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ALPB => Your Turn => Topic started by: LutherMan on October 08, 2010, 09:12:00 AM

Title: The Bible Summarized in Only a Few Words
Post by: LutherMan on October 08, 2010, 09:12:00 AM
From Cyberbrethren, Rev Paul McCain's blog.

http://cyberbrethren.com/2010/10/07/the-bible-summarized-in-only-a-few-words/comment-page-1/#comment-13211

Take a look at this interesting study of the Nicene Creed. I encourage you to use this and walk through the various articles and phrases of the Creed, look up the corresponding recommended Bible verses, and study them in The Lutheran Study Bible, and you will have a very rich and rewarding experience with Godís Word. Thanks to Michael Mapus for sending me this information.

When I confess the creeds during the Divine Service, I find myself closing my eyes, folding my hands, and praying the creeds. It is a deeply devotional and spiritual moment for me at that point and as I say each phrase a whole host of thoughts and images race through my mind. I see images of each of the events confessed. I think of the historic circumstances why each phrase was chosen and think of the church fathers, particularly Athanasius, who sacrificed so much to protect, defend and confess the faith so that we today would be rightly worshiping and confessing the Holy and Blessed Trinity, all glory to Him, for ever and ever!

This was prepared by Richard Gilbert, from Hacienda Hts. California. He suffers from severe MS and put this together about 10 years ago. WHAT A GEM! It is posted for public use. Please remember Brother Gilbert in your prayers!

The Nicene Creed According to the Scriptures

I Believe
Rom. 10:9, Jas 2:19, John 14:1

In one God,
Deut. 6:4, Is. 44:6

The Father
Is. 63:16, 2 Pet 1:17, Matt. 6:9

Almighty,
Gen. 17:1, Ps. 91:1, Rev. 4:8

Maker
Job 4:17, 35:10, Is. 17:7, 54:5

of heaven
Gen 1:1, 8

and earth
Ps. 104:5, Jer. 51:15

and of all things
Gen 1:31

visible and invisible.
Ps. 89:11-12, Amos 4:13, Rev. 3:5, Col. 1:16

And in one Lord
Eph. 4:5

Jesus Christ,
Acts 10:36, 11:17, Rom. 1:7, 5:1, 1 Cor 1:2, 6:11, 2 Cor. 1:2, 8:9
Gal. 1:3, 6:14, Eph. 1:2, 3:11, Phil. 1:2, 3:20, Col. 1:3, 2:6, 1 Thes. 1:1, 5:9,
2 Thes. 1:1, 2:14, 1 Tim. 6:3, 14, 2 Tim. 1:2, Philemon 1:3, 25, Heb. 13:20,
Jas. 1:1, 2:1, 1 Pet. 1:3, 3:15, 2 Pet. 1:8, 14, Jude 17, 21, Rev. 22:20-21

the only-begotton,
John 1:18

Son of God,
Matt 3:17, John 3:16

Begotten of His Father,
Heb. 1:5

Before all worlds,
John 1:1, Col. 1:17, 1 John 1:1

begotten,
John 1:1, Heb. 1:5

Not Made,
Mic. 5:2, John 1:18, 17:5

Being of one substance with the Father,
John 10:30, 14:9

By whom all things were made;
1 Cor. 8:6, Col 1:16

Who for us men
Matt 20:28, John 10:10

and for our salvation
Matt 1:21, Luke 19:10

came down from heaven
Rom. 10:6, Eph. 4:10

and was incarnate
Col. 2:9

by the Holy Spirit
Matt 1:18

of the Virgin Mary
Luke 1:34-35

and was made man;
John 1:14

and was crucified
Matt. 20:19, John 19:18, Rom. 5:6, 8, 2 Cor. 13:4

also for us
Rom. 5:8, 2 Cor. 5:15

under Pontius Pilate.
Matt. 27:2, 26, 1 Tim 6:13

He suffered
1 Pet. 2:21, Heb. 2:10

and was buried.
Mark 15:46, 1 Cor. 15:4

And the third day
Matt. 27:63, 28:1, 1 Cor. 15:4

He rose again
Mark 16:6, 2 Tim. 2:8

according to the Scriptures
Ps. 16:10, Luke 24:25-27, 1 Cor. 15:4

and ascended
Luke 24:51, Acts 1:9

Into heaven
Mark 16:19, Acts 1:11

and sits at the right hand of the Father.
Ps. 110:1, Matt. 26:64, Acts 7:56, Heb. 1:3

And He will come again
Jn. 14:3, 1 Thes. 4:16

with glory
Matt. 16:27, 24:30, 25:31, 26:64, Mark. 8:38, Col. 3:4

to judge
Matt. 25:31-46, Acts 17:31

both the living and the dead,
Acts 10:42, 1 Pet. 4:5

whose kingdom
John 18:36, 2 Tim. 4:1, 18

will have no end.
Luke 1:33, Rev. 11:15, Ps. 145:13

And I believe in the Holy Spirit,
Matt. 28:19, Acts 13:2

The Lord
2 Cor. 3:17

And giver of life,
John 6:63, Rom. 7:6, 8:2, 2 Cor. 3:6

who proceeds from the father
John 14:16-17

and the Son,
John 15:26, Rom. 8:9, Gal. 4:6

Who with the Father and the Son together is worshiped
Luke 4:8, John 4:24

and glorified
John 4:24, 1 Tim. 1:17

Who spoke by the prophets.
1 Pet. 1:10-11, 2 Pet 1:21

And I believe in one
1 Cor. 10:16-17, 12:12-13

Holy
Eph. 3:16-17, 5:27, 1 Pet. 2:9

Catholic
1 Cor. 1:2

and Apostolic
Eph. 2:20, Rev. 21:14

Church,
Acts 20:28, Eph. 1:22-23, Col. 1:24, Heb. 12:23, 1 Pet. 2:9

I acknowledge one Baptism
John 3:5, Rom. 6:3, Eph. 4:5

For the remission of sins,
Acts 2:38, 1 Pet. 3:21, Tit. 3:5

And I look for the resurrection of the dead
1 Thes. 4:16, 1 Cor. 15:12-13, 16, 52

And the life of the world to come.
1 Cor 15:54-57, Rev. 22:5

Amen.
Ps. 41:13, 2 Cor. 1:20
Title: Re: The Bible Summarized in Only a Few Words
Post by: James Gustafson on October 08, 2010, 09:20:21 AM
Nice, thank you, I for one don't think I've seen this one before.  I'll use it for a study session, I'm thinking it looks like more than one study session too. 
Title: Re: The Bible Summarized in Only a Few Words
Post by: LutherMan on October 08, 2010, 09:22:32 AM
Click the link and go to the blog and you can run your mouse over the Scriptural citations and it brings up the verse. 
Title: Re: The Bible Summarized in Only a Few Words
Post by: Mike Bennett on October 08, 2010, 11:58:23 AM

The Nicene Creed According to the Scriptures

I Believe
Rom. 10:9, Jas 2:19, John 14:1

[etc]


I've carried around an "annotated Nicene Creed" whose origin I don't remember.  It shares some of the above Scripture references but many of the two don't overlap.  Here it is for anybody who wants to devote the labor to combining the two to produce a Nicene Creed with even more Scripture references.  I just might do it myself.

We believe (Rom 10:8-10; 1 Jn 4:15)
in one God, (Dt 6:4; Heb 11:6; 1 Co 8:4-6; Rom 3:29-31; Eph 4:6.)
the Father, (Mt 6:9; 1 Cor 8:6)
the Almighty, (Ex 6:3; Rev. 1:8 )
maker of heaven and earth, (Ex. 20:11; Gen 1; Gen. 2)
of all that is, seen and unseen. (Jer 32:17; Col 1:15-16)

We believe in one Lord, (Acts 10:36)
Jesus (Matt. 1:21)
Christ (Jn 4:25-26; Acts 11:17)
the only Son of God, (Mt 14:33; 16:16; John 1:14)
eternally begotten of the Father, (Jn 1:2; 1:18; 3:16; 1 Jn 4:9)
God from God, Light from Light, (Ps 27:1; Mat 17:2,5;  Jn 1:4; 8:12; Jn 12:35-37;1 Jn 1:5-7)
true God from true God, (Jn 5:18f; 17:1-5)
begotten, not made, (Jn 8:58)
of one Being with the Father. (Jn10:30)
Through him all things were made. (Jn 1:3; Heb 1:1-2)
For us and for our salvation, (Mt 1:21; 1Ti 2:4-5)
he came down from heaven: (Jn 3:31; 6:33,35)
by the power of the Holy Spirit (Lk 1:35)
he was born of the Virgin Mary, (Luke 2:6f)
and became man. (Jn 1:14; Phil 2:5-8)
For our sake he was crucified (Mk 15:25; 1 Cor 15:3)
under Pontius Pilate; (Mt 27:22-26; Jn 1:14)
he suffered died and was buried. (Mt 27:50-60; Mk 8:31; Lk 23:53; 1 Cor 15:4; Phil 2:5-8)
On the third day he rose again (Mt 28:6)
in accordance with the Scriptures; (Lk 24:1; 1 Cor 15:4)
he ascended into heaven (Lk 24:51; Ac 1:9-10)
and is seated at the right hand of the Father. (Mk 16:19; Ac 7:55)
He will come again in glory (Mt 24:27; 25:31)
to judge the living and the dead, (Ac 10:42; 1 Ti 4:1; 2 Ti 4:1)
and his kingdom will have no end. (Lk 1:33; 2Pet 1:11)

We believe in the Holy Spirit, (Jn 14:26)
the Lord, (Ac 5:3-4; 28:25; 2 Cor 3:17-18 cf Is. 6:8 )
the giver of life, (Gen 1:2; Rom 8:2; 2 Cor 3:6)
who proceeds from the Father (Jn 15:26)
and the Son. (Rom 8:9)
With the Father and the Son he is worshipped and glorified. (Mt 3:16-17; Rev. 4:8 )
He has spoken through the Prophets. (1 Sam 19:20; Ezek 11:5,13; 2 Peter 1:21)
We believe in one (Mt 16:18; Jn 10:16)
holy (Eph 5:26-27; 1 Pet 2:5,9)
catholic (Mk 16:15; Rom 10:18)
and apostolic Church. (Ac 2:42; Eph 2:19-22)
We acknowledge one baptism (Eph. 4:5)
for the forgiveness of sins. (Acts 2:38)
We look for the resurrection of the dead, (Jn 11:24; Rom 6:5; 1 Cor 15:12-49)
and the life of the world to come. (Mt 25:34; Mk 10: 29-30; Rev 21:1-7)

Amen. (Ps 106:48)

Mike Bennett
Title: Re: The Bible Summarized in Only a Few Words
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on October 08, 2010, 12:02:27 PM
Even shorter:

The Bible in Fifty Words

God made
Adam bit
Noah arked
Abraham split
Joseph ruled
Jacob fooled
bush talked
Moses balked
Pharaoh plagued
people walked
Sea divided
tablets guided
promise landed
Saul freaked
David peeked
prophets warned
Jesus born
God walked
love talked
anger crucified
hope died
Love rose
Spirit flamed
Word spread
God remained
Title: Re: The Bible Summarized in Only a Few Words
Post by: DeHall on October 08, 2010, 12:10:19 PM
"I've carried around an "annotated Nicene Creed" whose origen I don't remember. "

I always thought that Origen was ante-Nicene :)
Title: Re: The Bible Summarized in Only a Few Words
Post by: Scott6 on October 08, 2010, 12:14:09 PM
I always thought that Origen was ante-Nicene :)

Being quite pre-Nicene, Nicea isn't the best way to judge his thought.  ;)

Dawson wrote a good book on Origen recently entitled Christian Figural Reading and the Fashioning of Identity -- in my mind, and instant classic.
Title: Re: The Bible Summarized in Only a Few Words
Post by: Mike Bennett on October 08, 2010, 12:33:51 PM
"I've carried around an "annotated Nicene Creed" whose origen I don't remember. "

I always thought that Origen was ante-Nicene :)

A nice thing about the "modify" button is that errors can be made deniable.    8)

Mike Bennett
Title: Re: The Bible Summarized in Only a Few Words
Post by: Mike Bennett on October 08, 2010, 12:38:34 PM
"I've carried around an "annotated Nicene Creed" whose origen I don't remember. "

I always thought that Origen was ante-Nicene :)

Apropos of nothing perhaps:

At one of those overly-secure bank web sites where you get to pick a picture for your password screen to make you warm and comfy you're on the authentic site, I picked a nice picture of a pelican, because I was tired of always picking the picture of the dog.  But in the place where you type the description of the image, I entered "pelikan."  It was months later that I realized what I'd done.

Mike Bennett
Title: Re: The Bible Summarized in Only a Few Words
Post by: pastorg1@aol.com on October 08, 2010, 01:01:24 PM
Bible Summary:

God says to us:

I'm God.
You're not.
Get used to it.

Peter (K.I.S.S.) Garrison
Title: Re: The Bible Summarized in Only a Few Words
Post by: Richard Johnson on October 08, 2010, 02:11:40 PM
I must admit I'm not too enchanted by this "Scripture proofs of Nicene Creed" kitsch.

Much more interesting, I thought, if you missed it, was Sarah Hinlicky's challenge over at lutheranforum.org to compile a list of 66 verses, choosing what you think is the "key verse" in each of the 66 Biblical books. Now THAT'S an interesting exercise!
Title: Re: The Bible Summarized in Only a Few Words
Post by: Mike Bennett on October 08, 2010, 04:26:49 PM
I must admit I'm not too enchanted by this "Scripture proofs of Nicene Creed" kitsch.


Well la dee da!

Perhaps if you'd spent 9 months with a college roommate's Jehovah's Witnesses tutor visiting every Wednesday night with a passle of crap about how the Nicene Creed was just made up by the (shudder!) pope, and how we must go direct to scripture to learn how we're not allowed to vote or have blood transfusions, and never mind that popish creed, you be more enchanted.  Or not.

Mike Bennett
Title: Re: The Bible Summarized in Only a Few Words
Post by: Richard Johnson on October 08, 2010, 05:08:46 PM
Perhaps.

My point really is that "prooftexting" is not a particularly helpful way to combat anything, and "prooftexting" is precisely what this is, even if in a good cause.
Title: Re: The Bible Summarized in Only a Few Words
Post by: Jeff-MN on October 08, 2010, 07:51:05 PM
Holy Spirit proceeds .... from the Son?

Don't find that in the Bible.  Lutherans are sola tradition on this one.
Title: Re: The Bible Summarized in Only a Few Words
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on October 08, 2010, 07:55:34 PM
Perhaps if you'd spent 9 months with a college roommate's Jehovah's Witnesses tutor visiting every Wednesday night with a passle of crap about how the Nicene Creed was just made up by the (shudder!) pope, and how we must go direct to scripture to learn how we're not allowed to vote or have blood transfusions, and never mind that popish creed, you be more enchanted.  Or not.

And if we use scriptures just like they do, why should our witness be believed any more than theirs? Jehovah Witnesses are a good example of a "Scripture alone" group -- basing everything on proof-texts from the Bible; without the correctives that grace alone and faith alone bring with them.
Title: Re: The Bible Summarized in Only a Few Words
Post by: Mike Bennett on October 08, 2010, 08:45:43 PM
Perhaps if you'd spent 9 months with a college roommate's Jehovah's Witnesses tutor visiting every Wednesday night with a passle of crap about how the Nicene Creed was just made up by the (shudder!) pope, and how we must go direct to scripture to learn how we're not allowed to vote or have blood transfusions, and never mind that popish creed, you be more enchanted.  Or not.

And if we use scriptures just like they do, why should our witness be believed any more than theirs? Jehovah Witnesses are a good example of a "Scripture alone" group -- basing everything on proof-texts from the Bible; without the correctives that grace alone and faith alone bring with them.

Hooey.

Jehovah's Witnesses are of the worst sort of Scripture twisters, liars, and revisers of history. (e.g. the nonsense about the Creed being created of whole cloth by the Pope).

Mike Bennett
Title: Re: The Bible Summarized in Only a Few Words
Post by: LutherMan on October 08, 2010, 08:49:19 PM
ICAM with you, Mike Bennett!
Title: Re: The Bible Summarized in Only a Few Words
Post by: Mike Bennett on October 08, 2010, 08:58:33 PM
Perhaps.

My point really is that "prooftexting" is not a particularly helpful way to combat anything, and "prooftexting" is precisely what this is, even if in a good cause.


When a either an honest inquirer or a scoffer challenges the basis for some portion of the Creed and the orthodox believer can support it from Scripture, I'm for that.  If that's "prooftexting" so be it. Seems 'way more valuable than trying to come up with 66 of something from the Bible because the protestant Bible has 66 books.

"Combatting" something isn't all it's about.  Answering honest questions from adolescent kids involved in the last two years of official Christian education in the congregation is pretty important.  If some kid asks me "Where on earth did that come from?" regarding some portion of the Creed, and I'm unable to give a supportable, forthcoming response, I've got to start looking over my shoulder for the guy with the millstone and the rope.  I would think that's important for a pastor too, but I'm naive and never went to school near salt water.

Mike Bennett
Title: Re: The Bible Summarized in Only a Few Words
Post by: Edward Engelbrecht on October 09, 2010, 08:03:52 AM
I like to see a teacher with his finger on the text of Scripture when he's teaching. Theology without a text will stray.

Just read this morning that Luther's first known and preached sermon was on John 3:16. Not a bad summary of the Bible. Suitable for the church or for the stadium.  :)
Title: Re: The Bible Summarized in Only a Few Words
Post by: ptmccain on October 09, 2010, 09:20:35 AM
Misapplying Biblical passages by taking them out of context, of course, is wrong. But I am having a hard time understanding the concern about showing how the truth of each phrase of the Nicene Creed can be demonstrated by the text of the Scriptures is not a good thing. Can you help me here, Richard?
Title: Re: The Bible Summarized in Only a Few Words
Post by: Richard Johnson on October 09, 2010, 11:02:14 AM
Didn't say it was "wrong." Just said it was kitschy.
Title: Re: The Bible Summarized in Only a Few Words
Post by: ptmccain on October 09, 2010, 11:09:43 AM
A definition of "kitsch" is:

1.  Sentimentality or vulgar, often pretentious bad taste, especially in the arts: "When money tries to buy beauty it tends to purchase a kind of courteous kitsch" (William H. Gass).

So, not sure how/why you feel showing how the phrases in the Creed are anchored in Biblical texts is "kitsch."

Again, help me understand your point, Richard. Thanks.

Title: Re: The Bible Summarized in Only a Few Words
Post by: Mike Bennett on October 09, 2010, 11:14:45 AM
Didn't say it was "wrong." Just said it was kitschy.

 kitsch \ˈkich\ noun
[German] 1925
  1      : something that appeals to popular or lowbrow taste and is often of poor quality
  2      : a tacky or lowbrow quality or condition 〈teetering on the brink of kitsch óRon Miller〉 ó kitsch adjective ó kitschy \ˈki-chē\ adjective

Merriam-Webster, I. (2003). Merriam-Webster's collegiate dictionary. (Eleventh ed.). Springfield, Mass.: Merriam-Webster, Inc.

I don't get it.  But rather than getting myself banned from this list and polite society in general for the response that's boiling, I'm going to drop it.  But I plan to continue doing what Edward Englebrecht described above.

Mike Bennett
Title: Re: The Bible Summarized in Only a Few Words
Post by: Edward Engelbrecht on October 09, 2010, 01:43:58 PM
In 1550 Melanchthon published Enarratio Symboli Nicaeni, which includes Bible references, as I recall. So, the practice seems to be venerable Reformation-era Kitsch, which is the best kind of kitsch, of course.

It is found in Corpus Reformatorum XXIII. Trying to find a copy of Google Books but not pulling it up.
Title: Re: The Bible Summarized in Only a Few Words
Post by: ptmccain on October 09, 2010, 01:52:54 PM
I consider the "Here I Stand" socks we sell at CPH to be the best Reformation kitsch I've ever seen. That and the bobble-head Katie and Martin Luther statues.

 :D
Title: Re: The Bible Summarized in Only a Few Words
Post by: Richard Johnson on October 09, 2010, 02:32:53 PM
Well, there's kitsch and then there's kitsch. Reminds me of a game a colleague and I used to play, back in the days when Augsburg Fortress still did synod displays. We challenged one another to find the tackiest thing they had for sale. Trouble is, we could never agree; too many choices.

I really did not mean to ruffle anyone's feathers. Certainly there is a long tradition, going back to the Fathers, of citing Scripture verses after virtually every sentence. I suspect it hit its stride during the scholastic period, because it fit in well with scholastic methodology. I just don't find it a particularly helpful way to discuss theology or doctrine, and often veers off into "proof-texting," thus encouraging that as a means of theological discourse.

If it is helpful to others, well and good. Same thing with music or art; you may find help and comfort and strength in something that I find trite and uninspiring. Doesn't mean I'm better than you, or smarter than you, or anything like that. It simply means different people find different things to be useful. My original statement was "I'm not too enchanted" by this, and I offered an alternative exercise that I found more helpful. If the term "kitsch" offended you, I apologize.
Title: Re: The Bible Summarized in Only a Few Words
Post by: ptmccain on October 09, 2010, 02:47:47 PM
No ruffled feathers here, but still continued curiosity.

Perhaps I could ask you this, Richard, to better understand your comments.

If and when somebody asks you, "Pastor, where does the Bible teach the things we say when we confess the Nicene Creed?" How would you go about answering them?
Title: Re: The Bible Summarized in Only a Few Words
Post by: Richard Johnson on October 09, 2010, 03:05:31 PM
Let me start by saying that in 36 years, no one has ever asked me that.

I would likely begin with a brief historical comment about when and why the creed was written. I would then explain that it is in many ways a kind of summary of Biblical faith (though I think that argument would fly better with the Apostles' Creed). I would say that the first article summarizes what we believe about the Father, with particular focus on what Genesis teaches in the first two chapters; that the second article summarizes what we believe about the Son of God, with an outline of what the gospels teach about his life, and the epistles about his "future," and with particular attention to answering questions that arose about his nature in the early centuries; that the third article summarizes what we believe about the Holy Spirit, including the church, reminding them to review what they learned in the Small Catechism. I would explain that the creed in and of itself is not found in the Bible, but that it summarizes teachings that are found in the Bible.

Then I'd send them to your website for the proof texts.  ;D
Title: Re: The Bible Summarized in Only a Few Words
Post by: grabau14 on October 09, 2010, 03:20:20 PM
Do you not have Baptist like influences out there in California, Richard?  In my neck of the woods, there is a very popular Baptist radio station that virtually all the "good Lutherans" listen to.  Those who know their SC well aren't as misled as others who do not remember their catechism.  The Baptists (at least the ones on the radio) have on occassion called those who use creeds papists.  Baptist radio makes the life of a Lutheran pastor challenging and exciting-one must always be ready to discuss the creeds, decision theology, infant baptism, and the end times.

During the height of the Dan Brown Da Vinci Code book/movie, I had plenty of questions come my way. 
Title: Re: The Bible Summarized in Only a Few Words
Post by: ptmccain on October 09, 2010, 03:27:25 PM
Then I'd send them to your website for the proof texts.  ;D

Sounds like a plan. Best for them not to take your word for it, or mine, but God's.
Title: Re: The Bible Summarized in Only a Few Words
Post by: ptmccain on October 09, 2010, 03:30:29 PM
It's interesting to me that whenever I do a radio interview with Issues, Etc. [the best Lutheran radio show out there], the producer, Jeff, always tells me to make sure that any assertion I make about Christian doctrine, I back it up by quoting the pertinent texts. Seems a lot of laity are like those Berean Christians whom Luke described this way:

"Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true. "

Prooftext: Acts 17:11

Forgive me, but it seems to me the problems in modernist/revisionist/apostate Lutheranism can be traced directly back to the separation of doctrinal musings from the text of the Scripture.
Title: Re: The Bible Summarized in Only a Few Words
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on October 09, 2010, 03:53:17 PM
Forgive me, but it seems to me the problems in modernist/revisionist/apostate Lutheranism can be traced directly back to the separation of doctrinal musings from the text of the Scripture.

I would rather say "the separation of doctrinal musings from the message of the Scripture." My guess that Luther's opponents could find texts of scriptures to support their positions (as Luther and his followers also did). We've already stated that Jehovah Witnesses find texts of scriptures that support their beliefs, as do Baptists, Methodists, etc.

For Luther and for us, it is the message of God that comes to us as Law and Gospel that is most important; not little details like how long a man's (or woman's) hair should be.
Title: Re: The Bible Summarized in Only a Few Words
Post by: Dan Fienen on October 09, 2010, 04:15:45 PM
Brian, have you ever carefully studied the Bible passages that the JWs use to support their assertions?  Not all references to the Scriptures or quoting of proof texts are created equal.  You talk as though when Luther referenced a Scripture passage to support a point, it is equal to when a JW does it.  The difference is that frequently when the JWs do that it is Scripture out of context or very carefully translated (and biased in translation, not in accordance with the best scholarship on the passage) to support the point.  Luther usually used passages that in context actually talked about and meant what Luther was citing them for.  You are correct.  Just quoting a Bible passage that as it is quoted seems to say what I want it to say is not enough.  One has to carefully consider the context to see if it actually supports the point.  But that is not pure subjectivity - which seems to be the point you want to make.

Dan
Title: Re: The Bible Summarized in Only a Few Words
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on October 09, 2010, 04:30:28 PM
Brian, have you ever carefully studied the Bible passages that the JWs use to support their assertions?  Not all references to the Scriptures or quoting of proof texts are created equal.  You talk as though when Luther referenced a Scripture passage to support a point, it is equal to when a JW does it.

What makes Luther's way different? I don't imagine it would take too much work for a Roman Catholic or a Methodist to criticize the way Luther used passages -- and support their arguments with other passages about the importance of works/fruit/obedience. That's one reason why Lutherans and Roman Catholics continue to have their theological differences.

Quote
The difference is that frequently when the JWs do that it is Scripture out of context or very carefully translated (and biased in translation, not in accordance with the best scholarship on the passage) to support the point.  Luther usually used passages that in context actually talked about and meant what Luther was citing them for.  You are correct.  Just quoting a Bible passage that as it is quoted seems to say what I want it to say is not enough.  One has to carefully consider the context to see if it actually supports the point.  But that is not pure subjectivity - which seems to be the point you want to make.

I agree. A verse out of context is like the word "bar" without a sentence. By itself, there are numerous ways of understanding what it means. Only within the context of a sentence does its meaning become clear. "He was a member of the bar." "He passed the bar." "He went into the bar and stood at the bar." "He locked the door with a metal bar." "He is the best preacher in town, bar none." "He ate a bar of chocolate." "He was mauled by a grizzly bar."

While we may quote one verse, e.g., with the Creed; its message is found by looking at it within the larger contexts: the paragraph, the book, and the Bible, and orthodox Christian beliefs, e.g., the Trinity, the natures of Christ.

I've had JW's at my door who couldn't wait to leave. When they start talking biblical stuff, I pull out my Greek NT and challenge their translations and contexts. After doing that once, they never came back to my door. :)
Title: Re: The Bible Summarized in Only a Few Words
Post by: Mike Bennett on October 10, 2010, 10:00:36 PM
If the term "kitsch" offended you, I apologize.

It did, and I accept your apology.

Mike Bennett