The church has many opportunities to reach these guys.  Just leave out the "Our Mother in Heaven" stuff.



Poetry is great, but Iron John was stupid.  I do think we need to re-teach masculinity and femininity, or maybe better to re-teach Christian vocation.  We have inadvertantly perhaps, made men uncomfortable in church.
Title: Re: So What If Boys Can't Be Boys And Men Can't Be Men?
Post by: Charles_Austin on December 15, 2010, 09:44:30 AM
Pastor Kruse writes:
What has changed are the activities that men will involve themselves in, not the involvement itself. Some of those pastimes get, what was the Gingold term, "sissified" and therefore abandoned. New ones are found all the time. (Poetry, thankfully, is not one of them.) Men seem to make friends by activity that hints at trial. The best friends I had (both dead) were made hunting and we did not talk much when we were out chasing quail through middle Tennessee, we did not have to. Maybe this is how men make friends . . .

I muse:
So sexism reigns. What the heck is wrong with poetry? Does male bonding have to occur while planning to kill something? Do male friends have to be made through quasi-phallic machines like motorcycles or power tools (dodging for now, the erotic aspects of both).
Some of my good male friends and I get together at plays and concerts. Some of us sing barbershop harmony or male chorus music. But, of course, those aren't "real man" activities, are they?  ::) ::)
Title: Re: So What If Boys Can't Be Boys And Men Can't Be Men?
Post by: Kurt Weinelt on December 15, 2010, 10:06:58 AM
....Some of us sing barbershop harmony or male chorus music. But, of course, those aren't "real man" activities, are they?  ::) ::)
Sure they can be, esp. if followed up by a brewski or trip to the range. BTW, I just sang in a chorus the last three nights with the Air Force Band of the West, and some of the singers had war injuries. Much of the talk in the green room was definitely male bonding, such as dogs, weapons, cars, hunting, war (literally) stories. So you see, Pr. Austin, we made it a "real man" activity, and so can you! ;D
Kurt
Title: Re: So What If Boys Can't Be Boys And Men Can't Be Men?
Post by: Charles_Austin on December 15, 2010, 10:11:11 AM
Kurt Weinelt writes:
Sure they can be, esp. if followed up by a brewski or trip to the range. BTW, I just sang in a chorus the last three nights with the Air Force Band of the West, and some of the singers had war injuries. Much of the talk in the green room was definitely male bonding, such as dogs, weapons, cars, hunting, war (literally) stories. So you see, Pr. Austin, we made it a "real man" activity, and so can you!

I muse:
Some of us can also manage male friendship without that other alleged necessity for bonding, alcohol. And among some of my older friends the talk in the green room is of prostate difficulties, arthritis, heart medications, grandchildren and the war stories of the corporate world we have survived, though some of us bear wounds.
Glad to have another vocalist online here.  ;D
Title: Re: So What If Boys Can't Be Boys And Men Can't Be Men?
Post by: Kurt Weinelt on December 15, 2010, 10:16:21 AM
A second bass, mind you. Not one of those tenors! ;)
Title: Re: So What If Boys Can't Be Boys And Men Can't Be Men?
Post by: Charles_Austin on December 15, 2010, 10:17:34 AM
Bari here. Tenor in church choirs, not in barbershop or male chorus settings.
Title: Re: So What If Boys Can't Be Boys And Men Can't Be Men?
Post by: Dadoo on December 15, 2010, 10:30:21 AM
Iron John managed to out it's finger on a symptom, correctly I add, but then proposed a poor resolution to the problem. If that makes it "stupid," OK.

If you enjoy poetry, again, fine. My post is trying to interact with the article that was commended to us in the opening post. I think it has some flaws, some blind spots, but also some merit. Among the latter it has rightly, I believe, pointed out that certain activities are in our culture no longer seen as "male" activities. In other words, these might once have been things men did for the furtherance and development of friendship but they are that no longer. Poetry groups may continue to exist, men might attend them still, but they no longer fill the nich and need that the article describes them filling in the times of Tolkien. What Brian H. Is pointing out in response to me is good sense evangelism. Yes, you can start a poetry group at church, no problem. Don't however think that the guys will flock to it. You can however do the things that Brian suggests and fairly reliably get a group of men to show up. Maybe that is not what the article really was about or what the author cared about when he was writing it. But it is good advice: one has to get to them where they live.


 But if you live in a little, blue collar, Ohio village and you put an old Ford PU truck on blocks and back the engine hoist up to the hood, you and your neighbor men will have a great afternoon of friendship coming your way. The same goes for cold winter Saturdays with snow mobiles - for that matter, there are plenty of hunting trips to the Upper Peninsula of Michigan as well as 4 wheeler weekend trips to W. Virginia.


Buy a cruiser motorcycle and you'll soon discover a group of men who will go riding with you.  Offer to bless the bikes and you'll be invited to join a motorcycle club as their chaplain.  Take up competitive shooting and a group of men will meet up with you at the range. Offer a flying fishing clinic one weekend and a fishing/camping weekend retreat the next and a lot of guys will go to Bass Pro and get ready. Invite men to bring their hotrods, custom bikes, restored vehicles to church on Father's Day and you'll fill your parking lot with "manly toys" belonging to unchurched friends.  And they'll likely also wander into church.

Men need friends.  Sitting around quoting poetry with each other isn't going to happen. They also want, surprisingly, a robust faith.  The church has many opportunities to reach these guys.  Just leave out the "Our Mother in Heaven" stuff.



Poetry is great, but Iron John was stupid.  I do think we need to re-teach masculinity and femininity, or maybe better to re-teach Christian vocation.  We have inadvertantly perhaps, made men uncomfortable in church.
Title: Re: So What If Boys Can't Be Boys And Men Can't Be Men?
Post by: Maryland Brian on December 15, 2010, 10:39:31 AM

So sexism reigns. What the heck is wrong with poetry? Does male bonding have to occur while planning to kill something? Do male friends have to be made through quasi-phallic machines like motorcycles or power tools (dodging for now, the erotic aspects of both).
Some of my good male friends and I get together at plays and concerts. Some of us sing barbershop harmony or male chorus music. But, of course, those aren't "real man" activities, are they?  ::) ::)


  No, they are not real men activities Charles.  How much danger can there be in a male chorus, dirty looks if singing off-key?  A hissy-fit if your bowtie is the wrong color?  Then again, a man has to learn his limitations.  And, btw, just in case you're wondering, I probably have the best baritone voice in my congregation. And the leader of our contemporary band is an amazing tenor.  A Peabody grad, he use to sing with the Baltimore Opera.  More importantly, he also use to be a Baltimore City cop, but was injured in the line of duty.  He still rides his full dresser Harley Electra Glide.  Manly.  
Title: Re: So What If Boys Can't Be Boys And Men Can't Be Men?
Post by: Dadoo on December 15, 2010, 10:43:35 AM
Yes. Sexism reigns. What is wrong with that? We make decision based on the sex of another person all the time. When the synod council position says: lay female, then men are not eligible. When the WELCA elects their next president, you and I will not be on the ballot, neither are we delegates to the assembly, and neither do I want to be. I have no problem with any of that. We have a women's organization and it does not include men.  Sexism? Sure. Do I mind? No.
Now: let's work on allowing men to have such a group as well. Yes, exclusive, men only, and no attempts to include " dismantling the culture of sexism and male privilege" kind of platforms in the founding document.
That done, I would think that the authors complaint that there are new implications and connotations in the concept of men gathering that need to be addressed.

Pastor Kruse writes:
What has changed are the activities that men will involve themselves in, not the involvement itself. Some of those pastimes get, what was the Gingold term, "sissified" and therefore abandoned. New ones are found all the time. (Poetry, thankfully, is not one of them.) Men seem to make friends by activity that hints at trial. The best friends I had (both dead) were made hunting and we did not talk much when we were out chasing quail through middle Tennessee, we did not have to. Maybe this is how men make friends . . .

I muse:
So sexism reigns. What the heck is wrong with poetry? Does male bonding have to occur while planning to kill something? Do male friends have to be made through quasi-phallic machines like motorcycles or power tools (dodging for now, the erotic aspects of both).
Some of my good male friends and I get together at plays and concerts. Some of us sing barbershop harmony or male chorus music. But, of course, those aren't "real man" activities, are they?  ::) ::)
Title: Re: So What If Boys Can't Be Boys And Men Can't Be Men?
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on December 15, 2010, 10:52:16 AM
Yes. Sexism reigns. What is wrong with that? We make decision based on the sex of another person all the time. When the synod council position says: lay female, then men are not eligible. When the WELCA elects their next president, you and I will not be on the ballot, neither are we delegates to the assembly, and neither do I want to be. I have no problem with any of that. We have a women's organization and it does not include men.  Sexism? Sure. Do I mind? No.
Now: let's work on allowing men to have such a group as well. Yes, exclusive, men only, and no attempts to include " dismantling the culture of sexism and male privilege" kind of platforms in the founding document.

The ELCA has a men's group.
Title: Re: So What If Boys Can't Be Boys And Men Can't Be Men?
Post by: Dadoo on December 15, 2010, 11:22:12 AM
Yes. Sexism reigns. What is wrong with that? We make decision based on the sex of another person all the time. When the synod council position says: lay female, then men are not eligible. When the WELCA elects their next president, you and I will not be on the ballot, neither are we delegates to the assembly, and neither do I want to be. I have no problem with any of that. We have a women's organization and it does not include men.  Sexism? Sure. Do I mind? No.
Now: let's work on allowing men to have such a group as well. Yes, exclusive, men only, and no attempts to include " dismantling the culture of sexism and male privilege" kind of platforms in the founding document.

The ELCA has a men's group.

. . . whose web site has no section on poetry, barbershop quartets, but which does have pictures of spark plugs and whose resources do include the advice that to reach young men for Christ, bars might be a good place to find them and to begin to understand them.  ;D
Title: Re: So What If Boys Can't Be Boys And Men Can't Be Men?
Post by: Charles_Austin on December 15, 2010, 01:44:38 PM
Pastor Hughes writes:
No, they are not real men activities Charles.  How much danger can there be in a male chorus, dirty looks if singing off-key?  A hissy-fit if your bowtie is the wrong color?  Then again, a man has to learn his limitations.  And, btw, just in case you're wondering, I probably have the best baritone voice in my congregation. And the leader of our contemporary band is an amazing tenor.  A Peabody grad, he use to sing with the Baltimore Opera.  More importantly, he also use to be a Baltimore City cop, but was injured in the line of duty.  He still rides his full dresser Harley Electra Glide.  Manly. 

I muse:
Absolutely amazing. The insecurity simply oozes through the post. Get over yourself. Get "manly" however you can. If you get your "manly" kicks dealing death, riding a motorized penis or hanging out with people who do, have fun.
Title: Re: So What If Boys Can't Be Boys And Men Can't Be Men?
Post by: James Gustafson on December 15, 2010, 02:07:46 PM
I muse:
Absolutely amazing. The insecurity simply oozes through the post. Get over yourself. Get "manly" however you can. If you get your "manly" kicks dealing death, riding a motorized penis or hanging out with people who do, have fun.

Motorized penis? LMAO.  I suspect this says something other than what the words were meant to say, but hey, I'm no dream interpreter.  Death dealing motorized penis... *haha  :D OMgoodness*
Title: Re: So What If Boys Can't Be Boys And Men Can't Be Men?
Post by: A Catholic Lutheran on December 15, 2010, 02:14:48 PM
I muse:
Absolutely amazing. The insecurity simply oozes through the post. Get over yourself. Get "manly" however you can. If you get your "manly" kicks dealing death, riding a motorized penis or hanging out with people who do, have fun.

Motorized penis? LMAO.  I suspect this says something other than what the words were meant to say, but hey, I'm no dream interpreter.  Death dealing motorized penis... *haha  :D OMgoodness*

You need to be able to hear the "whimsy" in Charles' comments...

Stay classy, Chuckles.

Pax Christi;
Pr. Jerry Kliner, STS
Title: Re: So What If Boys Can't Be Boys And Men Can't Be Men?
Post by: kls on December 15, 2010, 02:23:17 PM
I was in my happy place before reading this thread.   :o  Charles sure has a sense of humor!  I think a great man is one who can be manly and tough when needed but also full of compassion when necessary.  I think Jesus got it right on both counts; I have full confidence you all can, too.
Title: Re: So What If Boys Can't Be Boys And Men Can't Be Men?
Post by: Chuck Sampson on December 15, 2010, 03:14:00 PM
Pastor Hughes writes:
No, they are not real men activities Charles.  How much danger can there be in a male chorus, dirty looks if singing off-key?  A hissy-fit if your bowtie is the wrong color?  Then again, a man has to learn his limitations.  And, btw, just in case you're wondering, I probably have the best baritone voice in my congregation. And the leader of our contemporary band is an amazing tenor.  A Peabody grad, he use to sing with the Baltimore Opera.  More importantly, he also use to be a Baltimore City cop, but was injured in the line of duty.  He still rides his full dresser Harley Electra Glide.  Manly. 

I muse:
Absolutely amazing. The insecurity simply oozes through the post. Get over yourself. Get "manly" however you can. If you get your "manly" kicks dealing death, riding a motorized penis or hanging out with people who do, have fun.
I muse [and under my real name]:
True security might entail simply disagreeing without impugning character of the other poster.   Or was this simply another flight into "whimsy"?   ::)
Title: Re: So What If Boys Can't Be Boys And Men Can't Be Men?
Post by: Pilgrim on December 15, 2010, 03:26:16 PM
Absolutely amazing. The insecurity simply oozes through the post. Get over yourself. Get "manly" however you can. If you get your "manly" kicks dealing death, riding a motorized penis or hanging out with people who do, have fun.

Pilgrim notes: Methinks I misunderstood that "whimsy" was purportedly non-unsulting. Therefore, duly noting aforementioned quote and adding "whimsical" emphasis - Physician, heal thyself.  :P
Title: Re: So What If Boys Can't Be Boys And Men Can't Be Men?
Post by: Charles_Austin on December 15, 2010, 03:29:19 PM
Nope. No whimsy. This was a direct attack on one of the most asinine comments I have read in years of perusing this discussion board.
Title: Re: So What If Boys Can't Be Boys And Men Can't Be Men?
Post by: Maryland Brian on December 15, 2010, 03:31:36 PM

Motorized penis? LMAO.  I suspect this says something other than what the words were meant to say, but hey, I'm no dream interpreter.  Death dealing motorized penis... *haha  :D OMgoodness*

Well, Freud did talk about envy ya know ...   ;)

On a more serious note, if the church Charles continually celebrates did, in point of fact, have large numbers of young men as members, perhaps we could take him seriously. I mean, it would be nice to find a reason to take him seriously.  Any reason at all.

The truth is still before us: many of our congregations hold little appeal to men.  The reasons why and what are effective ways to reach them might be an interesting set of things we could share. I've shared how we are reaching a large number of men in Columbia, Md.
Title: Re: So What If Boys Can't Be Boys And Men Can't Be Men?
Post by: Maryland Brian on December 15, 2010, 03:35:20 PM
Nope. No whimsy. This was a direct attack on one of the most asinine comments I have read in years of perusing this discussion board.

  An attack, yes.  Effective rebuttal?  Hardly.
Title: Re: So What If Boys Can't Be Boys And Men Can't Be Men?
Post by: GoCubsGo on December 15, 2010, 03:45:20 PM
Nope. No whimsy. This was a direct attack on one of the most asinine comments I have read in years of perusing this discussion board.

Having posted so many assinine comments yourself, you should be an expert eh?   ;D

And FWIW, there is nothing wrong with poetry--if you can find 4 or 5 guys who want to get together and debate Shakesperean sonnets go for it.  But sorry Charlie, I can't imagine finding such a grouping outside of the academy (nothing wrong with that again).  As a cyclist, (the kind that loves riding bicycles not motorcycles) I have been ridiculed and called "gay."  For some reason wearing tight shorts and hanging with some guys who shave their legs (I don't now and haven't in years) makes people say the dumbest of things.

Who cares?  If you want to read poetry or attend the opera go do it.  If someone says it isn't manly who cares as long as you enjoy it.  But don't try to tell me that the epitome of "manliness" is a barber shop quartet or attending La Bohemme.  I can tell you, that if I want to get guys together to hang out it won't be for theater, it will be for football or fishing and sometimes for going on a long ride for fitness and fellowship.
Title: Re: So What If Boys Can't Be Boys And Men Can't Be Men?
Post by: Dadoo on December 15, 2010, 03:47:19 PM
Pastor Hughes writes:
No, they are not real men activities Charles.  How much danger can there be in a male chorus, dirty looks if singing off-key?  A hissy-fit if your bowtie is the wrong color?  Then again, a man has to learn his limitations.  And, btw, just in case you're wondering, I probably have the best baritone voice in my congregation. And the leader of our contemporary band is an amazing tenor.  A Peabody grad, he use to sing with the Baltimore Opera.  More importantly, he also use to be a Baltimore City cop, but was injured in the line of duty.  He still rides his full dresser Harley Electra Glide.  Manly. 

I muse:
Absolutely amazing. The insecurity simply oozes through the post. Get over yourself. Get "manly" however you can. If you get your "manly" kicks dealing death, riding a motorized penis or hanging out with people who do, have fun.

My favorite Star Treck Next Generation episodes features Picard "in Limbo" with his artificial heart stopped by a electric discharge. There he is accosted by the chaotic presence "Q." How  did he loose the heart? Playing pool with a bunch on Nasegens, vile and violent race of aliens. Not only that, he had challenged them to the game and was probably cheating. GOt himself stabbed through the back and needed a new, artificial heart. ALl that happened when Picard was in his 20's. Q gives him the chance to do it all over. Of corse, being now 120 Picard tries like the dickens not to take the chances he took while young. He ends up on the Enterprise at age 120, a second Lieutenant science officer instead of captain. Q grants him the chance to go back once more and he takes all the chances he did as a 20 year old and gets killed once more by the Nasegan only to awaken in sickbay, laughing.

Moral of the story for this thread, Charles, what you call death dealing is just normal for 20 year olds. By belittling them for riding or denigrating the need for adventure and risk in a young mans life, you prove the article somewhat right.  Our old men have a problem being elders to us. Not the central point of the author but not unimportant. If you want to talk with young guys you might just need to be available to talk about extreme sports and not sneer. ANd to deal with blue collar men, calling their Harley's derogatory names is just plain anti evangelical.
Title: Re: So What If Boys Can't Be Boys And Men Can't Be Men?
Post by: Maryland Brian on December 15, 2010, 03:55:00 PM


Who cares?  If you want to read poetry or attend the opera go do it.  If someone says it isn't manly who cares as long as you enjoy it.  But don't try to tell me that the epitome of "manliness" is a barber shop quartet or attending La Bohemme.  I can tell you, that if I want to get guys together to hang out it won't be for theater, it will be for football or fishing and sometimes for going on a long ride for fitness and fellowship.

If you ever come out to Maryland, let me know and I'd love to introduce you to our cyclists.  The key leaders in the organization linked below are active members of the congregation. AFC has expanded into a group of fifty plus riders who also compete.  Last summer they set a US record for a tream riding across the country on single gear bikes.

Mike was our council president last year.  

http://adventuresforthecure.com/team/mensTeam.html#Mike%20West (http://adventuresforthecure.com/team/mensTeam.html#Mike%20West)


Title: Re: So What If Boys Can't Be Boys And Men Can't Be Men?
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on December 15, 2010, 04:03:01 PM
Methinks that Jesus would have chastised any of his disciples who pulled out a firearm to defend him in the Garden of Gethsemane. He certainly did not play the "macho" image of a man as he allowed himself to be physically and verbally abused without fighting back or calling on the legion of angels to fight back.
Title: Re: So What If Boys Can't Be Boys And Men Can't Be Men?
Post by: Charles_Austin on December 15, 2010, 04:10:34 PM
Wow! Seemed to have touched a testosterone nerve here....

Pastor Copeck writes:
And FWIW, there is nothing wrong with poetry--if you can find 4 or 5 guys who want to get together and debate Shakesperean sonnets go for it.  But sorry Charlie, I can't imagine finding such a grouping outside of the academy (nothing wrong with that again).  
I muse:
But of course, those "academy" guys aren't true guys, right?

Pastor Copeck:
As a cyclist, (the kind that loves riding bicycles not motorcycles) I have been ridiculed and called "gay."  For some reason wearing tight shorts and hanging with some guys who shave their legs (I don't now and haven't in years) makes people say the dumbest of things.
I comment:
Life is tough.

Pastor Copeck:
Who cares?  If you want to read poetry or attend the opera go do it.  If someone says it isn't manly who cares as long as you enjoy it.  But don't try to tell me that the epitome of "manliness" is a barber shop quartet or attending La Bohemme.
Me:
I didn't try to tell you that. And BTW, it's La Bohème

Pastor Copeck:
I can tell you, that if I want to get guys together to hang out it won't be for theater, it will be for football or fishing and sometimes for going on a long ride for fitness and fellowship.
Me:
O.k. So?

Pastor Kruse writes:
Moral of the story for this thread, Charles, what you call death dealing is just normal for 20 year olds.
I muse:
Or for 50-year olds, which is how old I was when I skied the Vallee Blanche in Chamonix. But it wasn't
"normal," it was just something I wanted to do.

Pastor Kruse:
By belittling them for riding or denigrating the need for adventure and risk in a young mans life, you prove the article somewhat right.  
Me:
I do not belittle. I only say that dealing with death, booze, risky sports (and somehow we have left out hot women) is not - as much fun as those things are or were - the only description of masculinity.

Pastor Kruse:
Our old men have a problem being elders to us. Not the central point of the author but not unimportant. If you want to talk with young guys you might just need to be available to talk about extreme sports and not sneer. ANd to deal with blue collar men, calling their Harley's derogatory names is just plain anti evangelical.
Me:
I do not sneer. And right now my crotch-rocket description is only directed at the one beneath Pastor Hughes. Three or four guys I see regularly, one with a stunning set of tats, have machines that would probably out-hoss his by a good measure. I prayed with them as they headed out to Sturgis last summer. (Damn! Here I go trying to tote up macho points. Hate it when that happens.)
Title: Re: So What If Boys Can't Be Boys And Men Can't Be Men?
Post by: Maryland Brian on December 15, 2010, 04:12:13 PM
I was in my happy place before reading this thread.   :o  Charles sure has a sense of humor!  I think a great man is one who can be manly and tough when needed but also full of compassion when necessary.  I think Jesus got it right on both counts; I have full confidence you all can, too.

See link.  Our cyclists raised the funds and had this bike built after they happened to see the "Team Hoyt" video I used in a sermon.  The dad is also one of our Lay Pastors, having a heart for fathers with special needs children.  The day the bike was delivered everyone was in tears as together on the custom bike  dad took his son for their first ever bike ride.

http://adventuresforthecure.com/campaigns/luke.html (http://adventuresforthecure.com/campaigns/luke.html)

Goggle Team Hoyt and Journey of Life Together to watch the video that inspired our men.



Title: Re: So What If Boys Can't Be Boys And Men Can't Be Men?
Post by: Maryland Brian on December 15, 2010, 04:15:39 PM


Me:
I do not sneer.



Yet, you seemed to have insulted so many ...
Title: Re: So What If Boys Can't Be Boys And Men Can't Be Men?
Post by: ptmccain on December 15, 2010, 04:18:17 PM
This is, actually, a very significant issue for the church, particularly across the liberal mainline where there has been embrace of "gender neutered" versions of everything: the ministry, the Scriptures, the Christian faith, etc. etc. The radical feminization and now homosexualization of the church has had extremely negative consequences for men.

I can't blame any man for not wanting to attend a church pastored by a gay man or a lesbian, not to mention a women. The frilly, fluffy, feminization of theology plays no better for any normal man than forcing him to shop in a fabric store or to take flower arranging classes.

"Pink/Rainbow" Power has taken over liberal church bodies and the men are simply tuning out.

No surprises here.
Title: Re: So What If Boys Can't Be Boys And Men Can't Be Men?
Post by: kls on December 15, 2010, 04:22:56 PM
Methinks that Jesus would have chastised any of his disciples who pulled out a firearm to defend him in the Garden of Gethsemane. He certainly did not play the "macho" image of a man as he allowed himself to be physically and verbally abused without fighting back or calling on the legion of angels to fight back.

The very things Jesus endured leading up to and during His time on the cross is something no man but He could ever withstand; that's true macho-man/God stuff in my book.
Title: Re: So What If Boys Can't Be Boys And Men Can't Be Men?
Post by: Karl Hess on December 15, 2010, 04:26:48 PM
Typically boys stop coming to church around puberty.  They don't want to do hand motions and make crafts in Sunday School anymore.  Liturgy can be attractive to men, because it isn't sentimental, but then Lutheran churches have often replaced liturgy with forms of contemporary worship that appeal to women more than men.
Title: Re: So What If Boys Can't Be Boys And Men Can't Be Men?
Post by: GoCubsGo on December 15, 2010, 04:50:41 PM
Wow! Seemed to have touched a testosterone nerve here....

Pastor Copeck:
Who cares?  If you want to read poetry or attend the opera go do it.  If someone says it isn't manly who cares as long as you enjoy it.  But don't try to tell me that the epitome of "manliness" is a barber shop quartet or attending La Bohemme.
Me:
I didn't try to tell you that. And BTW, it's La Bohème

My point, was and still is:  WHO CARES?  If reading poetry or going to La Boheeme (deliberately misspelled just for the fun of it) makes you feel manly go right ahead.  But know that those activities are generally seen as "manly."  Do what you like--that's my motto.  And no nerve touched here other than the one that gets ticked off when someone corrects spelling and grammar on an online message board.  I'll see you at Le BohemmeT'es vraiment trop con!
Title: Re: So What If Boys Can't Be Boys And Men Can't Be Men?
Post by: George Erdner on December 15, 2010, 05:18:15 PM
Is the constant pedantic correction of other peoples' errors, no matter how slight or beside the point they might be, a sign of manliness?
Title: Re: So What If Boys Can't Be Boys And Men Can't Be Men?
Post by: ptmccain on December 15, 2010, 05:22:01 PM
George, no, it is a symptom of what may be a permanent condition known as "fuss-budgetry." Not manly at all, just annoying, like listening to one's great aunts talk about her bunions.

 ;D
Title: Re: So What If Boys Can't Be Boys And Men Can't Be Men?
Post by: Pilgrim on December 15, 2010, 05:27:36 PM
Dang, there went my bunion story in that sermon... ;D ;D ;D You guys are ruining all the fun!!!  ;D ;D
Title: Re: So What If Boys Can't Be Boys And Men Can't Be Men?
Post by: Dan Fienen on December 15, 2010, 05:35:54 PM
One of the things that I find interesting about the show "MythBusters" is that while they do dangerous things on the show (and some of it is truly dnagerous, especially handling explosive materials and guns) they also use and show extensive safety precautions.  While there is often an element of danger in their investigations, they do those things as safely as possible and treat the safety precautions as a normal, expected element.  They are not about taking unnecessary risks and their masculinity does not suffer in the process.

Dan
Title: Re: So What If Boys Can't Be Boys And Men Can't Be Men?
Post by: Maryland Brian on December 15, 2010, 05:39:55 PM
Dang, there went my bunion story in that sermon... ;D ;D ;D You guys are ruining all the fun!!!  ;D ;D

The interim before me for the  congregation in California offered up a sermon series on her journey through menopause.  I feel a need to preach about my prostate ...  What either would have to do with the Gospel would be a stretch, at least I think so.  Hmmm ... Too many hours on that motorized, well, you know ...
Title: Re: So What If Boys Can't Be Boys And Men Can't Be Men?
Post by: ptmccain on December 15, 2010, 05:40:32 PM
Dang, there went my bunion story in that sermon... ;D ;D ;D You guys are ruining all the fun!!!  ;D ;D

Comment, for the win!

 ;D ;D
Title: Re: So What If Boys Can't Be Boys And Men Can't Be Men?
Post by: ptmccain on December 15, 2010, 05:42:40 PM
One of the things that I find interesting about the show "MythBusters" is that while they do dangerous things on the show (and some of it is truly dnagerous, especially handling explosive materials and guns) they also use and show extensive safety precautions.  While there is often an element of danger in their investigations, they do those things as safely as possible and treat the safety precautions as a normal, expected element.  They are not about taking unnecessary risks and their masculinity does not suffer in the process.

Dan

Mythbusters is my, and my boys', favorite show, right up there with Dirty Jobs.
Title: Re: So What If Boys Can't Be Boys And Men Can't Be Men?
Post by: Pilgrim on December 15, 2010, 06:02:57 PM
The interim before me for the  congregation in California offered up a sermon series on her journey through menopause.  I feel a need to preach about my prostate ...  What either would have to do with the Gospel would be a stretch, at least I think so.  Hmmm ... Too many hours on that motorized, well, you know ...

Oh thanks a lot... now the prostate sermon is on the ashpile, along with the one on that motorized, uh, yeah, well, I know. Between you and Paul there won't be much left to preach about except Christ, and Him crucified (or has the new exegetes taken that off the list, too?)  ;)
Title: Re: So What If Boys Can't Be Boys And Men Can't Be Men?
Post by: efretheim on December 15, 2010, 06:37:52 PM
Methinks that Jesus would have chastised any of his disciples who pulled out a firearm to defend him in the Garden of Gethsemane. He certainly did not play the "macho" image of a man as he allowed himself to be physically and verbally abused without fighting back or calling on the legion of angels to fight back.

The very things Jesus endured leading up to and during His time on the cross is something no man but He could ever withstand; that's true macho-man/God stuff in my book.

Yup, he could do that when he needed to.  And he could also pull out the whip and drive out the money changers in good macho fashion as well. 
Title: Re: So What If Boys Can't Be Boys And Men Can't Be Men?
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on December 15, 2010, 06:43:44 PM
Methinks that Jesus would have chastised any of his disciples who pulled out a firearm to defend him in the Garden of Gethsemane. He certainly did not play the "macho" image of a man as he allowed himself to be physically and verbally abused without fighting back or calling on the legion of angels to fight back.

The very things Jesus endured leading up to and during His time on the cross is something no man but He could ever withstand; that's true macho-man/God stuff in my book.

I agree, but it also is counter to so much of what our culture deems to be "manly".
Title: Re: So What If Boys Can't Be Boys And Men Can't Be Men?
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on December 15, 2010, 06:45:13 PM
One of the things that I find interesting about the show "MythBusters" is that while they do dangerous things on the show (and some of it is truly dnagerous, especially handling explosive materials and guns) they also use and show extensive safety precautions.  While there is often an element of danger in their investigations, they do those things as safely as possible and treat the safety precautions as a normal, expected element.  They are not about taking unnecessary risks and their masculinity does not suffer in the process.

Especially for the female(s) who have been on the show.
Title: Re: So What If Boys Can't Be Boys And Men Can't Be Men?
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on December 15, 2010, 06:46:18 PM
One of the things that I find interesting about the show "MythBusters" is that while they do dangerous things on the show (and some of it is truly dnagerous, especially handling explosive materials and guns) they also use and show extensive safety precautions.  While there is often an element of danger in their investigations, they do those things as safely as possible and treat the safety precautions as a normal, expected element.  They are not about taking unnecessary risks and their masculinity does not suffer in the process.

Dan

Mythbusters is my, and my boys', favorite show, right up there with Dirty Jobs.

I DVR all the new episodes, so I can speed through the commercials.
Title: Re: So What If Boys Can't Be Boys And Men Can't Be Men?
Post by: Dan Fienen on December 15, 2010, 07:44:37 PM
One interesting sidelight is that the female regular on the show, who is a committed vegitarian (although she has eaten a couple insects, does that count) has also become somewhat of a gun enthusiast.  She loves shooting guns, the bigger the better.  She has even used a .50 caliber rifle (cartrages almost as long as her hand) and the mini-gun (the spent cartrages just pour out of it).  Go figure.  (And no, I don't think that she has ever gone hunting, except maybe for car doors, their crash dummy Buster, and a tree she chopped down with the minigun.)

Dan
Title: Re: So What If Boys Can't Be Boys And Men Can't Be Men?
Post by: ptmccain on December 15, 2010, 09:07:39 PM
Sounds like a great lady to me. Except for the vegetarian part.

 :)
Title: Re: So What If Boys Can't Be Boys And Men Can't Be Men?
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on December 15, 2010, 10:35:01 PM
Sounds like a great lady to me. Except for the vegetarian part.

 :)

Read more about her: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kari_Byron#cite_note-byron-5
Title: Re: So What If Boys Can't Be Boys And Men Can't Be Men?
Post by: Dan Fienen on December 15, 2010, 10:42:17 PM
The men on the show interact with Kari with no problems (other than a genralized tendency to pull pranks - like designating her to usually get the dead animal parts - but nobody on the show escapes pranks) and it does not detract from her femininity or their masculinity.

Dan
Title: Re: So What If Boys Can't Be Boys And Men Can't Be Men?
Post by: iowakatie1981 on December 16, 2010, 12:11:34 AM
Can we petition the moderators to rename this thread something along the lines of: Women Who Are For the Moment Content With Not Living In An All-Female Colony On A Tropical Island Should Not Read This Thread.  Women Who Are Looking For An Excuse To Start One Should Read This Thread.

Seriously, boys?

Not that anyone asked, but...I like manly men - ones who hunt and fish and watch sports and drink beer (but never get drunk).  I also like men who can act and sing (I can't - actually got kicked out of somebody's Advent choir at school last year) and enjoy "cultural" events.  I want someone who'll take me to an MLB game and a TSO Concert.

But I will say this:  "motorized penis" made me LOL.  I've been known to use the phrase "penis-mobile" among girlfriends, and when driving near jerks on the highway.  However, "crotch rocket" I just can't handle.  It makes me want to vomit, just hearing or reading it on the page.  And frankly, the fact that it was used by some sort of "senior elite" of my "church body" (whatever-the-heck that even means) makes me a) nearly as embarrassed of our "church body" as Norwegian TV man did, and b) ensures that all respect and appreciation I had for this individual has flown out the window. 

Not that he cares, I'm certain.  But seriously, grow up.  All of you.  Kim made a comment over on the "women's ordination" thread:
Quote
(In fact it simply proves that God had a valid reason for not permitting women to serve as pastors if we cannot control our tongue.)

With that kind of qualification, frankly, it seems like it's more than just the women causing the problem here.

This is a gentle reminder that there are ladies (including lurkers) present, and that regardless of a reader's gender, the type of language employed by an author has an impact on both the repuatation of the author and the One he purports to represent. 

Spurring You On To Love and Good Deeds,

~ Your Sister In Christ
Title: Re: So What If Boys Can't Be Boys And Men Can't Be Men?
Post by: kls on December 16, 2010, 12:39:08 AM
"Crotch Rocket"?? Oh, Katie, now that is even worse than the first, indeed.  Now it's stuck in my head.  I do consider myself appropriately rebuked by you (and cheerfully accepted it) for qualifying my statement to just women  You are indeed correct that it also applies to the guys.  I find this thread quite amusing, but it's easy for me to say that since the more salty comments aren't coming from LCMS pastors.  (Though I do think Bishop Barbie would take exception to Rev. McCain's comments on the color pink and his lack of interest in shopping at a fabric store or arranging flowers.)  I think we're spoiling their fun, though.  Some of them are probably shaking their heads in disgust and thinking to themselves "see what happens when we let the women in?"  Ha ha  Watch out guys, next we'll be showing up at your man caves with our cans of pink spray paint in hand!
Title: Re: So What If Boys Can't Be Boys And Men Can't Be Men?
Post by: Erma S. Wolf on December 16, 2010, 01:14:24 AM

I can't blame any man for not wanting to attend a church pastored by a gay man or a lesbian, not to mention a women. The frilly, fluffy, feminization of theology plays no better for any normal man than forcing him to shop in a fabric store or to take flower arranging classes.

Paul, I do present and bestow upon thee the coveted "Unintended Consequences Award of the Month": by these two sentences you have turned me into an ELCA-advocating, 2009-Churchwide-Assembly-decisions-defending female pastor-type (conservative and traditional though I may be).  In other words, I can disparage my denomination, its decisions, and its (in my humble opinion) heterodox pastors and congregations, but you, sir, are a carpetbagger.  And I could say more but what's the point?   

(And I know, I was reading the prayer and the Christmas music threads, but the weird title got me to looking --  mistake, mistake, terrible horrible mistake.  Yuck and double yuck.  :P) 
Title: Re: So What If Boys Can't Be Boys And Men Can't Be Men?
Post by: Charles_Austin on December 16, 2010, 04:40:22 AM
Carpetbagger.   ;D ;D
Glad you're still with us, Erma.  ;)
Title: Re: So What If Boys Can't Be Boys And Men Can't Be Men?
Post by: Mel Harris on December 16, 2010, 05:24:48 AM

"Crotch Rocket"?? Oh, Katie, now that is even worse than the first, indeed.


As I recall, I first heard the term "crotch rocket" in the 1960s.  It was a common term for motorcycles designed for drag racing.  I did not understand the term to have any sexual connotations.  Enter the term "crotch rocket" into a search engine and you will see that the term is still in use today, although it now seems to be used in slightly different ways by different groups.  An example of the use of this term is at this link:

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=crotch%20rocket

I will not defend the use of the other term for motorcycles that Pastor Austin introduced to this thread, and do not care to know what he meant by using it.

Mel Harris
Title: Re: So What If Boys Can't Be Boys And Men Can't Be Men?
Post by: Maryland Brian on December 16, 2010, 07:07:41 AM

 I recall, I first heard the term "crotch rocket" in the 1960s.  

It generally refers to high speed, barely street legal racing bikes.  They are the ones with molded fairings and such with the rider leaned forward over the tank.  A young man's bike, it's way too uncomfortable a seating position for me.  Statistically more bikers lose their lives on them than any other.  Among the folks I hang with the riders are commonly called organ donors.

Example:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Ducati-Superbike-Biposto-749-2004-DUCATI-749-BIPOSTO-ITALIAN-V-TWIN-299-SHIPPING-/200553296082?pt=US_motorcycles&hash=item2eb1e870d2#ht_3883wt_948 (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Ducati-Superbike-Biposto-749-2004-DUCATI-749-BIPOSTO-ITALIAN-V-TWIN-299-SHIPPING-/200553296082?pt=US_motorcycles&hash=item2eb1e870d2#ht_3883wt_948)

And to keep with the theme of the thread, these are the young men who are not in most of our churches.
Title: Re: So What If Boys Can't Be Boys And Men Can't Be Men?
Post by: ptmccain on December 16, 2010, 08:53:09 AM
A few months ago I was cruising on home from the office in my big safe Ford Five Hundred, the closest thing to a civilian tank on the road today, and two guys whipped past me, doing at least 80, and they both were...on their back wheels...doing wheelies.

The thought crossed through my mind: "I guess Darwin was right."

 :)
Title: Re: So What If Boys Can't Be Boys And Men Can't Be Men?
Post by: Charles_Austin on December 16, 2010, 08:54:25 AM
Those tall tall raised handlebars are also dangerous. My guys call them "ape-hangers".
Title: Re: So What If Boys Can't Be Boys And Men Can't Be Men?
Post by: Dadoo on December 16, 2010, 09:03:59 AM
A few months ago I was cruising on home from the office in my big safe Ford Five Hundred, the closest thing to a civilian tank on the road today, and two guys whipped past me, doing at least 80, and they both were...on their back wheels...doing wheelies.

The thought crossed through my mind: "I guess Darwin was right."

 :)

Hyabusas no doubt! There is a club of them somewhere in Dayton. Maybe surprisingly, maybe not, it is thoroughly racially integrated. Whenever I happen to come across them the group is half African American. They are really nice guys, BTW.
Title: Re: So What If Boys Can't Be Boys And Men Can't Be Men?
Post by: Dadoo on December 16, 2010, 09:05:50 AM
A few months ago I was cruising on home from the office in my big safe Ford Five Hundred, the closest thing to a civilian tank on the road today, and two guys whipped past me, doing at least 80, and they both were...on their back wheels...doing wheelies.

The thought crossed through my mind: "I guess Darwin was right."

 :)

WHOOOAAA!!!!!! Did Paul McCain just use the line "Darwin was right?? "   :o   :o   :o
 :o  ;)  :)  :D  ;D
 ;)

Title: Re: So What If Boys Can't Be Boys And Men Can't Be Men?
Post by: olarmy02 on December 16, 2010, 10:10:58 AM
http://www.virtueonline.org/portal/modules/news/article.php?storyid=13647

Some Anglican thoughts courtesy of Virtue Online (named after the owner David Virtue BTW).
Title: Re: So What If Boys Can't Be Boys And Men Can't Be Men?
Post by: George Erdner on December 16, 2010, 10:50:58 AM
But I will say this:  "motorized penis" made me LOL.  I've been known to use the phrase "penis-mobile" among girlfriends, and when driving near jerks on the highway.  However, "crotch rocket" I just can't handle.  It makes me want to vomit, just hearing or reading it on the page.  And frankly, the fact that it was used by some sort of "senior elite" of my "church body" (whatever-the-heck that even means) makes me a) nearly as embarrassed of our "church body" as Norwegian TV man did, and b) ensures that all respect and appreciation I had for this individual has flown out the window. 

For the record, that term is commonly used to describe a category of motorcycle. It has nothing to do with the location of male genitalia. It only refers to the seating position and extreme level of power in the motor. The term is most commonly used by those of us who prefer a more laid back "cruiser" style motorcycle as a negative term. A typical "cruiser" motorcycle is ridden in an upright or even slightly reclined backwards position. Raw acceleration and speed are not as important as comfort, since cruisers are meant to be ridden over long distances. A crotch rocket is a motorcycle that one rides in an uncomfortable forward leaning position. They are noted for a very high rate of acceleration and are so uncomfortable that only the hardiest of riders can manage to remain aboard one for more than an hour.

As I said, it is a negative term of derision towards the machine itself. It allude to the fact that though such motorcycles are as fast as rockets, they cause pain and discomfort in the part of the body where the rider makes contact with the machine.
Title: Re: So What If Boys Can't Be Boys And Men Can't Be Men?
Post by: Richard Johnson on December 16, 2010, 11:03:51 AM
Bari here. Tenor in church choirs, not in barbershop or male chorus settings.

Just sang both the bass and tenor soli in Bibel's "Ave Maria."
Title: Re: So What If Boys Can't Be Boys And Men Can't Be Men?
Post by: Maryland Brian on December 16, 2010, 11:13:33 AM
http://www.virtueonline.org/portal/modules/news/article.php?storyid=13647

Some Anglican thoughts courtesy of Virtue Online (named after the owner David Virtue BTW).

  Last week the owner of a local dive shop and former captain of the Baltimore Search and Rescue as well as technical expert on numerous Discovery Channel productions asked me to marry he and his girl friend.  OK, so Charles will think this is about me.  Fine Charles, it's all about me so you don't have to comment.  For the rest of us, I spent time with him and his intended a couple of years ago while wreck diving in Canada. I commented they seemed good together and, if they ever needed anyone to marry them, let me know.  At the time they laughed it off and said they'd never marry again.  Both are very unchurched.  Most of their friends are likewise.  Who knows what the Spirit may want to do amid our next steps together, but clearly I'll briefly have access to a different journey with the two of them as well as a group of very serious technical divers who may be open to exploring faith as well as deep wrecks.

  Dan Southerland, who led a very large church in Florida, once said something to the effect that every pastor must find a male oriented hobby in the community so he (hang with me a second on the pronoun) can have access to unchurched men.  I say "he" because the ladies among us might not have the same access as a guy.  For the women pastors among us, I'd like to hear ideas around that one, maybe a cadre of men who can be your ambassadors to these events.
Title: Re: So What If Boys Can't Be Boys And Men Can't Be Men?
Post by: jrubyaz on December 16, 2010, 11:28:09 AM

As the pastor of one of the largest Lutheran men's ministry in the nation, I have read this thread with bemusement. The stats are startling, on an average Sunday in America 74% of those in the pews are women.

Nothing against the ladies, at least they are picking up the spiritual torch, but our neutered Protestant churches offer little for men.

When they DO come, we grab them and ask them to hand out bulletins, be an usher, or be on the property committee. Hardly spiritual growth.

Some may sneer at Pastor Hughes and others who are trying new things to reach men, but at least they are in the arena getting dusty and bloody, not a spectator on the sidelines.

Jeff Ruby   
Title: Re: So What If Boys Can't Be Boys And Men Can't Be Men?
Post by: mariemeyer on December 16, 2010, 11:43:18 AM
What is more, those who will suffer most from this movement are precisely those whom our society, stupidly considering them little more than pests or dolts, has ignored. I mean boys...A boy who does not agree to a girl’s demand for sex will be tagged with homosexuality. She will slander him herself....On three great bonds of love do all cultures depend: the love between man and woman in marriage; the love between a mother and her child; and the camaraderie among men, a bond that used to be strong enough to move mountains. The first two have suffered greatly; the third has almost ceased to exist.

The above are among statements made in this article that are questionable. We have five teenaged grandsons. Either they are exceptions or this writer has taken a legitimate concern, the fact that boys drop out of high school at a higher rate then girls and that women now outnumber men on college campuses, to erect a straw man.  I am greatly concerned about young men, particularly young black men, who are not reaching their full potential.  IMO generalizations in this article do not address the full nature of the problem or the many causes.  

I am also concerned that my husband does not have the friendships among his peers that he had when he first entered the ministry. Circuit social gathering have almost ceased to exist. There was a time we'd get together, the guys in one room and the wives in another. Some of the men might go off and play tennis or chess. Such bonding among fellow pastors seems to have gone the way of black and white TV.

Marie  
Title: Re: So What If Boys Can't Be Boys And Men Can't Be Men?
Post by: jpetty on December 16, 2010, 11:49:55 AM
A few months ago I was cruising on home from the office in my big safe Ford Five Hundred, the closest thing to a civilian tank on the road today, and two guys whipped past me, doing at least 80, and they both were...on their back wheels...doing wheelies.

The thought crossed through my mind: "I guess Darwin was right."

 :)

WHOOOAAA!!!!!! Did Paul McCain just use the line "Darwin was right?? "   :o   :o   :o
 :o  ;)  :)  :D  ;D
 ;)



Good one.
Title: Re: So What If Boys Can't Be Boys And Men Can't Be Men?
Post by: George Erdner on December 16, 2010, 12:08:31 PM
There was a comment way back in this thread that implied that preparing congregational dinners was "women's work". At the church I'm a member of, it is the men to dominate the kitchen for congregational dinners, both indoor and outdoor. The food is generally excellent, even if we don't always get the full amount of points for presentation. Granted, we're more likely to have smoked wild boar than watercress sandwiches with the crusts cut off.

Title: Re: So What If Boys Can't Be Boys And Men Can't Be Men?
Post by: amos on December 16, 2010, 01:27:37 PM
For about 12 years now I have taught a class in communication skills. What I find interesting is that the definition of communication --"is the transfer of meaning."   Words do have different meanings geographically, culturally, and generational.  For example the crotch rocket  term has noting to do with the anatomy but everything to do with the type of machine.   Law enforcement officers use terms that have meaning but would not be understood by most of society and easily taken out of context.  So do nurses, EMTS, doctors, pilots, scuba divers and even pastors.  Examples, crispy critter, going down, flash, etc.. Then add  in trade language, and you have a perfect example of words being said but no real communication taking place.   It is to easy to assume what one persons says means exactly what we think they meant -- from our perspective.  Words like fundamentalist, conservative, liberal, orthodox, etc all have various meanings depending on the cultural, social, educational, and accepted local meanings of the words being used.

It is so easy to be offended when we "assume" we know what a person meant by using "our" definition of the words used.  Some on this forum are very good at using words to slam and deliberately imply a different meaning to what others are saying.  The point I am making is that there is enough room for miss-communication without deliberately attempting to change the context of what someone says just to make our selves look better (in our own eyes) or justify our cherished opinions by implying others are stupid, bigoted, or dumb.

One such comment implied those who might ride motorcycles, or hunt, are somehow just macho apes, while those who read poetry and sing are cultured and somehow better.  I for example am former military, former law enforcement, married for almost 50 years, love to shoot, have studied the martial arts for years, enjoy the theater, sing in a choir, madrigals, play hand bells, play an musical instrument, actually enjoy reading, one of my degrees was a masters in psychology --- before going to seminary and I for one know it all means nothing.  What we do for, and with the help of Christ, is what counts.   Just one opinion from an old man.
Title: Re: So What If Boys Can't Be Boys And Men Can't Be Men?
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on December 16, 2010, 01:50:03 PM
However, "crotch rocket" I just can't handle.  

"Crotch rocket" is a common term for a high-speed sport bike, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crotch_rocket or Google it. It is frequently used by the folks who ride such motorcycles.
Title: Re: So What If Boys Can't Be Boys And Men Can't Be Men?
Post by: iowakatie1981 on December 16, 2010, 02:31:38 PM
Duh.  I know exactly what it means, and by whom the term is primarily used.  Doesn't make it any less disgusting. 

For the record, I'm not opposed to "biker ministry" or whatever, I'm friends with some of the state and national leaders of the Christian Motorcyle Association (I think that's what it's called).  I'm generally a fan of whatever reaches the lost and ministers appropriately to those in need (of salvation, fellowship, education, edification, whatever someone's need might be).  I just think that not all language that a particular subculture uses should necessarily be adopted by those ministering to a given subculture.

Honestly, when I was a student athletic trainer in high school, I had the football team trained to keep it in the locker room.  You'd think ordained ministers of the Gospel could do the same.
Title: Re: So What If Boys Can't Be Boys And Men Can't Be Men?
Post by: George Erdner on December 16, 2010, 03:01:12 PM
Duh.  I know exactly what it means, and by whom the term is primarily used.  Doesn't make it any less disgusting. 


Actually, if after hearing the etymology of the term, and being informed that it doesn't refer to a part of the male anatomy and isn't meant to have the connotations you ascribe to it, you still can't get past it sounding "disgusting", that says more about your sensibilities than it does about the term itself.

Title: Re: So What If Boys Can't Be Boys And Men Can't Be Men?
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on December 16, 2010, 03:11:46 PM
Duh.  I know exactly what it means, and by whom the term is primarily used.  Doesn't make it any less disgusting. 


Actually, if after hearing the etymology of the term, and being informed that it doesn't refer to a part of the male anatomy and isn't meant to have the connotations you ascribe to it, you still can't get past it sounding "disgusting", that says more about your sensibilities than it does about the term itself.

This is one of the rare times I agree with George.
Title: Re: So What If Boys Can't Be Boys And Men Can't Be Men?
Post by: kls on December 16, 2010, 03:19:49 PM
Duh.  I know exactly what it means, and by whom the term is primarily used.  Doesn't make it any less disgusting. 


Actually, if after hearing the etymology of the term, and being informed that it doesn't refer to a part of the male anatomy and isn't meant to have the connotations you ascribe to it, you still can't get past it sounding "disgusting", that says more about your sensibilities than it does about the term itself.



Katie, I think he's saying we're the most sensible ones on this thread (and Erma!).  Bwaaaa haaaa ha!
Title: Re: So What If Boys Can't Be Boys And Men Can't Be Men?
Post by: iowakatie1981 on December 16, 2010, 03:46:18 PM
I've hesitated thus far, Kim, but I can hold back no longer...

Might the very existence of this thread be perhaps the greatest argument in favor of ordaining women?   ;D 

I mean, I personally guarantee that when I have conversations with my colleagues (male or female) in what could reasonably be described as a professional forum, I do not discuss my __________, nor their relationship to my mode of transportation.  Just sayin.' 

Duh.  I know exactly what it means, and by whom the term is primarily used.  Doesn't make it any less disgusting. 


Actually, if after hearing the etymology of the term, and being informed that it doesn't refer to a part of the male anatomy and isn't meant to have the connotations you ascribe to it, you still can't get past it sounding "disgusting", that says more about your sensibilities than it does about the term itself.



Katie, I think he's saying we're the most sensible ones on this thread (and Erma!).  Bwaaaa haaaa ha!
Title: Re: So What If Boys Can't Be Boys And Men Can't Be Men?
Post by: kls on December 16, 2010, 03:54:21 PM
I've hesitated thus far, Kim, but I can hold back no longer...

Might the very existence of this thread be perhaps the greatest argument in favor of ordaining women?   ;D 

Point taken.  I have so enjoyed my off-thread discussions with several of you ladies and do see your situation in ways that I didn't before.  You know I love you (or I hope you do), and I honestly try not to offend when I discuss where I stand on women's ordination, but God has given me the understanding I have.  It is completely unnatural for me to believe the way I do because I am by nature of the opinion that women can do anything a man can do (except where some physical limitations prevent it).  I would love to cooperate in the externals with all of you, but maybe not so much in projects that some of these guys are putting forth where evangelism is concerned.  :P
Title: Re: So What If Boys Can't Be Boys And Men Can't Be Men?
Post by: Charles_Austin on December 16, 2010, 04:05:53 PM
Come on, girls,  ::) real men just talk this way.  ::) We're always making some snide reference to a man's "equipment" or the ways he is (or isn't) using it.  ::) References to all body functions, especially those involving orifices or body fluids, are just how we are.  ::)
Now hold off, guys, we really really really don't want this thread to drift off into mentions of the ways we talk about the ah, er, uh, ummmm..... girls.  ::) ::) ::)
Title: Re: So What If Boys Can't Be Boys And Men Can't Be Men?
Post by: George Erdner on December 16, 2010, 04:07:40 PM
I've hesitated thus far, Kim, but I can hold back no longer...

Might the very existence of this thread be perhaps the greatest argument in favor of ordaining women?   ;D 

I mean, I personally guarantee that when I have conversations with my colleagues (male or female) in what could reasonably be described as a professional forum, I do not discuss my __________, nor their relationship to my mode of transportation.  Just sayin.' 

Duh.  I know exactly what it means, and by whom the term is primarily used.  Doesn't make it any less disgusting. 


Actually, if after hearing the etymology of the term, and being informed that it doesn't refer to a part of the male anatomy and isn't meant to have the connotations you ascribe to it, you still can't get past it sounding "disgusting", that says more about your sensibilities than it does about the term itself.



Katie, I think he's saying we're the most sensible ones on this thread (and Erma!).  Bwaaaa haaaa ha!

If, after all that has been said to indicate that the reference to the portion of the body that sits upon the seat of a motorcycle is in no way, shape, or form a reference to anything sexual, salacious, or naughty, and you still have to use a _________ to substitute for the term, then perhaps that indicates being too sensitive.

There's not much difference between an adolescent boy snickering when a donkey is referred to as an "ass" and a grown women getting the vapors over the use of the word crotch in reference to where a motorcyle rider's body interfaces with the motorcycle. Neither is a mature, appropriate response.

Do you swoon when the four upright portions of a table that support the table top are called "legs"?


Title: Re: So What If Boys Can't Be Boys And Men Can't Be Men?
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on December 16, 2010, 04:10:25 PM
Do you swoon when the four upright portions of a table that support the table top are called "legs"?

And sometimes those legs may be shapely.
Title: Re: So What If Boys Can't Be Boys And Men Can't Be Men?
Post by: Charles_Austin on December 16, 2010, 04:11:57 PM
And in some Victorian parlors, those shapely legs were intentionally hidden by a large table cloth.
Title: Re: So What If Boys Can't Be Boys And Men Can't Be Men?
Post by: Pilgrim on December 16, 2010, 04:13:09 PM
Come on, girls,  ::) real men just talk this way.  ::) We're always making some snide reference to a man's "equipment" or the ways he is (or isn't) using it.  ::) References to all body functions, especially those involving orifices or body fluids, are just how we are.  ::)
Now hold off, guys, we really really really don't want this thread to drift off into mentions of the ways we talk about the ah, er, uh, ummmm..... girls.  ::) ::) ::)

Tim notes: Not ALL men. Just the Opera/NPR types!!! Hunters, fishermen, golfers, divers, rock climbers, ice house devotees, whatever, etc., rarely bother to speak about such matters at all, being far more interested in the activity at hand.  ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: So What If Boys Can't Be Boys And Men Can't Be Men?
Post by: Maryland Brian on December 16, 2010, 04:16:23 PM
 I have always been intrigued how quickly so-called liberal men can resort to such language around women.  And yes charles, you're the one who took the conversation in that direction.

 You know, there are women in my congregation who would give nearly anything to have their husband sit beside them in church and to help raise their sons to be men of faith.  But I guess it's only so much wink, wink, nudge, nudge to some.  Gad.

Title: Re: So What If Boys Can't Be Boys And Men Can't Be Men?
Post by: ptmccain on December 16, 2010, 04:18:43 PM
Boys will have a difficult time being boys, and men, being men, in a church body that has formerly blessed homosexuality as a perfectly acceptable lifestyle choice and "natural orientation" when in fact it is a deep corruption of the very essence of what it means to be a man.
Title: Re: So What If Boys Can't Be Boys And Men Can't Be Men?
Post by: kls on December 16, 2010, 04:19:15 PM
Come on, girls,  ::) real men just talk this way.  ::) We're always making some snide reference to a man's "equipment" or the ways he is (or isn't) using it.  ::) References to all body functions, especially those involving orifices or body fluids, are just how we are.  ::)
Now hold off, guys, we really really really don't want this thread to drift off into mentions of the ways we talk about the ah, er, uh, ummmm..... girls.  ::) ::) ::)

Oh, now that IS true, Charles!  Please stick to talking about your own anatomy and not ours!  Thanks!   ;) :D ;D
Title: Re: So What If Boys Can't Be Boys And Men Can't Be Men?
Post by: kls on December 16, 2010, 04:22:21 PM
If, after all that has been said to indicate that the reference to the portion of the body that sits upon the seat of a motorcycle is in no way, shape, or form a reference to anything sexual, salacious, or naughty, and you still have to use a _________ to substitute for the term, then perhaps that indicates being too sensitive.

There's not much difference between an adolescent boy snickering when a donkey is referred to as an "ass" and a grown women getting the vapors over the use of the word crotch in reference to where a motorcyle rider's body interfaces with the motorcycle. Neither is a mature, appropriate response.

Do you swoon when the four upright portions of a table that support the table top are called "legs"?

Oh, George, there's just something gross about that word to a lady.  There are words I hate that are used to describe the female anatomy, too.  By all means, have your boyish fun.  If we want to use an underline because we actually were taught decency and modesty as ladies, then let us be.   :D
Title: Re: So What If Boys Can't Be Boys And Men Can't Be Men?
Post by: Charles_Austin on December 16, 2010, 04:23:38 PM
Girls will have a difficult time being girls and women in a church body that refuses to let them exercise all of their God-given gifts, prevents them from full participation in church leadership, and attempts to teach that God has decreed that they shall be subordinate to whatever male heads their social unit, whether it be family, classroom, church, or anything else and has formally blessed this kind of discrimination as "natural law" when in fact it has nothing to do with natural law and is a deep corruption of the very essence of what it means to be a human being.
Title: Re: So What If Boys Can't Be Boys And Men Can't Be Men?
Post by: kls on December 16, 2010, 04:25:46 PM
Girls will have a difficult time being girls and women in a church body that refuses to let them exercise all of their God-given gifts, prevents them from full participation in church leadership, and attempts to teach that God has decreed that they shall be subordinate to whatever male heads their social unit, whether it be family, classroom, church, or anything else and has formally blessed this kind of discrimination as "natural law" when in fact it has nothing to do with natural law and is a deep corruption of the very essence of what it means to be a human being.


Nope, I'm having the easiest time of my life being a woman in my church body!  :D
Title: Re: So What If Boys Can't Be Boys And Men Can't Be Men?
Post by: Charles_Austin on December 16, 2010, 04:26:45 PM
But others, deaconess, are not. And other women outside your church body could not.
Title: Re: So What If Boys Can't Be Boys And Men Can't Be Men?
Post by: iowakatie1981 on December 16, 2010, 04:27:13 PM
No, some of us just long for the day when discretion was a part of polite conversation.

I've hesitated thus far, Kim, but I can hold back no longer...

Might the very existence of this thread be perhaps the greatest argument in favor of ordaining women?   ;D 

I mean, I personally guarantee that when I have conversations with my colleagues (male or female) in what could reasonably be described as a professional forum, I do not discuss my __________, nor their relationship to my mode of transportation.  Just sayin.' 

Duh.  I know exactly what it means, and by whom the term is primarily used.  Doesn't make it any less disgusting. 


Actually, if after hearing the etymology of the term, and being informed that it doesn't refer to a part of the male anatomy and isn't meant to have the connotations you ascribe to it, you still can't get past it sounding "disgusting", that says more about your sensibilities than it does about the term itself.



Katie, I think he's saying we're the most sensible ones on this thread (and Erma!).  Bwaaaa haaaa ha!

If, after all that has been said to indicate that the reference to the portion of the body that sits upon the seat of a motorcycle is in no way, shape, or form a reference to anything sexual, salacious, or naughty, and you still have to use a _________ to substitute for the term, then perhaps that indicates being too sensitive.

There's not much difference between an adolescent boy snickering when a donkey is referred to as an "ass" and a grown women getting the vapors over the use of the word crotch in reference to where a motorcyle rider's body interfaces with the motorcycle. Neither is a mature, appropriate response.

Do you swoon when the four upright portions of a table that support the table top are called "legs"?



Title: Re: So What If Boys Can't Be Boys And Men Can't Be Men?
Post by: Maryland Brian on December 16, 2010, 04:31:55 PM
But others, deaconess, are not. And other women outside your church body could not.

And as a man, you are gifted in telling her how she should feel about it, right?
Title: Re: So What If Boys Can't Be Boys And Men Can't Be Men?
Post by: jrubyaz on December 16, 2010, 04:33:09 PM
And men will have a difficult time in a church body that has neutered all God language, doesn't make men feel welcome, has feminized the church, and leaves pastors guessing as to which grenade will be lobbed if they use the wrong word for God. .... ::)

Girls will have a difficult time being girls and women in a church body that refuses to let them exercise all of their God-given gifts, prevents them from full participation in church leadership, and attempts to teach that God has decreed that they shall be subordinate to whatever male heads their social unit, whether it be family, classroom, church, or anything else and has formally blessed this kind of discrimination as "natural law" when in fact it has nothing to do with natural law and is a deep corruption of the very essence of what it means to be a human being.

Title: Re: So What If Boys Can't Be Boys And Men Can't Be Men?
Post by: Charles_Austin on December 16, 2010, 04:37:32 PM
Pastor Hughes writes (re my comment to Deaconess Schave):
And as a man, you are gifted in telling her how she should feel about it, right?

I respond:
Didn't tell her how she should "feel" about it. Don't care how she feels about it.
But my original comment was directed toward the predictable, unctuous words by ptmccain. He has his view of the church. I am entitled to mine. He is entitled to say what disgusts him. And so am I.
Title: Re: So What If Boys Can't Be Boys And Men Can't Be Men?
Post by: Maryland Brian on December 16, 2010, 04:39:52 PM
Pastor Hughes writes (re my comment to Deaconess Schave):
And as a man, you are gifted in telling her how she should feel about it, right?

I respond:
Didn't tell her how she should "feel" about it. Don't care how she feels about it.
But my original comment was directed toward the predictable, unctuous words by ptmccain. He has his view of the church. I am entitled to mine. He is entitled to say what disgusts him. And so am I.

But you didn't send it to him.  You sent it to one of the few women participating on this thread.  This after deciding discussing male anatomy would help the conversation.  Lord save us from tolerant, sexist men.
Title: Re: So What If Boys Can't Be Boys And Men Can't Be Men?
Post by: DCharlton on December 16, 2010, 04:47:16 PM
My son and I have our own version of the Inklings.  Our favorite pastime is to go on walks while we discuss books and other forms of narrative, including movies and telivision shows.  Occasionally, our talks include video games.  We're more likely to talk about Stephen King than Jane Austen, of course.  I don't think this makes us girly-men,  :o but perhaps it is a little nerdy.   ;D 
Title: Re: So What If Boys Can't Be Boys And Men Can't Be Men?
Post by: ptmccain on December 16, 2010, 04:59:00 PM
DCharlton...oh, not at all. This is the kind of vigorous, virile, manly life of the mind that thinking men crave and why, when they are subjected to not much more in church than emotional fluff, emotionalism, and maudlin displays of feelings without any true intellectual substance, they will simply move away, and are moving away, from the church. So much of the substance in the liberal protestant mainline has reduced the great and awesome mysteries of the faith, the full-blooded reality of the God-man combating all the minions of Satan, to "Precious Moments" theology filled with sweet-nothings.

No wonder men are taking a hike from Church.

I commend the hikes you are taking with your son!

Title: Re: So What If Boys Can't Be Boys And Men Can't Be Men?
Post by: George Erdner on December 16, 2010, 05:08:35 PM
If, after all that has been said to indicate that the reference to the portion of the body that sits upon the seat of a motorcycle is in no way, shape, or form a reference to anything sexual, salacious, or naughty, and you still have to use a _________ to substitute for the term, then perhaps that indicates being too sensitive.

There's not much difference between an adolescent boy snickering when a donkey is referred to as an "ass" and a grown women getting the vapors over the use of the word crotch in reference to where a motorcyle rider's body interfaces with the motorcycle. Neither is a mature, appropriate response.

Do you swoon when the four upright portions of a table that support the table top are called "legs"?

Oh, George, there's just something gross about that word to a lady.  There are words I hate that are used to describe the female anatomy, too.  By all means, have your boyish fun.  If we want to use an underline because we actually were taught decency and modesty as ladies, then let us be.   :D

Kim, there are degrees and levels of "decency and modesty". I am only suggesting that in the year of our Lord 2010, the quaint and excessive standards of "decency and modesty" common when HRH Victoria was Queen of England are no longer appropriate. The days of going into a swoon because of a word like "crotch" when referring to a, well, crotch, are long behind us. I'm 59 years old. I was raised by parents who were above average in terms of personal ""decency and modesty", and I know that neither of them, nor either of my grandmothers, both of whom were born around the turn of the last century would get the vapors at hearing the word "crotch" used. I can recall when I was a grade school kid back in the 1950's when I was being taken to the local store to buy some back to-school trousers and my grandmother told the salesman to be sure the pants "fit in the crotch".

But, I'll off you and anyone else who is so sensitive that she cannot bear the word "crotch" when used in a non-sexual setting this simple proposal. Tell us what euphemism you would prefer to be used in place of that objectionable word. Suggested alternatives (http://thesaurus.com/browse/crotch) include loins, groin, lap, pelvic girdle, and pubic area.   

And for the record, I am not attempting to decree how anyone should feel about any particular word. If some people are excessively sensitive about certain words even though such excessive sensitivities are, well, excessive, I am not saying that they are wrong to be overly and excessively sensitive. If anyone wishes to be overly and excessively sensitive about certain words, then that is what they are. It would be no more appropriate for me to attempt to force someone to get over their extremely excessive over-sensitivity to certain words than it would be for the overly sensitive to attempt to compel me to accept and agree with their perceptions. Excessive over-reaction to particular words is neither more nor less a sign of superior character or qualification than a relaxed, tolerant attitude is.
Title: Re: So What If Boys Can't Be Boys And Men Can't Be Men?
Post by: kls on December 16, 2010, 05:13:57 PM
Kim, there are degrees and levels of "decency and modesty". I am only suggesting that in the year of our Lord 2010, the quaint and excessive standards of "decency and modesty" common when HRH Victoria was Queen of England are no longer appropriate. The days of going into a swoon because of a word like "crotch" when referring to a, well, crotch, are long behind us. I'm 59 years old. I was raised by parents who were above average in terms of personal ""decency and modesty", and I know that neither of them, nor either of my grandmothers, both of whom were born around the turn of the last century would get the vapors at hearing the word "crotch" used. I can recall when I was a grade school kid back in the 1950's when I was being taken to the local store to buy some back to-school trousers and my grandmother told the salesman to be sure the pants "fit in the crotch".

But, I'll off you and anyone else who is so sensitive that she cannot bear the word "crotch" when used in a non-sexual setting this simple proposal. Tell us what euphemism you would prefer to be used in place of that objectionable word. Suggested alternatives (http://thesaurus.com/browse/crotch) include loins, groin, lap, pelvic girdle, and pubic area.   

And for the record, I am not attempting to decree how anyone should feel about any particular word. If some people are excessively sensitive about certain words even though such excessive sensitivities are, well, excessive, I am not saying that they are wrong to be overly and excessively sensitive. If anyone wishes to be overly and excessively sensitive about certain words, then that is what they are. It would be no more appropriate for me to attempt to force someone to get over their extremely excessive over-sensitivity to certain words than it would be for the overly sensitive to attempt to compel me to accept and agree with their perceptions. Excessive over-reaction to particular words is neither more nor less a sign of superior character or qualification than a relaxed, tolerant attitude is.

Oh, George, lighten up.  How about "privates?"   ;D  I've spent a good deal of time in crisis pregnancy counseling which also extends to sexual abstinence education.  I know the terms, I use the terms, and I hear some crazy new terms from kids these days and try not to roll my eyes at them.  Your point has been made.
Title: Re: So What If Boys Can't Be Boys And Men Can't Be Men?
Post by: DCharlton on December 16, 2010, 05:15:50 PM
DCharlton...oh, not at all. This is the kind of vigorous, virile, manly life of the mind that thinking men crave and why, when they are subjected to not much more in church than emotional fluff, emotionalism, and maudlin displays of feelings without any true intellectual substance, they will simply move away, and are moving away, from the church. So much of the substance in the liberal protestant mainline has reduced the great and awesome mysteries of the faith, the full-blooded reality of the God-man combating all the minions of Satan, to "Precious Moments" theology filled with sweet-nothings.

No wonder men are taking a hike from Church.

I commend the hikes you are taking with your son!



Thanks Paul.  I have been inspired by C.S. Lewis' vision of moral education through the study of classic literature in The Abolition of Man.  I wonder whether the hostility to heroism and virtue in modern literature is one of the reasons that boys show little interest in it.   
Title: Re: So What If Boys Can't Be Boys And Men Can't Be Men?
Post by: Maryland Brian on December 17, 2010, 08:40:51 AM


Thanks Paul.  I have been inspired by C.S. Lewis' vision of moral education through the study of classic literature in The Abolition of Man.  I wonder whether the hostility to heroism and virtue in modern literature is one of the reasons that boys show little interest in it.   

  Intriguing insight of the day.  If Christianity is not framed as an adventure, from safety into peril for the sake of honor or the call, then our core invitation is too wimpy to inspire men to participation. 
Title: Re: So What If Boys Can't Be Boys And Men Can't Be Men?
Post by: ptmccain on December 17, 2010, 08:49:05 AM
Bingo.

Title: Re: So What If Boys Can't Be Boys And Men Can't Be Men?
Post by: Dadoo on December 17, 2010, 08:55:49 AM


Thanks Paul.  I have been inspired by C.S. Lewis' vision of moral education through the study of classic literature in The Abolition of Man.  I wonder whether the hostility to heroism and virtue in modern literature is one of the reasons that boys show little interest in it.   

  Intriguing insight of the day.  If Christianity is not framed as an adventure, from safety into peril for the sake of honor or the call, then our core invitation is too wimpy to inspire men to participation. 

Well put. Men need to be on a mission, be involved in a conquest of sorts, an ordeal, a struggle. It would not be life without it somehow.
Title: Re: So What If Boys Can't Be Boys And Men Can't Be Men?
Post by: Charles_Austin on December 17, 2010, 09:01:01 AM
Pastor Hughes writes:
If Christianity is not framed as an adventure, from safety into peril for the sake of honor or the call, then our core invitation is too wimpy to inspire men to participation.  

I comment:
O.k., let's strap on some survival gear and saddle up....
How about the "adventure" of helping Bible-believing, faithful women seeking a chance to follow God's call in a church where men refuse to recognize that call?
*Or the "adventure" of being gay or lesbian and attempting to be a faithful Christian in a church or world which makes that extremely difficult?
*Or the "adventure" of being a pacifist or conscientious objector trying to follow the Prince of Peace as you feel called to do so in a country which glamorizes military service and believes that the only sacrifice one can make for one's country is to put on a uniform and kill or die?
*Or the "adventure" of standing up for the rights of religious minorities, including Muslims, when a majority of a community wants to ban certain forms of religious expression?
*Or the "adventure" of seeking better aid and conditions for poor children when tax breaks are for the rich and there is always money for more financial bailouts but not for health care for babies?
*Or the "adventure" of seeking equal access to all forms of medical care for women when politicians and fellow Christians would cut off those forms of care and even prevent doctors from talking about it?
*Or the "adventure" of having your kid's softball or soccer coach fuss and fume because you won't bring them to practice on Sunday morning until after church or Sunday School?
*Or the "adventure" of carrying or reading a Bible at work, backing away from boozy office parties laden with sexuality or inviting a co-worker to church or Bible study?
*Or the "adventure" of downsizing luxuries so that one can tithe and take the attendant hits from those who wonder why you aren't driving a car "suitable" for your status?
*And there are more....
Of course, if those adventures happen to be inspired by a church with a woman pastor, or a church where same-sex couples serve on the council; then I guess it can't be a real adventure, can it? That has to come from a church where men dominate, heterosexuality is the orientation du jour, (or du semaine, or du année), and everyone has some kind of deadly weapon in their closet.
Title: Re: So What If Boys Can't Be Boys And Men Can't Be Men?
Post by: ptmccain on December 17, 2010, 09:29:12 AM


Thanks Paul.  I have been inspired by C.S. Lewis' vision of moral education through the study of classic literature in The Abolition of Man.  I wonder whether the hostility to heroism and virtue in modern literature is one of the reasons that boys show little interest in it.   

  Intriguing insight of the day.  If Christianity is not framed as an adventure, from safety into peril for the sake of honor or the call, then our core invitation is too wimpy to inspire men to participation. 

Well put. Men need to be on a mission, be involved in a conquest of sorts, an ordeal, a struggle. It would not be life without it somehow.


Well said!!
Title: Re: So What If Boys Can't Be Boys And Men Can't Be Men?
Post by: Donald_Kirchner on December 17, 2010, 09:32:44 AM
And men will have a difficult time in a church body that has neutered all God language, doesn't make men feel welcome, has feminized the church, and leaves pastors guessing as to which grenade will be lobbed if they use the wrong word for God. .... ::)

I don't know if we've veered that far, but I do recall receiving in the mail a CPH flyer on new Bible studies. The front cover had a picture of these beautiful young folks, gathered for study. My recollection is that there were 6 to 8 of them. Both genders and various races. I looked at it, showed it to my wife, and commented, "Everyone represented, except for the white guy! Where's the white guy?"

She patted my arm and replied, "Settle, dear. He's assumed to be there."
Title: Re: So What If Boys Can't Be Boys And Men Can't Be Men?
Post by: Charles_Austin on December 17, 2010, 09:39:16 AM
Pastor Kirch writes:
She patted my arm and replied, "Settle, dear. He's assumed to be there."

I muse:
But that's wrong, according to some folks here. Guys aren't in the church cause there aren't enough deer-hunting retreats.
Title: Re: So What If Boys Can't Be Boys And Men Can't Be Men?
Post by: Dadoo on December 17, 2010, 09:47:25 AM
Pastor Kirch writes:
She patted my arm and replied, "Settle, dear. He's assumed to be there."

I muse:
But that's wrong, according to some folks here. Guys aren't in the church cause there aren't enough deer-hunting retreats.

That would actually be a good idea in many midwestern places. Hunting during the day, retreat activities in the evening at a lodge. It would be well attended and well appreciated assuming it was done right.
Title: Re: So What If Boys Can't Be Boys And Men Can't Be Men?
Post by: ptmccain on December 17, 2010, 09:52:07 AM
The most enjoyable men's retreat I attended was in the fantastic LCMS church camp down in Texas, Camp Lone Star, where we spent lots of time in lectures and discussions about the Book of Concord, with breaks for skeet shooting.

Great BBQ, beer, BOC and skeet shooting, not necessarily in that order, in fact, precisely not in that order. Beer drinking was only at night around a huge campfire looking up at the stars at night which are big and bright, deep in the heart of Texas.

I suppose we could have had tea parties and sat around and discussed our feelings and picked out new wallpaper for our powder rooms, but this was much more fun.

 :)
Title: Re: So What If Boys Can't Be Boys And Men Can't Be Men?
Post by: Donald_Kirchner on December 17, 2010, 09:57:59 AM
Pastor Kirch writes:
She patted my arm and replied, "Settle, dear. He's assumed to be there."

I muse:
But that's wrong, according to some folks here. Guys aren't in the church cause there aren't enough deer-hunting retreats.

So, I guess CPH was simply manifesting the reality of the situation?
Title: Re: So What If Boys Can't Be Boys And Men Can't Be Men?
Post by: olarmy02 on December 17, 2010, 10:01:34 AM
The most enjoyable men's retreat I attended was in the fantastic LCMS church camp down in Texas, Camp Lone Star, where we spent lots of time in lectures and discussions about the Book of Concord, with breaks for skeet shooting.

Great BBQ, beer, BOC and skeet shooting, not necessarily in that order, in fact, precisely not in that order. Beer drinking was only at night around a huge campfire looking up at the stars at night which are big and bright, deep in the heart of Texas.

I suppose we could have had tea parties and sat around and discussed our feelings and picked out new wallpaper for our powder rooms, but this was much more fun.

 :)

In La Grange, TX!?  Interesting  ;D
Title: Re: So What If Boys Can't Be Boys And Men Can't Be Men?
Post by: DCharlton on December 17, 2010, 10:19:31 AM
Perhaps some of the over reaction to our discussion found above comes from the confusion between Machismo and Virtue.  Virtue, as I understand it, has the same root as the word viril.  Boys instinctively know that they need to acquire the virtues need for the journey of life.  In the classical tradition, they were Prudence(Wisdom), Justice, Courage, and Temperance.  To this the Church added, Faith, Hope and Love.

In place of the classic list, modern-movie-manliness gives us the Rash, Arbitrary, Risk Taking, and Lustfilled leading man.  These are false virtues that many of our boys are left to emulate.  Much of classic literature deals with the sometimes painful struggle of learning the difference.  

Title: Re: So What If Boys Can't Be Boys And Men Can't Be Men?
Post by: ptmccain on December 17, 2010, 10:29:00 AM
The feminization and homosexualization of our culture, both in the church, and in society, has resulted in the fact that often, very often, men are depicted as mouth-breaking bafoons who have to be tamed and tempered by plenty of estrogen-centric activities, fathers held up to ridicule and jokes, and the "virtuous homosexual" held up as the role model.

We reap what we sow.

No wonder many Muslims look upon our society and culture with contempt.
Title: Re: So What If Boys Can't Be Boys And Men Can't Be Men?
Post by: Dadoo on December 17, 2010, 10:30:34 AM
Pastor Hughes writes:
If Christianity is not framed as an adventure, from safety into peril for the sake of honor or the call, then our core invitation is too wimpy to inspire men to participation.  

I comment:
O.k., let's strap on some survival gear and saddle up....
How about the "adventure" of helping Bible-believing, faithful women seeking a chance to follow God's call in a church where men refuse to recognize that call?
*Or the "adventure" of being gay or lesbian and attempting to be a faithful Christian in a church or world which makes that extremely difficult?
*Or the "adventure" of being a pacifist or conscientious objector trying to follow the Prince of Peace as you feel called to do so in a country which glamorizes military service and believes that the only sacrifice one can make for one's country is to put on a uniform and kill or die?
*Or the "adventure" of standing up for the rights of religious minorities, including Muslims, when a majority of a community wants to ban certain forms of religious expression?
*Or the "adventure" of seeking better aid and conditions for poor children when tax breaks are for the rich and there is always money for more financial bailouts but not for health care for babies?
*Or the "adventure" of seeking equal access to all forms of medical care for women when politicians and fellow Christians would cut off those forms of care and even prevent doctors from talking about it?
*Or the "adventure" of having your kid's softball or soccer coach fuss and fume because you won't bring them to practice on Sunday morning until after church or Sunday School?
*Or the "adventure" of carrying or reading a Bible at work, backing away from boozy office parties laden with sexuality or inviting a co-worker to church or Bible study?
*Or the "adventure" of downsizing luxuries so that one can tithe and take the attendant hits from those who wonder why you aren't driving a car "suitable" for your status?
*And there are more....
Of course, if those adventures happen to be inspired by a church with a woman pastor, or a church where same-sex couples serve on the council; then I guess it can't be a real adventure, can it? That has to come from a church where men dominate, heterosexuality is the orientation du jour, (or du semaine, or du année), and everyone has some kind of deadly weapon in their closet.

All these have some sort of merit, Charles. The list is familiar to all of us who are in the ELCA. They are the current "action points" or whatever one might call them, that the ELCA and the denominations we are in communion with, value. They also sound like they were written by someone who has spent a good amount of time in academia. WHile there is no dark sinister plan behind them nor even a "light shade at noon type  dark" plan in them, these are adventures in churches that have the very problems engaging men that are being talked about here. So, worthy goal that they might be, they don't seem to connect with the guys. Maybe then it is a good idea to do things that will engage the guys and see if they will take up some of the causes championed in your post.
Title: Re: So What If Boys Can't Be Boys And Men Can't Be Men?
Post by: Kurt Weinelt on December 17, 2010, 10:42:40 AM
Someone posts:
*Or the "adventure" of seeking equal access to all forms of medical care for women when politicians and fellow Christians would cut off those forms of care and even prevent doctors from talking about it?

I retort:
Wow. The "adventure" of promoting abortion. That'll draw "real men" to the church. :P
Title: Re: So What If Boys Can't Be Boys And Men Can't Be Men?
Post by: ptmccain on December 17, 2010, 10:50:07 AM
Real men don't kill babies, they love them, and protect them.
Title: Re: So What If Boys Can't Be Boys And Men Can't Be Men?
Post by: Dadoo on December 17, 2010, 10:52:22 AM
Perhaps some of the over reaction to our discussion found above comes from the confusion between Machismo and Virtue.  Virtue, as I understand it, has the same root as the word viril.  Boys instinctively know that they need to acquire the virtues need for the journey of life.  In the classical tradition, they were Prudence(Wisdom), Justice, Courage, and Temperance.  To this the Church added, Faith, Hope and Love.

In place of the classic list, modern-movie-manliness gives us the Rash, Arbitrary, Risk Taking, and Lustfilled leading man.  These are false virtues that many of our boys are left to emulate.  Much of classic literature deals with the sometimes painful struggle of learning the difference.  



I would say that simple machismo is part of being a young man at least at some level. Virtue is learned by interaction between machismo of the young and the wisdom of the elders who have transcended that stage of life. The long forgotten, or maybe transcended, article that began the thread argues that the venues for the interaction are vanishing which leaves young men in the questionable state of having to make it up on their own. Yes, adolescent machismo then suddenly becomes the mark of men.

The subsequent discussion that Brian H and I have egged on is more about creating venues where the church an be the catalyst for the transition. The most experienced rider leads the convoy of motorcycles. right behind him are the least experienced and then the rest of the group in ascending order of experience. There is a reason for that. The old dog ahead will not lead you into dangerous places or set a dangerous pace. The old dogs behind know how to stop and avoid hitting you after you go down pulling a dumb stunt. They also know to pull you aside at the next rest stop and read you the riot act about pulling wheelies in a crowd but the same old dog knows how to pull a wheelie and the young guy knows it.
The experienced quail hunters, who lead a newbies, often bring home less game. They keep both the prey and the  young hunters (and their guns) in sight and sometimes spend some time hitting the dirt as inexperienced guns swing round.
In both cases wisdom is slowly learned and virtue can arise as well. But the venue had to be there for the interaction which is why some of us worry about creating this type of interaction.
Title: Re: So What If Boys Can't Be Boys And Men Can't Be Men?
Post by: olarmy02 on December 17, 2010, 10:56:22 AM
Someone posts:
*Or the "adventure" of seeking equal access to all forms of medical care for women when politicians and fellow Christians would cut off those forms of care and even prevent doctors from talking about it?

I retort:
Wow. The "adventure" of promoting abortion. That'll draw "real men" to the church. :P

And yet
 
*Or the "adventure" of being a pacifist or conscientious objector trying to follow the Prince of Peace as you feel called to do so in a country which glamorizes military service and believes that the only sacrifice one can make for one's country is to put on a uniform and kill or die?
 ??? :'(
Title: Re: So What If Boys Can't Be Boys And Men Can't Be Men?
Post by: kls on December 17, 2010, 11:01:22 AM
Real men don't kill babies, they love them, and protect them.

I'm so getting that bumper sticker!
Title: Re: So What If Boys Can't Be Boys And Men Can't Be Men?
Post by: iowakatie1981 on December 17, 2010, 11:02:53 AM
Real men don't kill babies, they love them, and protect them.

Real Lutherans don't kill babies, they baptize them!

(And any man who felt I needed access to all forms of medical care abortion would soon find himself needing a dentist.)
Title: Re: So What If Boys Can't Be Boys And Men Can't Be Men?
Post by: kls on December 17, 2010, 11:05:31 AM
Real men don't kill babies, they love them, and protect them.

Real Lutherans don't kill babies, they baptize them!

(And any man who felt I needed access to all forms of medical care abortion would soon find himself needing a dentist.)

OK, this one will be on the other side of my bumper!

Katie, might I add that you've got a lot of guts to be willing to make this point so publicly.
Title: Re: So What If Boys Can't Be Boys And Men Can't Be Men?
Post by: olarmy02 on December 17, 2010, 11:08:32 AM
Real men don't kill babies, they love them, and protect them.

Real Lutherans don't kill babies, they baptize them!

(And any man who felt I needed access to all forms of medical care abortion would soon find himself needing a dentist.)

It would be great if this forum had an option to "like" a post as on facebook!
Title: Re: So What If Boys Can't Be Boys And Men Can't Be Men?
Post by: MaddogLutheran on December 17, 2010, 11:12:21 AM
Real men don't kill babies, they love them, and protect them.

Real Lutherans don't kill babies, they baptize them!

(And any man who felt I needed access to all forms of medical care abortion would soon find himself needing a dentist.)

It would be great if this forum had an option to "like" a post as on facebook!
Yes, I've been meaning to offer that suggestion in the "Changes Coming" thread; of course it has to be possible with the software.  There have been numerous times over the years where I wish I could have offered a "me too", but refrained to avoid cluttering a thread.
Title: Re: So What If Boys Can't Be Boys And Men Can't Be Men?
Post by: iowakatie1981 on December 17, 2010, 11:12:43 AM
Facebook is where I first found it, so I can't take all the credit.  I've since seen other incarnations substituting Catholics, and Christians, for Lutherans.

(And Kim - well, you've got to stand for something, right?)
Title: Re: So What If Boys Can't Be Boys And Men Can't Be Men?
Post by: Kurt Weinelt on December 17, 2010, 11:18:05 AM
I would say that simple machismo is part of being a young man at least at some level. Virtue is learned by interaction between machismo of the young and the wisdom of the elders who have transcended that stage of life. The long forgotten, or maybe transcended, article that began the thread argues that the venues for the interaction are vanishing which leaves young men in the questionable state of having to make it up on their own. Yes, adolescent machismo then suddenly becomes the mark of men.
The subsequent discussion that Brian H and I have egged on is more about creating venues where the church an be the catalyst for the transition. The most experienced rider leads the convoy of motorcycles. right behind him are the least experienced and then the rest of the group in ascending order of experience. There is a reason for that. The old dog ahead will not lead you into dangerous places or set a dangerous pace. The old dogs behind know how to stop and avoid hitting you after you go down pulling a dumb stunt. They also know to pull you aside at the next rest stop and read you the riot act about pulling wheelies in a crowd but the same old dog knows how to pull a wheelie and the young guy knows it.
The experienced quail hunters, who lead a newbies, often bring home less game. They keep both the prey and the  young hunters (and their guns) in sight and sometimes spend some time hitting the dirt as inexperienced guns swing round.
In both cases wisdom is slowly learned and virtue can arise as well. But the venue had to be there for the interaction which is why some of us worry about creating this type of interaction.

This post really has me thinking. As a young boy, I remember fishing on the Kure Beach Pier with my Lutheran pastor father (father-son bonding ritual) and asking him what I thought were life's tough questions. It was easier to talk to each other in that setting than in others where we were distracted by other things. The point is, discussions work for men in a setting like that.
Kurt
Title: Re: So What If Boys Can't Be Boys And Men Can't Be Men?
Post by: DCharlton on December 17, 2010, 11:21:11 AM
Perhaps some of the over reaction to our discussion found above comes from the confusion between Machismo and Virtue.  Virtue, as I understand it, has the same root as the word viril.  Boys instinctively know that they need to acquire the virtues need for the journey of life.  In the classical tradition, they were Prudence(Wisdom), Justice, Courage, and Temperance.  To this the Church added, Faith, Hope and Love.

In place of the classic list, modern-movie-manliness gives us the Rash, Arbitrary, Risk Taking, and Lustfilled leading man.  These are false virtues that many of our boys are left to emulate.  Much of classic literature deals with the sometimes painful struggle of learning the difference.  



I would say that simple machismo is part of being a young man at least at some level. Virtue is learned by interaction between machismo of the young and the wisdom of the elders who have transcended that stage of life. The long forgotten, or maybe transcended, article that began the thread argues that the venues for the interaction are vanishing which leaves young men in the questionable state of having to make it up on their own. Yes, adolescent machismo then suddenly becomes the mark of men.

The subsequent discussion that Brian H and I have egged on is more about creating venues where the church an be the catalyst for the transition. The most experienced rider leads the convoy of motorcycles. right behind him are the least experienced and then the rest of the group in ascending order of experience. There is a reason for that. The old dog ahead will not lead you into dangerous places or set a dangerous pace. The old dogs behind know how to stop and avoid hitting you after you go down pulling a dumb stunt. They also know to pull you aside at the next rest stop and read you the riot act about pulling wheelies in a crowd but the same old dog knows how to pull a wheelie and the young guy knows it.
The experienced quail hunters, who lead a newbies, often bring home less game. They keep both the prey and the  young hunters (and their guns) in sight and sometimes spend some time hitting the dirt as inexperienced guns swing round.
In both cases wisdom is slowly learned and virtue can arise as well. But the venue had to be there for the interaction which is why some of us worry about creating this type of interaction.

You and I are on the same page.  I assumed that this was what you and Brian had in mind.  In particlar, your words here summarize what I was getting at:


"I would say that simple machismo is part of being a young man at least at some level. Virtue is learned by interaction between machismo of the young and the wisdom of the elders who have transcended that stage of life. The long forgotten, or maybe transcended, article that began the thread argues that the venues for the interaction are vanishing which leaves young men in the questionable state of having to make it up on their own. Yes, adolescent machismo then suddenly becomes the mark of men."

That's why I paired four adolescent characteristics with the Cardinal Virtues.  Boys need us to help them learn the difference between being

Rash or Prudent
Arbitrary or Just
Foolhardy or Courageous
Lustful or Temperant
Title: Re: So What If Boys Can't Be Boys And Men Can't Be Men?
Post by: Maryland Brian on December 17, 2010, 12:01:22 PM


Of course, if those adventures happen to be inspired by a church with a woman pastor, or a church where same-sex couples serve on the council; then I guess it can't be a real adventure, can it? That has to come from a church where men dominate, heterosexuality is the orientation du jour, (or du semaine, or du année), and everyone has some kind of deadly weapon in their closet.

... If things were different, they wouldn't be the way they are.  Few of our churches have young men.  I suspect they've run into enough condescension like above to understand they aren't wanted.  So they stay away. My sense is you actually celebrate it, though not likely to admit it.
Title: Re: So What If Boys Can't Be Boys And Men Can't Be Men?
Post by: SCPO on December 17, 2010, 12:07:57 PM
The feminization and homosexualization of our culture, both in the church, and in society, has resulted in the fact that often, very often, men are depicted as mouth-breaking bafoons who have to be tamed and tempered by plenty of estrogen-centric activities...

       How on earth could anyone think such a thing
Title: Re: So What If Boys Can't Be Boys And Men Can't Be Men?
Post by: Charles_Austin on December 17, 2010, 12:09:13 PM
And I think he means "mouth-breathing buffoons," but he was so eager to pounce that he didn't read what he had written.
Title: Re: So What If Boys Can't Be Boys And Men Can't Be Men?
Post by: ptmccain on December 17, 2010, 12:10:46 PM
The feminization and homosexualization of our culture, both in the church, and in society, has resulted in the fact that often, very often, men are depicted as mouth-breaking bafoons who have to be tamed and tempered by plenty of estrogen-centric activities...

       How on earth could anyone think such a thing

Welcome to the 21st century, Senior Chief.
 :)
Title: Re: So What If Boys Can't Be Boys And Men Can't Be Men?
Post by: ptmccain on December 17, 2010, 12:14:21 PM
Let's add to the list of decidedly unmanly behaviors:

Obsessively and compulsively looking for every chance to correct grammar, syntax and spelling on this forum, in crabby old schoolmarmish fashion.

 ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: So What If Boys Can't Be Boys And Men Can't Be Men?
Post by: Maryland Brian on December 17, 2010, 12:16:21 PM
The feminization and homosexualization of our culture, both in the church, and in society, has resulted in the fact that often, very often, men are depicted as mouth-breaking bafoons who have to be tamed and tempered by plenty of estrogen-centric activities...

       How on earth could anyone think such a thing


Hang around with enough young men and you'll understand why he'd say such a thing.  Or, hang around emotionally healthy young women and get their take on young men these days.
Title: Re: So What If Boys Can't Be Boys And Men Can't Be Men?
Post by: RogerMartim on December 17, 2010, 01:49:01 PM
I am not sure I get the point of this posting.

There are straight men who have masculine traits.
There are straight men who have feminine traits.
There are straight men who have both masculine and feminine traits.
There are gay men who have masculine traits.
There are gay men who have feminine traits.
There are gay men who have both masculine and feminine traits.

All of the above applies to women as well.

It would be a pretty boring world if a person had to mold oneself into a person that he or she isn't meant to be. Whatever trait one has doesn't tell you diddly doo what that person is but that...

We are all God's children.

Title: Re: So What If Boys Can't Be Boys And Men Can't Be Men?
Post by: SCPO on December 17, 2010, 02:52:15 PM

Hang around with enough young men and you'll understand why he'd say such a thing.  Or, hang around emotionally healthy young women and get their take on young men these days.


     Unfortunately I don't have as many opportunities to hang around emotionally heathly young men and women as I use to.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lsnlO-hpc_8

Title: Re: So What If Boys Can't Be Boys And Men Can't Be Men?
Post by: Richard Johnson on December 17, 2010, 04:09:00 PM
Real men don't kill babies, they love them, and protect them.

I'm so getting that bumper sticker!

totally off topic, but I saw this one yesterday:  "I am, therefore I sing."
Title: Re: So What If Boys Can't Be Boys And Men Can't Be Men?
Post by: Maryland Brian on December 17, 2010, 04:29:29 PM

And yet
 
*Or the "adventure" of being a pacifist or conscientious objector trying to follow the Prince of Peace as you feel called to do so in a country which glamorizes military service and believes that the only sacrifice one can make for one's country is to put on a uniform and kill or die?
 ??? :'(


One of my best friends is a Navy chaplain.  When he heads into a combat zone he is always accompanied by a marine body guard.  So you tell me, should my friend remove the uniform and refuse to care for men and women in harms way, even if he personally doesn't carry a weapon?  Should he refuse the body guard, reasoning that another man tasked with protecting him is a denial of the Prince of Peace?

If he seeks to pray and care for men and women wounded in combat, does that mean he glamorizes military service?   I would say he is more an inspiration to young men than either of us who safely sit here and respond to each other via keyboard.  And as a chaplain, he will have access to a lot more young men than you or I ever will.



Title: Re: So What If Boys Can't Be Boys And Men Can't Be Men?
Post by: Charles_Austin on December 17, 2010, 04:38:05 PM
Different kind of adventure, Pastor Hughes, different kind of adventure. I have nothing but admiration for military chaplains and the ministry they do. The glamorization of military service is probably not in the minds of those actually serving; but have you heard any of the tributes, laments, or other comments from people in general, politicians, and other leaders? Anyone who thinks military service isn't glamorized in our society isn't paying attention.
Title: Re: So What If Boys Can't Be Boys And Men Can't Be Men?
Post by: Maryland Brian on December 17, 2010, 04:53:47 PM
Different kind of adventure, Pastor Hughes, different kind of adventure. I have nothing but admiration for military chaplains and the ministry they do. The glamorization of military service is probably not in the minds of those actually serving; but have you heard any of the tributes, laments, or other comments from people in general, politicians, and other leaders? Anyone who thinks military service isn't glamorized in our society isn't paying attention.

  With so many men called up for multiple tours, we shall see.  The post commander of a VFW in my area helped me see it differently.  A Viet Nam vet, he worked with guys who served one tour of that war and needed years to deal with it. His read is that we'll be dealing with the effects of the present ones for many more years because so many guys keep getting sent back overseas.  So from his perspective, there isn't so much glamorization as posers who don't understand the real costs currently being paid.

BTW, back to the tread ... Friend mentioned above was our guest preacher for the Sunday of veterans day weekend.  All three services were filled with brothers, fathers, friends from work, and other unchurched men who came to hear and be prayed for.