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ALPB => Your Turn => Topic started by: jrubyaz on December 22, 2009, 01:07:04 AM

Title: Election of Bishop in MD-DE Synod Postponed
Post by: jrubyaz on December 22, 2009, 01:07:04 AM
It appears a constitutional snafu has been noted, and after consultation with the Presiding Bishop,  the special assembly called for the election of a new Bishop in MD-DE Synod has been cancelled. The Synod will wait until June 2010, it seems that something in the constitution indicated the same voting members to last years assembly in June would have to elect the new Bishop.  Upon further reading , it appears the Articles of Inc. supersede the constitution and bylaws, which is odd.

It does appear this was a wise call, as pastors new to synod and those not seated in the last assembly but eligible for next June regular assembly would not have been able to vote.

Someone didn't proofread very well........... :'(

http://www.demdsynod.org/news/transitionsbishop/transitionbishop.html
Title: Re: Election of Bishop in MD-DE Synod Postponed
Post by: James_Gale on December 22, 2009, 01:18:50 AM
This document in particular explains the decision:  http://www.demdsynod.org/news/transitionsbishop/nancyofficialnotice.txt (http://www.demdsynod.org/news/transitionsbishop/nancyofficialnotice.txt).

Title: Re: Election of Bishop in MD-DE Synod Postponed
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on December 22, 2009, 11:07:43 AM
It appears a constitutional snafu has been noted, and after consultation with the Presiding Bishop,  the special assembly called for the election of a new Bishop in MD-DE Synod has been cancelled. The Synod will wait until June 2010, it seems that something in the constitution indicated the same voting members to last years assembly in June would have to elect the new Bishop.  Upon further reading , it appears the Articles of Inc. supersede the constitution and bylaws, which is odd.
Articles of incorporation rank higher than constitutions and bylaws. If there are differences between the documents, the Articles win.
Title: Re: Election of Bishop in MD-DE Synod Postponed
Post by: Dissenter on December 22, 2009, 11:11:37 AM

  Sounds like someone had a shot of smarts to the head.  Perhaps it came about from constitutional picking of nits.  I'm thinking someone figured out how many people couldn't be there and decided it wasn't a wise move to exclude them.

Title: Re: Election of Bishop in MD-DE Synod Postponed
Post by: James_Gale on December 22, 2009, 11:14:55 AM
It appears a constitutional snafu has been noted, and after consultation with the Presiding Bishop,  the special assembly called for the election of a new Bishop in MD-DE Synod has been cancelled. The Synod will wait until June 2010, it seems that something in the constitution indicated the same voting members to last years assembly in June would have to elect the new Bishop.  Upon further reading , it appears the Articles of Inc. supersede the constitution and bylaws, which is odd.
Articles of incorporation rank higher than constitutions and bylaws. If there are differences between the documents, the Articles win.

Pr. Stoffregen is right.  Under the law, Articles of Incorporation rank highest in authority among governance documents.  They always and without exception take precedence over corporations' constitutions and bylaws.
Title: Re: Election of Bishop in MD-DE Synod Postponed
Post by: George Erdner on December 22, 2009, 12:14:20 PM
I wonder what would happen if enough of the people who were voters at the previous assembly had left the ELCA and they couldn't muster a quorum?
Title: Re: Election of Bishop in MD-DE Synod Postponed
Post by: James_Gale on December 22, 2009, 12:25:56 PM
I wonder what would happen if enough of the people who were voters at the previous assembly had left the ELCA and they couldn't muster a quorum?

This is an interesting question.  I'd have to see the governing documents at issue here.  But one possibility is that voting members from the last regular assembly retain their status irrespective of whether they remain within the ELCA.  They are, after all, "voting members."  They are not delegates. 

That aside, if an assembly cannot muster a quorum, it obviously cannot conduct business (aside from taking one of a small number of procedural steps).  The synod council then would have to take any necessary steps to permit the synod to operate until the next regular assembly, for which new voting members would be selected.
Title: Re: Election of Bishop in MD-DE Synod Postponed
Post by: racin_jason on December 22, 2009, 12:40:53 PM
Given this priority, we are guided by the Holy Spirit to make the difficult decision to cancel the special election.

Here we go again, saying the Spirit has spoken regarding an ELCA assembly, this time weighing in on cancelling one.

I commend the synod for doing the right thing, but putting this kind of language in the announcement begs questions of whether or not the spirit was speaking when they called the assembly to begin with, or how the spirit confronted anyone with their own short-sightedness, be it boldly or gently.

It is an issue of piety and writing style, but I grow weary of reading communiqués of this nature.

 
Title: Re: Election of Bishop in MD-DE Synod Postponed
Post by: pastorg1@aol.com on December 22, 2009, 12:52:14 PM
"Given this priority, we are guided by the Holy Spirit to make the difficult decision to cancel the special election."

Giving the Holy Spirit due respect is a faithful piety- but can quickly lead us- in our hunger for self-respect- to consuming the Spirit, "feathers and all," as Luther said of the Enthusiasts.

Too, when Joan D'Arc mentioned during her trial that God spoke to her directly, the court scribe noted by her remark, "responsio mortifera," the death-dealing remark which would lead to her martyrdom. In her Catholic piety, she blamed the saints speaking to her directly- Lutherans have only the Spirit to blame.

Peter (Do I smell smoke?) Garrison
Title: Re: Election of Bishop in MD-DE Synod Postponed
Post by: Mike Bennett on December 22, 2009, 03:56:50 PM
Given this priority, we are guided by the Holy Spirit to make the difficult decision to cancel the special election.

Here we go again, saying the Spirit has spoken regarding an ELCA assembly, this time weighing in on cancelling one.

I commend the synod for doing the right thing, but putting this kind of language in the announcement begs questions of whether or not the spirit was speaking when they called the assembly to begin with, or how the spirit confronted anyone with their own short-sightedness, be it boldly or gently.

It is an issue of piety and writing style, but I grow weary of reading communiqués of this nature.


Seems to border on violation of the Second Commandment.  The decision was driven by adherence to the organization's own Articles of Incorporation (a good and proper manifestation of the left kingdom). 

Perhaps an early order of business of the next Synod Assembly should be to amend the Articles of Incorporation to say what the Synod had meant to be its practice all along.
Title: Re: Election of Bishop in MD-DE Synod Postponed
Post by: Dissenter on December 22, 2009, 04:26:41 PM
Given this priority, we are guided by the Holy Spirit to make the difficult decision to cancel the special election.


 The recently retired Bishop from that synod didn't talk like this. He was also the only sitting Bishop who signed CORE's pre-CWA open letter.

Title: Re: Election of Bishop in MD-DE Synod Postponed
Post by: James_Gale on December 22, 2009, 04:31:01 PM
Given this priority, we are guided by the Holy Spirit to make the difficult decision to cancel the special election.

Here we go again, saying the Spirit has spoken regarding an ELCA assembly, this time weighing in on cancelling one.

I commend the synod for doing the right thing, but putting this kind of language in the announcement begs questions of whether or not the spirit was speaking when they called the assembly to begin with, or how the spirit confronted anyone with their own short-sightedness, be it boldly or gently.

It is an issue of piety and writing style, but I grow weary of reading communiqués of this nature.


Seems to border on violation of the Second Commandment.  The decision was driven by adherence to the organization's own Articles of Incorporation (a good and proper manifestation of the left kingdom).  

Perhaps an early order of business of the next Synod Assembly should be to amend the Articles of Incorporation to say what the Synod had meant to be its practice all along.

The Synod's decision process involved more than mere "adherence to the organization's own Articles of Incorporation."  The Articles would have permitted the Synod to hold a special assembly.  However, the voting members at such an assembly would have been those who attended the last regular assembly.  Congregations would not be able to elect new or replacement lay voting members.  Moreover, those added to the Synod's rostered ministry since the 2009 regular assembly would be precluded from voting.  

The Synod therefore had two alternatives.  It could hold a special assembly with the voting members from the 2009 regular assembly.  Or it could delay the election of a new bishop until the 2010 regular assembly, which will include newly appointed lay voting members and all persons then on the Synod's rosters.  Leadership selected the second option.  

Was that decision guided by the Holy Spirit?  I don't know.
Title: Re: Election of Bishop in MD-DE Synod Postponed
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on December 22, 2009, 04:39:31 PM
I wonder what would happen if enough of the people who were voters at the previous assembly had left the ELCA and they couldn't muster a quorum?

This is an interesting question.  I'd have to see the governing documents at issue here.  But one possibility is that voting members from the last regular assembly retain their status irrespective of whether they remain within the ELCA.  They are, after all, "voting members."  They are not delegates.
When voting members of a congregation leave the congregation, they lose their voting status.

Quote
That aside, if an assembly cannot muster a quorum, it obviously cannot conduct business (aside from taking one of a small number of procedural steps).  The synod council then would have to take any necessary steps to permit the synod to operate until the next regular assembly, for which new voting members would be selected.
The model constitution for synods states:
S7.14. One-half of the members of the Synod Assembly shall constitute a quorum.

Title: Re: Election of Bishop in MD-DE Synod Postponed
Post by: James_Gale on December 22, 2009, 04:42:30 PM
I wonder what would happen if enough of the people who were voters at the previous assembly had left the ELCA and they couldn't muster a quorum?

This is an interesting question.  I'd have to see the governing documents at issue here.  But one possibility is that voting members from the last regular assembly retain their status irrespective of whether they remain within the ELCA.  They are, after all, "voting members."  They are not delegates.

When voting members of a congregation leave the congregation, they lose their voting status.


Pr. Stoffregen --

You may well be right.  We don't have the MD-DE Synod governing documents, so we can't be absolutely certain.  The model constitution for synods seems to confirm what you're saying.  But the Articles of Incorporation might provide otherwise. 

Jim
Title: Re: Election of Bishop in MD-DE Synod Postponed
Post by: Steven Tibbetts on December 22, 2009, 05:08:21 PM
I'm pretty sure that the Model Synod Constitution provisions of calling a special assembly is in line with the Synod's articles of Incorporation.  I know the ELCA Constitution is.  However if would seem to me that, as with the ELCA's CWA, if an elected voting member resigns, he can be replaced by the appropriate authority. 

I wonder is anyone uses Common Sense any more?

Pax, Steven+
Title: Re: Election of Bishop in MD-DE Synod Postponed
Post by: James_Gale on December 22, 2009, 05:24:58 PM
I'm pretty sure that the Model Synod Constitution provisions of calling a special assembly is in line with the Synod's articles of Incorporation.  I know the ELCA Constitution is.  However if would seem to me that, as with the ELCA's CWA, if an elected voting member resigns, he can be replaced by the appropriate authority. 

I wonder is anyone uses Common Sense any more?

Pax, Steven+

I had agreed to attend the special assembly from my congregation.  When canceling the special assembly, the synod told us that the Articles of Incorporation did not permit anyone to serve as a voting member who had not been a voting member at the 2009 regular assembly.  The synod constitution apparently would permit replacements.  But because the Articles of Incorporation do not, the contrary constitutional provisions are of no effect. 
Title: Re: Election of Bishop in MD-DE Synod Postponed
Post by: Richard Johnson on December 22, 2009, 06:00:41 PM
What I want to know is, Why on earth does the Delaware-Maryland Synod have its synod assembly in Pennsylvania?
Title: Re: Election of Bishop in MD-DE Synod Postponed
Post by: Steven Tibbetts on December 22, 2009, 06:09:39 PM
What I want to know is, Why on earth does the Delaware-Maryland Synod have its synod assembly in Pennsylvania?

Nicer facilities? 

The Metro Chicago Synod used to hold its regular assemblies at Carthage College, Kenosha, Wisconsin. 

Pax, Steven+
Title: Re: Election of Bishop in MD-DE Synod Postponed
Post by: George Erdner on December 22, 2009, 06:22:55 PM
What I want to know is, Why on earth does the Delaware-Maryland Synod have its synod assembly in Pennsylvania?

Nicer facilities? 

The Metro Chicago Synod used to hold its regular assemblies at Carthage College, Kenosha, Wisconsin. 

Pax, Steven+

The Southwestern Pennsylvania Synod holds its regular assemblies at Thiel college, which is outside its geographic borders, though still in Pennsylvania.

Title: Re: Election of Bishop in MD-DE Synod Postponed
Post by: gcnuss on December 22, 2009, 06:30:06 PM
What I want to know is, Why on earth does the Delaware-Maryland Synod have its synod assembly in Pennsylvania?

When I served as a voting member to the Washington DC Metro Synod assemblies, they alternated between
Roanoke College in Salem, Virginia and Gettysburg, PA.  Part of the rationale, as I understood it, was to keep voting members
at the assembly rather than having them run off to handle other business in their congregations (or businesses).
Of course, that was a issue because the DC Metro Synod is quite small geographically.
Title: Re: Election of Bishop in MD-DE Synod Postponed
Post by: PrSabin on December 22, 2009, 06:40:49 PM

I wonder is anyone uses Common Sense any more?

Pax, Steven+

Alas, that which may once have been common sense is now rare sense. I shall not here even begin to bewail the departure of “decently and in order.”

SPS

Title: Re: Election of Bishop in MD-DE Synod Postponed
Post by: Dissenter on December 22, 2009, 07:58:58 PM
What I want to know is, Why on earth does the Delaware-Maryland Synod have its synod assembly in Pennsylvania?

Cost. 
Title: Re: Election of Bishop in MD-DE Synod Postponed
Post by: Richard Johnson on December 22, 2009, 08:02:24 PM
Seems odd to me. Does the bishop, like, have any authority outside the bounds of his synod?  >:( ;D
Title: Re: Election of Bishop in MD-DE Synod Postponed
Post by: George Erdner on December 22, 2009, 08:05:54 PM
Seems odd to me. Does the bishop, like, have any authority outside the bounds of his synod?  >:( ;D

I don't see why he would. He doesn't seem to have any authority inside the bounds of his synod.  ::)
Title: Re: Election of Bishop in MD-DE Synod Postponed
Post by: PrSabin on December 22, 2009, 08:07:00 PM
Seems odd to me. Does the bishop, like, have any authority outside the bounds of his synod?  >:( ;D

Yes, Richard, bishops, unlike vampires, can cross running water….

 ;D

SPS
Title: Re: Election of Bishop in MD-DE Synod Postponed
Post by: James_Gale on December 22, 2009, 09:59:41 PM
What I want to know is, Why on earth does the Delaware-Maryland Synod have its synod assembly in Pennsylvania?

The MD-DE Synod was going to hold the special assembly in College Park, MD, which is in the Metro DC Synod. 

The Minneapolis Area Synod regularly holds its assemblies in St. Peter, which is located in the Southwestern Minnesota Synod.

I don't know what authority the bishops have when outside their synods.  I do know that any bishop who happens to be in southwestern Minnesota should avoid at all cost wearing a mitre or carrying a crozier.   
Title: Re: Election of Bishop in MD-DE Synod Postponed
Post by: PrSabin on December 23, 2009, 12:43:03 AM
Since a crosier is a symbol of jurisdiction, any bishop outside his or her own see should avoid carrying a crosier. I have not seen an ELCA bishop wearing a miter since the earliest days of the ELCA. I am guessing, James, that you are hinting at some facet of local piety or aesthetic that advises against such ancient symbols of episcope?

SPS

Title: Re: Election of Bishop in MD-DE Synod Postponed
Post by: jrubyaz on December 23, 2009, 12:51:23 AM


Thomas Paine? Oh, he died, sorry.   ;D 8)

I'm pretty sure that the Model Synod Constitution provisions of calling a special assembly is in line with the Synod's articles of Incorporation.  I know the ELCA Constitution is.  However if would seem to me that, as with the ELCA's CWA, if an elected voting member resigns, he can be replaced by the appropriate authority. 

I wonder is anyone uses Common Sense any more?

Pax, Steven+
Title: Re: Election of Bishop in MD-DE Synod Postponed
Post by: James_Gale on December 23, 2009, 01:10:52 AM
Since a crosier is a symbol of jurisdiction, any bishop outside his or her own see should avoid carrying a crosier. I have not seen an ELCA bishop wearing a miter since the earliest days of the ELCA. I am guessing, James, that you are hinting at some facet of local piety or aesthetic that advises against such ancient symbols of episcope?

SPS



Pr. Sabin --

I spend a good deal of time in that part of Minnesota.  Many congregations there come from that segment of the ELCA that has had the greatest concerns about the role of bishops under CCM.  

In New York, where I lived for many years, I attended worship services where the ELCA bishop wore a miter and carried a crozier.  

For what it's worth, which is not much, I personally am not troubled in the least by the use of either the mitre or the crozier.  I simply find it interesting that different groups of Lutherans react very differently to them.

Jim
Title: Re: Election of Bishop in MD-DE Synod Postponed
Post by: PrSabin on December 23, 2009, 01:17:50 AM
Since a crosier is a symbol of jurisdiction, any bishop outside his or her own see should avoid carrying a crosier. I have not seen an ELCA bishop wearing a miter since the earliest days of the ELCA. I am guessing, James, that you are hinting at some facet of local piety or aesthetic that advises against such ancient symbols of episcope?

SPS



Pr. Sabin --

I spend a good deal of time in that part of Minnesota.  Many congregations there come from that segment of the ELCA that has had the greatest concerns about the role of bishops under CCM.  

In New York, where I lived for many years, I attended worship services where the ELCA bishop wore a miter and carried a crozier.  

For what it's worth, which is not much, I personally am not troubled in the least by the use of either the mitre or the crozier.  I simply find it interesting that different groups of Lutherans react very differently to them.

Jim

Jim:

Is there a “tongue in cheek” icon? Having lived 15 miles south of the “Haugeaner” belt of Northern Iowa for 14 years, I know of that about which you speak. I grew up in a Lutheran milieu much more friendly to crosiers at least (miters are more difficult), but I personally have no objections to either symbol and wish that they were more common than they are in the ELCA.

SPS


Title: Re: Election of Bishop in MD-DE Synod Postponed
Post by: James_Gale on December 23, 2009, 01:51:35 AM
Since a crosier is a symbol of jurisdiction, any bishop outside his or her own see should avoid carrying a crosier. I have not seen an ELCA bishop wearing a miter since the earliest days of the ELCA. I am guessing, James, that you are hinting at some facet of local piety or aesthetic that advises against such ancient symbols of episcope?

SPS



Pr. Sabin --

I spend a good deal of time in that part of Minnesota.  Many congregations there come from that segment of the ELCA that has had the greatest concerns about the role of bishops under CCM.  

In New York, where I lived for many years, I attended worship services where the ELCA bishop wore a miter and carried a crozier.  

For what it's worth, which is not much, I personally am not troubled in the least by the use of either the mitre or the crozier.  I simply find it interesting that different groups of Lutherans react very differently to them.

Jim

Jim:

Is there a “tongue in cheek” icon? Having lived 15 miles south of the “Haugeaner” belt of Northern Iowa for 14 years, I know of that about which you speak. I grew up in a Lutheran milieu much more friendly to crosiers at least (miters are more difficult), but I personally have no objections to either symbol and wish that they were more common than they are in the ELCA.

SPS


Bishop Rimbo in full regalia:  http://www.mnys.org/gallery-10-08/content/REW_20081012_565_large.html (http://www.mnys.org/gallery-10-08/content/REW_20081012_565_large.html).
Title: Re: Election of Bishop in MD-DE Synod Postponed
Post by: PrSabin on December 23, 2009, 01:58:22 AM
Hmmmm… It seems that such events are hushed up in the Mid-west and in California. I thought miters had been suppressed within the first several years of the ELCA. I see I was wrong.

IMHO, the photo portrays a poor choice of miter and the caption a VERY unusual venue for the installation of a Lutheran bishop.

SPS


Title: Re: Election of Bishop in MD-DE Synod Postponed
Post by: Charles_Austin on December 23, 2009, 04:29:27 AM
Pastor Sabin writes (re the picture of Bishop Rimbo's installation):
IMHO, the photo portrays a poor choice of miter and the caption a VERY unusual venue for the installation of a Lutheran bishop.

I comment:
But like in real estate, it's location, location, location. In Bishop Rimbo's territory, those symbols of office are expected, understood and appreciated by the broader community; most of whom would not understand how a bishop could be a bishop if he or she didn't display the symbol of crosier and miter.
As for the location, it was a terrific choice; for there are many who still equate "Lutheran" with "German," and there are large numbers of Jews in Bishop Rimbo's territory. Being installed in a synagogue was a powerful reconciling symbol all around.
There might be other parts of the country where this symbolism and these accoutrements of office would not work. I would cringe at a Lutheran rite that looked like the installation of the executive committee of the Rotary Club, but...
Title: Re: Election of Bishop in MD-DE Synod Postponed
Post by: Kevin C. on December 23, 2009, 07:52:56 AM
Bishop Rimbo used to be in our synod, S E Michigan.  He dressed a lot that like when he was here.


BTW, on the right side of the picture is Bishop Claire Burkat from the SE Pennsylvania synod.  I've talked with her a couple of times and she prayed with me at a time when I really needed it.  That day God sent her to me.  She had previously experienced the same things I was going through.

George, do you know her?  I wondered since you are from Pennsylvania.

Kevin
Title: Re: Election of Bishop in MD-DE Synod Postponed
Post by: Dennis on December 23, 2009, 07:59:08 AM
I think the crozier or shepherd's staff is an appropriate symbol of the bishop's office, as is the pectoral cross.  A cope is not an episcopal vestment, per se. The Metro DC Bishop also wears a mitre.  IMHO, I don't think the mitre fits in American Lutheranism, before or after CCM or the ELCA merger, whatever.  It has never been part of our traditions, especially considering that the official use of the title bishop goes back only to the early 1980s.  If a Lutheran bishop is going to wear a mitre, perhaps the shorter Scandinavian version is better.  I agree that Bishop Rimbo's mitre is too high.  Also, IMHO, mitres do not look good on women bishops.  So, I say, let's do without them.
Title: Re: Election of Bishop in MD-DE Synod Postponed
Post by: Scott6 on December 23, 2009, 08:16:31 AM
Also, IMHO, mitres do not look good on women bishops.  So, I say, let's do without them.

The mitres?  Or...

;)
Title: Re: Election of Bishop in MD-DE Synod Postponed
Post by: MaddogLutheran on December 23, 2009, 08:38:16 AM
Bishop Rimbo used to be in our synod, S E Michigan.  He dressed a lot that like when he was here.

BTW, on the right side of the picture is Bishop Claire Burkat from the SE Pennsylvania synod.  I've talked with her a couple of times and she prayed with me at a time when I really needed it.  That day God sent her to me.  She had previously experienced the same things I was going through.

George, do you know her?  I wondered since you are from Pennsylvania.
She is my bishop, and I've "met" her once, briefly, when she installed our newly ordained associate pastor at our Sunday Vespers.  Glad to hear she was helpful to you in your hour of need.  From that, you probably know more about her than I do.  I think she just finished her first year (or two?) in office.  BTW, Bp. Burkat does wield  ::) a crozier, but I don't recall a mitre...

Sterling Spatz
Title: Re: Election of Bishop in MD-DE Synod Postponed
Post by: Dissenter on December 23, 2009, 08:41:41 AM
I think the crozier or shepherd's staff is an appropriate symbol of the bishop's office, as is the pectoral cross.  A cope is not an episcopal vestment, per se.

  The staff, of course, is a reminder of the shepherd's task; guiding the flock.  Interesting how we've retained the staff as a symbol, but dropped the rod. One was used for guiding, the other for protecting - driving away that which would harm the flock.  

 So, fancy high-hat or not,  maybe we should have taken away their croziers and demanded they spend more time protecting the church from secular gay foundations.  Just a thought.
Title: Re: Election of Bishop in MD-DE Synod Postponed
Post by: RayToy on December 23, 2009, 09:42:32 AM
It's the bishop!   ;D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OpX3XdU-V9o&feature=related
Title: Re: Election of Bishop in MD-DE Synod Postponed
Post by: racin_jason on December 23, 2009, 10:08:46 AM
Hmmmm… It seems that such events are hushed up in the Mid-west and in California. I thought miters had been suppressed within the first several years of the ELCA. I see I was wrong.

IMHO, the photo portrays a poor choice of miter and the caption a VERY unusual venue for the installation of a Lutheran bishop.

SPS




Agreed...and they wonder why some in the LCMS accuse us of being syncretists.
Title: Re: Election of Bishop in MD-DE Synod Postponed
Post by: Charles_Austin on December 23, 2009, 10:16:46 AM
RJ writes:
Agreed...and they wonder why some in the LCMS accuse us of being syncretists.

I ponder:
What could possibly be syncretistic about using a synagogue for a service?
Title: Re: Election of Bishop in MD-DE Synod Postponed
Post by: FatherWilliam57 on December 23, 2009, 10:17:05 AM
What I want to know is, Why on earth does the Delaware-Maryland Synod have its synod assembly in Pennsylvania?

I did my internship in the Delaware-Maryland Synod.  Two reasons:  lower costs, but more importantly, it is one of the ways that synod "connects" with the ELCA college they relate to and support.  In SW PA Synod, as George pointed out, we have our assemblies at Thiel College.  Same rationale:  lower costs, but more important, the ELCA college to which we relate.  (Besides, a high percentage of our pastors are Thiel graduates.  In fact, I attended my first synod convention as a delegate in the LCA from the Western Pennsylvania-West Virginia Synod in 1972.  That convention began on my fifteenth birthday...I had just been confirmed the week before on Pentecost!  I was impressed and eventually attended Thiel when the time came for college.)
Title: Re: Election of Bishop in MD-DE Synod Postponed
Post by: George Erdner on December 23, 2009, 10:26:12 AM
George, do you know her?  I wondered since you are from Pennsylvania.

Kevin

I am from Western Pennsylvania. To those of us from Pittsburgh, the other side of the state might as well be on the far side of the moon.
Title: Re: Election of Bishop in MD-DE Synod Postponed
Post by: MaddogLutheran on December 23, 2009, 10:40:00 AM
Hmmmm… It seems that such events are hushed up in the Mid-west and in California. I thought miters had been suppressed within the first several years of the ELCA. I see I was wrong.

IMHO, the photo portrays a poor choice of miter and the caption a VERY unusual venue for the installation of a Lutheran bishop.

SPS

Agreed...and they wonder why some in the LCMS accuse us of being syncretists.
Maybe I'm misunderstanding you, but that seems a bit off-target.  Assuming I understood correctly from the other picture captions that it was in a synagogue...didn't the early church worship in similar places?

What might seem harder, and in fact has been happening in my church recently, is that a Jewish Reformed congregation uses our sanctuary during their High Holy days, as they are proceeding with a buildling program.  Ours is a rather sparse space, and while I assume we remove the paraments and candlesticks (never been there before or during), the large wooden cross up on the wall behind the permanent (i.e. unmovable) altar doesn't go anywhere, and I have a hard time imagining either covered/hidden.  (Unless of course I'm totally mistaken and they use our fellowship hall instead.)
Title: Re: Election of Bishop in MD-DE Synod Postponed
Post by: MaddogLutheran on December 23, 2009, 10:41:15 AM
RJ writes:
Agreed...and they wonder why some in the LCMS accuse us of being syncretists.

I ponder:
What could possibly be syncretistic about using a synagogue for a service?
I'm with you there, Pr. Austin...see my post.
Title: Re: Election of Bishop in MD-DE Synod Postponed
Post by: Charles_Austin on December 23, 2009, 11:01:19 AM
Mike Gehlhausen writes:
There are reasons as you show in your other post that a Christian congregation might have to use a synagogue or a Jewish congregation a Christian church.
However, doing so does suggest that the faiths are compatible, and when such use is done, it must be addressed that they are not, and the reasons why this is going on given so that stumbling blocks are not placed before weak brothers and sisters.

I comment:
Using another's building does not suggest that the "faiths are compatible." Only a fool would draw that drastic conclusion. "Oh, the Lutherans had a service in a synagogue; so Lutherans and Jews must be the same!" Who would think that way?
Title: Re: Election of Bishop in MD-DE Synod Postponed
Post by: James_Gale on December 23, 2009, 11:03:08 AM
RJ writes:
Agreed...and they wonder why some in the LCMS accuse us of being syncretists.

I ponder:
What could possibly be syncretistic about using a synagogue for a service?
I'm with you there, Pr. Austin...see my post.

I am as well.  

One might argue against the use of a synagogue, but not on the basis of syncretism.  This was not a joint service.  There was no joint prayer.  

This does raise a more general question.  What space may Lutherans properly use for worship, particularly when no local Lutheran congregation has facilities that are large enough for a particular service?
Title: Re: Election of Bishop in MD-DE Synod Postponed
Post by: Mike Bennett on December 23, 2009, 11:06:42 AM
Only a fool would draw that drastic conclusion.

This is the guy who was so offended by the posts on Richard's new "Snark" topic that he demanded it be closed.  Immediately.   ::)
Title: Re: Election of Bishop in MD-DE Synod Postponed
Post by: olarmy02 on December 23, 2009, 11:11:06 AM
Mike Gehlhausen writes:
There are reasons as you show in your other post that a Christian congregation might have to use a synagogue or a Jewish congregation a Christian church.
However, doing so does suggest that the faiths are compatible, and when such use is done, it must be addressed that they are not, and the reasons why this is going on given so that stumbling blocks are not placed before weak brothers and sisters.

I comment:
Using another's building does not suggest that the "faiths are compatible." Only a fool would draw that drastic conclusion. "Oh, the Lutherans had a service in a synagogue; so Lutherans and Jews must be the same!" Who would think that way?

One should not underestimate the logic of fools.

I would be interested in knowing what the members of the synagogue thought.  I am assuming it is not an orthodox synagogue.  Quite a striking facility though.  Maybe the Synod couldn't afford Yankee Stadium or St. Patricks Cathedral?  As I scrolled through the photos did I notice a familiar Missouri face in attendance?
Title: Re: Election of Bishop in MD-DE Synod Postponed
Post by: James_Gale on December 23, 2009, 11:11:37 AM
RJ writes:
Agreed...and they wonder why some in the LCMS accuse us of being syncretists.

I ponder:
What could possibly be syncretistic about using a synagogue for a service?
I'm with you there, Pr. Austin...see my post.

I'm not with him.

There are reasons as you show in your other post that a Christian congregation might have to use a synagogue or a Jewish congregation a Christian church.

However, doing so does suggest that the faiths are compatible, and when such use is done, it must be addressed that they are not, and the reasons why this is going on given so that stumbling blocks are not placed before weak brothers and sisters.

Therefore, there are indeed reasons to consider that using a synagogue for a Christian service may be perceived as syncretism.

Furthermore, I would think that there was ample opportunity to perform the installation of a Lutheran bishop in a Lutheran church. Performing it then instead in a Jewish synagogue shows intention to do so and not a concession caused by need.

Mike

Mike --

The MNYS does not include any congregations with facilities that are large enough and that otherwise are suitable for a service such as the installation of the bishop.  It therefore needed to look elsewhere.

Would you have been concerned if the MNYS instead used St. Patrick's Cathedral (RC)?  How about St. Bart's or St. Thomas or St. John the Divine (Episcopalian)?  Or Madison Avenue Presbyterian?  Or space at Concordia College in Bronxville?

Should MNYS instead have limited itself to the use of purely secular buildings, such as a Broadway Theater?

You can argue the propriety of any of these choices.  

In any case, I am quite sure that if you had attended Bp. Rimbo's installation, you would have had no doubt that you were attending a Lutheran service.  (Aspects of the liturgy would have driven you crazy, I suspect, but that's another issue not related to where the service took place.)

Jim
Title: Re: Election of Bishop in MD-DE Synod Postponed
Post by: Dissenter on December 23, 2009, 11:17:42 AM

  I am assuming it is not an orthodox synagogue.  

   Nor was the Rabbi likely up to speed on the ELCA's statements against Israel.
Title: Re: Election of Bishop in MD-DE Synod Postponed
Post by: Kevin C. on December 23, 2009, 11:27:18 AM
I'm with Charles on this one, too.

Maybe what we are portraying is that we can get along without believing the same things.

I've got another question.  It seems that many are upset with the ELCA's stand on Israel/Palestinian relations.

I think we should support both sides in coming to an agreement so they may live together.

However, are the people who are against the ELCA's stand just pro-Israel or do you see that Israel has also been at fault?

Kevin
Title: Re: Election of Bishop in MD-DE Synod Postponed
Post by: Kevin C. on December 23, 2009, 11:28:37 AM
Mike, do you believe that Jews are going to have eternal damnation?

Kevin
Title: Re: Election of Bishop in MD-DE Synod Postponed
Post by: olarmy02 on December 23, 2009, 11:38:58 AM
Mike, do you believe that Jews are going to have eternal damnation?

Kevin

Yes.

Mike

Of course they could always fulfill the law perfectly, or accept Yeshua...only one of those is possible.
Title: Re: Election of Bishop in MD-DE Synod Postponed
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on December 23, 2009, 11:41:20 AM
RJ writes:
Agreed...and they wonder why some in the LCMS accuse us of being syncretists.

I ponder:
What could possibly be syncretistic about using a synagogue for a service?
At least it is a space that has been dedicated to the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob -- the God who is also revealed to us in the Word-became-flesh Jesus of Nazareth. How many synods and churchwide assemblies have worship services in hotel ballrooms? To whom are those spaces dedicated? (The owners of the hotel may not be Christian, e.g., the Mormons.)
Title: Re: Election of Bishop in MD-DE Synod Postponed
Post by: Dissenter on December 23, 2009, 11:42:35 AM
Mike, do you believe that Jews are going to have eternal damnation?

Kevin

 Given our history, I believe it will be many centuries before Lutherans have earned the right to even ask the question.
Title: Re: Election of Bishop in MD-DE Synod Postponed
Post by: Kevin C. on December 23, 2009, 11:45:01 AM
I'm always confused on the Jewish issue.  I realize that they don't believe in Jesus as the Son of God.

But aren't they God's chosen people?

Kevin
Title: Re: Election of Bishop in MD-DE Synod Postponed
Post by: Mike Bennett on December 23, 2009, 12:23:26 PM
Mike, do you believe that Jews are going to have eternal damnation?

Kevin

 Given our history, I believe it will be many centuries before Lutherans have earned the right to even ask the question.

Please elaborate.
Title: Re: Election of Bishop in MD-DE Synod Postponed
Post by: James_Gale on December 23, 2009, 12:25:46 PM
I'm always confused on the Jewish issue.  I realize that they don't believe in Jesus as the Son of God.

But aren't they God's chosen people?

Kevin

23When they had appointed a day for him, they came to him at his lodging in greater numbers. From morning till evening he expounded to them, testifying to the kingdom of God and trying to convince them about Jesus both from the Law of Moses and from the Prophets. 24And some were convinced by what he said, but others disbelieved. 25And disagreeing among themselves, they departed after Paul had made one statement: "The Holy Spirit was right in saying to your fathers through Isaiah the prophet:
 26 "'Go to this people, and say, You will indeed hear but never understand,
   and you will indeed see but never perceive.
27 For this people’s heart has grown dull,
   and with their ears they can barely hear,
   and their eyes they have closed;
lest they should see with their eyes
   and hear with their ears
and understand with their heart
   and turn, and I would heal them.'

 28Therefore let it be known to you that this salvation of God has been sent to the Gentiles; they will listen." Acts 28:23-28

Mike

Romans 11:25-35

All Israel Will Be Saved

 25 I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:
   "The deliverer will come from Zion;
      he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.
 27 And this is my covenant with them
      when I take away their sins."
 28 As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies on your account; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, 29 for God's gifts and his call are irrevocable. 30 Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, 31 so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now receive mercy as a result of God's mercy to you. 32 For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

Doxology

 33 Oh, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God!
      How unsearchable his judgments,
      and his paths beyond tracing out!
 34 "Who has known the mind of the Lord?
      Or who has been his counselor?"
 35 "Who has ever given to God,
      that God should repay him?"
Title: Re: Election of Bishop in MD-DE Synod Postponed
Post by: James_Gale on December 23, 2009, 12:32:36 PM
Mike, do you believe that Jews are going to have eternal damnation?

Kevin

 Given our history, I believe it will be many centuries before Lutherans have earned the right to even ask the question.

Please elaborate.

Many "Lutherans" in Germany justified what became the Holocaust by arguing that Jews are subject to eternal damnation for what they did to Jesus. 

That aside, it is always presumptuous for us to declare that any person or group of persons will face eternal damnation.  We would be well counseled to leave this to God.
Title: Re: Election of Bishop in MD-DE Synod Postponed
Post by: racin_jason on December 23, 2009, 12:39:50 PM
The Lutherans in New York have a problem in that there isn't an ELCA church large enough to hold a proper installation of a Bishop, so they are forced to compromise from the start.

When Bishop Rimbo's installation was scheduled we discussed here whether or not a synogogue is fitting and appropriate, I remain unconvinced...but the other thing is that oftentimes synod offices are limited to certain venues due to cost. There are viable options in NYC, there's always St. Bart's on Park Avenue or even Riverside.
Title: Re: Election of Bishop in MD-DE Synod Postponed
Post by: Mike Bennett on December 23, 2009, 12:40:08 PM
Mike, do you believe that Jews are going to have eternal damnation?

Kevin

 Given our history, I believe it will be many centuries before Lutherans have earned the right to even ask the question.

Please elaborate.

Many "Lutherans" in Germany justified what became the Holocaust by arguing that Jews are subject to eternal damnation for what they did to Jesus. 

That aside, it is always presumptuous for us to declare that any person or group of persons will face eternal damnation.  We would be well counseled to leave this to God.

I'm not sure that's an answer to my question about the statement that was made.  

+ Your use of quotation marks when referring to "Lutherans" in Germany seems to distinguish them in some subtle way from Lutherans.  
+ The statement that I asked about refers obliquly to some special historic reason why Lutherans are not entitled to ask, so your general caution about presumptuousness seems to be off-point.

Maybe Dissenter can elaborate on what he meant.
Title: Re: Election of Bishop in MD-DE Synod Postponed
Post by: James_Gale on December 23, 2009, 12:55:19 PM
Mike, do you believe that Jews are going to have eternal damnation?

Kevin

 Given our history, I believe it will be many centuries before Lutherans have earned the right to even ask the question.

Please elaborate.

Many "Lutherans" in Germany justified what became the Holocaust by arguing that Jews are subject to eternal damnation for what they did to Jesus. 

That aside, it is always presumptuous for us to declare that any person or group of persons will face eternal damnation.  We would be well counseled to leave this to God.

I'm not sure that's an answer to my question about the statement that was made.  

+ Your use of quotation marks when referring to "Lutherans" in Germany seems to distinguish them in some subtle way from Lutherans.  
+ The statement that I asked about refers obliquly to some special historic reason why Lutherans are not entitled to ask, so your general caution about presumptuousness seems to be off-point.

Maybe Dissenter can elaborate on what he meant.

Mike --

You are quite right that Dissenter can speak for himself.

However, the link is clear between the Holocaust and the teaching of some "Lutherans" and other "Christians" that Jews are condemned to eternal damnation for the cruelty shown by their ancestors to Jesus.  The link would not have existed if Christians had left the business of judging to God.  Perhaps more Christians would have been inclined to resist.

I used the quotation marks because I view the declaration that the Jews are damned to be outside the clear teaching of the orthodox Christian faith.  The use of quotation marks may not have been the best way to make my point.  But that is what I meant.

Jim
Title: Re: Election of Bishop in MD-DE Synod Postponed
Post by: olarmy02 on December 23, 2009, 01:03:03 PM
I'm always confused on the Jewish issue.  I realize that they don't believe in Jesus as the Son of God.

But aren't they God's chosen people?

Kevin

23When they had appointed a day for him, they came to him at his lodging in greater numbers. From morning till evening he expounded to them, testifying to the kingdom of God and trying to convince them about Jesus both from the Law of Moses and from the Prophets. 24And some were convinced by what he said, but others disbelieved. 25And disagreeing among themselves, they departed after Paul had made one statement: "The Holy Spirit was right in saying to your fathers through Isaiah the prophet:
 26 "'Go to this people, and say, You will indeed hear but never understand,
   and you will indeed see but never perceive.
27 For this people’s heart has grown dull,
   and with their ears they can barely hear,
   and their eyes they have closed;
lest they should see with their eyes
   and hear with their ears
and understand with their heart
   and turn, and I would heal them.'

 28Therefore let it be known to you that this salvation of God has been sent to the Gentiles; they will listen." Acts 28:23-28

Mike

Romans 11:25-35

All Israel Will Be Saved

 25 I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:
   "The deliverer will come from Zion;
      he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.
 27 And this is my covenant with them
      when I take away their sins."
 28 As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies on your account; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, 29 for God's gifts and his call are irrevocable. 30 Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, 31 so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now receive mercy as a result of God's mercy to you. 32 For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

Doxology

 33 Oh, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God!
      How unsearchable his judgments,
      and his paths beyond tracing out!
 34 "Who has known the mind of the Lord?
      Or who has been his counselor?"
 35 "Who has ever given to God,
      that God should repay him?"


What about a bit earlier in verse 14 if somehow I might move to jealousy my fellow countrymen and save some of them.  Or verse 23 and they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in; for God is able to graft them in again.

Might be fun section to work with.  Where is "Professor" Yakimow?
Title: Re: Election of Bishop in MD-DE Synod Postponed
Post by: Richard Johnson on December 23, 2009, 01:07:29 PM
The Lutherans in New York have a problem in that there isn't an ELCA church large enough to hold a proper installation of a Bishop, so they are forced to compromise from the start.

When Bishop Rimbo's installation was scheduled we discussed here whether or not a synogogue is fitting and appropriate, I remain unconvinced...but the other thing is that oftentimes synod offices are limited to certain venues due to cost. There are viable options in NYC, there's always St. Bart's on Park Avenue or even Riverside.

A little 8th commandment alert: Could it be possible that the planners, in putting together this service, tried a variety of other venues but that none was available on the date that was required? If one wasn't involved in the planning, it seems uncharitable for one to say, "Well, they could have had it there or there or there."
Title: Re: Election of Bishop in MD-DE Synod Postponed
Post by: George Erdner on December 23, 2009, 01:16:34 PM
However, the link is clear between the Holocaust and the teaching of some "Lutherans" and other "Christians" that Jews are condemned to eternal damnation for the cruelty shown by their ancestors to Jesus.  The link would not have existed if Christians had left the business of judging to God.  Perhaps more Christians would have been inclined to resist.

I used the quotation marks because I view the declaration that the Jews are damned to be outside the clear teaching of the orthodox Christian faith.  The use of quotation marks may not have been the best way to make my point.  But that is what I meant.

Jim

I use the term "LINO" for the same purpose. It's a shame that adding "INO" to an initial to indicate "Something-or-other In Name Only" isn't more universally accepted. It is certainly a useful shorthand abbreviation.
Title: Re: Election of Bishop in MD-DE Synod Postponed
Post by: MaddogLutheran on December 23, 2009, 01:22:54 PM
The Lutherans in New York have a problem in that there isn't an ELCA church large enough to hold a proper installation of a Bishop, so they are forced to compromise from the start.

When Bishop Rimbo's installation was scheduled we discussed here whether or not a synogogue is fitting and appropriate, I remain unconvinced...but the other thing is that oftentimes synod offices are limited to certain venues due to cost. There are viable options in NYC, there's always St. Bart's on Park Avenue or even Riverside.

A little 8th commandment alert: Could it be possible that the planners, in putting together this service, tried a variety of other venues but that none was available on the date that was required? If one wasn't involved in the planning, it seems uncharitable for one to say, "Well, they could have had it there or there or there."
Thank you, esteemed moderator, for jumping in with your 8th commandment yellow card, as I was thinking the same thing, especially after the turn the conversation took after my previous post (and I waited to cool off!)

Now if it were to be confirmed that the synagogue was chosen to make some kind of "statement" or special accomodation, that would be a horse of a different color.  Or there was a suitable church available (Lutheran or otherwise) at similar cost and convenience, then I would have a problem with this.  But that was not what I understand Pr. Austin (or myself) to be addressing.
Title: Re: Election of Bishop in MD-DE Synod Postponed
Post by: Dissenter on December 23, 2009, 01:32:40 PM
Mike, do you believe that Jews are going to have eternal damnation?

Kevin

 Given our history, I believe it will be many centuries before Lutherans have earned the right to even ask the question.

Please elaborate.

  There is enough (for me) uncertainty in Romans to question whether Jews really need to be our target right now.  As I read Romans Paul didn't understand why all were not embracing the Gospel, but he clearly states the coming of Christ does not negate the promises God has made to his people.

  That said, we Lutherans have enough Jewish blood on our hands that I think it beyond distasteful to even ask the question of Jewish salvation.  A trip through Yad Vashem last June in Jerusalem helped seal the deal for me personally. I'm not a very emotionally demonstrative fellow, but as I walked through that place of remembrance, reflecting on how Catholic and Lutheran Germans could have let it happen, it made me weep.

I also find most ELCA releases on Israel equally distasteful, but that's for another time.
Title: Re: Election of Bishop in MD-DE Synod Postponed
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on December 23, 2009, 01:44:35 PM
The Lutherans in New York have a problem in that there isn't an ELCA church large enough to hold a proper installation of a Bishop, so they are forced to compromise from the start.

When Bishop Rimbo's installation was scheduled we discussed here whether or not a synogogue is fitting and appropriate, I remain unconvinced...but the other thing is that oftentimes synod offices are limited to certain venues due to cost. There are viable options in NYC, there's always St. Bart's on Park Avenue or even Riverside.

A little 8th commandment alert: Could it be possible that the planners, in putting together this service, tried a variety of other venues but that none was available on the date that was required? If one wasn't involved in the planning, it seems uncharitable for one to say, "Well, they could have had it there or there or there."
And also for the price they were able to pay.
Title: Re: Election of Bishop in MD-DE Synod Postponed
Post by: racin_jason on December 23, 2009, 01:54:13 PM
The Lutherans in New York have a problem in that there isn't an ELCA church large enough to hold a proper installation of a Bishop, so they are forced to compromise from the start.

When Bishop Rimbo's installation was scheduled we discussed here whether or not a synogogue is fitting and appropriate, I remain unconvinced...but the other thing is that oftentimes synod offices are limited to certain venues due to cost. There are viable options in NYC, there's always St. Bart's on Park Avenue or even Riverside.

A little 8th commandment alert: Could it be possible that the planners, in putting together this service, tried a variety of other venues but that none was available on the date that was required? If one wasn't involved in the planning, it seems uncharitable for one to say, "Well, they could have had it there or there or there."

The bolded section was an attempt at honoring the 8th commandment, but looking back it does come across as half-hearted. Synod functions are not simple to plan....it isn't "your church x 7". There are complications galore.  We here in the south held our last installation at a Methodist church. The major sticking point was communion and whether or not the Lutherans could use alchoholic wine. They relented, but it was after considerable deliberation.



Title: Re: Election of Bishop in MD-DE Synod Postponed
Post by: olarmy02 on December 23, 2009, 01:59:40 PM
Mike, do you believe that Jews are going to have eternal damnation?

Kevin

 Given our history, I believe it will be many centuries before Lutherans have earned the right to even ask the question.

Please elaborate.

  There is enough (for me) uncertainty in Romans to question whether Jews really need to be our target right now.  As I read Romans Paul didn't understand why all were not embracing the Gospel, but he clearly states the coming of Christ does not negate the promises God has made to his people.

  That said, we Lutherans have enough Jewish blood on our hands that I think it beyond distasteful to even ask the question of Jewish salvation.  A trip through Yad Vashem last June in Jerusalem helped seal the deal for me personally. I'm not a very emotionally demonstrative fellow, but as I walked through that place of remembrance, reflecting on how Catholic and Lutheran Germans could have let it happen, it made me weep.

I also find most ELCA releases on Israel equally distasteful, but that's for another time.

I definitely wouldn't use the term target, but I would say the Gospel needs to be proclaimed...I seem to recall something about "to the Jew first".  As for Yad Vashem, it is on the list of places to see/experience.  Luther was a man and he erred with his anti-Jewish writings later in life, but Mom (maiden name Goodman) doesn't hold that against me.  ;)  The ELCA and all the rest of the mainline denominations have distasteful policies regarding Israel.  If you are interested in Lutheran evangelism to Jews, try Apple of His Ministries (an LCMS ministry, shhhhh :-X)
Title: Re: Election of Bishop in MD-DE Synod Postponed
Post by: Dissenter on December 23, 2009, 02:12:34 PM

I definitely wouldn't use the term target, but I would say the Gospel needs to be proclaimed...

  I hear you,  I'm just in a different place. I came back from Israel with mezuzahs for all my Jewish friends.
Title: Re: Election of Bishop in MD-DE Synod Postponed
Post by: James_Gale on December 23, 2009, 02:22:46 PM

I definitely wouldn't use the term target, but I would say the Gospel needs to be proclaimed...

  I hear you,  I'm just in a different place. I came back from Israel with mezuzahs for all my Jewish friends.

I'm where you are on this one.
Title: Re: Election of Bishop in MD-DE Synod Postponed
Post by: Dissenter on December 23, 2009, 02:28:28 PM

Now if it were to be confirmed that the synagogue was chosen to make some kind of "statement" or special accomodation, that would be a horse of a different color. 

  When I was in PA I had an intern from Germany.  Her interpersonal skills were kind of a disaster, but she was a pretty sharp young lady.  She once told me she wanted to meet some Jews during her time in the US.

 I mentioned it to a Rabbi friend of mine and it quickly escalated into her attending his Talmud class.  She read and spoke Hebrew very well and so off she went to a weekly class.  Her last class, before packing up to go home, the rest of the group gave her a gift; a mazuzah. An elderly woman, a tattooed holocaust survivor, told Christiana how much it had meant to her that a young. blond German Lutheran would be willing to learn Talmud from her Rabbi.  Tears all around.  

 Even if there was an agenda for having a Lutheran Bishop installed in a synagogue, I'm fairly sure the symbolism was not lost on the Rabbi's congregation.

 
Title: Re: Election of Bishop in MD-DE Synod Postponed
Post by: Mike Bennett on December 23, 2009, 02:32:31 PM

  That said, we Lutherans have enough Jewish blood on our hands that I think it beyond distasteful to even ask the question of Jewish salvation.  A trip through Yad Vashem last June in Jerusalem helped seal the deal for me personally. I'm not a very emotionally demonstrative fellow, but as I walked through that place of remembrance, reflecting on how Catholic and Lutheran Germans could have let it happen, it made me weep.


The holocaust was horrible.  But it isn't clear to me that Lutherans are/were the culpable parties in some special way, any more than Lutherans are/were especially praiseworthy because of the rescue of the Danish Jews by the overwhelminly Lutheran Danish population, who responded to Nazi demands to turn in their Jews by spiriting them away to neutral (and Lutheran) Sweden instead.

We have a newish holocaust museum here in Skokie, two miles from where I work.  One day I need to stop in and do some weeping of my own.  Perhaps during my at-home vacation next week.
Title: Re: Election of Bishop in MD-DE Synod Postponed
Post by: Richard Johnson on December 23, 2009, 02:55:43 PM
I do find that incredibly strange, but it is apparently the truth.


No, Mike, it isn't apparently the truth. But it is possibly the truth, and the point was that one shouldn't make assumptions when one doesn't really know the truth.

Of course when else do we make assumptions . . .  ;)
Title: Re: Election of Bishop in MD-DE Synod Postponed
Post by: olarmy02 on December 23, 2009, 02:58:13 PM

  That said, we Lutherans have enough Jewish blood on our hands that I think it beyond distasteful to even ask the question of Jewish salvation.  A trip through Yad Vashem last June in Jerusalem helped seal the deal for me personally. I'm not a very emotionally demonstrative fellow, but as I walked through that place of remembrance, reflecting on how Catholic and Lutheran Germans could have let it happen, it made me weep.


The holocaust was horrible.  But it isn't clear to me that Lutherans are/were the culpable parties in some special way, any more than Lutherans are/were especially praiseworthy because of the rescue of the Danish Jews by the overwhelminly Lutheran Danish population, who responded to Nazi demands to turn in their Jews by spiriting them away to neutral (and Lutheran) Sweden instead.

We have a newish holocaust museum here in Skokie, two miles from where I work.  One day I need to stop in and do some weeping of my own.  Perhaps during my at-home vacation next week.

Plus the American Lutherans that fought in the US Army against the enemy and liberated concentration camps.
Title: Re: Election of Bishop in MD-DE Synod Postponed
Post by: Dissenter on December 23, 2009, 03:12:28 PM

Plus the American Lutherans that fought in the US Army against the enemy and liberated concentration camps.

Yup.  My old man was a medic in the European theater. Never talked about the experience, but I'm pretty sure that's what got him drinking and on a downward spiral.  My wife's uncle was made a POW at the Battle of the Bulge. He never talked about it, but decided to write a book two years before he died. My uncle started the war as a diver salvaging ships in Pearl Harbor, became a gunner's mate and had three ships sunk out from under him.  The Navy let him go after the last one.

But to a Jew, I'm not so sure those things yet outweigh their many years of history at the hands of Christians.  Just so we're clear, two years ago I baptized a converting Jew and may have another one in a few months.  They're simply not my target.

Title: Re: Election of Bishop in MD-DE Synod Postponed
Post by: Charles_Austin on December 23, 2009, 03:17:43 PM
Everyone should read Constantine's Sword: the Church and the Jews by James Carroll before waxing all eloquent about how some Christians helped the Jews during the Holocaust. Yes, some did, but...
Title: Re: Election of Bishop in MD-DE Synod Postponed
Post by: GoCubsGo on December 23, 2009, 03:25:18 PM
The Lutherans in New York have a problem in that there isn't an ELCA church large enough to hold a proper installation of a Bishop, so they are forced to compromise from the start.

When Bishop Rimbo's installation was scheduled we discussed here whether or not a synogogue is fitting and appropriate, I remain unconvinced...but the other thing is that oftentimes synod offices are limited to certain venues due to cost. There are viable options in NYC, there's always St. Bart's on Park Avenue or even Riverside.
A little 8th commandment alert: Could it be possible that the planners, in putting together this service, tried a variety of other venues but that none was available on the date that was required? If one wasn't involved in the planning, it seems uncharitable for one to say, "Well, they could have had it there or there or there."
The bolded section was an attempt at honoring the 8th commandment, but looking back it does come across as half-hearted. Synod functions are not simple to plan....it isn't "your church x 7". There are complications galore.  We here in the south held our last installation at a Methodist church. The major sticking point was communion and whether or not the Lutherans could use alchoholic wine. They relented, but it was after considerable deliberation.
As the ELCA struggles with the consequences of CWA 2009 it seems to me that finding a large enough venue may not be such a problem.  It may be that bishops installation are attended by so few ELCA Lutherans that a larger ELCA parish may be quite large enough.
Title: Re: Election of Bishop in MD-DE Synod Postponed
Post by: olarmy02 on December 23, 2009, 03:38:52 PM
Everyone should read Constantine's Sword: the Church and the Jews by James Carroll before waxing all eloquent about how some Christians helped the Jews during the Holocaust. Yes, some did, but...

Not waxing, just trying to make the point that not every Lutheran was popping open cans of zyklon-b, and that the tragedy of the Shoah should not diminish our evangelism to the Jews.  It should, however, tailor our methods given the sensitivity of the situation.

Pr. Austin, thank you for the suggestion.  I am always up for a good read, I'll check it out.
Title: Re: Election of Bishop in MD-DE Synod Postponed
Post by: Kevin C. on December 23, 2009, 04:44:25 PM
Dissenter wrote:

Quote
That said, we Lutherans have enough Jewish blood on our hands that I think it beyond distasteful to even ask the question of Jewish salvation.

I sure did  not mean any disrespect or distastefullness in asking the question.  I asked it in a response to Mike G.'s post.

I'm sorry if I offended anyone.  I just always was taught that the Jews were God's chosen people and would be saved.

Kevin
Title: Re: Election of Bishop in MD-DE Synod Postponed
Post by: MMH on December 23, 2009, 04:51:14 PM
To get this back on track-

According to the Articles, I would have had a vote, even though I am no longer a member of the ELCA.  Imagine the fun a Roman Catholic could have in deliberating on the Synodical bishop.  The Old Adam in me likes to think I scared them into changing the date.  There is no emoticon for baring fangs and growling in mock fearsomeness.  I know that singly, that I did not really hit the radar. But if there are a few more like me, then I can see a rational reason for postponing.  

It will be interesting to see which way the Synod tips.  They had voted to go RiC then sobered up and recanted.  I also suspect that there are some key congregations that don't necessarily see the ELCA brand as necessary for their ability to do mission and ministry on the local level nor the only means to be part of the larger Church.  Also, the folks who wish to bring on the pansexual Ragnarok will be organizing.  Waiting to June gives them more time.
Title: Re: Election of Bishop in MD-DE Synod Postponed
Post by: Pastor Schuster on December 26, 2009, 09:39:12 PM
What I want to know is, Why on earth does the Delaware-Maryland Synod have its synod assembly in Pennsylvania?

I did my internship in the Delaware-Maryland Synod.  Two reasons:  lower costs, but more importantly, it is one of the ways that synod "connects" with the ELCA college they relate to and support.  In SW PA Synod, as George pointed out, we have our assemblies at Thiel College.  Same rationale:  lower costs, but more important, the ELCA college to which we relate.  (Besides, a high percentage of our pastors are Thiel graduates.  In fact, I attended my first synod convention as a delegate in the LCA from the Western Pennsylvania-West Virginia Synod in 1972.  That convention began on my fifteenth birthday...I had just been confirmed the week before on Pentecost!  I was impressed and eventually attended Thiel when the time came for college.)

No, these are not the reasons. Delaware-Maryland is my home synod. The synod assembly is alternately held at the Eisenhower Conference Center in Gettysburg and/or Gettysburg College, and the University of Delaware. These are the only facilities on the territory of the synod that have adequate space for both meetings and worship, and adequate housing for those voting members who need it. Additionally, these venues are chosen so that voting members from the Eastern and Southern areas of the synod do not always have to drive all the way to the northern area every year, and vice-versa.

Big 'duh' here on my part! Gettysburg is of course not within the territory of synod; it does, however, lie a mere 14 miles over the border, and therefore is considered close enough.
Title: Re: Election of Bishop in MD-DE Synod Postponed
Post by: Richard Johnson on December 26, 2009, 09:56:57 PM

No, these are not the reasons. Delaware-Maryland is my home synod. The synod assembly is alternately held at the Eisenhower Conference Center in Gettysburg and/or Gettysburg College, and the University of Delaware. These are the only facilities on the territory of the synod that have adequate space for both meetings and worship, and adequate housing for those voting members who need it.

But that's the whole point. Gettysburg College is not on the territory of the synod.
Title: Re: Election of Bishop in MD-DE Synod Postponed
Post by: Ken Kimball on December 26, 2009, 10:01:28 PM
Similarly the LaCrosse Area Synod meets at Luther College, Decorah, Iowa (NE Iowa Synod) and the SE Iowa synod meets at Wartburg College, Waverly, Iowa (again, NE Iowa Synod).  Unfortunately, merely breathing the air and walking upon the soil of the Northeast Iowa synod does not impart or inculcate orthodoxy.  (If it could we'd bottle it for the rest of the ELCA). 

Ken
Title: Re: Election of Bishop in MD-DE Synod Postponed
Post by: Pastor Schuster on December 26, 2009, 10:56:10 PM
Since a crosier is a symbol of jurisdiction, any bishop outside his or her own see should avoid carrying a crosier.
SPS

Are you sure about this? I had thought that the crozier is a symbol of Office. Here's an anecdotal example that would seem to support the position that the crozier signifies Office and not only jurisdiction:

When my wife and I were seniors at LTSG we supplied at a very small congregation in the western part of the synod. I invited former bishop Knoche to lead worship one Sunday in Advent. He arrived carrying his crozier, which was separated into sections, in a Winchester shotgun case. When queried about this unusual mode of conveyance, the bishop said that he could not take his crozier onto airplanes when it was fully assembled. Consultation with airlines and the FAA produced the suggestion that he use the gun case and have the crozier stowed in the baggage compartment. When asked what would occasion the need for him to take his crozier outside of the synod, he replied, 'Ordinations.'

In a similar vein, I once attended an ordination at Christ Lutheran at Baltimore's Inner Harbor. The ordinand, a son of that congregation, had been called to a church in Virginia. Virginia Synod Bishop Mauney presided at the service, and he carried his crozier during the processional and recessional, and it was in its holder in the chancel during the remainder of the service.

In both of these situations, the crozier was not indicating that the bishop has any jurisdiction outside of his own territory. It was instead indicating that the one carrying it was there to perform a function peculiar to the office of bishop, namely, ordination.

I'll be interested in anyone's input on this issue. 
Title: Re: Election of Bishop in MD-DE Synod Postponed
Post by: J. Thomas Shelley on December 26, 2009, 11:06:12 PM
Anecdotally, I have heard and/or read that one reason why Western Bishops are often pictured with their pectoral crosses tucked in a pocket or behind a suit coat lapel is because they are outside of their jurisdiction when the picture is taken. 

I've never seen that in pictures of assembled Eastern hierarchs.
Title: Re: Election of Bishop in MD-DE Synod Postponed
Post by: Pastor Schuster on December 26, 2009, 11:33:11 PM
Anecdotally, I have heard and/or read that one reason why Western Bishops are often pictured with their pectoral crosses tucked in a pocket or behind a suit coat lapel is because they are outside of their jurisdiction when the picture is taken. 

And I just thought it was so that they didn't get the darned things in their soup!  :D
Title: Re: Election of Bishop in MD-DE Synod Postponed
Post by: Richard Johnson on December 26, 2009, 11:34:32 PM
Anecdotally, I have heard and/or read that one reason why Western Bishops are often pictured with their pectoral crosses tucked in a pocket or behind a suit coat lapel is because they are outside of their jurisdiction when the picture is taken. 

I've never seen that in pictures of assembled Eastern hierarchs.

I've often seen bishops in my synod keep the pectoral cross in their pocket, even within the synod

But then they've never had much jurisdiction even there.  ;D
Title: Re: Election of Bishop in MD-DE Synod Postponed
Post by: Steven Tibbetts on December 26, 2009, 11:38:43 PM
In both of these situations, the crozier was not indicating that the bishop has any jurisdiction outside of his own territory. It was instead indicating that the one carrying it was there to perform a function peculiar to the office of bishop, namely, ordination.


In ELCA polity, the ordination is under the jurisdiction of the ordinand's first call.  Thus, for the ordination service, the Bishop is in his territory.  (It's sort of like a temporary embassy.)

Pax, Steven+
Title: Re: Election of Bishop in MD-DE Synod Postponed
Post by: Pastor Schuster on December 27, 2009, 12:00:35 AM
Thanks for that, Pr. Tibbetts. Very interesting.
Title: Re: Election of Bishop in MD-DE Synod Postponed
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on December 27, 2009, 12:33:19 AM
In both of these situations, the crozier was not indicating that the bishop has any jurisdiction outside of his own territory. It was instead indicating that the one carrying it was there to perform a function peculiar to the office of bishop, namely, ordination.


In ELCA polity, the ordination is under the jurisdiction of the ordinand's first call.  Thus, for the ordination service, the Bishop is in his territory.  (It's sort of like a temporary embassy.)
Although we define synods by geographical areas, we define a bishop's authority as being over the people on the synod's rosters even when they are serving outside of the geographical area. Rostered folks who are called to serve at ELCA offices (or seminaries)  they remain rostered in their previous synods and under that bishop's jurisdiction.
Title: Re: Election of Bishop in MD-DE Synod Postponed
Post by: SteveS on December 27, 2009, 01:05:31 AM
Is the bishop of the Delaware-Maryland Synod outside his territory in Gettysburg?  According to elca.org, Mt. Joy (2615 Taneytown Rd., Gettysburg PA) is a member of the Delaware-Maryland Synod.

http://www.elca.org/ELCA/Search/Find-a-Congregation.aspx#&&congrno=tTOpfFHnjXWDfT1lwiAiJOzkwpJzQlJiJSZgBA%3d%3d (http://www.elca.org/ELCA/Search/Find-a-Congregation.aspx#&&congrno=tTOpfFHnjXWDfT1lwiAiJOzkwpJzQlJiJSZgBA%3d%3d)

It is 3.5 miles from the Eisenhower Hotel and Conference Center.  I think that is close enough.  The New York Giants and Jets play in New Jersey, after all  ;)
Title: Re: Election of Bishop in MD-DE Synod Postponed
Post by: Richard Johnson on December 27, 2009, 09:30:22 AM
Is the bishop of the Delaware-Maryland Synod outside his territory in Gettysburg?  According to elca.org, Mt. Joy (2615 Taneytown Rd., Gettysburg PA) is a member of the Delaware-Maryland Synod.

http://www.elca.org/ELCA/Search/Find-a-Congregation.aspx#&&congrno=tTOpfFHnjXWDfT1lwiAiJOzkwpJzQlJiJSZgBA%3d%3d (http://www.elca.org/ELCA/Search/Find-a-Congregation.aspx#&&congrno=tTOpfFHnjXWDfT1lwiAiJOzkwpJzQlJiJSZgBA%3d%3d)

It is 3.5 miles from the Eisenhower Hotel and Conference Center.  I think that is close enough.  The New York Giants and Jets play in New Jersey, after all  ;)

Interesting. If you go to the synod website, in all the descriptions of the synod it says it serves ELCA congregations in all of Delaware and all of Maryland except the DC area. But if you go to the map of the synod, there's a little blip on the northern border of Maryland that reaches up into Pennsylvania, and apparently includes that one congregation--at least that's the only one I can see. All the other congregations in Gettysburg are in the Lower Susquehanna synod. Anyone know what the story is here?
Title: Re: Election of Bishop in MD-DE Synod Postponed
Post by: MMH on December 27, 2009, 09:51:49 AM
There is, in fact, one congregation that is (was?) part of a two point parish, one in MD the other in PA.  I think it is an accident of geography with no deep meaning.

Interesting bit of HX- the parish south of that 2 point parish, Trinity Taneytown, had its tower used as a relay point to communicate news from the Gettysburg battle field to the War Office in DC.  And the parish to the Southeast of the 2 pointer is one of the few St. mary's in the ELCA. and quite near the Union Mills where various sides watered the troops on the way into Gettysburg,, and where my children splashed and swam in the swimming hole along the Big Pipe Creek, which was to have been Meade's fall back position had he been dislodged from Cemetery Ridge.

Carroll County, MD- a beautiful place- Think the Shire.  And then imagine lots of Hobbits with anger management issues.  ;D
Title: Re: Election of Bishop in MD-DE Synod Postponed
Post by: J. Thomas Shelley on December 27, 2009, 12:46:18 PM
Correct on the DE/MD congregation located in Adams County, Pennsylvania:  It is part of a 2 church parish.  I have no knowledge of how that interstate relationship was created.

Just a conjecture on my part, but it may have been formed around the 1920's.   My congregation was part of a four church Parish which included Bethlehem (Steltz) which is quite literally on the Mason-Dixon line.  The Stetlz church building is in Pennsylvania; the cemetery is in Maryland.

In the 1920's the Pennsylvania legistlature made a blood test for syphallis a requirement for obtaining a Marriage license.  Most of the marriage in the congregation from the 1920's through the 1940's occurred in either the parsonage or edifice of Lazurus Lutheran in Lineboro, Maryland, which as the name implies, is just over the State line.  Similar arrangements doubtelessly developed in other border counties.

The Pennsylvania Dutch were cheap (didn't want the cost of a blood test) and very stubborn (how dare they tell me that I HAVE to get one) so they found a way around it.
Title: Re: Election of Bishop in MD-DE Synod Postponed
Post by: krs1984 on December 27, 2009, 01:49:46 PM
OK being occupied in the holiday and family season I haven't entered into this discussion

Site:

the Site in Gettysburg is used for convience ...housing, location etc.  it is only  a few miles over the border and is accesible to over 70% of the synod congregations if they wish to 'comute' to the site. I always do from Baltimore because my Prius gas costs much less then room rate.

Cancelation:

My congregation would have lost the ability to have any delegates but me because we didn't send any to the Ocean City assembly....nothing was happening big expense....
Also don't praise the 'darn lawyers' for this. Legal eagles canceled this assembly and cost the synod big bucks for the University of Md. Center we had to cancel not to mention mailing etc. We were not happy about the added cost to congregations or synod anyway now we just threw thousands of dollars out the window when the synod was down over $100,000 for the year 2009 to begin with.

Result:  Synod is on hold, Call process are on hold, etc. Old staff still operating, interim bishop. Problems increasing. Maryland although not a hotbed of reaction to the CWA is showing effects of it and the recession. If we fail to elect an orthodox Bishop as we have in the past all hell will likely break loose. There are enough concerned congreations and pastors waiting to see who is elected. Current staff will not push the issue but a new one???
Title: Re: Election of Bishop in MD-DE Synod Postponed
Post by: krs1984 on December 27, 2009, 02:06:16 PM
Oh and Richard

As far as 'holding an assembly at Gettysburg College' forget it.

Since they became 'Lutheran' in history only in the 80's they have never really wanted Lutheran Assemblies when they can get more 'bang for the buck' from sports camps not to mention more 'students'. We went a few times as CPS then Lower Susquehanna after temper tantrums but they un air conditioned us out and turned down a few contracts.

I was a member of the old Central Penn Synod 'Higher Education Committee' two different times in 1979-80 as a youth staffer then after I was ordained in 1985 I was appointed by the Bishop until it ended in 1987 in the merger so my files have old documents related to the 'Church relations of Church Colleges'
Title: Re: Election of Bishop in MD-DE Synod Postponed
Post by: Pastor Schuster on December 27, 2009, 07:25:35 PM
Oh and Richard

As far as 'holding an assembly at Gettysburg College' forget it.

Since they became 'Lutheran' in history only in the 80's they have never really wanted Lutheran Assemblies when they can get more 'bang for the buck' from sports camps not to mention more 'students'. We went a few times as CPS then Lower Susquehanna after temper tantrums but they un air conditioned us out and turned down a few contracts.

Yes and no on this one. Yes, the college has indeed shifted its focus on event booking to sports camps for the reason stated. However, the LSS held two assemblies at the College during this decade, while my wife and I were at the seminary.
Title: Re: Election of Bishop in MD-DE Synod Postponed
Post by: vicarbob on December 27, 2009, 08:15:22 PM
I think the reason Lutheran Synodical Bishops are seen wearing their pectoral cross inside their pockets , they have seen their RC brothers doing it so they figured...Oh that's a bishops thing to do. ;)
I wonder Pr Steve, while you are correct that the ordinant is under the jurisdiction of the Synodical bishop from which the call is issued, jurisdiction involves the particuliar geographical  make-up of the Synod. So it is more a matter of place and not of person.
To take your observation a step further, imagine a bishop for military chaplains carrying his/her crozier across not only the US but internationaly! :o
To the poster, yes the crozier is a symbol of juisdiction and not office.
Title: Re: Election of Bishop in MD-DE Synod Postponed
Post by: FatherWilliam57 on December 28, 2009, 02:40:28 AM
Interesting.  In the SW PA Synod, when a visiting bishop is presiding over a worship service, we have always used the old tradition of "orientation" to designate if it is the local bishop or a visiting bishop, i.e., in procession, when the bishop is inside his own synod, he holds the crozier (the "crook") facing away from him; when he is outside his own diocese, he holds the crozier facing inward.  Likewise, when the crozier is placed in it's stand, the crozier of the local bishop is oriented so the assembly may see the crook in profile, while the crozier of a visiting bishop is placed with the crook rearward so the assembly cannot see the crook.  Just an idiosincracy of our synod?
Title: Re: Election of Bishop in MD-DE Synod Postponed
Post by: vicarbob on December 28, 2009, 09:06:52 AM
That works too!
Title: Re: Election of Bishop in MD-DE Synod Postponed
Post by: Dissenter on December 28, 2009, 10:32:59 AM

Big 'duh' here on my part! Gettysburg is of course not within the territory of synod; it does, however, lie a mere 14 miles over the border, and therefore is considered close enough.

  There was a brief attempt to relocate to Hagerstown, MD, but that was kind of a mini disaster.  I was on synod council at the time and remember the site made a professional presentation, seemed adequate for our needs, and then something happened between booking and showing up.  There weren't enough rooms, a tent had to be rented for worship out in the parking lot,etc.  My favorite memory was being wakened in the night when my wall AC unit started smoking and set off the fire alarm in my room.  It was in the middle of the night and of course there were no other empty rooms available.  Ahhh, the memories...
Title: Re: Election of Bishop in MD-DE Synod Postponed
Post by: PrSabin on December 29, 2009, 03:51:55 AM
Since a crosier is a symbol of jurisdiction, any bishop outside his or her own see should avoid carrying a crosier.
SPS

Are you sure about this? I had thought that the crosier is a symbol of Office. Here's an anecdotal example that would seem to support the position that the crosier signifies Office and not only jurisdiction:


I mean no disrespect to American Lutheran bishops (especially those of the ELCA flavor), but few of them seem to me to be well versed in the traditional niceties of episcopal insignia.

If you observe an Anglican or Roman Catholic liturgy where there are multiple bishops participating, you’ll find that only one carries the crosier. That one is either the ordinary of the place, or on some specific occasions the Metropolitan when in his province. There was sometimes an exception to the territorial rule for ordinations, but then the bishop not in his own diocese would carry the crosier with the crook facing himself (inward) rather than outward.

This is one reason I favor miters for Lutheran bishops as miters are symbols of episcopal office and not of jurisdiction. The same is true of the pectoral cross, but since so many Lutheran pastors also wear a cross, the symbolism is a bit muddy. While I’m picking nits, when vested for the Eucharist, a bishop’s pectoral cross is most properly worn over the alb but under the chasuble. The ring is a middle case in that while a bishop wears it outside his territory, it is customary to receive a new one if a bishop is translated (something forbidden in the ancient canons as it was seen as analogous to divorce) to a new see (or so I believe used to be the case).

SPS

PS: Personally, I cringe at purple clergy shirts but have no problem with purple choir cassocks or piped house cassocks.
Title: Re: Election of Bishop in MD-DE Synod Postponed
Post by: Dissenter on December 29, 2009, 08:10:26 AM

PS: Personally, I cringe at purple clergy shirts but have no problem with purple choir cassocks or piped house cassocks.


 I'd prefer to see a Bishop dressed in jeans, cotton shirt, comfortable shoes and helping a local congregation engage servant evangelism.  Yeah, but I can dream ...
Title: Re: Election of Bishop in MD-DE Synod Postponed
Post by: krs1984 on December 29, 2009, 08:18:30 AM

Quote
Yes and no on this one. Yes, the college has indeed shifted its focus on event booking to sports camps for the reason stated. However, the LSS held two assemblies at the College during this decade, while my wife and I were at the seminary.


Brother Shuster

Trust me when I say those two assemblies were 'under extreme pressure' by Bishop Edmondson to hold them there. They resisted we pushed.
Title: Re: Election of Bishop in MD-DE Synod Postponed
Post by: J. Thomas Shelley on December 29, 2009, 01:11:35 PM

Quote
Yes and no on this one. Yes, the college has indeed shifted its focus on event booking to sports camps for the reason stated. However, the LSS held two assemblies at the College during this decade, while my wife and I were at the seminary.


Brother Shuster

Trust me when I say those two assemblies were 'under extreme pressure' by Bishop Edmondson to hold them there. They resisted we pushed.

The most recent (and last) LSS Assembly at Gettysburg College was in AD 2006; the Assembly at which Bishop Hendrix was deposed by defeat on the final ballot.
Title: Re: Election of Bishop in MD-DE Synod Postponed
Post by: Charles_Austin on December 29, 2009, 01:14:39 PM
And one of the rare times when an ELCA synodical bishop was actually deposed when he or she sought re-election. What was that all about? She was, I believe, a solid traditionalist.
Title: Re: Election of Bishop in MD-DE Synod Postponed
Post by: krs1984 on December 29, 2009, 02:17:35 PM
I believe it was about local issues around the call process
Title: Re: Election of Bishop in MD-DE Synod Postponed
Post by: J. Thomas Shelley on December 29, 2009, 07:00:22 PM
And one of the rare times when an ELCA synodical bishop was actually deposed when he or she sought re-election. What was that all about? She was, I believe, a solid traditionalist.

The overarching election issue was the stagnation in the Call Process; my recollection is that about 45 of the 267 congregations were "In Transition" with an average 18 month transition period.  Congregations and clergy were growing very frustrated at the slow pace.

Also, Bishop Hendrix was very strict in calling retired clergy to task when there was even the appearance ( much less the subtance) of interfering in former congregations.  There was a strong contingent of voting members, predominantly led by the retired clergy who may as well have adopted the slogan of "Anyone But Carol". 

There was certainly a contingent who did not appreciate her orthodox preaching and teaching on matters pertaining to sexuality, but they were not the primary movers.