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ALPB => Your Turn => Topic started by: Mike Bennett on September 03, 2009, 09:59:05 PM

Title: The Lutheran Study Bible
Post by: Mike Bennett on September 03, 2009, 09:59:05 PM
Mine was in my mailbox today.  Didn't have much time this evening to thumb through it, but at first glance it looks very good - very Lutheran. I expect to give it a good workout.  I'd be interested in others' observations and reactions.

Mike Bennett
Title: Re: The Lutheran Study Bible
Post by: LutherMan on September 03, 2009, 10:06:28 PM
I have to wait, since I ordered the larger print.  I am envious.   ;)
Title: Re: The Lutheran Study Bible
Post by: Dave_Poedel on September 03, 2009, 10:43:46 PM
Me too...large print, sangria leather for me.....end of the month.
Title: Re: The Lutheran Study Bible
Post by: Scott6 on September 03, 2009, 10:49:44 PM
Me not.  I ordered the normal hardback.  Where's mine?!?!  >:(


 ;)
[[Yes, yes, Paul.  I know that it'll probably show up tomorrow.]]
Title: Re: The Lutheran Study Bible
Post by: LutherMan on September 03, 2009, 10:54:40 PM
Me not.  I ordered the normal hardback.  Where's mine?!?!  >:(


 ;)
[[Yes, yes, Paul.  I know that it'll probably show up tomorrow.]]

I would raise *holy hell* with Pr. McCain if I were you, esp. since you have good eyes.  Give him and Pr. Englebrecht what for since you were slighted and haven't got your Bible.   ;) ;D
Title: Re: The Lutheran Study Bible
Post by: northdakota on September 03, 2009, 11:09:56 PM
I hope to get mine in October sometimes. At least that is when the nice lady from Concordia promised it. ;D
Title: Re: The Lutheran Study Bible
Post by: LutherMan on September 03, 2009, 11:14:40 PM
I hope to get mine in October sometimes. At least that is when the nice lady from Concordia promised it. ;D

It was supposed to be Reformation Day Pr. B.  How dare they (CPH) ship early!
Title: Re: The Lutheran Study Bible
Post by: Scott6 on September 03, 2009, 11:15:51 PM
Me not.  I ordered the normal hardback.  Where's mine?!?!  >:(


 ;)
[[Yes, yes, Paul.  I know that it'll probably show up tomorrow.]]

I would raise *holy hell* with Pr. McCain if I were you, esp. since you have good eyes.  Give him and Pr. Englebrecht what for since you were slighted and haven't got your Bible.   ;) ;D

Good eyes, schmood I's.  I'm durn near blind, but thank God for contact lenses.  As to Paul and Ted, well, I'll just have to wait and see if mine shows up tomorrow or not.

It is the NA27 with the cool commentary, right?  [[Why bother with English translation, after all...]]
Title: Re: The Lutheran Study Bible
Post by: Mel Harris on September 03, 2009, 11:29:06 PM

Me not.  I ordered the normal hardback.  Where's mine?!?!  >:(


 ;)
[[Yes, yes, Paul.  I know that it'll probably show up tomorrow.]]


Scott,

I received an email this morning saying that my copy was shipped today.  I expect it to arrive next week.

 ;D

Mel Harris
Title: Re: The Lutheran Study Bible
Post by: MSchimmel on September 04, 2009, 07:02:43 AM
I ordered the leather bound standard print - my eyes are still working fine - but at 46 the day is approaching.  I didn't notice the large print version available when I placed my order.  Think I'll make a phone call today.
Title: Re: The Lutheran Study Bible
Post by: vicarbob on September 04, 2009, 12:15:07 PM
"We" already have a newly issued Study Bible....what there's yet another ;)
Title: Re: The Lutheran Study Bible
Post by: pr dtp on September 04, 2009, 12:20:37 PM
"We" already have a newly issued Study Bible....what there's yet another ;)

Yes - a Lutheran one... at least this one appears Lutheran..  (wondering if that means it shipped with free lutheran beverage samples or?)   ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: The Lutheran Study Bible
Post by: Scott6 on September 04, 2009, 12:46:59 PM
"We" already have a newly issued Study Bible....what there's yet another ;)

Big, big difference betwixt and between the two such that they pretty much constitute different genres.

Check out the differences...

CPH's new study Bible on John: http://s7d1.scene7.com/s7ondemand/brochure/flash_brochure.jsp?company=CPH&sku=John&config=tlsb_epistles&zoomwidth=1000&zoomheight=800 (note that you can flip through the pages like a virtual book)

AF's new study Bible on Jonah: http://www.augsburgfortress.org/media/downloads/LSB_sample_pages.pdf (as an aside, Jonah is one of the more heavily-commented upon books; I noticed that other books have a lot of white space in the margins)
Title: Re: The Lutheran Study Bible
Post by: Edward Engelbrecht on September 04, 2009, 01:42:28 PM
Me not.  I ordered the normal hardback.  Where's mine?!?!  >:(


 ;)
[[Yes, yes, Paul.  I know that it'll probably show up tomorrow.]]

I would raise *holy hell* with Pr. McCain if I were you, esp. since you have good eyes.  Give him and Pr. Englebrecht what for since you were slighted and haven't got your Bible.   ;) ;D

I believe Brother Yakimow is in a different shipping zone. Also, the distribution team is filling a lot of orders all at once. I think they are going out in the order the purchases were received. That may have affected the arrival time. I would be interested to read people's reactions to the book in this forum.

In Christ,

Rev. Edward A. Engelbrecht, STM
Concordia Publishing House
Senior Editor for Professional and Academic Books
and Bible Resources

General Editor for The Lutheran Study Bible
Title: Re: The Lutheran Study Bible
Post by: Matt Staneck on September 04, 2009, 02:08:44 PM
The SMP Seminarian and I each picked up a copy yesterday at CSL's book store and I have to say I am blown away by the book as a resource.

I have a feeling that this bible will not only be great for private devotional work, but also in my theological studies.

Orientation is over. Time to explore the city of St. Louis for a couple days before classes on tuesday!

M. Staneck
Title: Re: The Lutheran Study Bible
Post by: Weedon on September 04, 2009, 02:24:13 PM
I should just have driven across the danged river and picked one up!!!  Sign me - Impatient in Illinois.
Title: Re: The Lutheran Study Bible
Post by: Jeremy Loesch on September 04, 2009, 03:06:06 PM
There are too many rivers for me to cross to get to St. Louis these days. 

I am patiently biding my time while the congregation places its order.  Passed out 45 of the samplers to the congregation, wrote a summary in our newsletter, and people are making their orders.  Will at least have 14 members with the TLSB in their hands at some point.  Orders are due by Sept. 13, order should be placed a day or two after, will have a big 'something' when the Bibles come.  Can...not...wait...

At least I have my all-in-one-volume Hebrew OT and Greek NT.

And Matt, glad you and your father reached St. Louis safely.  And 'jealous' that you have your copy of TLSB already.  A good place to discover in St. Louis is Killabrew's in Jefferson Park.  It's on the way to CPH's main building.  It's off of Jefferson but I forget the cross street.  I used to be able to get there in my sleep.  A nice quiet establishment.  Check it out with your pop and then you can take your new compatriots there and dazzle them with your knowledge of the area.   

If you need on campus employment, the post office and bank is a great job.  Delivering the faculty and staff mail is a good gig.  You get to meet all the secretary's and many of them have nice, full candy dishes.  And they are sweet Christian women who take an interest in the students.  And the faculty that you meet are decent too.   ;)  A better, more lucrative job is off campus at Outback Steakhouse on Clayton Ave.  They've hired a few seminarians, probably because we show up on time, work hard, and are decent people.  I washed dishes, bused tables, was a waiter and then bartended for over a year before I went on vicarage.  (Lowest alcohol costs in the bi-state region BTW!)

As far as seminary goes, take as many courses with Gibbs, Saleska, Schmitt, Weise, Rosin, Bartelt as you can.  I know Rossow just became emeritus but if you see his name, take him too.  Same with Brighton. 

Got to run.  But we've already scheduled prayers for our seminarians this Sunday, for our college and university students, for all students as back-to-school is going on.  So we'll be praying for you.  Blessings on the beginning.

Jeremy

PS- And give thanks to God that for at least the next several years you'll have an opportunity to watch good baseball.  I live amid Philly fans and when they ask why I root for the Cardinals I tell them that if I'm going to watch baseball, I might as well watch good baseball.  They don't like that once they figure it out.   
Title: Re: The Lutheran Study Bible
Post by: vicarbob on September 04, 2009, 08:15:43 PM
Should be an early nite Matt, sightseeing in St Louis........PLEEZE ,
Seriously dude, glad you and your Dad arrived safely.....just wondering aloud if there are any plans afoot to jointly write of your father/son experiences in seminary. Should provide a most informative read. Are there any other father/son teams currently in "the process", has there ever been?
I was honored to receive a "complementary" advance of the CHP New Study Bible in genuine leather with ribbons from the Publisher (I think???)
I compared it to 'our" study Bible and must candidly admit........."ours" is FAR Superior. An easier "read" for those bound by conscience and have little need of scholarly "speak".
"Our" design is also more eye appealing, no sense in that old, tired, rose thingy which graces "your" edition.
Pax,
Bob
Title: Re: The Lutheran Study Bible
Post by: Scott6 on September 04, 2009, 09:07:40 PM
An easier "read" for those bound by conscience and have little need of scholarly "speak".

Hmmm... I suppose it would appeal for those not wanting a scholarly, uh, study Bible.

 ;D
Title: Re: The Lutheran Study Bible
Post by: Matt Staneck on September 04, 2009, 09:14:54 PM
Pr. Loesch,

Thank you very much for the words of advice and suggestions! And even more importantly, I am VERY grateful for the prayers.  I am going to need that more than anything else for sure. On day one all new students: M. Div, Alternate, SMP, EIIT, and DIT sat in a seminar by Dr. Hartung about how satan will come at us during pastoral formation and how prayer will be our strength.

As to you Vicar Bob: you got a complimentary copy from cph? That's funny bc I got a complimentary copy from AF and a sheet asking for my valued opinion.  And if you believe that, I have a bridge in brooklyn I can sell you.

I plan on continuing to write and I plan on getting dad too as well. We shall see, as they say, stay tuned.  Thanks for the words!

M. Staneck
Title: Re: The Lutheran Study Bible
Post by: Scott6 on September 04, 2009, 09:18:04 PM
Seriously, though, folks.  For those who haven't had the chance to compare the options, let me encourage you to do so.  The two Bibles are vastly different from each other, filling different niches.

CPH's new study Bible on John: http://s7d1.scene7.com/s7ondemand/brochure/flash_brochure.jsp?company=CPH&sku=John&config=tlsb_epistles&zoomwidth=1000&zoomheight=800 (note that you can flip through the pages like a virtual book)

For more samples from CPH's new study Bible, check this out: http://www.cph.org/cphstore/pages/resources/tlsb/lookinside.asp

And for comparison purposes, here's an example from AF's new study Bible on Jonah: http://www.augsburgfortress.org/media/downloads/LSB_sample_pages.pdf

I would list other examples of biblical books from AF, but only the one from Jonah appears on the website along with an excerpt of an article (http://www.augsburgfortress.org/store/item.jsp?isbn=0806680598&clsid=195708&infoid=21731).

I'll let the books speak for themselves.
Title: Re: The Lutheran Study Bible
Post by: vicarbob on September 04, 2009, 10:02:15 PM
Tried Scott,but received the following when viewing the CPH offering....... "try again later sorry for the inconvience" . ??? ???
NICE GOIN over there at CPH, at least at AF "our" pages are running and can be viewed. :P
Now about that bridge Matt...it seems that I have a few extra dollars in my pocket now........................... :D
 :-*
Bob ;)
Title: Re: The Lutheran Study Bible
Post by: Scott6 on September 04, 2009, 10:29:10 PM
Tried Scott,but received the following when viewing the CPH offering....... "try again later sorry for the inconvience" . ??? ???

Huh.  That's interesting.  When I do it in Opera, I get that message.  When I do it in IE or Google Chrome, it works fine.

In any case, I thought you said that you have a copy in front of you (even in leather).  So go and compare with that.
Title: Re: The Lutheran Study Bible
Post by: vicarbob on September 05, 2009, 12:20:13 AM
Scott, its WAY too pretty to open and what r u doin' at the Opera this time of nite?
Dude............I'm kiddin......
when does CPH ever give anything away, especially to an ELCA Vicar ;)
pax
bob
Title: Re: The Lutheran Study Bible
Post by: Scott6 on September 05, 2009, 08:47:18 AM
Scott, its WAY too pretty to open and what r u doin' at the Opera this time of nite?
Dude............I'm kiddin......
when does CPH ever give anything away, especially to an ELCA Vicar ;)
pax
bob

You know, I just realized something (I'm slow, forgive me).  Since you prefer AF's offering anyway, why don't you drop that leather-bound free copy from CPH in the mail and send it on over to me.  I'll even pay for shipping.  ;D
Title: Re: The Lutheran Study Bible
Post by: vicarbob on September 05, 2009, 09:06:51 AM
It's in the mail Scott....along with a check ;)
pax
Bob
gee, maybe I can get a Ph.D :o :o
Title: Re: The Lutheran Study Bible
Post by: Harvey_Mozolak on September 06, 2009, 05:17:40 PM
Got my copy in the mail Saturday but not yet the ones my Bible Class ordered.  A couple of observations:

1. my most terrible complaint and no one can do anything about it and maybe the size demanded it... but the onion skin paper is way thin and no matter how you turn the pages there are always creasing and foldings threatened.

2. Cover prayers nice idea but wish the prayers covered a bit broader range and wider authorship.

3. Dating can be funny… John 1.1 did happen a bit before 3 BC, should have used the same notation at least as Gen 1.

4. I really don’t like red letter bibles, they seem to be such an intrusion on the Word of God, like caps in emails eh?  And to note them so carefully in Revelation seems audacious.  Is there any explanation or justification for them them in the notes of this edition.

5. The theological icons are something quite new and in vogue but I wonder why the four were chosen and why not others, I know you can have too many but there are other notations that might have been helpful.

6. Someone I read did not like the pics... considering they have to be done in black and white, quite vibant and tasteful and traditional. 

7. All the extras are nice and on the one hand I like them and on the other:
Are some things too much?
Say the article on GOD BLESSED MARRIAGE, page 2120  (tho one of the indexes says that it is on page 2128 or something like that; just something to correct next ed.)
one of the paragraphs talks about 80% of marriages begun by people living together end in failure and those who refrain from premarital sex are 29 to 47 % more likely to enjoy sex after marriage... well, the article comes from 2005, is the 80% figure up or down in the last four years (and how long is this Bible to last?) and isn't it either right or wrong rather than the best chance according to stats.  And of course the second stat is laughable... how in the world would you come up with such specificity?  Are these enjoying Lutherans, or Christians or all heterosexuals?  These are at best human observations which may or may not impact seriously on theology.  Feelings of enjoyment sounds like my ELCA’s way of ascertaining things. 

And that takes me to an even more important point about study bibles... 
When I was a kid I had a KJV... and it had a parallel passages down the middle and a concordance of words in the back and there we had it...  The Roman Catholic kid had a Bible with notes that told him what stuff meant according to their theology and we did not need that, though we were taught the catechism...  Are we that frightened that we have AF bibles that tell us all the liberal stuff we need to know about God’s Word and CPH bibles that tell us all the conservative stuff?   Almost a war of the study Bibles?  Not that I like the AF product at all.   Harvey Mozolak
Title: Re: The Lutheran Study Bible
Post by: Edward Engelbrecht on September 08, 2009, 09:49:01 AM
Dear Harvey, thanks for your questions/comments. Please find my notes below.

Got my copy in the mail Saturday but not yet the ones my Bible Class ordered.  A couple of observations:

1. my most terrible complaint and no one can do anything about it and maybe the size demanded it... but the onion skin paper is way thin and no matter how you turn the pages there are always creasing and foldings threatened.
The paper decision for a Bible is the most challenging aspect of production. Decisions about the regular-sized edition were made in an effort to present a most affordable and portable book. The larger print edition uses a thicker paper; easy on the eyes but it will build your biceps.

2. Cover prayers nice idea but wish the prayers covered a bit broader range and wider authorship.  
The prayers were chosen especially as prayers about God’s Word and the growth of His kingdom. Much broader collections of prayers are available in Treasury of Daily Prayer and The Lord Will Answer: A Daily Prayer Catechism.

3. Dating can be funny… John 1.1 did happen a bit before 3 BC, should have used the same notation at least as Gen 1.
The center column dates, because they contain very limited information, had to focus on the most substantial, dateable topic on the page. In this case, the incarnation was chosen. “Eternity” was a viable alternative but not the primary topic of the page or the ESV heading, “The Word Became Flesh.”

4. I really don’t like red letter bibles, they seem to be such an intrusion on the Word of God, like caps in emails eh?  And to note them so carefully in Revelation seems audacious.  Is there any explanation or justification for them them in the notes of this edition.  
Red letter editions are commonly sought by customers. I regard red lettering as just another form of annotation, of which there are dozens in a Study Bible.

5. The theological icons are something quite new and in vogue but I wonder why the four were chosen and why not others, I know you can have too many but there are other notations that might have been helpful.
In my early notes on the project there are about twenty content/theology icons sketched out. To use them all would make quite a mess on the pages. Focusing on the doctrine of justification, we narrowed the icons down to four with the following thoughts: (1) Trinity Icon. A most distinctively, Christian teaching that deserves special attention, especially since false teachers come knocking at the parishioners’ doors. We need to know the Father, who justifies us through His Son and gives us His Spirit. (2) Word and Sacrament Icon. Important Lutheran emphasis that ties closes to the doctrine of justification. Lutheran views on the Sacraments are also commonly challenged by other Christian teachers and so deserved special attention in The Lutheran Study Bible. (3) Mission Icon. Stems directly from the doctrine of justification since Christ calls the Church to proclaim the Gospel to all nations. We wanted readers to see how constant this theme is in God’s Word. (4) Law and Gospel Icon. God calls us to repentance and justification by grace through faith using these two chief teachings of Scripture. Essential emphasis in The Lutheran Study Bible. Aside from the regular feature of the Law and Gospel Icon, we tried to be sparing in use of icons. Too many on a page looks very strange. There were places where we cut/consolidated the number of icons just for this reason.

6. Someone I read did not like the pics... considering they have to be done in black and white, quite vibant and tasteful and traditional.   
Classic doesn’t go out of style. Be sure to read about the artist on p. xiii.

7. All the extras are nice and on the one hand I like them and on the other:
Are some things too much?
Say the article on GOD BLESSED MARRIAGE, page 2120  (tho one of the indexes says that it is on page 2128 or something like that; just something to correct next ed.)
one of the paragraphs talks about 80% of marriages begun by people living together end in failure and those who refrain from premarital sex are 29 to 47 % more likely to enjoy sex after marriage... well, the article comes from 2005, is the 80% figure up or down in the last four years (and how long is this Bible to last?) and isn't it either right or wrong rather than the best chance according to stats.  And of course the second stat is laughable... how in the world would you come up with such specificity?  Are these enjoying Lutherans, or Christians or all heterosexuals?  These are at best human observations which may or may not impact seriously on theology.  Feelings of enjoyment sounds like my ELCA’s way of ascertaining things.  
For LCMS pastors and families, questions about marriage/family are constant since the teachings of Scripture and the Church on these topics are truly counter-cultural. Having the article readily available in the Study Bible makes it a convenient, common tool for pastors who need to discuss these issues with parishioners. The statistics have been fairly steady in recent decades. As the opening definition of marriage indicates, the article is about heterosexuals (“marriage” properly applies to them). It was not written with the current ELCA issues or interests in mind.

And that takes me to an even more important point about study bibles... 
When I was a kid I had a KJV... and it had a parallel passages down the middle and a concordance of words in the back and there we had it...  The Roman Catholic kid had a Bible with notes that told him what stuff meant according to their theology and we did not need that, though we were taught the catechism...  Are we that frightened that we have AF bibles that tell us all the liberal stuff we need to know about God’s Word and CPH bibles that tell us all the conservative stuff?   Almost a war of the study Bibles?  Not that I like the AF product at all.   Harvey Mozolak
Lutherans have always used Bibles with notes (see “TLSB Study Notes,” p. xxii). The tradition of glosses is at least medieval, though I would say it is much more ancient. See TLSB notes on Gn 14:14; 36:31. Cf. also the Jewish targumic tradition. Some modern Protestants advocate for Bibles without notes on the basis of a misunderstanding of sola scriptura, as though God does not want us to use faithful sermons, catechisms, hymn books, etc. Sola scripture properly describes the use of Scripture to judge doctrine, not that we must use the Bible alone---nothing else---for teaching purposes.
Plans for a new Study Bible began in 2001. CPH announced the development of The Lutheran Study Bible in 2004, which was a response to customer requests for a Study Bible using the ESV translation. We were not aware of A/F plans, which appeared later. Sources tell me that A/F originally thought of titling their work, “Lutheran Student Bible.” I will not speculate further on why they chose a title so similar to the one CPH had announced years before.

In Christ,
Rev. Edward A. Engelbrecht, STM
Senior Editor for Professional and Academic Books
and Bible Resources

General Editor for The Lutheran Study Bible
Title: Re: The Lutheran Study Bible
Post by: vicarbob on September 08, 2009, 12:41:18 PM
Hmmmmm, so AF who published before CPH used a similar title...hmmm a Bible published by Lutherans calling itself a Lutheran Bible, how unique ::) ::) Hope ELW as a title wasn't a concern ;)
Pax,
Bob
Trying to book a flight to STS.......we were asked to bring the LBW.....no recommendation as to "preferred" Bible was noted.
Title: Re: The Lutheran Study Bible
Post by: revklak on September 08, 2009, 01:45:45 PM
Hmmmmm, so AF who published before CPH used a similar title...hmmm a Bible published by Lutherans calling itself a Lutheran Bible, how unique ::) ::) Hope ELW as a title wasn't a concern ;)
Pax,
Bob
Trying to book a flight to STS.......we were asked to bring the LBW.....no recommendation as to "preferred" Bible was noted.

I understand the Vulgate works quite nicely in that setting, and I'm sure they have a few extra around there.  ;D  If you need a copy, I'll bring mine.
Title: Re: The Lutheran Study Bible
Post by: vicarbob on September 08, 2009, 04:03:53 PM
the song of songs is certainly not w/o imagary, but Vulgar :o :o :o
BTW. STS is just about out of rooms....only one left with whirlpool and private sitting room
Title: Re: The Lutheran Study Bible
Post by: pr dtp on September 08, 2009, 04:06:24 PM
Hmmmmm, so AF who published before CPH used a similar title...hmmm a Bible published by Lutherans calling itself a Lutheran Bible, how unique ::) ::) Hope ELW as a title wasn't a concern ;)
Pax,
Bob
Trying to book a flight to STS.......we were asked to bring the LBW.....no recommendation as to "preferred" Bible was noted.

I understand the Vulgate works quite nicely in that setting, and I'm sure they have a few extra around there.  ;D  If you need a copy, I'll bring mine.

sigh..these modern revisionists.....
Title: Re: The Lutheran Study Bible
Post by: LutherMan on September 08, 2009, 10:55:55 PM
Hmmmmm, so AF who published before CPH used a similar title...hmmm a Bible published by Lutherans calling itself a Lutheran Bible, how unique ::) ::) Hope ELW as a title wasn't a concern ;)
Pax,
Bob
Trying to book a flight to STS.......we were asked to bring the LBW.....no recommendation as to "preferred" Bible was noted.

Vicarbob, I am just glad you aren't a Missouri Lutheran.  You scare the crap outta' me with your non quia theology.
Title: Re: The Lutheran Study Bible
Post by: LutherMan on September 08, 2009, 11:02:07 PM
vicarbob is not a Lutheran whom I would recognize as a fellow Lutheran.
Title: Re: The Lutheran Study Bible
Post by: Matt Staneck on September 08, 2009, 11:16:10 PM
vicarbob is not a Lutheran whom I would recognize as a fellow Lutheran.

Thanks for the declaration, we were all waiting for it! 

M. Staneck

PS: Did Pastor's Johnson or Speckhard appoint you chief statement maker around here? You have an awful lot to say, "Lutherman."
Title: Re: The Lutheran Study Bible
Post by: LutherMan on September 08, 2009, 11:18:17 PM
vicarbob is not a Lutheran whom I would recognize as a fellow Lutheran.

Thanks for the declaration, we were all waiting for it! 

M. Staneck

PS: Did Pastor's Johnson or Speckhard appoint you chief statement maker around here? You have an awful lot to say, "Lutherman."

Like Pr. Charles Austin, I am self-appointed.
Title: Re: The Lutheran Study Bible
Post by: LutherMan on September 08, 2009, 11:30:17 PM
vicarbob is not a Lutheran whom I would recognize as a fellow Lutheran.

Thanks for the declaration, we were all waiting for it! 

M. Staneck

PS: Did Pastor's Johnson or Speckhard appoint you chief statement maker around here? You have an awful lot to say, "Lutherman."

I await your call, haughty youngster.  After you complete sem.  I'm just a layman with a checkbook, of course.  The dumb pewsitting Lutheran.
Title: Re: The Lutheran Study Bible
Post by: grabau14 on September 08, 2009, 11:56:29 PM
Hmmmmm, so AF who published before CPH used a similar title...hmmm a Bible published by Lutherans calling itself a Lutheran Bible, how unique ::) ::) Hope ELW as a title wasn't a concern ;)
Pax,
Bob
Trying to book a flight to STS.......we were asked to bring the LBW.....no recommendation as to "preferred" Bible was noted.

The CPH project has been in production a lot longer than the AF product.  The AF study Bible barely has any notes, and the notes it does have are well...... 

For the record, I am a collector of Bibles especially those with notes from various traditions.  The Orthodox Study Bible is a nice resource.
Title: Re: The Lutheran Study Bible
Post by: Matt Staneck on September 09, 2009, 12:16:33 AM
vicarbob is not a Lutheran whom I would recognize as a fellow Lutheran.

Thanks for the declaration, we were all waiting for it! 

M. Staneck

PS: Did Pastor's Johnson or Speckhard appoint you chief statement maker around here? You have an awful lot to say, "Lutherman."

I await your call, haughty youngster.  After you complete sem.  I'm just a layman with a checkbook, of course.  The dumb pewsitting Lutheran.

I don't get your self appointed crusade to say things that are pretty much better left unsaid.  "Just a layman with a checkbook, of course."  What does that mean?  Is this some sort of monetary threat against me if I'm ever up for a call?

M. Staneck
Title: Re: The Lutheran Study Bible
Post by: Timotheus Verinus on September 09, 2009, 01:31:56 AM
I await your call, haughty youngster.  After you complete sem.  I'm just a layman with a checkbook, of course.  The dumb pewsitting Lutheran.

I don't get your self appointed crusade to say things that are pretty much better left unsaid.  "Just a layman with a checkbook, of course."  What does that mean?  Is this some sort of monetary threat against me if I'm ever up for a call?

M. Staneck

Matt,

Don't get too reactive. :) Those things tend to settle themselves out in cycles. After a congregation gets a reputation, the decline call rate starts running in the teens and they stop calling. Usually the DP gets around to an Intentional interim to deal with the response. A Specific Ministry context emerges, and if they don't get trapped in endless retired pastor syndrome, some changes happen. Sooner or later comments such as this will get the answer, "You , dear member, have me confused with someone who needs your checkbook. Rather, you respond with gifts to God, or not, and no more. I'll work with whatever He provides."

IF you ever find yourself in such circumstances, consider making the announcement that you have asked the council to mothball the building, to. buy a small 6ft by 8 foot shed to store a table, a bible, a cross, and the elements, to be set it in the parking lot. Tell folks you will be in the parking lot at worship time. Few call documents require you to hold worship in a designated sanctuary. You don't even need chairs. You don't even need the shed.... I have those things in the trunk of my car. (along with some liinen, ashes, oil, candles etc.)

Matt 6:24 ""No one can serve two masters, for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and money."

TV
Title: Re: The Lutheran Study Bible
Post by: RevSteve on September 09, 2009, 02:18:20 AM
Hmmmmm, so AF who published before CPH used a similar title...hmmm a Bible published by Lutherans calling itself a Lutheran Bible, how unique ::) ::) Hope ELW as a title wasn't a concern ;)
Pax,
Bob
Trying to book a flight to STS.......we were asked to bring the LBW.....no recommendation as to "preferred" Bible was noted.

The CPH project has been in production a lot longer than the AF product.  The AF study Bible barely has any notes, and the notes it does have are well...... 

For the record, I am a collector of Bibles especially those with notes from various traditions.  The Orthodox Study Bible is a nice resource.

Yes and if I am not mistaken the CPH study Bible was also originally going to simply be called "Lutheran Study Bible" but after AF stole it for their vastly inferior study Bible CPH was forced to add the "The.." 

Title: Re: The Lutheran Study Bible
Post by: Edward Engelbrecht on September 09, 2009, 08:09:07 AM

Yes and if I am not mistaken the CPH study Bible was also originally going to simply be called "Lutheran Study Bible" but after AF stole it for their vastly inferior study Bible CPH was forced to add the "The.." 



Dear Steve,

In fact, the project was titled "The Lutheran Study Bible" pretty much from the start. You will find that title on our Grow in His Word site, which we set up in 2004 when I was Senior Editor for Adult Bible Studies. Here is the address:

http://infocus.cph.org/abs/

Note the date at the bottom of the page. We did not change our title in response to A/F. We wanted the acronym "TLSB" to distinguish the Study Bible from LSB (Lutheran Service Book, CPH's new hymn book). McCain chose the title, I chose the acronym.

Regarding the duration of the project, I kept telling the team: Good things take time; bad things can be done immediately. I thank God for the patience of CPH leadership and the patience of our customers, which allowed us to develop the most thorough Study Bible available in English.

In Christ,
Rev. Edward A. Engelbrecht, STM
Senior Editor for Professional and Academic Books
and Bible Resources

General Editor for The Lutheran Study Bible
Title: Re: The Lutheran Study Bible
Post by: Charles_Austin on September 09, 2009, 08:13:01 AM
Technically, an "acronym" is a word, that is, a pronounceable combination of initial letters, like NATO. But we get what you mean.

(Once an English major, always an English major.)
Title: Re: The Lutheran Study Bible
Post by: Weedon on September 09, 2009, 08:33:45 AM
Well, TLSB is pronounceable.  It's just Slovak...  Who need vowels? ;)
Title: Re: The Lutheran Study Bible
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on September 09, 2009, 09:45:22 AM
Well, TLSB is pronounceable.  It's just Slovak...  Who need vowels? ;)
Certainly not the ancient Hebrews -- even fewer than the Slavs! :)
Title: Re: The Lutheran Study Bible
Post by: Harvey_Mozolak on September 09, 2009, 11:35:26 AM
except Will, you did not include the Slovak diacritical markings....  Harvey Mozolak
Title: Re: The Lutheran Study Bible
Post by: RevSteve on September 09, 2009, 11:48:18 AM

Yes and if I am not mistaken the CPH study Bible was also originally going to simply be called "Lutheran Study Bible" but after AF stole it for their vastly inferior study Bible CPH was forced to add the "The.." 



Dear Steve,

In fact, the project was titled "The Lutheran Study Bible" pretty much from the start. You will find that title on our Grow in His Word site, which we set up in 2004 when I was Senior Editor for Adult Bible Studies. Here is the address:

http://infocus.cph.org/abs/

Note the date at the bottom of the page. We did not change our title in response to A/F. We wanted the acronym "TLSB" to distinguish the Study Bible from LSB (Lutheran Service Book, CPH's new hymn book). McCain chose the title, I chose the acronym.

Regarding the duration of the project, I kept telling the team: Good things take time; bad things can be done immediately. I thank God for the patience of CPH leadership and the patience of our customers, which allowed us to develop the most thorough Study Bible available in English.

In Christ,
Rev. Edward A. Engelbrecht, STM
Senior Editor for Professional and Academic Books
and Bible Resources

General Editor for The Lutheran Study Bible

Thanks for the clarification. And having recently received my copy in the mail, I concure that it was indeed worth the wait.
Title: Re: The Lutheran Study Bible
Post by: Edward Engelbrecht on September 10, 2009, 07:47:23 AM

Thanks for the clarification. And having recently received my copy in the mail, I concure that it was indeed worth the wait.

I pray that you enjoy your time of study and devotion in the book. I'm currently reading the KJV translation but then I read the application notes (marked with the Law and Gospel icon) in TLSB as part of my daily prayers. One of the things I appreciate most about the authors' work is the way they use the broad context of Scripture, following the principle of Scripture interprets Scripture, to illuminate and apply some of the more obscure texts. For example, I was reading Joshua 19:32--39 this morning, which is a list of the cities allotted to Naphtali---pretty dull, even for someone trained in biblical studies. The application note really helps liven up the reading experience and relates the historical significance of the passage to Christ.
Title: Re: The Lutheran Study Bible
Post by: vicarbob on September 10, 2009, 10:55:15 AM
vicarbob is not a Lutheran whom I would recognize as a fellow Lutheran.
How did I miss this posting :o :o :o :o
Thus far, I have been declared by "some" as not "Catholic' in Faith, now not Lutheran.
 Do I dignify the poster with a response.
 NOT

To my brother Matthew, thank you and keep up the studies. The Church has need of shepherds like you and your Dad.
I too use the Orthodox Study Bible and find it most helpful.
For the record, I have the highest regard for the LC-MS and have been mentored by some of Her pastors. I have counted LC-MS deacons as collegues and friends. I have been blessed to have come to know the LC-MS throughtout the years and have referred "seekers" Her way. One soon will be consecrated as a deacon.
In the posters attempt to be dismissive of Matt as a "youngster', any of us who have read Matt's sharing on this Forum are blessed by his faithfulness, maturity and his love and passion for ministry. His understanding of the Confessions is beyond his years and is not doubt been because of his parents, pastors, teachers and a host of other saints.
Lastly brother Lutherman, if being a "pewsitter with a checkbook" any way describes your understanding of being a Lutheran-Christian, then your pastor has his work cut out for him. Being a Christian has nothing to do with sitting on your butt and a checkbook.....ain't gettin' ya into heaven. The price has been paid and it wasn't written by you!
Title: Re: The Lutheran Study Bible
Post by: George Erdner on September 10, 2009, 11:24:42 AM
vicarbob is not a Lutheran whom I would recognize as a fellow Lutheran.
How did I miss this posting :o :o :o :o
Thus far, I have been declared by "some" as not "Catholic' in Faith, now not Lutheran.
 Do I dignify the poster with a response.
 NOT

To my brother Matthew, thank you and keep up the studies. The Church has need of shepherds like you and your Dad.
I too use the Orthodox Study Bible and find it most helpful.
For the record, I have the highest regard for the LC-MS and have been mentored by some of Her pastors. I have counted LC-MS deacons as collegues and friends. I have been blessed to have come to know the LC-MS throughtout the years and have referred "seekers" Her way. One soon will be consecrated as a deacon.
In the posters attempt to be dismissive of Matt as a "youngster', any of us who have read Matt's sharing on this Forum are blessed by his faithfulness, maturity and his love and passion for ministry. His understanding of the Confessions is beyond his years and is not doubt been because of his parents, pastors, teachers and a host of other saints.
Lastly brother Lutherman, if being a "pewsitter with a checkbook" any way describes your understanding of being a Lutheran-Christian, then your pastor has his work cut out for him. Being a Christian has nothing to do with sitting on your butt and a checkbook.....ain't gettin' ya into heaven. The price has been paid and it wasn't written by you!


Please bear in mind that in the ELCA, being a Lutheran is not a requirement. Being a Lutheran doesn't mean that you've signed up for membership somewhere, being a Lutheran means embracing the Lutheran confessions, culture, and traditions. The ELCA is such a big tent that those three things are not a requirement for membership. The full communion agreements that the ELCA has entered into, plus the recent decisions at the CWA, are proof that one need not be a Lutheran to be a member of the ELCA or even to be an ordained minister in the ELCA.

Your posts over the time I've been reading them indicate that you want to be a clergyman. They also indicate that you're not too fussy about being a Lutheran clergyman, it's just that the ELCA was the organization that accepted you for inclusion in their training program. Your posts about things like the position of Mary and your insistence that you will be a "presbyter" instead of a minister or pastor give evidence that deep down inside, you'd prefer to be a Roman Catholic Priest, but you're settling for becoming an ELCA clergyman.

There's nothing wrong with that.

You feel called to serve God as leader of a congregation of Christians. That's a good thing. You're working through an organization that is empowering you to achieve your goal. That's a good thing. Technically speaking, you'll be ordained as a "Lutheran" despite not really buying into the whole Lutheran thing, but that's not a big deal in the ELCA. Given our full-communion agreements, there could be clergy serving ELCA congregations who are Presbyterians, Methodists, Episcopalians, Mennonites, or members of the UCC. None of them are "recognized" as Lutherans, but it doesn't stand in their way of serving God by serving as leader of a congregation. So, when you become a "presbyter" instead of a Lutheran Pastor, that will be a good thing. If your congregation accepts you as their Minister, what difference does it make if you're really Lutheran or not? If the ELCA doesn't care that you aren't really a Lutheran, why should you feel offended if other people don't recognize you as Lutheran?

The truth be told, there are some graduates of Lutheran seminaries who've been ordained in the ELCA (or a predecessor body) and who are on the roster of the ELCA who are even less "Lutheran" than you. But that also doesn't matter. The ELCA doesn't enforce any rules requiring its clergy to be "Lutheran", so it clearly doesn't matter.

Title: Re: The Lutheran Study Bible
Post by: Scott6 on September 10, 2009, 03:37:46 PM
Am I the only one on this board who pre-ordered and is still waiting...    :'(
Title: Re: The Lutheran Study Bible
Post by: Edward Engelbrecht on September 10, 2009, 04:26:11 PM
Am I the only one on this board who pre-ordered and is still waiting...    :'(

It looks like you placed the order in August so that would likely put you close to the end of the pre-order line. We started receiving preorders months before August. They are filled in the order in which they were received. Many, many, many thousands of copies are going out all at once, so I beg your patience.

And, no, I don't provide this sort of tracking for everyone.  :)

In Christ,
EE
Title: Re: The Lutheran Study Bible
Post by: Iowegian on September 10, 2009, 04:37:40 PM
Am I the only one on this board who pre-ordered and is still waiting...    :'(

Nope, then again I ordered a leather-bound copy.  My reviews will be colored only by my impatience.   :P
Title: Re: The Lutheran Study Bible
Post by: vicarbob on September 10, 2009, 05:30:03 PM
George, you are just sooooooo way off its a pity, it is a shame and it is in error.
I will not rehash what has been stated soooo many times and we will no doubt never come to an understanding. What is even a greater pity is that dialogue will not be respectful or even factual. At least from you.
Chances are that I will never be pastor of an ELCA congregation of which you are a member. Mostly because you won't be a member of the ELCA much longer. That too is a good thing......why? because you need to be faithful to where you are called to be. So too, me.
Being called as a pastor in and for the Church is NOT a response to one's own desire/needs/wants. One doesn't settle upon a denomination or vocation in service. The Office of ministry is Divinely instituted, the call is from HIM. Fight it as I have, yet still HE calls! Surrender to His grace and mercy......and the challanges ahead once responded to.
So dear George , IM "Lutherarman", talk among yourselves . But refrain from dictating who is "called" and who is Lutheran. Neither of you are to sit in judgement, nor are you on my call committee. Even more so, you do not constitute the faithful of the congregation I have already been called to serve.
Pax,
Presbyter-in-waiting
Title: Re: The Lutheran Study Bible
Post by: Scott6 on September 10, 2009, 06:08:32 PM
Am I the only one on this board who pre-ordered and is still waiting...    :'(

It looks like you placed the order in August so that would likely put you close to the end of the pre-order line. We started receiving preorders months before August. They are filled in the order in which they were received. Many, many, many thousands of copies are going out all at once, so I beg your patience.

And, no, I don't provide this sort of tracking for everyone.  :)

In Christ,
EE

Hey, not true...

Order Summary:
Order Number:   XXXXX-OL
Purchase Date:   2/13/2009 12:13:10 PM
Current Status:   Shipped

Order Details:

   1   The Lutheran Study Bible - Hardback
Unit price: $34.99   $34.99   
      
Shipping Date:   9/2/2009 4:35:17 PM

I guess that the PO is slow...


[[But seriously, thanks for the special treatment (as long as it's not Dachau-style)...  ;)]]
Title: Re: The Lutheran Study Bible
Post by: Rik on September 10, 2009, 06:16:36 PM
I was under the understanding that the pre-publication price is available through October 31st.  Was I mis-informed? ???

I need to order TLSB.......I need to order TLSB.......I need to order TLSB.......I need to order TLSB.......I need to order TLSB.......I need to order TLSB.......I need to order TLSB....... 


(Below quote: Ulrik Vilhelm Koren, Truths Unchanged, Unchanging: Selected Sermons, Addresses and Doctrinal Articles, tr. and ed. the Evangelical Lutheran Synod Translation Committee [Lake Mills, Iowa: Graphic Publishing Company, Inc., 1978]  p. 170, from Built On The Rock  [Mankato, Minnesota: Evangelical Lutheran Synod Book Company, 1992]  p.24.)



"Contempt for 'pure doctrine' is one of the signs of the times.  Doctrine in its deepest sense is never pure, if the necessity of its fruit in life is silenced or neglected."  -Ulrik Vilhelm Koren 1826-1910
Title: Re: The Lutheran Study Bible
Post by: grabau14 on September 10, 2009, 06:30:15 PM
Scott,

I ordered mine last weekTuesday and I got it yesterday.  Maybe CPH likes me better ;).
Title: Re: The Lutheran Study Bible
Post by: Scott6 on September 10, 2009, 06:47:21 PM
Scott,

I ordered mine last weekTuesday and I got it yesterday.  Maybe CPH likes me better ;).

All I can say is...

Il faut rire avant d'ętre heureux, de peur de mourir sans avoir ri.

Uh, "Ha, ha!"  :-\

[[The French qualifier is tomorrow]]
Title: Re: The Lutheran Study Bible
Post by: Lutheranistic on September 10, 2009, 07:11:48 PM
For some inexplicable reason, I always enjoy the opportunity to make use of 3 years of high school French, especially when a proverb such as this is easily recognized. But I also can't resist the temptation to let my desktop translator take a stab at it, which came up with this, due to a slight misspelling:

It is necessary to laugh before being happy, of fear of dying without have laughed.
Title: Re: The Lutheran Study Bible
Post by: Edward Engelbrecht on September 11, 2009, 09:35:52 AM
Am I the only one on this board who pre-ordered and is still waiting...    :'(

It looks like you placed the order in August so that would likely put you close to the end of the pre-order line. We started receiving preorders months before August. They are filled in the order in which they were received. Many, many, many thousands of copies are going out all at once, so I beg your patience.

And, no, I don't provide this sort of tracking for everyone.  :)

In Christ,
EE

Hey, not true...

Order Summary:
Order Number:   XXXXX-OL
Purchase Date:   2/13/2009 12:13:10 PM
Current Status:   Shipped

Order Details:

   1   The Lutheran Study Bible - Hardback
Unit price: $34.99   $34.99   
      
Shipping Date:   9/2/2009 4:35:17 PM

I guess that the PO is slow...


[[But seriously, thanks for the special treatment (as long as it's not Dachau-style)...  ;)]]


Thanks for your note, Scott. I've emailed this to customer service. We will be in touch.

In Christ,
EE
Title: Re: The Lutheran Study Bible
Post by: Richard Johnson on September 11, 2009, 10:12:31 AM
Am I the only one on this board who pre-ordered and is still waiting...    :'(

It looks like you placed the order in August so that would likely put you close to the end of the pre-order line. We started receiving preorders months before August. They are filled in the order in which they were received. Many, many, many thousands of copies are going out all at once, so I beg your patience.

EE

Busted!  :D
Title: Re: The Lutheran Study Bible
Post by: Scott6 on September 11, 2009, 10:27:03 AM
Am I the only one on this board who pre-ordered and is still waiting...    :'(

It looks like you placed the order in August so that would likely put you close to the end of the pre-order line. We started receiving preorders months before August. They are filled in the order in which they were received. Many, many, many thousands of copies are going out all at once, so I beg your patience.

EE

Busted!  :D

Keep reading, mon frčre.  ;D



[[ http://www.alpb.org/forum/index.php?topic=2265.msg115816#msg115816 (http://www.alpb.org/forum/index.php?topic=2265.msg115816#msg115816) ]]
Title: Re: The Lutheran Study Bible
Post by: vicarbob on September 11, 2009, 10:33:35 AM
Sorry Scott, I think I may have had something to do with your late ordering of the CPH Study Bible.  ;)
Pax
Bob
Title: Re: The Lutheran Study Bible
Post by: Scott6 on September 11, 2009, 10:57:06 AM
Sorry Scott, I think I may have had something to do with your late ordering of the CPH Study Bible.  ;)
Pax
Bob

Feb 13 t'ain't late.

But I'm still waiting for that gold-engraved, diamond-encrusted, baby-seal-skin version you promised me...
Title: Re: The Lutheran Study Bible
Post by: Richard Johnson on September 11, 2009, 01:50:51 PM
Scott,

I ordered mine last weekTuesday and I got it yesterday.  Maybe CPH likes me better ;).

There's customer service, and then there's customer service. Somebody somewhere around here (I think) mentioned Pfatteicher's new or revised New Book of Festivals and Commemorations. Saw that Augsburg wanted $50 for it. I found a (completely unnoticeably) used copy on line for less than half that, ordered it on Sept. 3, it arrived on Sept. 5.
Title: Re: The Lutheran Study Bible
Post by: Scott6 on September 11, 2009, 01:54:36 PM
The heavens opened, the birds sang, and seals leaped for joy in my neighbor's fish pond clapping their fins together to the beat of "A Mighty Fortress" before choirs of chirping dolphins drowned them out with an oddly-pitched rendition of "Thy Strong Word" as the mail guy drove by and rather unceremoniously dropped a package with a reverberous "thud!" on my driveway before almost backing over it...

It has arrived, it has arrived!  Immanusefar!  Hallelujah, hallelujah!  Mine eyes have seen...
Title: Re: The Lutheran Study Bible
Post by: James Gustafson on September 11, 2009, 02:20:49 PM
The heavens opened, the birds sang, and seals leaped for joy in my neighbor's fish pond clapping their fins together to the beat of "A Mighty Fortress" before choirs of chirping dolphins drowned them out with an oddly-pitched rendition of "Thy Strong Word" as the mail guy drove by and rather unceremoniously dropped a package with a reverberous "thud!" on my driveway before almost backing over it...

It has arrived, it has arrived!  Immanusefar!  Hallelujah, hallelujah!  Mine eyes have seen...

Oh for crying out loud, you guys!  I just know you are all simply trying to make me dig out my checkbook and write someone a check!  It's a conspiracy I tell you!    ;)  How good can this new Study Bible be?!?! 

When we do family study at our house we're already using The Apologetics Study Bible (which uses a very literal HCSB translation), the Archaeological Study Bible (which uses the NIV translation), my personal no frills attached ESV bible AND The IVP Dictionary of the New Testament: A One-Volume Compendium of Contemporary Biblical Scholarship...  If I try to add yet another book to each study it will take three days to read each chapter AND I'll have to talk the wife into having another child or someone is going to have to read two! lol  :P


Honestly though, what is it that is getting you guys so excited about this study bible?  It is just the Lutheran point of view stuff or is there something else?
Title: Re: The Lutheran Study Bible
Post by: Dan Fienen on September 11, 2009, 03:32:32 PM
There has not been much this summer to be happily excited about on the Lutheran front this summer.  Any port in a storm, any excuse to get a little happily worked up.

Dan
Title: Re: The Lutheran Study Bible
Post by: Weedon on September 13, 2009, 09:27:19 PM
I've barely had time since I got mine to skim it, but everything I've noted in it has been cheering.  I want to write up a detailed comment on its features, but it will have to wait.  In the meantime, though, add me to the list of those who are blown away by this fabulous resource! 
Title: Re: The Lutheran Study Bible
Post by: Matt Staneck on September 13, 2009, 09:32:37 PM
Pr. McCain mis(quoted) me in his blog post about reactions.  I actually stated "The SMP Seminarian and I" which would mean my Pops...so not just any other seminarian as it seems in my revised edition quote.  How very unlike the scholarly work of CPH on this to detract from the original!

Just bein a goof, the quote works better as revised.

M. Staneck
Title: Re: The Lutheran Study Bible
Post by: Steven Tibbetts on September 14, 2009, 02:06:39 AM
At Zion (the little ELCA parish on Peoria's South Side) this morning 45 gathered for worship.  New in the Narthex was a display for the pre-publication ordering of TLSB and I, uh, encouraged folks to check it out -- for themselves and for loved ones.  (Time to replace that paperback copy of "The Way" you've been bringing to Bible studies...)  Already had my name on the sign-up sheet.  4 more added today.  All large-print editions.  Several others are thinking about it. 

Oh, there was one request for an edition with a pretty blue cover like AFP's. 

Pax, Steven+
Title: Re: The Lutheran Study Bible
Post by: Edward Engelbrecht on September 14, 2009, 08:39:23 AM
There has not been much this summer to be happily excited about on the Lutheran front this summer.  Any port in a storm, any excuse to get a little happily worked up.

Dan

No doubt, this is true for some folks. However, I think it's more than a summer phenomenon. As I noted in an earlier post, the desire for a new Study Bible in the LCMS goes back at least to 2001. At CPH, requests for the new Study Bible have been the most common question from customers for several years now. This is a highly anticipated book, hence the joy over its release.

Lutherans have never had a book like this in English. Arguably, the earlier Lutheran Study Bibles (German and Latin) did not include a similar set of features or notes, nor were they accessible for lay people or affordable for many pastors since they were printed as large folio volumes. The CSSB, while a great resource, always spoke "bland evangelical," not Law-and-Gospel Lutheran. These are some of the reasons people are celebrating the release.

Title: Re: The Lutheran Study Bible
Post by: mariemeyer on September 14, 2009, 10:20:28 AM
Question to those who have the new Lutheran Study Bible.  What meaning do the notes give to kephale, particularly in I Cor. 11?

Marie Meyer
Title: Re: The Lutheran Study Bible
Post by: James Gustafson on September 14, 2009, 10:27:14 AM
There has not been much this summer to be happily excited about on the Lutheran front this summer.  Any port in a storm, any excuse to get a little happily worked up.

Dan

No doubt, this is true for some folks. However, I think it's more than a summer phenomenon. As I noted in an earlier post, the desire for a new Study Bible in the LCMS goes back at least to 2001. At CPH, requests for the new Study Bible have been the most common question from customers for several years now. This is a highly anticipated book, hence the joy over its release.

Lutherans have never had a book like this in English. Arguably, the earlier Lutheran Study Bibles (German and Latin) did not include a similar set of features or notes, nor were they accessible for lay people or affordable for many pastors since they were printed as large folio volumes. The CSSB, while a great resource, always spoke "bland evangelical," not Law-and-Gospel Lutheran. These are some of the reasons people are celebrating the release.

You should work at CPH, you've convinced me  :)  *off looking for my checkbook
Title: Re: The Lutheran Study Bible
Post by: Weedon on September 14, 2009, 10:52:15 AM
Marie:  "The Father is the head of Christ according to Christ's human nature..... The relationship does not make the Son inferior.  A husband and wife live in a relationship with different roles yet without implication of superiority or inferiority.  Chyrs:  'Had Paul meant to speak of rule and subjection... he would not have brought fofrward the instance of a wife, but rather of a slave and a master.'"
Title: Re: The Lutheran Study Bible
Post by: mariemeyer on September 14, 2009, 11:14:40 AM
Marie:  "The Father is the head of Christ according to Christ's human nature..... The relationship does not make the Son inferior.  A husband and wife live in a relationship with different roles yet without implication of superiority or inferiority.  Chyrs:  'Had Paul meant to speak of rule and subjection... he would not have brought fofrward the instance of a wife, but rather of a slave and a master.'"

I am familiar with Chrysostom's 26th homily on I Cor. 11:2.  He states that in this text believers are to understand that the name "Son" means "that He is of the same essence and that He is of God."  As applied to the Trinity, Chrysostom said kephale must imply "perfect oneness and primal cause and source."

Back to the original question, "What meaning do the Lutheran Study Bible notes give kephale in I Cor. 11?"

Marie
Title: Re: The Lutheran Study Bible
Post by: Weedon on September 14, 2009, 11:26:53 AM
That was the citation from The Lutheran Study Bible.  There's more, but I didn't have time to copy it all out.  Head:  That which is preeminent within a relationship.  The "head" is responsible for the actions of the body.  As a metaphor for the Church, Paul notes that the body has many parts with different roles (1 Cor. 12:12-26), the "head" of which is Christ.  So also here, the "head" is that which is preeminent, though not greater than the other parts, because the head is most prominent, visible, and necessary for the proper function of the rest of the body."  Then what I cited earlier.  p. 1962

There is also a fine summary titled "Men and Women in the Church" on p. 1972 from Gregory Lockwood's 1 Corinthians Commentary. 
Title: Re: The Lutheran Study Bible
Post by: mariemeyer on September 14, 2009, 12:28:53 PM
That was the citation from The Lutheran Study Bible.  There's more, but I didn't have time to copy it all out.  Head:  That which is preeminent within a relationship.  The "head" is responsible for the actions of the body.  As a metaphor for the Church, Paul notes that the body has many parts with different roles (1 Cor. 12:12-26), the "head" of which is Christ.  So also here, the "head" is that which is preeminent, though not greater than the other parts, because the head is most prominent, visible, and necessary for the proper function of the rest of the body."  Then what I cited earlier.  p. 1962

There is also a fine summary titled "Men and Women in the Church" on p. 1972 from Gregory Lockwood's 1 Corinthians Commentary. 

What page of the Lockwood Commentrary is given?    I have to check my copy, but there is page where Lockwood states a woman is under the authority of her husband, her father or some other man in the house.  He is rather dogmatic about the claim that kephale means authority over and applies it to marriage and the relationship of man and woman in the church.   

What I find confusing is that the early church fathers focus on the organic unity of the head and the body rather than the head being in authority over the body.  Since they lived closer to the time of Paul, I wonder if authors of the Lutheran study Bible reviewed what men like Cyril of Alexandria and Athanasius wrote about kephale.

Also interesting is that your post suggests the new Study Bible claims the "head" is responsible for the actions of the body.  When applied to I Cor 11, "man(husband) is head of woman (wife)"  I am off the hook in accepting responsibilty for my actions.  Is Christ responsible for the actions of the Church?

Marie
Title: Re: The Lutheran Study Bible
Post by: James Gustafson on September 14, 2009, 01:20:28 PM
...
Also interesting is that your post suggests the new Study Bible claims the "head" is responsible for the actions of the body.  When applied to I Cor 11, "man(husband) is head of woman (wife)"  I am off the hook in accepting responsibilty for my actions.  Is Christ responsible for the actions of the Church?

Marie

Ouch, zinger. 

If so, though, then I am led to suspect that some churches suffer from Tourette Syndrome and the head has no direct control over their spasms.  :P
Title: Re: The Lutheran Study Bible
Post by: Weedon on September 14, 2009, 02:12:54 PM
Marie,

You really should order a copy and then you can read the other comments in context.  I just don't have the time to copy them all out.  But the matter of the role of women in the church is not ignored and some very good information is provided in the study notes. 
Title: Re: The Lutheran Study Bible
Post by: Mike Bennett on September 14, 2009, 02:19:19 PM
I s'pose reaching nearly five full pages without topic creep is pretty good.  A record maybe.

Nevertheless, discussion lists of all kinds eventually remind me of the entry on Puddin'head Wilson's calendar:  "To a man with a hammer, everything looks like a nail."

Mike Bennett
Title: Re: The Lutheran Study Bible
Post by: mariemeyer on September 14, 2009, 04:11:55 PM
I s'pose reaching nearly five full pages without topic creep is pretty good.  A record maybe.

Nevertheless, discussion lists of all kinds eventually remind me of the entry on Puddin'head Wilson's calendar:  "To a man with a hammer, everything looks like a nail."

Mike Bennett


Meaning  ???

Marie
Title: Re: The Lutheran Study Bible
Post by: Edward Engelbrecht on September 14, 2009, 04:21:06 PM
...
Also interesting is that your post suggests the new Study Bible claims the "head" is responsible for the actions of the body.  When applied to I Cor 11, "man(husband) is head of woman (wife)"  I am off the hook in accepting responsibilty for my actions.  Is Christ responsible for the actions of the Church?

Marie

Ouch, zinger. 

If so, though, then I am led to suspect that some churches suffer from Tourette Syndrome and the head has no direct control over their spasms.  :P

Actally, the cited text speaks of the head-body relationship as a "metaphor." Be sure to read things in context before abdicating personal responsibility!

Oddly, though, Christ does take responsibility for the actions of the Church while on the cross. This is a good thing.
Title: Re: The Lutheran Study Bible
Post by: grabau14 on September 14, 2009, 04:42:51 PM
Deaconess Meyer,  TLSB p. 1972 "Men and Women in the Church"  uses pages 516-18,524-25, 540 from Dr. Lockwood's commentary on I Corinthians.  Just buy the book!
Title: Re: The Lutheran Study Bible
Post by: vicarbob on September 15, 2009, 08:30:17 AM
Had a conversation just yesterday with a good friend, a young ELCA pastor. He had received his copy of the CPH- Lutheran Study Bible. He was thrilled! He then went on to say that he is now prepared to return to AF the 10 copies of "our" Study Bible, still in its box. Why...one is a Lutheran Study Bible and the other isn't Lutheran or a study Bible. He then described how both offerings viewed John 3:16. The AF, said....What does this mean to you?  CPH offered commentary and referenced the Confessions.
I have at the ready and have used CPH previous offering, purchased it last year.....now I have to buy the new one! Perhaps CPH and the LC-MS would consider offering, at a reduced rate the new Study Bible to us in the ELCA and write-off the discount as "evangelism" in the mission field.
Just sayin',
A little broker, but more enriched
Bob
PS GOD bless Deaconess Meyer and the ministry to which she has been called. She is a voice which, MHO, the LC-MS needs to hear.
Title: Re: The Lutheran Study Bible
Post by: MSchimmel on September 15, 2009, 09:03:39 AM
... Perhaps CPH and the LC-MS would consider offering, at a reduced rate the new Study Bible to us in the ELCA and write-off the discount as "evangelism" in the mission field.
Just sayin',...

Perhaps a trade-in policy on the A-F LSB ... Cash For Clunkers?   ;D
Title: Re: The Lutheran Study Bible
Post by: Jeremy Loesch on September 15, 2009, 09:14:56 AM
VicarBob, glad to hear that your friend is pleased with TLSB.  My worship committee chairman forgot that he ordered one in the spring and just placed another order with our congregation, so he brought his copy that he received last week to me.  I've been very pleased with what I have seen and read.  Every page seems to have more and more good stuff on it than the previous page!  (I ordered a copy of my own and will give that copy to a member who is not quite able to afford a new study Bible at the moment.)

I'd like to address your PS for a moment if I may.  What you wrote was very fine and  very accurate.  But what wasn't written struck me.  She does have a voice that needs to be listened to.  But we also need to listen to the voice of Rev. Uttenreither and Rev. Weedon.  And perhaps we need to insist less on our voices being heard and focus more on our ears being opened to listen, not to our own voices, but to voice of God that comes to us in the reading of the Bible.  We need to hear, and accept, the Word of God.  I am not saying that we should not question what we hear, but we need to accept the Word and conform our lives to that Word.  Rather than making the Word fit our lives, which many Christians do, we need to make our lives fit the Word, regardless of whether I agree with what I read or hear.  

We, especially in the LCMS, need to hear the voices of our people.  But more than that, we need to hear the voice of the One who has spoken authoritatively, Jesus Christ.

Jeremy
Title: Re: The Lutheran Study Bible
Post by: Scott6 on September 15, 2009, 09:58:47 AM
We, especially in the LCMS, need to hear the voices of our people.  But more than that, we need to hear the voice of the One who has spoken authoritatively, Jesus Christ.

I would venture to suggest that perhaps the confusion you highlight, Jeremy, is at the heart of many of the problems the ELCA is currently experiencing.
Title: Re: The Lutheran Study Bible
Post by: Jeremy Loesch on September 15, 2009, 10:56:08 AM
Right on Scott.  We- humans, Christians, Lutherans- do not like what the authoritative voice of God has to say to us.  So we either ignore the authority or alter what the authority teaches until it is something more palatable to us.  Thus sayeth me, the chief offender.  But ignoring or re-imagining what the authority says does not lessen its authority.  Although some might think that it does.

It appears that some good things from Jefferson's School are rubbing off on you.   ;D  I didn't even bother to apply to UVa because I knew they wouldn't want me.  And I wasn't scientifically-minded so I didn't even bother with Tech either.  And I'm not snooty enough to hang out in Williamsburg with Bill and His Woman.  My wife is a Hokie and she says this:  UVa is hard to get into but easy to get out of.  Va. Tech is easier to get into but hard to get out of.

Jeremy 
Title: Re: The Lutheran Study Bible
Post by: vicarbob on September 15, 2009, 04:08:01 PM
Jeremy, I would respectfully disagree with the second part of your response. Not because of what you didn't say, but rather because of what you did say. I submit and reject the implication that the ELCA's understanding of those called to the Ministry of Word and Sacrament is in error. We (ELCA-LC-MS, EOC's,RCC) do not agree on this understanding of ordained ministry. Heck, the LC-MS does not agree with the RCC,EOC's in the three-fold pattern of Ordained Ministry. You do agree however, that those so called must be male. You do not agree that called males need to be celibate, as the RCC, but not the EOC's require.
What we can agree, I believe brother, is that it is a DIVINE Call and GOD calls who He calls to be His ministers. The 'ordering" is of human design in the Confessions, is it not? (Not so in the RCC/EOC's as it is also based upon Apostolic understanding of those called to be priests).
The good deaconess may be heard as one calling out of the wildness and there is where deacons (and deaconesses) are called to minister.
I am glad that we agree on the Study Bible and PERHAPS when I get my free copy.............
Pax,
Bob
Title: Re: The Lutheran Study Bible
Post by: Mike Bennett on September 15, 2009, 04:42:20 PM

You do not agree that called males need to be celibate, as the RCC, but not the EOC's require.


Just to add to the complications - though an Orthodox priest may marry before being ordained, he may not marry after ordination.  And Orthodox bishops are selected from among the monks, who are celibate.

Mike Bennett
Title: Re: The Lutheran Study Bible
Post by: vicarbob on September 15, 2009, 04:53:41 PM
Let's complicate things even more, in the RCC, Deacons may be married before Ordination, but not afterward, unless one receives special permission from the Pope. One such case happened in NY in the not too distant past. Married deacon with two very young children was widowed. The Pope granted his request (through the Bishop) to allow him to marry while in Orders, for the sake of the children!
Pax,
Bob
Title: Re: The Lutheran Study Bible
Post by: grabau14 on September 15, 2009, 05:30:42 PM
Vicar Bob writes: the 'ordering" is of human design in the Confessions, is it not?

If by "ordering" you mean ordination, then no, it is not by human design.

"If ordination is interpreted in relation to the ministry of the Word, we have no objection to call ordination a sacrament.  The miniistry of the Word has God's command and gracious promises: If Ordination is intrepreted this way, we shall not object either to calling the laying on of hands a sacrament"

Melanchthon's defintion of the sacrament-command of God and promises are associated with the OHM.

Who would've guessed that you would be a Missourian on this issue  ;D:  Regarding ordination we teach that it is not a divine but a commendable ecclesiastical ordinance (BS: Of the Public Ministry, 33)
Title: Re: The Lutheran Study Bible
Post by: Weedon on September 15, 2009, 05:35:10 PM
Although, Fr. Uttenreither, to be fair we must note the terms have broad and narrow meanings, and that when the Symbols cede to ordination the title of "sacrament" it is the broader term in view, while when the BS (what a God-given abbreviation, don't you think?) states that ordination is a commendable human ordinance the reference is to the narrow sense in view, merely the laying on of hands.
Title: Re: The Lutheran Study Bible
Post by: grabau14 on September 15, 2009, 05:52:16 PM
You are correct, Fr. Weedon.  You're such a Lutheran ;).

I just like to think in broad terms when it comes to the sacraments.  Plus my aversion to the 1943 Catechism's decree that there are only two sacraments makes me want to be "liberal" with regard to numbering.  BTW, Scaer's lectures on the 7 Sacraments of Rome and the confessions defintion of sacrament is a hoot- especially with regard to marriage.

To quote Scaer:  I personally find it very difficult to designate as a human rite or adiaphoron any ceremony in which God is the Giver and the Holy Spirit is the recipient, which can only be administered under certain stringent conditions, which carries a threat, which makes the acting participant in the rite responsible for the activities of the recipient of the rite, and which gives the recipient a gift which remains.
Title: Re: The Lutheran Study Bible
Post by: Scott6 on September 15, 2009, 08:07:32 PM
I didn't even bother to apply to UVa because I knew they wouldn't want me.

Sniff.  We do try to keep the riff and the raff off grounds.

 ;D

But what I do have to say is disturbing is to walk around and realize that I'm over twice the age of an incoming first year (don't call them freshmen!).
Title: Re: The Lutheran Study Bible
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on September 15, 2009, 08:11:37 PM
Let's complicate things even more, in the RCC, Deacons may be married before Ordination, but not afterward, unless one receives special permission from the Pope. One such case happened in NY in the not too distant past. Married deacon with two very young children was widowed. The Pope granted his request (through the Bishop) to allow him to marry while in Orders, for the sake of the children!
Pax,
The RCC has two orders of deacons: transitional and permanent. Permanent deacons may be married. I know two who are -- and the wife of one is an ELCA minister. The son of the other was a transitional deacon who was later ordained a priest.
Title: Re: The Lutheran Study Bible
Post by: Charles_Austin on September 16, 2009, 08:25:28 AM
Calvin's structure for the church in Geneva had four orders: minister, doctor, deacon and elder.
Title: Re: The Lutheran Study Bible
Post by: Dadoo on September 16, 2009, 08:47:06 AM
Brother Jed's church order at the Severeville Full Gospel Holiness Church had three orders: been bit, not been bit yet, and got bit and died.
Title: Re: The Lutheran Study Bible
Post by: Steverem on September 16, 2009, 10:08:55 AM
Brother Jed's church order at the Severeville Full Gospel Holiness Church had three orders: been bit, not been bit yet, and got bit and died.

[golf clap] Well played, Pastor Kruse! [/golf clap]
Title: Re: The Lutheran Study Bible
Post by: Erme Wolf on September 16, 2009, 10:59:56 AM
Brother Jed's church order at the Severeville Full Gospel Holiness Church had three orders: been bit, not been bit yet, and got bit and died.

That's Sevierville, Brother Kruse.  (Named for John Sevier, pronounced same as severe, first governor of the State of Franklin, soon known as Tennessee.)  But you'd be mighty welcome at the Voice of Victory Full Gospel Church, with or without your own copperheads.
Title: Re: The Lutheran Study Bible
Post by: Steverem on September 16, 2009, 11:01:06 AM
By the way,  there's a good review of TLSB on The Internet Monk's blog:  http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/some-thoughts-on-lutheranism-and-evangelicalism-a-brief-review-of-the-lutheran-study-bible

Title: Re: The Lutheran Study Bible
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on September 16, 2009, 11:01:46 AM
Brother Jed's church order at the Severeville Full Gospel Holiness Church had three orders: been bit, not been bit yet, and got bit and died.
What does TLSB say about those verses in Mark 16?
Title: Re: The Lutheran Study Bible
Post by: grabau14 on September 16, 2009, 11:21:35 AM
Brian,

Note:  Some manuscripts end the book with 16:8; while others include 9-20 immediately after verse 8.  A few manuscripts insert additional material after v. 14; one Latin manuscript adds after verse 8 the following: But they reported briefly to Peter and those with him all that they had been told.  And after this, Jesus himself sent out by means of them, from east to west, the sacred and imperishable proclamation of eternal salvation.  Other manuscripts include this same wording after verse 8, and then continue with verses 9-20.   TLSB, p. 1697

Mark's abrubt ending:  As the ESV text note for 16:9-20 shows, these verses do not appear in a number of early Greek manuscripts.  This likely means they were not part of Mark's original composition, which may have used a "suspended" ending that left readers wanting to learn more about Jesus and His deisciples.  The longer ending was perhaps added later to satisfy people's interests.  TLSB. p. 1653.

As to verse 18 (snakes), the note states:  God promises to protect us, but we should not tempt or test Him.  Cf. Acts 28:3.....

Now, just buy the book so you can read the rest for yourself.
Title: Re: The Lutheran Study Bible
Post by: revjagow on September 16, 2009, 11:56:29 AM
Brian,

Note:  Some manuscripts end the book with 16:8; while others include 9-20 immediately after verse 8.  A few manuscripts insert additional material after v. 14; one Latin manuscript adds after verse 8 the following: But they reported briefly to Peter and those with him all that they had been told.  And after this, Jesus himself sent out by means of them, from east to west, the sacred and imperishable proclamation of eternal salvation.  Other manuscripts include this same wording after verse 8, and then continue with verses 9-20.   TLSB, p. 1697

Mark's abrubt ending:  As the ESV text note for 16:9-20 shows, these verses do not appear in a number of early Greek manuscripts.  This likely means they were not part of Mark's original composition, which may have used a "suspended" ending that left readers wanting to learn more about Jesus and His deisciples.  The longer ending was perhaps added later to satisfy people's interests.  TLSB. p. 1653.

As to verse 18 (snakes), the note states:  God promises to protect us, but we should not tempt or test Him.  Cf. Acts 28:3.....

Now, just buy the book so you can read the rest for yourself.

 :D
Title: Re: The Lutheran Study Bible
Post by: Dadoo on September 16, 2009, 12:04:50 PM
Brother Jed's church order at the Severeville Full Gospel Holiness Church had three orders: been bit, not been bit yet, and got bit and died.

That's Sevierville, Brother Kruse.  (Named for John Sevier, pronounced same as severe, first governor of the State of Franklin, soon known as Tennessee.)  But you'd be mighty welcome at the Voice of Victory Full Gospel Church, with or without your own copperheads.

With all the hysterians it is always good to know that there are some historians present as well.  :)
Title: Re: The Lutheran Study Bible
Post by: Dave_Poedel on September 16, 2009, 02:02:59 PM
By the way,  there's a good review of TLSB on The Internet Monk's blog:  http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/some-thoughts-on-lutheranism-and-evangelicalism-a-brief-review-of-the-lutheran-study-bible

WOW, that was a good read....and the iMonk et al expressed my great frustration that we have kept the amazing resources currently being produced by CPH the best kept secret out there.

With all of our sectarian craziness (and we are definitely experts at that art form) the theology "on the books" is awesome and amazing, and a wonderful gift to the Church Catholic.  As was so gently put, the LCMS has a real problem with "knowing" ourselves to be good, right and salutary.  As a friend from another of my vocational fields in an earlier life used to ask me" Don't you ever get tired of being right?"  My response was, "No", to which he replied "Well, I do".  That taught me a lesson in humility that was lacking in my medical knowledge and ability to apply it.  I have striven to carry that humility into my vocation as a Pastor, and many folks offer thanks and appreciation for that striving.  Perhaps I could find a way to share this striving, without getting full of myself as a result?  Nah, you all will never let that happen, for which I am thankful.
Title: Re: The Lutheran Study Bible
Post by: Daniel L. Gard on September 16, 2009, 02:13:20 PM
 Perhaps I could find a way to share this striving, without getting full of myself as a result?  Nah, you all will never let that happen, for which I am thankful.

Cool. Now I know what my purpose driven life is to be about: keeping Dave from getting to full of himself!  ;D
Title: Re: The Lutheran Study Bible
Post by: Rik on September 16, 2009, 03:32:54 PM
While I don't yet have The Lutheran Study Bible, I do have a copy of the 48 page Sampler.  It appears as thought TLSB has Biblical information not available anywhere else!!!  :D

On p. 16 of the Sampler, under "Reading Genesis" we are informed that "Bright orange, purple, and red fruit droop from branches like heavy drops of morning dew.  The trees bow with the weight, welcoming the glorious face of the sun.  Light glimmers through the branches stirring in the breeze..."

From what text do we get the colors of the fruit in the garden of Eden?  The Masoretic Text?  Or is that found in the Septuagint?

Or was this information determined from DNA samples from archeological finds?  Actually, no doubt, a church in Lutherland would have had samples of fruit from the original trees of the garden of Eden among their prized relic collections!

On a more serious note, I would venture to say that the more fiction is interjected, even into the commentary, the more it takes away from the non-fictional nature of Holy Scripture, making it all the easier for some to assert that it is all symbolic or poetic language anyway, and doesn't matter whether it really happened or not.

After all, if it weren't for "Adam Lay Ybounden" (15th century text), we wouldn't know that the forbidden fruit had really been an apple!

"Adam lay ybounden,
Bounden in a bond;
Four thousand winter,
Thought he not too long.

And all was for an apple,
An apple that he took.
As clerkes finden,
Written in their book..."


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adam_Lay_Ybounden

Title: Re: The Lutheran Study Bible
Post by: Dave_Poedel on September 16, 2009, 03:37:29 PM
 Perhaps I could find a way to share this striving, without getting full of myself as a result?  Nah, you all will never let that happen, for which I am thankful.


Cool. Now I know what my purpose driven life is to be about: keeping Dave from getting to full of himself!  ;D
As you were, Chaplain...
Title: Re: The Lutheran Study Bible
Post by: Weedon on September 16, 2009, 03:40:02 PM
Rik,

You have laid your finger on one area that I think TLSB is less than helpful:  those goofy literary attempts at intros.  The good stuff in each case starts with Luther's assessment of the various books - I've just found the "story like" intros to be a most odd addition.  Nevertheless, that's about all I've found to raise an objection to in the work so far...  

Dave,

Thanks for linking to Spencer.  That was a GREAT review and so danged right about the need to bust out of the Lutheran ghetto with this stuff!

Pax!

Title: Re: The Lutheran Study Bible
Post by: EarlOfOrmond on September 16, 2009, 03:59:21 PM
Me not.  I ordered the normal hardback.  Where's mine?!?!  >:(


 ;)
[[Yes, yes, Paul.  I know that it'll probably show up tomorrow.]]

I would raise *holy hell* with Pr. McCain if I were you, esp. since you have good eyes.  Give him and Pr. Englebrecht what for since you were slighted and haven't got your Bible.   ;) ;D

I believe Brother Yakimow is in a different shipping zone. Also, the distribution team is filling a lot of orders all at once. I think they are going out in the order the purchases were received. That may have affected the arrival time. I would be interested to read people's reactions to the book in this forum.

In Christ,

Rev. Edward A. Engelbrecht, STM
Concordia Publishing House
Senior Editor for Professional and Academic Books
and Bible Resources

General Editor for The Lutheran Study Bible

I have the Augsburg Fortress version.  There is some good stuff in it, outside of the fact that the NRSV is not my preferred translation, but a great deal of the commentary, especially where homosexuality is concerned, is VERY revisionist and in some cases (1 Cor 6) directly contradicts the NRSV text.

Also, the "gender-neutrality" gets up my pipe.  Like the ELW, it refuses to assign a male pronoun to God the Father.

It's now sitting on my shelf, where it will probably remain.  I prefer my original Concordia Self-Study Bible, my REB Oxford Study Bible and my ESV Study Bible (even though it weighs a ton).

I haven't ordered the CPH version yet, but it's almost inevitable that I will.

My big gripe with BOTH versions: no Apocrypha/Deuterocanon, which I don't get, since both ESV and NRSV translate them.
Title: Re: The Lutheran Study Bible
Post by: Scott6 on September 16, 2009, 04:47:21 PM
My big gripe with BOTH versions: no Apocrypha/Deuterocanon, which I don't get, since both ESV and NRSV translate them.

More good things may be in store...

From the CPH website FAQ on TLSB:

Does The Lutheran Study Bible include the Apocrypha?
No, it does not, though it does contain an explanation of the history between the two Testaments and an explanation of the books that were written during this time and traditionally included in Lutheran Bibles since the first edition of Luther’s Bible in 1534, continuing up the time that The Missouri Synod moved from German to English, at which time, the Apocrypha was no longer included. We did not feel it was wise to try to reintroduce these books to the English speaking Lutheran Church by including them in The Lutheran Study Bible since the vast majority of Lutherans are entirely unfamiliar with them. Rather, we are considering producing a separate volume detailing what these books are, offering more extensive history and background for them and including the books themselves. This will be a better way to introduce Lutherans to the heritage of including these books, which Luther said in his Bible that thought they are not canonical like the other books of the Bible, they are certainly good for reading.

http://www.cph.org/cphstore/pages/resources/tlsb/faqs.asp

Amen and amen.  Let it be so.
Title: Re: The Lutheran Study Bible
Post by: Steven Tibbetts on September 16, 2009, 04:56:16 PM
My big gripe with BOTH versions: no Apocrypha/Deuterocanon, which I don't get, since both ESV and NRSV translate them.


A better defense, IMHO, than CPH's own would have been that the ESV translation of the deuterocanonical books was not available until early 2009.

Pax, Steven+
Title: Re: The Lutheran Study Bible
Post by: Mike Bennett on September 16, 2009, 05:20:04 PM

I haven't ordered the CPH version yet, but it's almost inevitable that I will.


Unsolicited advice for anybody over 40 who doesn't have a bad back:  Order the Large Print edition.

Mike Bennett
Age 65
Ordered the Standard edition
Needs to sit in very good light to read it
Title: Re: The Lutheran Study Bible
Post by: Iowegian on September 16, 2009, 05:57:25 PM
Thanks for linking to Spencer.  That was a GREAT review and so danged right about the need to bust out of the Lutheran ghetto with this stuff!

There was an interesting reply from Pr. McCain with some 'inside baseball' regarding some of the decisions behind TLSB here:

http://theblackeagle.org/blog/2009/09/imonks-lutheran-frustrations/

(Disclosure:  this is my blog site.)
Title: Re: The Lutheran Study Bible
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on September 17, 2009, 12:33:17 AM
My big gripe with BOTH versions: no Apocrypha/Deuterocanon, which I don't get, since both ESV and NRSV translate them.


A better defense, IMHO, than CPH's own would have been that the ESV translation of the deuterocanonical books was not available until early 2009.
From what I've read, it is Oxford Press who did the deuterocanonical books, not Crossways who did the ESV.
Title: Re: The Lutheran Study Bible
Post by: Edward Engelbrecht on September 18, 2009, 09:02:26 AM
Rik,

You have laid your finger on one area that I think TLSB is less than helpful:  those goofy literary attempts at intros.  The good stuff in each case starts with Luther's assessment of the various books - I've just found the "story like" intros to be a most odd addition.  Nevertheless, that's about all I've found to raise an objection to in the work so far...  

Dave,

Thanks for linking to Spencer.  That was a GREAT review and so danged right about the need to bust out of the Lutheran ghetto with this stuff!

Pax!



Thanks Rik and Will for your feedback on the introductions in The Lutheran Study Bible. Decisions about what to include in the introductions were based on research with Study Bible users. I’m not able to share specifics about CPH R & D but I think I can give you some perspective by telling you a few stories.

First Story
In 2005 when we published “Concordia: The Lutheran Confessions,” I was berated by a seminary colleague for compromising the purity of the Confessions and “dumbing down” the Confessions. After the book sold about 50,000 copies, I saw the same colleague again, who told me, “Well, of course, a popular edition of the Book of Concord makes sense. Perfectly obvious.”

Second Story
This week a friend stopped me to say how excited she was to get into the new Study Bible. She told me that she was gathering with some other folks to use it in morning devotions. They would be reading---get this---the introductions to the biblical books as devotions.

I invite you to ponder these two stories. They will help you understand. : )

In Christ,
Rev. Edward A. Engelbrecht, STM
Senior Editor for Professional and Academic Books
and Bible Resources

General Editor for The Lutheran Study Bible
Title: Re: The Lutheran Study Bible
Post by: James Gustafson on September 18, 2009, 09:15:29 AM
Rik,

You have laid your finger on one area that I think TLSB is less than helpful:  those goofy literary attempts at intros.  The good stuff in each case starts with Luther's assessment of the various books - I've just found the "story like" intros to be a most odd addition.  Nevertheless, that's about all I've found to raise an objection to in the work so far...  

Dave,

Thanks for linking to Spencer.  That was a GREAT review and so danged right about the need to bust out of the Lutheran ghetto with this stuff!

Pax!



Thanks Rik and Will for your feedback on the introductions in The Lutheran Study Bible. Decisions about what to include in the introductions were based on research with Study Bible users. I’m not able to share specifics about CPH R & D but I think I can give you some perspective by telling you a few stories.

First Story
In 2005 when we published “Concordia: The Lutheran Confessions,” I was berated by a seminary colleague for compromising the purity of the Confessions and “dumbing down” the Confessions. After the book sold about 50,000 copies, I saw the same colleague again, who told me, “Well, of course, a popular edition of the Book of Concord makes sense. Perfectly obvious.”

Second Story
This week a friend stopped me to say how excited she was to get into the new Study Bible. She told me that she was gathering with some other folks to use it in morning devotions. They would be reading---get this---the introductions to the biblical books as devotions.

I invite you to ponder these two stories. They will help you understand. : )

In Christ,
Rev. Edward A. Engelbrecht, STM
Senior Editor for Professional and Academic Books
and Bible Resources

General Editor for The Lutheran Study Bible


 ;D

God Bless Us, Every One.
-Tiny Tim
Title: Re: The Lutheran Study Bible
Post by: jebutler on September 18, 2009, 09:16:12 AM
Rik,

You have laid your finger on one area that I think TLSB is less than helpful:  those goofy literary attempts at intros.  The good stuff in each case starts with Luther's assessment of the various books - I've just found the "story like" intros to be a most odd addition.  Nevertheless, that's about all I've found to raise an objection to in the work so far...  

Dave,

Thanks for linking to Spencer.  That was a GREAT review and so danged right about the need to bust out of the Lutheran ghetto with this stuff!

Pax!



As for the Lutheran ghetto...

When I did my D.Min. ten years ago at Gordon-Conwell, my OT prof was Walter Kaiser, Jr., one of the truly great evangelical OT scholars. During one class, he looked over at me and asked, "Jim, why don't your seminaries let your professors write? You have so many great men: Walt Maier III, Paul Raabe, Horace Hummel, Andy Bartelt" (I was shocked that he knew them by name!). We need their knowledge. We need the Missouri Synod to provide theological leadership!"

I'm pleased to see that we are now doing that: the Concordia Commentary series, the Lutheran Study Bible, and the Chris Brown additions to Luther's Works. I think this stuff will have an opportunity to break out of that ghetto as others hear about it and use it.
Title: Re: The Lutheran Study Bible
Post by: Matt Staneck on September 18, 2009, 10:18:50 AM
First day of orientation President Meyer urged us to get off of this 70-acre plus gothic campus and to get to know the people and the area of St. Louis.  I took that as meaning, "Get out of the Lutheran ghetto with this stuff."  Develop relationships, be a friend to people, you know "ministry of presence" stuff.  Speaking of ministry of presence, I got assigned to do my institutional module at Laclede's Grove.  Hanging out with seniors, getting to know them, visiting with them, being a presence.  I was blessed to get a taste of that this summer and look forward to more of that in the weeks to come.

M. Staneck
Title: Re: The Lutheran Study Bible
Post by: Weedon on September 18, 2009, 12:48:53 PM
Be sure to look up Dr. Nagel and give him my kindest regards, Matt!
Title: Re: The Lutheran Study Bible
Post by: Weedon on September 18, 2009, 12:51:21 PM
Jim,

Amen!  I really think we need to get word out on the book that is the topic of this thread.  I mean, wow.  Just wow.  Today I did the extra reading Treasury suggests from Haggai and read through the whole set - the intros, the notes.  Those Law/Gospel notes that pull us into prayer all over the place.  They are one of my favorite features.  What a treasury this book is and what a blessing it will be to many!
Title: Re: The Lutheran Study Bible
Post by: jebutler on September 18, 2009, 01:06:08 PM
Jim,

Amen!  I really think we need to get word out on the book that is the topic of this thread.  I mean, wow.  Just wow.  Today I did the extra reading Treasury suggests from Haggai and read through the whole set - the intros, the notes.  Those Law/Gospel notes that pull us into prayer all over the place.  They are one of my favorite features.  What a treasury this book is and what a blessing it will be to many!

I was at the International Center for District Secretaries' meeting (saw your secretary, my old friend Tony Troup while I was there) and picked up my copy. I also got copies for our congregational president and chairman of our elders. I would have gotten more, but dang! is that book ever heavy!! I haven't had much time to look through it but I will.

You mentioned the Treasury. I confess (gladly!) that I misjudged it and that I am warming up to it. One thing that I found to be very helpful was finding a choir singing the canticles and liturgy on the Synod's website. That has added to my use of the book immensely; without it the music is just so much chicken scratchings to me.

I'd still like to see more quotes from other sources and less from the confessions (which I read yearly anyway) and I wish we had a different translation of the Bible, but those are quibbles. Overall, I begin to see in it what you see in it.
Title: Re: The Lutheran Study Bible
Post by: LCMS87 on September 18, 2009, 03:05:12 PM
You mentioned the Treasury. I confess (gladly!) that I misjudged it and that I am warming up to it. One thing that I found to be very helpful was finding a choir singing the canticles and liturgy on the Synod's website. That has added to my use of the book immensely; without it the music is just so much chicken scratchings to me.

Pr. Butler,

Somewhat off topic--I just received my TLSB on Wednesday and haven't had much chance to explore it yet--but I am interested in the recordings you mention.  I poked around the LCMS website a bit and didn't locate them.  Can you proved a link or some directions. 

I have a few members who expressed an interest in such recordings recently but hadn't been able to provide much help yet.

Thanks
Title: Re: The Lutheran Study Bible
Post by: LCMS87 on September 18, 2009, 03:07:21 PM
Duh, another look and I believe these are probably what you were referring to. 

http://www.lcms.org/pages/internal.asp?NavID=15581

Thanks for letting me know there was something to look for!
Title: Re: The Lutheran Study Bible
Post by: Rik on September 19, 2009, 03:13:13 AM
 ;D ::) ;D I'm just glad that (according to The Lutheran Study Bible [TLSB]) there was no known mauve-colored fruit in the G.arden of Eden.  ;D ::) ;D
Title: Re: The Lutheran Study Bible
Post by: Rik on September 19, 2009, 03:16:59 AM
Just a Question:
     For those who used the Concordia Self-Study Bible for some years,
how does the concordance in TLSB (CPH) compare with that of the CSSB?

Which is more complete?
Title: Re: The Lutheran Study Bible
Post by: Weedon on September 19, 2009, 10:20:13 AM
Jim,

I'm so glad to hear your re-evaluation of Treasury.  I truly couldn't imagine doing without it anymore.  And I too wish that more of the writings had been from other sources than the Symbols.  But then again, like today, the writing from the Symbol all by itself was quite refreshing. 

Pax!
Title: Re: The Lutheran Study Bible
Post by: Jeremy Loesch on September 20, 2009, 07:48:25 AM
Just thought I would chime in about Treasury of Daily Prayer...  (This isn't thread drift- Lutheran Service Book, Concordia: The Lutheran Confessions, TDP, TLSB are all awesome and I love them.)

There are times when I wish the writings were more from the Church Fathers and less from the Symbols, but as someone who spent more time in church history and exegetical theology, reading the Symbols is a great thing.  It's like a refresher course.  And following the additional readings is a great thing to do at lunch- eat a little lighter and spend time in the Confessions- a healthy diet. 

So basically, I agree with Will.

TDP has been great and it gives me something to continuously send to my members electronically.  I send them messages about what I found in TDP.

Jeremy
Title: Re: The Lutheran Study Bible
Post by: Edward Engelbrecht on September 21, 2009, 08:36:31 AM
On the topic of colors in Eden, it occures to me that Cranach painted his "Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden" in 1530, well into the Reformation. In the course of the painting, he assigned colors to the fruit, based on the colors of know fruit. I've never seen any evidence that this created a stir among theologians of the day. Apparently, it all seemed quite reasonable to do, as thousands of painters have done over the centuries.
Title: Re: The Lutheran Study Bible
Post by: Rik on September 21, 2009, 02:13:02 PM
On the topic of colors in Eden, it occures to me that Cranach painted his "Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden" in 1530, well into the Reformation. In the course of the painting, he assigned colors to the fruit, based on the colors of know fruit. I've never seen any evidence that this created a stir among theologians of the day. Apparently, it all seemed quite reasonable to do, as thousands of painters have done over the centuries.

My point was merely, "why say more than the Scriptures say?"  It is not meant to cause a stir at all.  Let us try to learn Scripture as best we can.  When a book is directed toward adults, not children, where's the need to comment on something that's mere speculation? 

And there is no benefit I know of to spread the idea that the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil was an apple, so why must some imply that such was the case--artists can probably choose from many fruit when depicting this account, even recognizing that the fruit back then might not have looked identical to modern varieties of fruit.

There are many common misquotes people assign to the Holy Scriptures.  One such example is that "Money is the root of all evil."  It is the "love of money", not money itself.

When coming out with an excellent Study Bible, why taint its many good points with unnecessary commentary?  That's all. 
Title: Re: The Lutheran Study Bible
Post by: Edward Engelbrecht on September 21, 2009, 03:31:27 PM
On the topic of colors in Eden, it occures to me that Cranach painted his "Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden" in 1530, well into the Reformation. In the course of the painting, he assigned colors to the fruit, based on the colors of know fruit. I've never seen any evidence that this created a stir among theologians of the day. Apparently, it all seemed quite reasonable to do, as thousands of painters have done over the centuries.

My point was merely, "why say more than the Scriptures say?"  It is not meant to cause a stir at all.  Let us try to learn Scripture as best we can.  When a book is directed toward adults, not children, where's the need to comment on something that's mere speculation? 

And there is no benefit I know of to spread the idea that the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil was an apple, so why must some imply that such was the case--artists can probably choose from many fruit when depicting this account, even recognizing that the fruit back then might not have looked identical to modern varieties of fruit.

There are many common misquotes people assign to the Holy Scriptures.  One such example is that "Money is the root of all evil."  It is the "love of money", not money itself.

When coming out with an excellent Study Bible, why taint its many good points with unnecessary commentary?  That's all. 

Actually, The Lutheran Study Bible is designed with children in mind, not just adults. The foreword states,
 
“In the Lutheran Church, a broad range of readers use study Bibles. Users vary in age from thirteen-year old confirmation students who may be reading the Bible for the first time, to mature pastors with a master’s degree in theology. We have tried to provide a resource that could offer help to this broad readership. For example, readers who are new to the Bible will likely appreciate the overviews that appear on the first page of each introduction to a biblical book. Mature students may appreciate the citations of Luther and other Church Fathers that appear in the introductions and notes” (pp. xi—xii).

I’m not sure I understand why the mention of colors is so surprising. Genesis 2:9 states that “the Lord God made to spring up every tree that is pleasant to the sight and good for food.” “Every” would seem to include the apples, apricots, pomegranates, etc. that were known to be eaten in the ancient Near East. I’m not sure I understand why mentioning their colors would be a problem.

Anyway, peace to you.
Title: Re: The Lutheran Study Bible
Post by: Dave_Poedel on October 15, 2009, 09:30:23 AM
Now that I have had some time with my new Larger Print Lutheran Study Bible, I wanted to share some impressions:

I have had the AF LSB for a couple of months and carried it around with me and in my car for a month or so and used it for my devotional reading and for study in sermon preparation.  I received my CPH version last week, so I have had less time with it.

1.  This is a BEAUTIFUL Bible!  I bought the Sangria color (I wondered what they called that color...it's the same as the Lutheran Service Book, The Lutheran Confessions, Reader's Edition, The Treasury of Daily Prayer and The Small Catechism) leather edition.  Very tough leather, not easily scratched.  While passing it around yesterday in Bible Class, one of the ladies dropped it, panic in her eyes....not to worry).  The binding appears to be sturdy.

2.  This is a LARGE Bible.  I like the fact that the Larger Print is a "magnified" version of the regular size page, so the proportions of the page are the same.  The type size is easy to read, especially in the notes on the bottom of the page.

3. The layout is very easy to navigate.  Obviously I have not had sufficient time to evaluate the study notes, but in my use for daily reading they appear to be useful and focused.

4. If there is any downside at all it is that the Bible is LARGE, which makes carrying around a deliberate action.  Maybe it's a bt bulky, but the volume of information contained make it pretty much self-contained for study.  A built in commentary means I can take it to a coffee shop and do study and reading without needing to bring another volume.

All in all, this is quite a comprehensive study Bible!  The inevitable comparisons to the AF NRSV Lutheran Study Bible are totally not fair.  The two Bibles are not in the same league at all; perhaps they were not intended to be.  The AF version is much smaller and thinner and the notes are nowhere near as comprehensive.  Being a Lutheran of a conservative flavor, I obviously favor the CPH study notes and commentary, but even that notwithstanding, the CPH offering is for me a much more useful Study Bible.

Title: Re: The Lutheran Study Bible
Post by: revjagow on October 15, 2009, 09:45:53 AM
Thanks, Padre!

I knew the excitement was justified.  I'm planning on promoting this at our church and putting a big order into CPH so that people get their editions in time for Christmas.

As a follow up, I'm planning to launch into a year covering the "Bible Essentials" all through next year as a way to increase literacy in the Word and get people into devotional reading too. 
Title: Re: The Lutheran Study Bible
Post by: MSchimmel on October 15, 2009, 11:56:45 AM
I received mine two days ago and have been spending a lot of time with it.

Based on some early reviews I switched my order to the larger print version with the black leather binding - and for a bible to spend a lot of time with I'm very glad I got the larger print!  It is very readable - but it is hardly what I think of when I think of LARGE print books.  I estimate that the text is about 10pt and the notes are about 8pt.

It is however, a quite large book and not so readily carried around - so I think I may actually buy one of the standard versions to have with me even if I use the big one more in regular study and prayer.

I'm waiting for the promotional pack to arrive at the church so I can put together a group buy for members of the congregation.  We are currently doing the Essential 100 Challenge and will finish that up about Thanksgiving - I'd like to introduce this as the next way to get folks digging into the Word on a regular basis.
Title: Re: The Lutheran Study Bible
Post by: LCMS87 on October 15, 2009, 12:37:59 PM
[McCain mode on]

Just a note for those planning a "big buy."  The pre-publication price, $20.00 savings on regular and bonded leather editions and $25.00 savings on genuine leather editions, ends 31 October.  Those savings are reduced by $5.00 thereafter.  (I can't tell for certain, but it doesn't look like CPH will begin to charge list price until at least after Christmas.)

Through 24 December CPH is also offering free shipping on orders over $75.00, so it doesn't take more that two or three TLSB's to take advantage of that offer.

Since there's no economic benefit to accumulating a big order, it might be worth inviting orders right away and then having a second deadline with the smaller discount later on.  (From my parish experience, we had far more orders for the thumb indexed than the regular edition, and had about the same number of orders for the larger print as for the thumb-indexed edition.)

One more thing.  The larger print edition has been selling much more quickly than anticipated.  The standard binding of the larger print edition sold out last week.  More are being printed and are expected 11 December.

[McCain mode off]
Title: Re: The Lutheran Study Bible
Post by: ghp on October 15, 2009, 02:28:06 PM
I received mine two days ago and have been spending a lot of time with it.

Based on some early reviews I switched my order to the larger print version with the black leather binding - and for a bible to spend a lot of time with I'm very glad I got the larger print!  It is very readable - but it is hardly what I think of when I think of LARGE print books.  I estimate that the text is about 10pt and the notes are about 8pt.


The text in the larger print TLSB is 10.65pt. By comparison, the regular print version has 9pt type.

For me, the extra weight & size/bulk was easily worth it to get the bigger type and (especially) the better/thicker paper.

Title: Re: The Lutheran Study Bible
Post by: EarlOfOrmond on October 15, 2009, 02:34:21 PM
I just got mine today.

My first thought is "Wow."
Title: Re: The Lutheran Study Bible
Post by: Pilgrim on October 15, 2009, 03:40:27 PM
Question: Does The Lutheran Study Bible (CPH), include or have an edition that includes the Apocrypha?

Pr. Tim Christ
Title: Re: The Lutheran Study Bible
Post by: Scott6 on October 15, 2009, 03:45:40 PM
Question: Does The Lutheran Study Bible (CPH), include or have an edition that includes the Apocrypha?

Pr. Tim Christ

From the FAQ:

Does The Lutheran Study Bible include the Apocrypha?
No, it does not, though it does contain an explanation of the history between the two Testaments and an explanation of the books that were written during this time and traditionally included in Lutheran Bibles since the first edition of Luther’s Bible in 1534, continuing up the time that The Missouri Synod moved from German to English, at which time, the Apocrypha was no longer included. We did not feel it was wise to try to reintroduce these books to the English speaking Lutheran Church by including them in The Lutheran Study Bible since the vast majority of Lutherans are entirely unfamiliar with them. Rather, we are considering producing a separate volume detailing what these books are, offering more extensive history and background for them and including the books themselves. This will be a better way to introduce Lutherans to the heritage of including these books, which Luther said in his Bible that thought they are not canonical like the other books of the Bible, they are certainly good for reading.

http://www.cph.org/cphstore/pages/resources/tlsb/faqs.asp
Title: Re: The Lutheran Study Bible
Post by: James Thomas Sharp on October 15, 2009, 04:14:33 PM
Can someone who owns the Bible please explain to me what the Great "The" Lutheran Study Bible Twitter/Facebook Dustup of '09 is about?  Supposedly the note on Exodus 7:17 is chock full o' heresy?
Title: Re: The Lutheran Study Bible
Post by: Scott6 on October 15, 2009, 04:21:36 PM
Can someone who owns the Bible please explain to me what the Great "The" Lutheran Study Bible Twitter/Facebook Dustup of '09 is about?  Supposedly the note on Exodus 7:17 is chock full o' heresy?

Wasn't aware of the twittering debate, but the note compares the Nile being turned into blood with Joel 2:31 where the moon is turned into blood.  I'm guessing it uses this to indicate that biblical language sometimes is figural and not literal and then says: "...thus it was not a chemical change into real blood, but a change in appearance, possibly because of red algae."

So there you go.
Title: Re: The Lutheran Study Bible
Post by: Michael Slusser on October 15, 2009, 04:25:37 PM
. . . traditionally included in Lutheran Bibles since the first edition of Luther’s Bible in 1534, continuing up the time that The Missouri Synod moved from German to English, at which time, the Apocrypha was no longer included. We did not feel it was wise to try to reintroduce these books to the English speaking Lutheran Church by including them in The Lutheran Study Bible since the vast majority of Lutherans are entirely unfamiliar with them. http://www.cph.org/cphstore/pages/resources/tlsb/faqs.asp

Thanks, Scott. . . . whereas Chronicles, Nahum, and Proverbs are very familiar to all  :D  It's a pity; this would have been a good opportunity to reconnect with Lutheran tradition. It would also have facilitated conversation with the RC and Orthodox churches who never moved from German to English and consequently never "lost" them  ;D

Peace,
Michael
Title: Re: The Lutheran Study Bible
Post by: Michael Slusser on October 15, 2009, 04:31:48 PM
Can someone who owns the Bible please explain to me what the Great "The" Lutheran Study Bible Twitter/Facebook Dustup of '09 is about?  Supposedly the note on Exodus 7:17 is chock full o' heresy?

Wasn't aware of the twittering debate, but the note compares the Nile being turned into blood with Joel 2:31 where the moon is turned into blood.  I'm guessing it uses this to indicate that biblical language sometimes is figurally and not literally and then says: "...thus it was not a chemical change into real blood, but a change in appearance, possibly because of red algae."

So there you go.

Do they say anything about Exod. 7:22 "But the magicians of Egypt did the same by their secret arts"? See also 8:7. Only in 8:18 do Moses and Aaron achieve a little separation from their adversaries. Curious!

Peace,
Michael
Title: Re: The Lutheran Study Bible
Post by: Scott6 on October 15, 2009, 04:36:52 PM
Can someone who owns the Bible please explain to me what the Great "The" Lutheran Study Bible Twitter/Facebook Dustup of '09 is about?  Supposedly the note on Exodus 7:17 is chock full o' heresy?

Wasn't aware of the twittering debate, but the note compares the Nile being turned into blood with Joel 2:31 where the moon is turned into blood.  I'm guessing it uses this to indicate that biblical language sometimes is figurally and not literally and then says: "...thus it was not a chemical change into real blood, but a change in appearance, possibly because of red algae."

So there you go.

Do they say anything about Exod. 7:22 "But the magicians of Egypt did the same by their secret arts"? See also 8:7. Only in 8:18 do Moses and Aaron achieve a little separation from their adversaries. Curious!

Peace,
Michael

Well, it references the note to vs. 11 which points out that the magicians used incantations and sleight of hand.  The note for 7:22 also indicates that they plied their arts on water that had remained unaffected, and it references vs. 24 for such water.

The note to 8:18 reads: "The Egyptian magicians displayed the impotence of their secret arts next to the creative power of the true God.  See note, 7:11."

In its summary of 8:16-19, it says: "The plague of gnats is more intense than the previous plagues, and the magicians concede that there is a God greater than the ones they serve.  God's judgment increases in magnitude as this plague drives Pharaoh and his magicians toward despair."  It continues, but that's enough for now.
Title: Re: The Lutheran Study Bible
Post by: Michael Slusser on October 15, 2009, 04:47:50 PM
Well, it references the note to vs. 11 which points out that the magicians used incantations and sleight of hand.  The note for 7:22 also indicates that they plied their arts on water that had remained unaffected, and it references vs. 24 for such water.

The note to 8:18 reads: "The Egyptian magicians displayed the impotence of their secret arts next to the creative power of the true God.  See note, 7:11."

In its summary of 8:16-19, it says: "The plague of gnats is more intense than the previous plagues, and the magicians concede that there is a God greater than the ones they serve.  God's judgment increases in magnitude as this plague drives Pharaoh and his magicians toward despair."  It continues, but that's enough for now.

Thanks, Scott. I've always enjoyed the way that, for a while there, Moses and Aaron are tied neck-and-neck (or rod-and-rod) with the magicians. It seems a good example of the way in which the acts of God don't always outshine the works of men, even if we know which are which.

Peace,
Michael
Title: Re: The Lutheran Study Bible
Post by: Steven Tibbetts on October 15, 2009, 05:35:00 PM

Since there's no economic benefit to accumulating a big order, it might be worth inviting orders right away and then having a second deadline with the smaller discount later on. 


The young woman on the CPH phone yesterday encouraged me to wait to do our order closer to the Oct. 31 date.  Of the 18 we've signed up for so far (with an average attendance of 43), only one is the "regular" print.

PAx, Steven+
Title: Re: The Lutheran Study Bible
Post by: EarlOfOrmond on October 15, 2009, 06:43:00 PM
Well, it references the note to vs. 11 which points out that the magicians used incantations and sleight of hand.  The note for 7:22 also indicates that they plied their arts on water that had remained unaffected, and it references vs. 24 for such water.

The note to 8:18 reads: "The Egyptian magicians displayed the impotence of their secret arts next to the creative power of the true God.  See note, 7:11."

In its summary of 8:16-19, it says: "The plague of gnats is more intense than the previous plagues, and the magicians concede that there is a God greater than the ones they serve.  God's judgment increases in magnitude as this plague drives Pharaoh and his magicians toward despair."  It continues, but that's enough for now.

Thanks, Scott. I've always enjoyed the way that, for a while there, Moses and Aaron are tied neck-and-neck (or rod-and-rod) with the magicians. It seems a good example of the way in which the acts of God don't always outshine the works of men, even if we know which are which.

Peace,
Michael

As someone who is occasionally afflicted with furunculosis, when I think of the plague of boils, it's hard for me to imagine anything worse.
Title: Re: The Lutheran Study Bible
Post by: LCMS87 on October 15, 2009, 08:28:20 PM

Since there's no economic benefit to accumulating a big order, it might be worth inviting orders right away and then having a second deadline with the smaller discount later on.  


The young woman on the CPH phone yesterday encouraged me to wait to do our order closer to the Oct. 31 date.  Of the 18 we've signed up for so far (with an average attendance of 43), only one is the "regular" print.

PAx, Steven+

By right away I meant before the 31st to take advantage of the best prices.  That means announcements this Sunday and next, which is pretty quick if it wasn't already in the plans.  

Our second deadline for the congregation is the 25th, the order will go in sometime that week.  (So far we've had 21 orders all told, and only one family bought more than one.  I'm very pleased with the response, and the folks who've been using the Bible are uniformly appreciative of it.)

Title: Re: The Lutheran Study Bible
Post by: Harvey_Mozolak on October 16, 2009, 06:50:50 AM
And if someone believes that each of the plagues was caused by God causing some natural phenomenon to occur, perhaps in larger quantities than usual….   I thought I was taught in the olden days that the Nile was turned into blood.  Loveliness of commentaries again.  Interesting.  Is it because God couldn’t do such a thing or just that so much blood is a blood bank unthinkable or maybe that it is unnecessary when you have algae standing by seasonally… but then the moon doesn’t have any water to turn reddish (at least not yet discovered) and what of other red presences or transubstantiations?   A holy hmmmm, as I call them.  Harvey Mozolak

Can someone who owns the Bible please explain to me what the Great "The" Lutheran Study Bible Twitter/Facebook Dustup of '09 is about?  Supposedly the note on Exodus 7:17 is chock full o' heresy?

Wasn't aware of the twittering debate, but the note compares the Nile being turned into blood with Joel 2:31 where the moon is turned into blood.  I'm guessing it uses this indicate that biblical language sometimes is figurally and not literally and then says: "...thus it was not a chemical change into real blood, but a change in appearance, possibly because of red algae."

So there you go.
Title: Re: The Lutheran Study Bible
Post by: Jeremy Loesch on October 16, 2009, 11:17:15 AM
We received our order the second week of October and dedicated them during the service on Oct. 11.  Following that service I presented a 'how-to' regarding TLSB.  All the people who ordered Bibles (17 people ordered 20 Bibles) stayed for the presentation as well as 3 who are still deliberating.  I was pleased with the presentation because a lot of the members are unfamiliar with study Bibles.  My fear was that if I handed them their TLSB and said "Have at it!" they might have been a little intimidated with all the stuff inside.  I pointed all the material in the reference section, the various essays, the concordance, transliteration guide, and then spent a good bit of time using John's Gospel as an example of what each book is like- the introduction, sidebar material, the text above the line and the study notes below, the icons.  It was good.  And I bought hi-liters from Staples for each person who bought a Bible as a present for them. 

Very pleased that all the people in my weekly morning and Sunday morning Bible class bought TLSBs.  Now I have my work cut out for me!  (But it is joyful work!)

I think a couple more people will buy the Bible individually before the 31st to take advantage of the special pricing.

I love my TLSB.

Jeremy
Title: The Lutheran Study Bible on urban ministry
Post by: Matt Staneck on October 19, 2009, 11:24:08 PM
Don't know how I missed this gem of an article!  Here are some excerpts:

"Paul's letter to the Philippians was addressed to urban Christians. A review of Philippi's history shows the close connection between early Christianity and the urban setting. It also affirms that the Church of today dare not neglect the city."

"...Urban ministry is more important than ever before. It is tempting for churches to give up on city ministries, where the work can be frustrating and even dangerous. The rewards can seem minimal, especially in terms of financial income form inner-city churches...Paul and the early Christians did not avoid the cities...Today's churches need to meet the challenges of city work...Perhaps as never before amid the concrete, brick, and steel of urban life, we are faced with a wide-open field ripe for the harvest!"

DYNAMITE.  Much appreciated.  This article comes fromt page 2033 in Paul's letter to the Philippians.  Some cool background on the city of Philippi as well.  Great read.

M. Staneck
Title: Re: The Lutheran Study Bible/Urban Ministry
Post by: EarlOfOrmond on October 20, 2009, 12:58:12 AM
Living as I do in the Detroit area, I can say that the inner city definitely needs ministry.

I'm not sure how many of you have been to the Motor City in recent years (not many people go there without another reason to be there), but the city has an overarching feeling of sadness and hopelessness.  The problems of the auto industry are well-known, but they have a very corrupt city administration, a notorious crime rate (at one time it was the murder capital of the United States), burnt-out abandoned houses...it looks like something out of a "Terminator" movie.

Go out into the suburbs and bedroom communities, and things progressively get a bit better.  Go across the border to Windsor, Ontario and it's not just the fact that you're in another country; it's like a different world, even though the two cities are separated by a little over a mile of water.

I just did a quick check of the major Lutheran church web sites and unfortunately the Lutheran presence is not very large in Detroit (I'm not counting suburbs):

LCMS: 21 congregations
ELCA: 15 congregations
WELS: 3 congregations
ELS: no congregations

39 congregations, in a city of 912,062 (and dropping)...and I'm not sure how active those congregations are.

Of course, there are other places just as much in need of Law and Gospel as the D.
Title: Re: The Lutheran Study Bible
Post by: Matt Staneck on October 20, 2009, 09:40:44 AM
Thanks for the info regarding Detroit.  I have ran into several students on campus who really want to be involved in urban ministry.  It is not a little number, I am hoping this desire for urban ministry in them is nurtured and continues to manifest during their time here at CSL.  Getting that Gospel out to these people living with the visibly extreme effects that a sinful world brings is of utmost importance.  As it is everywhere of course!

M. Staneck
Title: Re: The Lutheran Study Bible
Post by: George Erdner on October 20, 2009, 09:59:30 AM
And if someone believes that each of the plagues was caused by God causing some natural phenomenon to occur, perhaps in larger quantities than usual….   I thought I was taught in the olden days that the Nile was turned into blood.  Loveliness of commentaries again.  Interesting.  Is it because God couldn’t do such a thing or just that so much blood is a blood bank unthinkable or maybe that it is unnecessary when you have algae standing by seasonally… but then the moon doesn’t have any water to turn reddish (at least not yet discovered) and what of other red presences or transubstantiations?   A holy hmmmm, as I call them.  Harvey Mozolak

How does discovering the possible means by which God worked a miracle make it any less miraculous? No one gets bent out of shape about the fact that hail is a normal phenomena. But, it's a miracle when the hail come at exactly the right time, in a far stronger form than usual, and doesn't hit the Israelite's crops.

In Joshua 10, when the story is told "the Lord threw down huge stones from heaven on them as far as Azekah, and they died; there were more who died because of the hailstones than the Israelites killed with the sword.", that's probably a description of a meteor shower. God made it happen at exactly the right time and at exactly the right place, which seems like a miracle to me, even if meteors falling are actually a nature event.

Why would God use flies, frogs, and locusts, which are a normal part of His creation to cause some plagues, and no one questions that the timing and severity of the plagues was miraculous, but asserting that the ancients perceived as blood a "red tide" that also miraculously came at just the right time and in unusual severity indicates that one has no faith in the Bible?



Title: Re: The Lutheran Study Bible
Post by: ghp on October 20, 2009, 11:15:03 AM

How does discovering the possible means by which God worked a miracle make it any less miraculous? No one gets bent out of shape about the fact that hail is a normal phenomena. But, it's a miracle when the hail come at exactly the right time, in a far stronger form than usual, and doesn't hit the Israelite's crops.

In Joshua 10, when the story is told "the Lord threw down huge stones from heaven on them as far as Azekah, and they died; there were more who died because of the hailstones than the Israelites killed with the sword.", that's probably a description of a meteor shower. God made it happen at exactly the right time and at exactly the right place, which seems like a miracle to me, even if meteors falling are actually a nature event.

Why would God use flies, frogs, and locusts, which are a normal part of His creation to cause some plagues, and no one questions that the timing and severity of the plagues was miraculous, but asserting that the ancients perceived as blood a "red tide" that also miraculously came at just the right time and in unusual severity indicates that one has no faith in the Bible?


Well, for one, the Bible uses the words "blood," "frogs," & "locusts." Why would we believe the plain, simple meaning of the latter two, but not the first one? The "ancients" (Moses, in this case) were inspired to write exactly what the Holy Spirit wanted them to write. When we start to try and interpret or nuance the plain & simple meanings, then we (subtly or not) shift the seat of final authority from Scripture to *us* and our interpretative/critical powers. That, then, introduces doubt, however subtly, into the equation. And doubt in this arena is bad, bad, juju...

Title: Re: The Lutheran Study Bible
Post by: George Erdner on October 20, 2009, 11:31:16 AM

How does discovering the possible means by which God worked a miracle make it any less miraculous? No one gets bent out of shape about the fact that hail is a normal phenomena. But, it's a miracle when the hail come at exactly the right time, in a far stronger form than usual, and doesn't hit the Israelite's crops.

In Joshua 10, when the story is told "the Lord threw down huge stones from heaven on them as far as Azekah, and they died; there were more who died because of the hailstones than the Israelites killed with the sword.", that's probably a description of a meteor shower. God made it happen at exactly the right time and at exactly the right place, which seems like a miracle to me, even if meteors falling are actually a nature event.

Why would God use flies, frogs, and locusts, which are a normal part of His creation to cause some plagues, and no one questions that the timing and severity of the plagues was miraculous, but asserting that the ancients perceived as blood a "red tide" that also miraculously came at just the right time and in unusual severity indicates that one has no faith in the Bible?


Well, for one, the Bible uses the words "blood," "frogs," & "locusts." Why would we believe the plain, simple meaning of the latter two, but not the first one? The "ancients" (Moses, in this case) were inspired to write exactly what the Holy Spirit wanted them to write. When we start to try and interpret or nuance the plain & simple meanings, then we (subtly or not) shift the seat of final authority from Scripture to *us* and our interpretative/critical powers. That, then, introduces doubt, however subtly, into the equation. And doubt in this arena is bad, bad, juju...



Speaking only for myself, I find that having to accept something that strikes me as clearly and obviously an example of ancient misunderstandings of the difference between actual blood, which is water with hemoglobin dissolved in it, and water that looks like blood because it has red algae in it that looks like hemoglobin as actually being blood makes having faith more difficult, if not impossible. I have no trouble reconciling that the Holy Spirit had Moses write what he and the people who were around at the time would understand in the context of their knowledge of the universe at the time.

I've seen the photographs of earth taken from outer space. I could no more accept as totally literal the requirement that I have to believe that the red tide God used as a plague on the Egyptians was actually mass quantities of Type A than I could accept that I had to believe that the sun revolved around the earth. If I have to suspend my disbelief over obvious metaphors, then that turns the real miracles, like the Resurrection, into the same sort of mythic fables as believing that the red tide was actually blood, or that the parting of the Sea of Reeds wasn't the result of a tsunami that God caused to happen at exactly the right time and place.
Title: Re: The Lutheran Study Bible
Post by: Dave Benke on October 31, 2009, 10:30:20 AM
Conversation.  Catechetically, we use the Small Catechism and Explanation from CPH for our kids.  Fine.  They're little folks at First Communion time, 8 to 12, but in Confirmation often in HS. 

Adults, however, come with such a varied background in Christianity and Bible as well as educationally that it's not possible to use a mega-tool like LSB.  TMI.  Way TMI.

So we are using a very easy to read New Testament - Good News, with a read-through and then theological commentary.   And - the ABS has versions that lead to the theological components of the NT with underlining and directives.  Kind of cool, especially since yesterday the passage on the lead-down list was Romans 3. 

My Anklage is that Lutheran stuff seems in general to be designed class-wise for the educated, and therefore elitist.  The Readers' Edition BOC is, to me an effort to address that in terms of the confessions.  Whatever one thinks of the scholarship and ideological positions taken in the book itself, the effort in my opinion is needed. 

Same would apply in terms of Bibles.  Now - a couple years from now the folks in the Adult Instruction units I'm teaching will hopefully be placed to read the information in LSB, so I may present them with one as they make their affirmation of faith.  But on the way to that day, I'm using ABS materials.

Dave Benke
Title: Re: The Lutheran Study Bible
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on October 31, 2009, 11:48:56 AM
Adults, however, come with such a varied background in Christianity and Bible as well as educationally that it's not possible to use a mega-tool like LSB.  TMI.  Way TMI.
What do you think of The Learning Bible especially with the CEV translation? It seems, like much of the American Bible Society stuff, to be geared towards those who are biblically illiterate.
Title: Re: The Lutheran Study Bible
Post by: luthersterotypicus on October 31, 2009, 02:30:30 PM

How does discovering the possible means by which God worked a miracle make it any less miraculous? No one gets bent out of shape about the fact that hail is a normal phenomena. But, it's a miracle when the hail come at exactly the right time, in a far stronger form than usual, and doesn't hit the Israelite's crops.

In Joshua 10, when the story is told "the Lord threw down huge stones from heaven on them as far as Azekah, and they died; there were more who died because of the hailstones than the Israelites killed with the sword.", that's probably a description of a meteor shower. God made it happen at exactly the right time and at exactly the right place, which seems like a miracle to me, even if meteors falling are actually a nature event.

Why would God use flies, frogs, and locusts, which are a normal part of His creation to cause some plagues, and no one questions that the timing and severity of the plagues was miraculous, but asserting that the ancients perceived as blood a "red tide" that also miraculously came at just the right time and in unusual severity indicates that one has no faith in the Bible?


Well, for one, the Bible uses the words "blood," "frogs," & "locusts." Why would we believe the plain, simple meaning of the latter two, but not the first one? The "ancients" (Moses, in this case) were inspired to write exactly what the Holy Spirit wanted them to write. When we start to try and interpret or nuance the plain & simple meanings, then we (subtly or not) shift the seat of final authority from Scripture to *us* and our interpretative/critical powers. That, then, introduces doubt, however subtly, into the equation. And doubt in this arena is bad, bad, juju...



Speaking only for myself, I find that having to accept something that strikes me as clearly and obviously an example of ancient misunderstandings of the difference between actual blood, which is water with hemoglobin dissolved in it, and water that looks like blood because it has red algae in it that looks like hemoglobin as actually being blood makes having faith more difficult, if not impossible. I have no trouble reconciling that the Holy Spirit had Moses write what he and the people who were around at the time would understand in the context of their knowledge of the universe at the time.

I've seen the photographs of earth taken from outer space. I could no more accept as totally literal the requirement that I have to believe that the red tide God used as a plague on the Egyptians was actually mass quantities of Type A than I could accept that I had to believe that the sun revolved around the earth. If I have to suspend my disbelief over obvious metaphors, then that turns the real miracles, like the Resurrection, into the same sort of mythic fables as believing that the red tide was actually blood, or that the parting of the Sea of Reeds wasn't the result of a tsunami that God caused to happen at exactly the right time and place.

This is surprising to me. After one passes through the Great Book of Genesis and has been through Creation, Flood, Noah, repopulation of the earth, and other encounters dealing with the devil, original sin, the cross, etc., etc., either the person has long abandoned the hopelessness of handling this or is willing to see the rest of the Book as more than just possible but, it is, what it is, including the blood in Ex. 4. That really is minor when comparing it to the great mountain ranges of faith it took to get to that point. The real-real-metaphor-real-real-metaphor train is a hard one for me to grasp, I don't care how much space you've seen.

If you are believing it because it makes sense to ya, ya really ain't BELIEVIN' it then, ar ya?
Title: Re: The Lutheran Study Bible
Post by: peter_speckhard on October 31, 2009, 02:53:46 PM
Ex. 7:17 is God telling Moses what to say to Pharoah. God tells Moses to say--  "Thus says the LORD, 'By this you shall know that I am the LORD: behold, with the staff that is in my hand I will strike the water is in the Nile, and it shall turn into blood.'"

So it isn't only a matter of what happened in vs. 20. To say that the Nile didn't turn to blood also affects our view of God's declaration of what would happen.
Title: Re: The Lutheran Study Bible
Post by: Harvey_Mozolak on October 31, 2009, 03:05:44 PM
yes. interesting, Peter, maybe more than interesting.  I can't resist asking if the words of God are ever in red in the OT?  But aside from that stupid remark on my part, you do with seriousness raise the bar on the issue.    Harvey Mozolak
Title: Re: The Lutheran Study Bible
Post by: Michael Slusser on October 31, 2009, 04:09:45 PM
Ex. 7:17 is God telling Moses what to say to Pharoah. God tells Moses to say--  "Thus says the LORD, 'By this you shall know that I am the LORD: behold, with the staff that is in my hand I will strike the water is in the Nile, and it shall turn into blood.'"

So it isn't only a matter of what happened in vs. 20. To say that the Nile didn't turn to blood also affects our view of God's declaration of what would happen.

Not forgetting that "the magicians of Egypt did the same by their magical arts" in vs. 22.

Peace,
Michael
Title: Re: The Lutheran Study Bible
Post by: luthersterotypicus on October 31, 2009, 05:39:11 PM
v. 22 "Okay, smarty pants. I am going to taker some of the blood water....and make it turn RED."

What a trick, since all the water was turned by Moses into blood.

Second option, is that God let them draw some clear and made it turn Red knowing this would harden Pharoah's heart...since he was not convinced by the first signs...nothing was ever going to be enough. Problem is v21 says all the water was turned to blood.

PASSOVER was already in the cards, there was not going to be a shuffle or a redeal on THAT.
Title: Re: The Lutheran Study Bible
Post by: Michael Slusser on November 01, 2009, 01:23:54 PM
v. 22 "Okay, smarty pants. I am going to taker some of the blood water....and make it turn RED."

What a trick, since all the water was turned by Moses into blood.

Second option, is that God let them draw some clear and made it turn Red knowing this would harden Pharoah's heart...since he was not convinced by the first signs...nothing was ever going to be enough. Problem is v21 says all the water was turned to blood.

PASSOVER was already in the cards, there was not going to be a shuffle or a redeal on THAT.

So when the Bible says they did the same thing, you think that it means they did something different; in other words, it doesn't mean what it says?

Or what do you think?

Peace,
Michael
Title: Re: The Lutheran Study Bible
Post by: luthersterotypicus on November 03, 2009, 07:35:48 PM
v. 22 "Okay, smarty pants. I am going to taker some of the blood water....and make it turn RED."

What a trick, since all the water was turned by Moses into blood.

Second option, is that God let them draw some clear and made it turn Red knowing this would harden Pharoah's heart...since he was not convinced by the first signs...nothing was ever going to be enough. Problem is v21 says all the water was turned to blood.

PASSOVER was already in the cards, there was not going to be a shuffle or a redeal on THAT.

So when the Bible says they did the same thing, you think that it means they did something different; in other words, it doesn't mean what it says?

Or what do you think?

Peace,
Michael

Now what do you think?

I reconciled v. 21 and 22. Your turn. Or are you suggesting v. 21 "turned all the water" meant something different?
Title: Re: The Lutheran Study Bible
Post by: vicarbob on November 04, 2009, 09:17:23 AM
OK, finally purchased my copy at pericope yesterday...very fine indeed...BUT the quality of the paper used for the pages???????
Will be referrring and using TLSB and the LSB today at Bible Study.
Pax
The PiT
Title: Re: The Lutheran Study Bible
Post by: ghp on November 04, 2009, 10:51:54 AM
OK, finally purchased my copy at pericope yesterday...very fine indeed...BUT the quality of the paper used for the pages???????
Will be referrring and using TLSB and the LSB today at Bible Study.
Pax
The PiT

The paper in the regular print edition is consistent with what I've seen in other Bibles (e.g., what I've got on my bookshelf, like my NKJV Thompson's Chain Ref Study Bible). It's thin, indeed. That's why I willingly upgraded to the larger print edition, despite the extra heft of that edition -- the paper is much nicer, IMO.
Title: Re: The Lutheran Study Bible
Post by: Michael Slusser on November 04, 2009, 11:00:10 AM
v. 22 "Okay, smarty pants. I am going to taker some of the blood water....and make it turn RED."

What a trick, since all the water was turned by Moses into blood.

Second option, is that God let them draw some clear and made it turn Red knowing this would harden Pharoah's heart...since he was not convinced by the first signs...nothing was ever going to be enough. Problem is v21 says all the water was turned to blood.

PASSOVER was already in the cards, there was not going to be a shuffle or a redeal on THAT.

So when the Bible says they did the same thing, you think that it means they did something different; in other words, it doesn't mean what it says?

Or what do you think?

Peace,
Michael

Now what do you think?

I reconciled v. 21 and 22. Your turn. Or are you suggesting v. 21 "turned all the water" meant something different?

I don't think that you did reconcile v. 21 and 22. In v. 21, you say Moses and Aaron turned all the water to blood, in a very literal sense; but in v. 22, where the Bible says the magicians of Egypt did "the same thing," you reduce that to claiming that it means they "turned" the water red by pointing to what Moses had already done. That isn't a reconciliation as much as a choice that the same words mean one thing in v. 21, something different in v. 22. The Bible makes no such distinction between the two actions, and I'd like to know where you get yours.

Peace,
Michael
Title: Re: The Lutheran Study Bible
Post by: olarmy02 on November 04, 2009, 11:05:50 AM
OK, finally purchased my copy at pericope yesterday...very fine indeed...BUT the quality of the paper used for the pages???????
Will be referrring and using TLSB and the LSB today at Bible Study.
Pax
The PiT

The paper in the regular print edition is consistent with what I've seen in other Bibles (e.g., what I've got on my bookshelf, like my NKJV Thompson's Chain Ref Study Bible). It's thin, indeed. That's why I willingly upgraded to the larger print edition, despite the extra heft of that edition -- the paper is much nicer, IMO.

I just got my copy.  I bought the regular print hardback.  Overall I am impressed!  It is my first choice among my library of study bibles.  Fortunately at 35y.o. I still have better than 20/20 vision otherwise the print might be a touch too small.  I might have to upgrade to the large print later, but the content is great!  Good job to all that worked on it.  Is there an e-version of this?
Title: Re: The Lutheran Study Bible
Post by: Iowegian on November 04, 2009, 11:59:32 AM
My Anklage is that Lutheran stuff seems in general to be designed class-wise for the educated, and therefore elitist.  The Readers' Edition BOC is, to me an effort to address that in terms of the confessions.  Whatever one thinks of the scholarship and ideological positions taken in the book itself, the effort in my opinion is needed. 

Same would apply in terms of Bibles.  Now - a couple years from now the folks in the Adult Instruction units I'm teaching will hopefully be placed to read the information in LSB, so I may present them with one as they make their affirmation of faith.  But on the way to that day, I'm using ABS materials.

This is something I've noticed that's even boiling down to Sunday School/Children's materials:  both CPH and A-F are offering some products marketed as "Chlidren's Materials" that rely on NRSV or ESV translations, which is a pretty tough reading level for kids of that age.

I would hope that the CPH Lutheran Study Bible will inspire a few 'derivative works' aimed at younger or less-experience readers, but I don't know how that jives with copyright issues and the ESV.  (Pr. McCain noted elsewhere that some of the things people have noted about the "Lutheran Study Bible" in terms of marketing and use come from licensing issues with Crossway Publishing - they don't want CPH producing materials that would be direct competitors of their own, such as naming the Bible "The Lutheran Study Bible" instead of other names - or including the "ESV" name -  because Crossway produced "The ESV Study Bible".  I'm sure similar issues will exist with other materials.)

Back to children's materials - our congregation has been using story bibles from the "Zondervan Kids" line that include some unfortunate material that thankfully the Sunday School curriculum skips.  It is a little troubling, though, to read one of the stories with your kids and have to explain around the questions added to the stories like I found last night - What should we do to please God? included with stories taken from the OT.  (There's a careful line to walk there.)
Title: Re: The Lutheran Study Bible
Post by: mariemeyer on November 04, 2009, 03:48:11 PM
Now that Bill and I have the new Lutheran Study Bible I attempted to navigate notes regarding the husband/wife relationship and the relationship of men and women in the church. I followed the notes on Ephesians 5:22 carefully. If there are errors in what I copied they are due to my becoming somewhat confused as I flipped from note to note and tried to follow how or why the marriage relationship was applicable to all men and women in the church.   

Since the study Bible uses the ESV translation, the text separates vs. 21 from vs. 22-24. The study notes on verses 1-21 omit any reference Paul's directive in 21, "submitting to one another out of reference to Christ."

The notes on 22 begin, "Submission is not mutual, but appropriate to each relationship.  Within the marriage relationship, the wife 'submits,' taking the place God has given her (I Peter 3:1-6).   

There follows directives that send the reader to texts and from there to still other notes. "See notes on Genesis 1:26-28, I Tim. 2:13, Ti. 2:5., "see also page 1904, as to the Lord,. She is to view her husband as an image and representative of Christ. See p. 1972. "

In following the directives the reader will understand why the mutual submission of Ephesians does not apply to marriage.

Directive 1: a Notes on Genesis state that man and woman are in the image of God, "yet there is a great difference between the sexes." 

Directive 1, b: . Notes on I Timothy:13 state... For, "What follows is an explanation of the prohibition given in v 11-12.  Adam was formed first. God ordained the roles of men and women at creation. Adam was created first and was given specific service (Gn 2:15). Eve was then created (Gn 2:21-22) as a worthy, compatible mate (see note Gn 2:18). This did not mean men are more important than women (Eph 5:22-33), but that God established different callings for them.The relationship between husbands and wives (I Cor 11:3, Eph.5:23-24),  set in place before the fall into sin, remains unchanged today. Thus the commands and prohibitions concerning men and women in this passage are not simply reflections of first century Jewish culture or Paul's personal opinions. Paul roots the practices of the Church is God's created order. See page 1291."   

Page 1291 is a one page essay on The Lord of Hosts and "the order of creation."  The essay concludes, "Resisting God's order in creation is like resisting gravity. ..Share the truths about God's good order and blessing with others. True wisdom works with the order God established (see pp 775-78) which the Heavenly Father provided through His Beloved Son, our Savior (John 1: 1-5).

Directive 1, c:  Notes on Ti 2:5 state, "Women are not prohibited from working outside their home but should be industrious at home in the family context. Cf Pr 31 10-31 for an example to follow and I Tim 5:13-14 for an example to avoid. submissive see notes Eph. 5:21, 22."

Directive 1, d  "see also one page 1904, as to the Lord. 
(Note: When I read page 1904 I was unable to find anything on the page that directed wives to see their husband as an image and representative of Christ.)

Directive 2. See p. 1972. P 1972 is a one page essay, Men and Women in the Church.  Since "the Greco-Roman culture of Paul's day frequently allowed women a leading role in religious rites, apostolic prohibitions on women were 'counter cultural.'"  The reader is reminded that in the church God established an order which we are not to criticize.  Men and women have their "appointed places"  "Thus Paul's command that women be silent in the church (I Cor. 14: 34) must be understood, in part, as countercultural and antisyncrestic. It is a command that distinguishes and separates the Christian church from other religions. Inspired by the Spirit of God, its roots are deep in the biblical revelation, which runs counter to the spirit and wisdom of the world....The Gospel provided the motivation for men and women joyfully to take their appointed places in God's order, especially in the church."

The one page essay refers the reader to the CPH Commentary on I Cor and other notes in the Lutheran Study Bible.

Following the above sequence on Ephesians 5:22 is, to sat the least. a challenge.  IMO they also reflect as bit of circular reasoning.

Marie Meyer



 
Title: Re: The Lutheran Study Bible
Post by: Harvey_Mozolak on November 04, 2009, 03:53:20 PM
Marie,  and the notes somehow read with more certainty, application, explanation and implication than the Scripture text...   Harvey Mozolak
Title: Re: The Lutheran Study Bible
Post by: ghp on November 04, 2009, 03:56:00 PM
OK, finally purchased my copy at pericope yesterday...very fine indeed...BUT the quality of the paper used for the pages???????
Will be referrring and using TLSB and the LSB today at Bible Study.
Pax
The PiT

The paper in the regular print edition is consistent with what I've seen in other Bibles (e.g., what I've got on my bookshelf, like my NKJV Thompson's Chain Ref Study Bible). It's thin, indeed. That's why I willingly upgraded to the larger print edition, despite the extra heft of that edition -- the paper is much nicer, IMO.

I just got my copy.  I bought the regular print hardback.  Overall I am impressed!  It is my first choice among my library of study bibles.  Fortunately at 35y.o. I still have better than 20/20 vision otherwise the print might be a touch too small.  I might have to upgrade to the large print later, but the content is great!  Good job to all that worked on it.  Is there an e-version of this?

IIRC, there are plans afoot for an electronic version (most likely in Logos/Libronix format, along with some sort of iPhone version as well) sometime in 2010. Specific details, though, have yet to emerge from McCain's basement bunker...  ;D
Title: Re: The Lutheran Study Bible
Post by: revjagow on November 04, 2009, 05:16:19 PM

Since the study Bible uses the ESV translation, the text separates vs. 21 from vs. 22-24. The study notes on verses 1-21 omit any reference Paul's directive in 21, "submitting to one another out of reference to Christ."

The notes on 22 begin, "Submission is not mutual, but appropriate to each relationship.  Within the marriage relationship, the wife 'submits,' taking the place God has given her (I Peter 3:1-6).   


That's odd - if I recall, in the Greek- verse 22 does not even contain the word "submit" - it just reads "wives to your husbands" or something along those lines.  The word "submit" is assumed from the previous verse, so of course the two verses are connected (and that should be noted in the notes, I think).  Paul's primary goal is not to write about marriage in that section, but marriage is one example used in order to teach on the church and how we relate to one another - 4:1 - 6:9 is all about unity in the church.  5:1 &2 builds on Paul's teaching by introducing the thought "walk in love" and 5:1 - 6:9 is illustrating how we walk in love toward God and toward each other.

I understand why translators would put in a paragraph break.  Not because it starts a new section, but it does begin a new thought (translations that have a heading indicating a new theme drive me batty because from the text, the thought of "submission" is supposed to be carried through - the next three thoughts are connected to "walk in love" from 5:2).  Paul throws out the word "submission" to describe how we are to walk in love (the thought that begins with 5:1) and then writes how this works out in the life of the church by using illustrations from life, like husband/wife, parents/children and slaves/masters - each of those thoughts should start a new paragraph, even though they are all connected to verse 21.  Those are three different relationships with three different kinds of mutual submitting going on, but they are all examples of how we "walk in love" with each other. 

I agree with the note when it says there is a different kind of submitting in different kinds of relationships (marriage, master/slave, etc.), but I disagree that all submission is not mutual.  Verse 21 is connected to all the relationships Paul mentions and I would argue that submission is meant to be mutual in each one of them.  I would be more comfortable if the note were followed with another sentence that says something like - in Christ, all the baptized submit to one another and walk in love with one another regardless of gender, race, class, etc. - or something that puts the whole section in context.  Maybe that's already there in the introductory notes to the book of Ephesians, but since I just ordered my copy of TLSB last week,  so I'll have to wait a bit to check it out.
Title: Re: The Lutheran Study Bible
Post by: peter_speckhard on November 04, 2009, 07:36:48 PM
"Submit to one another" is a general command to Christians. Within the framework of Christianity, then, there are examples. It would be as though it said "Pay what you owe. Customers, pay for your purchases. Store owners, make sure you give the full amount for what you receive..." In other words, paying what you owe is the general Christian principle and gets applied equally but differently to Christian customers and Christian shopkeepers, neither of whom is more important in any given transaction. Submitting to one another is the general, Christian behavior. Wives submitting to husbands is no different than children submitting to parents-- they are both examples of the "submit to one another" principle in action among Christians. That, it seems to me, is what the paragraph break between vs. 21 and 22 seeks to make clear. It isn't saying that parents and children should submit equally to each other, nor is it saying wives and husbands should submit equally to each other. It is saying that our various vocations offer different applications of the same principle.

Marie, I'd very interested in what TLSB notes would say had you been in charge of the comments on Ephesians 5. Not in all kinds of detail, but just in general and in rough draft format, how would you improve it? 
Title: Re: The Lutheran Study Bible
Post by: Edward Engelbrecht on November 05, 2009, 08:55:25 AM

This is something I've noticed that's even boiling down to Sunday School/Children's materials:  both CPH and A-F are offering some products marketed as "Chlidren's Materials" that rely on NRSV or ESV translations, which is a pretty tough reading level for kids of that age.


Dear Chad,

Please find below a link to a page about the ESV readability rating, which is very helpful.

http://www.esv.org/blog/2005/08/readability-grade-levels/

In project research, I've used the scoring system they describe, having spent many hours reading with children at one of our Lutheran schools and performing evaluations on Bible texts. The idea that the NIV text is an easier text for early readers is common. But it is not supported by the research or by my experience in working with children. As I recall, the translations score about the same, with ESV coming in at a slightly more readable level. As evidence, I would also point out that Zondervan has come out with many special editions for lowering the reading level of their NIV translation.

That being said, I would add that the Bible is essentially a book for adults. Presenting it to children is a challenge and a special art, especially if you want to balance faithfulness with readability.

In Christ,
Rev. Edward A. Engelbrecht, STM
CPH Senior Editor for Professional and Academic Books
and Bible Resources
Title: Re: The Lutheran Study Bible
Post by: Iowegian on November 05, 2009, 09:36:10 AM
In project research, I've used the scoring system they describe, having spent many hours reading with children at one of our Lutheran schools and performing evaluations on Bible texts. The idea that the NIV text is an easier text for early readers is common. But it is not supported by the research or by my experience in working with children. As I recall, the translations score about the same, with ESV coming in at a slightly more readable level. As evidence, I would also point out that Zondervan has come out with many special editions for lowering the reading level of their NIV translation.

That being said, I would add that the Bible is essentially a book for adults. Presenting it to children is a challenge and a special art, especially if you want to balance faithfulness with readability.

Rev. Engelbrecht:

Thanks for the reply! 

The age group I was thinking about (the one I deal with mostly these days) is the 3rd grade and younger group ("young readers") which I agree is a tough one to balance between faithfulness and readability, particularly when kids can get "hung up" on words that we don't think are terribly important (for example, the musical instruments in the story of Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego).

Our congregation has been using various children's bibles - I can't speak to why they chose what they did - each of them with their own shortcomings.  (Like the Zondervan kids books that ask "What should we do to please God?", etc. that hint at understandings of Scripture that aren't Lutheran.)

If I could quietly float a discussion topic around the halls of CPH, I'd love to see projects that take the thoroughness of The Lutheran Study Bible and extract children's materials:  the "Law Gospel Notes" in particular really get at the meat of the issues presented in the Bible stories that could be used to "frame" lessons for children.  For example, the notes for Genesis 32 (God wrestles with Jacob) frames the chapter in terms of both Christ's suffering and our own struggles.

(Maybe we need more "Christ Centered" presentations of the OT stories for children?)

Just a few thoughts....
Title: Re: The Lutheran Study Bible
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on November 05, 2009, 09:47:31 AM
That's odd - if I recall, in the Greek- verse 22 does not even contain the word "submit" - it just reads "wives to your husbands" or something along those lines.  The word "submit" is assumed from the previous verse, so of course the two verses are connected (and that should be noted in the notes, I think).  Paul's primary goal is not to write about marriage in that section, but marriage is one example used in order to teach on the church and how we relate to one another - 4:1 - 6:9 is all about unity in the church.
You are right about v. 22 containing no verb. In fact, one has to go back to v. 18 for the main verb -- otherwise they are all participles in vv. 19-21. It can be diagrammed as:

Be filled with the Spirit (an imperative verb, i.e., a command)
     speaking ...
     singing and praising ...
     giving thanks ...
     submitting ...
          wives to their own husbands ...

"Submitting" like the other actions are dependent upon "be filled with the Spirit" (rather than "get drunk with wine"). The translations that make "Submit" or "Be subject" a command and/or separate v. 21 from what goes before (e.g., NRSV & NIV) lose the connection that I think is clear in the Greek. (ESV keeps the string of participles together.) What is harder to express in English and with paragraphs is the idea that "wives to their own husbands" is dependent upon "submitting to one another," which is dependent on the command, "Be filled with the Spirit".
Title: Re: The Lutheran Study Bible
Post by: James Gustafson on November 05, 2009, 10:20:39 AM
Mr. Thompson,  I think it it is self evident to everyone but you that you are receiving a calling from the Spirit for this mission in Christ, and in faithfulness that the Lord can provide, I look forward to purchasing and reading your finished product  ;)


In project research, I've used the scoring system they describe, having spent many hours reading with children at one of our Lutheran schools and performing evaluations on Bible texts. The idea that the NIV text is an easier text for early readers is common. But it is not supported by the research or by my experience in working with children. As I recall, the translations score about the same, with ESV coming in at a slightly more readable level. As evidence, I would also point out that Zondervan has come out with many special editions for lowering the reading level of their NIV translation.

That being said, I would add that the Bible is essentially a book for adults. Presenting it to children is a challenge and a special art, especially if you want to balance faithfulness with readability.

Rev. Engelbrecht:

Thanks for the reply! 

The age group I was thinking about (the one I deal with mostly these days) is the 3rd grade and younger group ("young readers") which I agree is a tough one to balance between faithfulness and readability, particularly when kids can get "hung up" on words that we don't think are terribly important (for example, the musical instruments in the story of Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego).

Our congregation has been using various children's bibles - I can't speak to why they chose what they did - each of them with their own shortcomings.  (Like the Zondervan kids books that ask "What should we do to please God?", etc. that hint at understandings of Scripture that aren't Lutheran.)

If I could quietly float a discussion topic around the halls of CPH, I'd love to see projects that take the thoroughness of The Lutheran Study Bible and extract children's materials:  the "Law Gospel Notes" in particular really get at the meat of the issues presented in the Bible stories that could be used to "frame" lessons for children.  For example, the notes for Genesis 32 (God wrestles with Jacob) frames the chapter in terms of both Christ's suffering and our own struggles.

(Maybe we need more "Christ Centered" presentations of the OT stories for children?)

Just a few thoughts....
Title: Re: The Lutheran Study Bible
Post by: Iowegian on November 05, 2009, 10:33:54 AM
Mr. Thompson,  I think it it is self evident to everyone but you that you are receiving a calling from the Spirit for this mission in Christ, and in faithfulness that the Lord can provide, I look forward to purchasing and reading your finished product  ;)

However, I fully acknowledge the limitations of my own gifts in the interest of not exposing our children to Biblical writing that reads like Stereo instructions.  ;-)

[Let's not start on illustrations... LOL.  "Look at how brave stick figure David is!"]
Title: Re: The Lutheran Study Bible
Post by: peter_speckhard on November 05, 2009, 12:15:02 PM
Mr. Thompson,  I think it it is self evident to everyone but you that you are receiving a calling from the Spirit for this mission in Christ, and in faithfulness that the Lord can provide, I look forward to purchasing and reading your finished product  ;)

However, I fully acknowledge the limitations of my own gifts in the interest of not exposing our children to Biblical writing that reads like Stereo instructions.  ;-)

[Let's not start on illustrations... LOL.  "Look at how brave stick figure David is!"]
If the language of stereo instructions is so horrible for children, how come they're the only ones who can make most digital gadgetry work? If my confirmation kids could understand any Bible translation as easily as they understand techno-gibberish, I'd be a happy purchaser of said translation.
Title: Re: The Lutheran Study Bible
Post by: luthersterotypicus on November 05, 2009, 02:38:10 PM
v. 22 "Okay, smarty pants. I am going to taker some of the blood water....and make it turn RED."

What a trick, since all the water was turned by Moses into blood.

Second option, is that God let them draw some clear and made it turn Red knowing this would harden Pharoah's heart...since he was not convinced by the first signs...nothing was ever going to be enough. Problem is v21 says all the water was turned to blood.

PASSOVER was already in the cards, there was not going to be a shuffle or a redeal on THAT.

So when the Bible says they did the same thing, you think that it means they did something different; in other words, it doesn't mean what it says?

Or what do you think?

Peace,
Michael

Now what do you think?

I reconciled v. 21 and 22. Your turn. Or are you suggesting v. 21 "turned all the water" meant something different?

I don't think that you did reconcile v. 21 and 22. In v. 21, you say Moses and Aaron turned all the water to blood, in a very literal sense; but in v. 22, where the Bible says the magicians of Egypt did "the same thing," you reduce that to claiming that it means they "turned" the water red by pointing to what Moses had already done. That isn't a reconciliation as much as a choice that the same words mean one thing in v. 21, something different in v. 22. The Bible makes no such distinction between the two actions, and I'd like to know where you get yours.

Peace,
Michael

You are right. The Bible does not reconcile the two veses. That's what I love about the Bible. Not sure how to reconcile them either but going out of the box. Offer a new box. Or just skip over it and head to vs. 23. What does Lenski say?
Title: Re: The Lutheran Study Bible
Post by: Mike Bennett on November 05, 2009, 03:05:15 PM

If I could quietly float a discussion topic around the halls of CPH, I'd love to see projects that take the thoroughness of The Lutheran Study Bible and extract children's materials:  the "Law Gospel Notes" in particular really get at the meat of the issues presented in the Bible stories that could be used to "frame" lessons for children.  For example, the notes for Genesis 32 (God wrestles with Jacob) frames the chapter in terms of both Christ's suffering and our own struggles.

(Maybe we need more "Christ Centered" presentations of the OT stories for children?)

Just a few thoughts....

If such a project were to be undertaken, I suggert working with TLSB at one elbow and Egermeier's Bible Story Book at the other, working to produce a book with the clarity and readability of the latter and the doctrinal content of the former.  Egermeier's was first published in 1923, was read to my brothers and me as kids in the 1940s and 1950s, and is still in print.  It is appealing and understandable to kids while being very faithful to the Scriptural text.  Actually I don't know that it needs to be replaced even now, but at age 86 one would think its days might be numbered as a children's Bible story book.

Mike Bennett
Title: Re: The Lutheran Study Bible
Post by: Mike Bennett on November 05, 2009, 03:08:23 PM


I don't think that you did reconcile v. 21 and 22. In v. 21, you say Moses and Aaron turned all the water to blood, in a very literal sense; but in v. 22, where the Bible says the magicians of Egypt did "the same thing," you reduce that to claiming that it means they "turned" the water red by pointing to what Moses had already done. That isn't a reconciliation as much as a choice that the same words mean one thing in v. 21, something different in v. 22. The Bible makes no such distinction between the two actions, and I'd like to know where you get yours.

Peace,
Michael

You are right. The Bible does not reconcile the two veses. That's what I love about the Bible. Not sure how to reconcile them either but going out of the box. Offer a new box. Or just skip over it and head to vs. 23. What does Lenski say?

Did Lenski do OT commentaries?  Is Logos holding out on me?

Mike Bennett
Title: Re: The Lutheran Study Bible
Post by: Michael Slusser on November 06, 2009, 09:33:11 AM
You are right. The Bible does not reconcile the two veses. That's what I love about the Bible.

I heartily agree with you on that.

Peace,
Michael
Title: Re: The Lutheran Study Bible
Post by: mariemeyer on November 06, 2009, 09:54:09 AM
"Marie, I'd very interested in what TLSB notes would say had you been in charge of the comments on Ephesians 5. Not in all kinds of detail, but just in general and in rough draft format, how would you improve it?"  

Peter, The issue is not how I would improve the study notes. It’s theTLSB study notes, particularly the use and content of one page essays placed within the text of God’s Word.

 “Sub-Lutheran” is the term Pr. Paul Hinlicky, former editor of Lutheran Forum, used in his review of the 1985 CTCR report, "Women in the Church."  Might the same be said of TLSB notes on Ephesians 5:22? The reader is directed to the essay Men and Women in the Church thereby linking the submission of a wife to her husband with the relationship of men and women in the church. Following the trail of notes, the basis of submission for a wife to her husband and for women in the church is the place God gave wives in the order or creation. The creation of Adam before Eve is said to “reinforce the order of creation” as does the designation of woman as "helper."  The essay  The Lord of Hosts   then reminds the reader that Christians have no right to criticize how God placed men and woman in the created order.

TLSC essays assure women that Christianity honors them as equal members of the Christian community, encourages women to study the Scriptures and gives women permission to work outside the home. However, the submission of wives and the command that women be silent in the church both have deep roots in the Biblical revelation. Women who may be unhappy about their submission role or their place in the order of creation will, as God’s new creation, delight in God’s order. “It is the Gospel that provides the motivation for men and women to joyfully to take their appointed places in God’s order, especially in the church.”

Are the notes and essays“Sub-Lutheran?”  To answer that one must explore whether Luther thought of God’s order as one where women and men have appointed places in relation to each other. A one page essay can’t possibly address the question, unless one has the answer before a thorough study of how Luther understood a Theology of Glory and natural human reason.  The THSB essay on The Lord of Hosts leans heavily in the direction of a Theology of Glory understanding of God’s order in marriage and for men and women in the church. When understood according to Luther’s Theology of the Cross, Christ is Bridegroom who did not stay in His rightful place, but submitted himself to our need for a Savior. He submitted himself in a way that is contrary to what mankind considers “natural” for the Lord of Hosts. Thus, submission is hardly a role for wives or that of a woman’s place in the order of creation.  

Might the TLSB  misuse Scripture to associate husbands and men with a role and placement in the order of creation that is counter to how Christ made no claim to his rightful natural place in the order of creation? Human husbands and men, like human wives and women, are the harlot for whom Christ surrendered all claim to an appointed place in God’s created order. If Christ submitted himself so that men and woman might be His faithful Bride and presence on earth, on what basis does TLSB conclude submission is the role of the wife? Think of it, Christ, the Heavenly Bridegroom, placed himself in submission to human husbands who were an unfaithful harlot in relation to The Lord of Hosts.  

The introductory remarks to TLSB, Reading, Understanding and Applying the Bible focus on Law and Gospel as that which identify God’s ways with mankind. I see no reference to Luther’s insight into how aTheology of Glory is counter to The Theology of the Cross.  The Law is a sword that pierces a Theology of Glory understanding of God’s order for human relationships that is in any way counter to how God, in the person of Jesus, the Christ, took his place as a servant in submission to a faithless harlot.  The Law, taken in its fullness, exposes how it is possible for Christians to recognize that the Law and the Gospel are distinct while at the same time they interpret Scripture with the mindset of a Theology of Glory.  

If I am in any way misrepresenting TLSB, or fail to understand the notes and essays, I am open to being corrected by those who have for more theological training than I do.

Marie Meyer
Title: Re: The Lutheran Study Bible
Post by: peter_speckhard on November 06, 2009, 02:20:46 PM
Marie, you seem to be saying that the Bible should be published entirely without comment of any kind or else it must be published with exhaustive commentary on every theological issue. I think a Bible with explanatory footnotes and some inserted little essays is an okay idea and probably quite helpful, and I think TLSB, though I haven't looked at it as closely as you have in this regard, does a pretty decent job (and not at all "sub-Lutheran") with Eph. 5. And I think you've turned things around in your analysis of Christ's submission. As I see it, servanthood takes two forms-- sacrifice and submission, which are the ways Christian servants interact and are the two commands given to husbands and wives specifically, under the rubric of being imitators of God. Christ's self-sacrifice was for sinful humanity. His submission was to God the Father, to whom He prayed "neverthless, not my will, but Thy will be done," prior to His arrest and crucifixion. He didn't submit to you and me; He sacrificed Himself for us. To say He submitted to our need for His sacrifice is merely play with words and concepts, as though the Good Samaritan submitted to the helpless victim. We are imitators of God in selflessness when we imitate Christ in either self-sacrifice or submission depending upon the situation and vocation.
Title: Re: The Lutheran Study Bible
Post by: mariemeyer on November 06, 2009, 04:20:50 PM
"Marie, you seem to be saying that the Bible should be published entirely without comment of any kind or else it must be published with exhaustive commentary on every theological issue."

If that's what I seem to be saying, let me be more clear.  I own and use a variety of study Bibles.  The TLSB is unique, at least in its notes related to men and women in the church, in how it follows a circular path directing the reader to notes and essays that begin where they end. God's order of creation has to do with Adam first, then Eve. It's all about the sequence of creation. Being first implies haveing an assigned position in the order of creation. Adam and Eve differed in that one was first and the other was second. The concluding word is, "If you don't accept what the notes say about an order where Adam has the role of being first and Eve the role of his helper, you are being critical of God."

Exhastive commentary - not really. For example, the notes on Genesis 2: 18 conclude that the term helper as applied to the woman confirms that Adam is the more responsible party in the order of creation.  A quick check of how the term is used in Scripture does not lead to the conclusion that the one being helped is the more responsible party. The note does connect the term with "assistant" or "ally" and acknowledges that Scipture refers to God as our helper.  If God is our helper, that is to say we are the ones being helped, on what basis can the notes claim Adam, the one being helped, is the more responsible party.

In regard to servanthood, sacrifice, submission... I may not understand what you are saying.  It sounds as if the servanthood, sacrifice and submisson of Christ which we are to imitate, takes a different form according to whether we are male or female.

Perhaps I should have said Christ subordinated himself for us rather than that he submitted to himself - that is to say he did not stay in His place as Lood of Hosts but placed himself in a lower position that wass his rightful place.   St. Peter had a hard time allowing Jesus to submit to Peter's need to have his feet washed. I submit Jesus submitted himself to St. Peter, to you and to me in ways that we cannot comprehend because it so goes against our thoughts of God.  The sacrifice of Jesus for you and for me began with the incanation when He gave up all claim his rightful place as Lord of Hosts.

At the heart of TLSB is the idea that husband and wife; man and woman can't change places in the order of creation. One of them has to always be first. Christ, regained His rightful place as first in our lives, not by clinging to or protecting it, but by becoming the last Adam from whom a new Creation, a holy people,  a faithful wife could be formed. 

There is an alternative to no notes and exhaustive studies.  It has to do with testng all conclusions with the nature and Character of God as revealed in the written and incarnate Word.

Marie
Title: Re: The Lutheran Study Bible
Post by: John_Hannah on November 06, 2009, 06:03:55 PM
If the "sequence" of creation dictates an order of rank, then I (male human that I am) must submit to grasshoppers. In fact, I must submit to everything, except female humans. In such a surpressed state that I am in, they had best "watch out."

Peace, JOHN HANNAH
Title: Re: The Lutheran Study Bible
Post by: Dave Benke on November 08, 2009, 08:29:15 PM
About 2000 years ago, I did a word study on "helper."  First, it is a term used of God (viz. "our God our Help in ages past), in Isaiah and other passages.  Which is then NOT a subordinate or less responsible slot.  Second, the local gods all had consorts who were ranked right there with them in the old fertility cult logica that "it takes two to tango."  So there was a Baal bull and an Asherah pole cheek by jowl, so to speak, in those Canaanite towns.

Dave Benke
Title: Re: The Lutheran Study Bible
Post by: revjagow on November 08, 2009, 11:00:26 PM
Going back to the original kudos that started the thread --

I just got my copy this past week and used it for our "minor prophets" study on Obediah and Jonah today.  Very nice thus far!  I love the chronology bar at the top and the side bar giving a summary of the book - including the main gospel application and law application.  The notes were good, but not exhaustive (pastors will still need several other reference books to teach a decent class, but they are still not bad).  Cross references were useful and on par with the NASB.  The additional maps ("additional" from the NIV study Bible I was given at my confirmation) were also very good. 

I have not had the time to investigate some of the concerns mentioned on this thread (and with a study on Obediah, who could blame me!), but overall, it seems like real quality material. 
Title: Re: The Lutheran Study Bible
Post by: LutherMan on November 08, 2009, 11:06:59 PM
Quote
I have not had the time to investigate some of the concerns mentioned on this thread (and with a study on Obediah, who could blame me!), but overall, it seems like real quality material.

Thanks, Pr. Jagow  That is helpful for an old Lutheran who awaits the larger print version.  I love studying minor prophets,  Can't wait to read Michah.
Title: Re: The Lutheran Study Bible
Post by: revjagow on November 09, 2009, 11:05:25 AM
Quote
I have not had the time to investigate some of the concerns mentioned on this thread (and with a study on Obediah, who could blame me!), but overall, it seems like real quality material.

Thanks, Pr. Jagow  That is helpful for an old Lutheran who awaits the larger print version.  I love studying minor prophets,  Can't wait to read Michah.

...or that Italian prophet - Malachi (mah-la-chee)  ;D
Title: Re: The Lutheran Study Bible
Post by: bluejay on October 25, 2011, 12:09:26 PM
I plan to purchase a study Bible as a gift for a 45 year old male and am looking at the new Lutheran Study Bible (CPH). Question: I like the thumb index and also like leather. But am wondering if the larger print might be better (no thumb index?). Sometimes the paper gets too thin and the print bleeds through, making reading difficult. Also have heard about a new Crossway study Bible but don't know anything about it. I had the AF Bible myself and gave it away after reading some of the notes; wouldn't want to make that mistake for a gift.

Also, do you know if any Bible covers will fit the large print version if I purchase hardcover?

Thanks for your help.

Title: Re: The Lutheran Study Bible
Post by: Timotheus Verinus on October 25, 2011, 01:09:46 PM
I plan to purchase a study Bible as a gift for a 45 year old male and am looking at the new Lutheran Study Bible (CPH). Question: I like the thumb index and also like leather. But am wondering if the larger print might be better (no thumb index?). Sometimes the paper gets too thin and the print bleeds through, making reading difficult. Also have heard about a new Crossway study Bible but don't know anything about it. I had the AF Bible myself and gave it away after reading some of the notes; wouldn't want to make that mistake for a gift.

Also, do you know if any Bible covers will fit the large print version if I purchase hardcover?

Thanks for your help.

I have the Large print TLSB from CPH in the soft leather cover and it works good for me ... as a study bible, where I can don my granny glasses for the footnotes. The pages are not too thin, nor the binding too loose.

As to other study bibles. I disagree with some study notes in TLSB, as likely well seen in this forum, BUT it is a solid foundation, with good hermeneutic, and references. The only complaint I have is when occasionally the editors cannot resist stating a personal opinion in the notes without foundation. Usually I agree with their opinions, but the practice is a reach too far. Fortunately that is rare and focused on a few "hot buttons" in the LCMS. They are also easily identified when reading. The point I would make is this. I think it is by far the most faithful of study notes among any of the other efforts I have seen and used. The Crossway notes do not compare well in this regard, and they are different. I recommend you start at the CPH notes and go from there with different understandings you might have. That is a solid place to stand. Just Red line the places you might cry "Not!!!" They will be very very few, in my personal use and experience. You can rely on the scholarship behind the notes, and take the time to  bring serious study and reasons, in those few cases, as a basis to disagree.

TV
Title: Re: The Lutheran Study Bible
Post by: Steven Tibbetts on October 25, 2011, 07:26:06 PM
I'm 52 and, with my bifocals, can read just about anything.  Nevertheless for me, the notes in the regular edition can be a challenge to see well.  The larger-print edition I see just fine.  Several parishioners also have CPH's The Lutheran Study Bible in the larger print edition.  That is not, however, "large print," and some of the older ones need still need magnification. 

When we purchased them at first publication, CPH was offering covers for the larger print edition.

OTOH, the larger print edition is one hefty book.  Once a month I lead a chapel service inthe community room at a local senior living community.  They have no lectern or podium, but one of those height-adjustable music stands where the rack stays up pneumatically.  I usually put both a Bible and hymnal on it with no problem.  Put TLSB on it by itself, and then watched the rack sink down to its lowest position.

Pax, Steven+
Title: Re: The Lutheran Study Bible
Post by: LutherMan on October 25, 2011, 08:24:25 PM
I plan to purchase a study Bible as a gift for a 45 year old male and am looking at the new Lutheran Study Bible (CPH).
I carry my larger print in a backpack and it has markedly improved my posture.  It is a very heavy book...
Title: Re: The Lutheran Study Bible
Post by: Scott6 on October 25, 2011, 09:03:32 PM
Put TLSB on it by itself, and then watched the rack sink down to its lowest position.

You, too?
Title: Re: The Lutheran Study Bible
Post by: pr dtp on October 25, 2011, 10:48:13 PM
Buy the cheapest kindle and buy the kindle edition.

This will allow you to adjust the font size, save money, and your back significant stress.

(and it would be in the range of the leather bound editions..)
Title: Re: The Lutheran Study Bible
Post by: EarlOfOrmond on October 31, 2011, 04:45:26 PM
Put TLSB on it by itself, and then watched the rack sink down to its lowest position.

That's some pretty heavy reading.
Title: Re: The Lutheran Study Bible
Post by: Charles_Austin on October 31, 2011, 08:20:54 PM
Why does Concordia's Lutheran Study Bible cost the same as a Kindle e-book as it does in a hardcover? Kindle books are supposed to be much cheaper than the printed version.
And the Augsburg-Fortress printed version is $10 cheaper. BUt I don't see a Kindle edition.
Title: Re: The Lutheran Study Bible incompatible with Kindle Paperwhite
Post by: Kurt Weinelt on January 20, 2013, 10:20:31 PM
Has anybody else out there in th Lutheran cyber-universe tried to download the Lutheran Study Bible onto a Kindle Paperwhite?

We bought my mom a Kindle Paperwhite because her Bible was too big for her to carry to Bible class along with her purse and cane. We bought the Kindle Paperwhite because it was the best reader out there for her to read, and she didn't need (or want) all the complexity of a Kindle Fire. We activated it yesterday, and made the Lutheran Study Bible our first purchase. She was really looking forward to it, but when we downloaded the book there was a glaring problem...no table of contents. The only way to go from the Forward to any book of the Bible was page-by-page. We looked on the user reviews on Amazon, and several other customers had the same problem. So we returned the book for a refund.

Anybody encountered this problem, and is there a fix?
Title: Re: The Lutheran Study Bible
Post by: Dan Fienen on January 20, 2013, 11:08:10 PM
I purchased the Lutheran Study Bbible   for Kindle on my Samsung 7inch tablet.  Finding thd table of contnts was a challenge, but I found by using the goto feature that listed the TOC. 

You might try customer service at Amazon (or as a second option CPH,  but I'm guessing they let Amazon handle kindle questions).

In some ways the paper edition is easier to use, but the kindle is sure lighter to hold and schlep around.


Dan
Title: Re: The Lutheran Study Bible
Post by: LutherMan on January 21, 2013, 03:50:58 AM
My TLSB is the heaviest book I own, even heavier than my Merriam Webster dictionary...
Title: Re: The Lutheran Study Bible
Post by: Dave Likeness on January 21, 2013, 09:39:46 AM
The Lutheran Study Bible in the Large Print
Hard Back edition weighs 5 pounds. For some
pastors in the LCMS the only exercise they get
is carrying this tome. CPH is to be applauded
for considering the physical fitness of our clergy
in the production of this heavy book.
Title: Re: The Lutheran Study Bible
Post by: Johan Bergfest on January 21, 2013, 09:55:41 AM
My TLSB is the heaviest book I own, even heavier than my Merriam Webster dictionary...

The heaviest book in my library is probably The Concordia Self-Study Commentary.  It is good exercise to carry it and even better exercise to read it - especially Franzmann's notes on the New Testament.
Title: Re: The Lutheran Study Bible
Post by: Dave Likeness on January 21, 2013, 10:12:08 AM
Dr. Martin Franzmann  was probably the best
New Testament scholar of the LCMS in the
last half of the 20th century.  He wrote two
commentaries that are priceless: Romans
and Revelation.  He wrote a devotional
commentary on Matthew.  His New Testament
Introduction is still relevant in the 21st century.
Title: Re: The Lutheran Study Bible
Post by: Kurt Weinelt on January 21, 2013, 10:13:02 AM
I purchased the Lutheran Study Bbible   for Kindle on my Samsung 7inch tablet.  Finding thd table of contnts was a challenge, but I found by using the goto feature that listed the TOC. 

You might try customer service at Amazon (or as a second option CPH,  but I'm guessing they let Amazon handle kindle questions).

In some ways the paper edition is easier to use, but the kindle is sure lighter to hold and schlep around.

Dan
The "go to" feature does not have the table of contents in the menu. The Bible loaded on our earlier Kindle version does have this function.

I contacted Concordia by email yesterday (and got a personal---not a computer-generated--- reply two minutes later!), and they were unaware of the issue until now. I guess we'll find out what's going on soon. The paper copy is a non-starter since the whole point of buying the Kindle Paperwhite was to eliminate her having to carry books around.
Title: Re: The Lutheran Study Bible
Post by: LutherMan on January 21, 2013, 10:25:54 AM
I know several older people who leave their TLSB's at church in the bible study room, not practical when you want it at home, but makes it easier for them...
Title: Re: The Lutheran Study Bible
Post by: Norman Teigen on January 21, 2013, 11:33:19 AM
I was given a copy of this study bible and I perused it for a while and then gave it away.  There is limited interest here because of the narrowness of the agenda.   There is an absence of dimension in the  scholarship here.  There are no female scholar essays here as there is in the ELCA edition.  The editor, a well known Lutheran Celebrity blogger who was once, I am told, seen on these pages,  pays honor to the women who served the editor and the writers but it is almost as though he was thanking them for making photocopies, serving cookies, and preparing coffee. 

This book and the ELCA book of the same title demonstrate interesting theological differences between the two Lutheran groups.  The two editions might make museum pieces which show differences between the ELCA and the LC-MS.   For those of us with broader perspectives there is something to be learned from both sides of the confessional chasm.

Norman Teigen, Layman
Evangelical Lutheran Synod

Title: Re: The Lutheran Study Bible
Post by: Dan Fienen on January 21, 2013, 11:55:02 AM
I was given a copy of this study bible and I perused it for a while and then gave it away.  There is limited interest here because of the narrowness of the agenda.   There is an absence of dimension in the  scholarship here.  There are no female scholar essays here as there is in the ELCA edition.  The editor, a well known Lutheran Celebrity blogger who was once, I am told, seen on these pages,  pays honor to the women who served the editor and the writers but it is almost as though he was thanking them for making photocopies, serving cookies, and preparing coffee. 

This book and the ELCA book of the same title demonstrate interesting theological differences between the two Lutheran groups.  The two editions might make museum pieces which show differences between the ELCA and the LC-MS.   For those of us with broader perspectives there is something to be learned from both sides of the confessional chasm.

Norman Teigen, Layman
Evangelical Lutheran Synod

What is the purpose of such a study Bible as TLSB?   One purpose could be to lay out the range of scholarly opinion and interpretation,  or perhaps ifit is to be a Lutheran study Bible tha range of Lutheran opinion and interpretation.  This could be of use to scholars and is apparently what Mr.  Teigen was looking for.

I think that our intention in producing this study Bible was not so to produce a compendium of contemporary Biblical scholarship as it was to produce a Bible readily useable by laity to asist them in their personal and group Bible study.  So backgound material in the physical,  social and cultural contexts of the Biblical texts and an indication of how we, in the Missouri Synod understand the text.  I doubt that this was supposed to be a neutral, some say this some say that, take your pick, compendium of scholarly opinion, but as a guide for laity.

Dan
Title: Re: The Lutheran Study Bible
Post by: Jeremy Loesch on January 21, 2013, 11:55:36 AM
I learn something everyday!  There are only nine commandments in the ELS! 

The gender of the commentators and scholars has no bearing on the book.  Why are you not grousing about the absence of sheep commenting on Exodus 12?

Jeremy.
Title: Re: The Lutheran Study Bible
Post by: Pr. Don Kirchner on January 21, 2013, 11:57:30 AM
I purchased the Lutheran Study Bbible   for Kindle on my Samsung 7inch tablet.  Finding thd table of contnts was a challenge, but I found by using the goto feature that listed the TOC. 

You might try customer service at Amazon (or as a second option CPH,  but I'm guessing they let Amazon handle kindle questions).

In some ways the paper edition is easier to use, but the kindle is sure lighter to hold and schlep around.

Dan
The "go to" feature does not have the table of contents in the menu. The Bible loaded on our earlier Kindle version does have this function.

I contacted Concordia by email yesterday (and got a personal---not a computer-generated--- reply two minutes later!), and they were unaware of the issue until now. I guess we'll find out what's going on soon. The paper copy is a non-starter since the whole point of buying the Kindle Paperwhite was to eliminate her having to carry books around.

On my Kindle Fire, when using TLSB, I tap the "menu" icon at the bottom, and it goes to a menu of Cover, Table of Contents, Beginning, Location..., Sync to Furtherest Page, and Book Extras. Seems quite simple.
Title: Re: The Lutheran Study Bible
Post by: D. Engebretson on January 21, 2013, 12:05:10 PM
I was given a copy of this study bible and I perused it for a while and then gave it away.  There is limited interest here because of the narrowness of the agenda.   There is an absence of dimension in the  scholarship here.  There are no female scholar essays here as there is in the ELCA edition.  The editor, a well known Lutheran Celebrity blogger who was once, I am told, seen on these pages,  pays honor to the women who served the editor and the writers but it is almost as though he was thanking them for making photocopies, serving cookies, and preparing coffee. 

This book and the ELCA book of the same title demonstrate interesting theological differences between the two Lutheran groups.  The two editions might make museum pieces which show differences between the ELCA and the LC-MS.   For those of us with broader perspectives there is something to be learned from both sides of the confessional chasm.

Norman Teigen, Layman
Evangelical Lutheran Synod

It is true that the range of interpretation is narrow, but as noted it was produced primarily with a conservative Lutheran audience in mind.  One should also note that there are numerous references to the Church Fathers in the notes.  This is something seldom if ever seen in study Bibles of an evangelical stripe, and a much broader inclusion than was found in the previous study Bible put out by CPH. 
Title: Re: The Lutheran Study Bible
Post by: Norman Teigen on January 21, 2013, 01:16:22 PM
To Jeremy Loesch:  Hunh?

The LC-MS Study Bible, it seems, isn't so much about scholarship as it is about indoctrinating the faithful to the correct interpretation of the Scriptures and the Confessions.  Elsewhere on the ALB Forum, quite recently,  I found a link to an essay by a certain Timothy Dost  [Surging Shifting Sands.....].  Dost points out something worth looking at re the LC-MS (and I include other conservative Lutheran synods like the ELS, of which my congregation is a member) about interpretation.  The insight, for me, is that Dost writes about "the issue of presuppositions, including both the Scriptures and Lutheran Confessions. . . of how fixed doctrinal statements and conclusions" are to be handled.

It seems to me that the marketers at LC-MS headquarters want to permanently fix the truths of Scripture and the Lutheran Confessions into a solid form and sell these tablets of stone. The faithful, it would be so desired,  would, read, mark and inwardly digest the truths so expounded and prominently display them in their churches and homes just as the Roman Catholics of my youth posted pictures of the BVM in their homes and social halls.

Norman Teigen, Layman
Evangelical Lutheran Synod
Title: Re: The Lutheran Study Bible
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on January 21, 2013, 01:16:58 PM
I learn something everyday!  There are only nine commandments in the ELS! 

The gender of the commentators and scholars has no bearing on the book.  Why are you not grousing about the absence of sheep commenting on Exodus 12?


That is true if one believes that the personal experiences of commentators and scholars has no bearing on how they read and interpret scriptures. I am certain that the differences people experience because of gender, race, religions, economic status, etc. make a difference in how they interpret scriptures. Such differences can often be illustrated by asking a mixed group of people about a biblical text, "What does this mean to you?" Answers will vary - often based on their own personal experiences.

Consider the contrast that has occurred with interpretations of the woman at the well. (I don't know what's in either Lutheran Study Bibles, so I'm not making a direct reference to them.) Often the woman has been portrayed as sexually immoral because she's had five husbands. A female interpretation that I recently read, suggested that she was a victim of the levirite law that was also part of the Samaritan's Torah - that is, she had been passed from one of her first husband's brothers to the next as they died, to try and raise up a son for their brother. This means, in this commentator's view, that she was considered a burden for all of those "husbands" – who know that should she bear a son, it wouldn't be theirs. That rather than being an immoral woman (something the text never states,) she was victimized by the Law and her first husband's brothers.


There's also an interpretation by more liberal scholars that take the five husbands symbolically to represent the five foreign nations that Assyria brought into the land of Samaria after conquering it (see 2 Kings 17:24). A few verses later we are also told that the people from these foreign nations brought their own gods into Samaria to worship them. Because of these foreign gods, the true husband, the LORD, was not really worshipped as he should be. The Samaritans claimed him as their "husband," but he really wasn't. With this symbolic interpretation, the sin is idolatry - and then logically leads to the conversation about proper worship.
Title: Re: The Lutheran Study Bible
Post by: Norman Teigen on January 21, 2013, 01:20:40 PM
Well, I assert the revolutionary idea that neither of these sides can be assumed to have a corner on the truth.  i come from the conservative side and have seen the blinders of this element.   An educated person needs, I think, to get beyond the agendas of the ludicrous left and the ridiculous right.  It is a task that will never be accomplished while we live in this life.
Title: Re: The Lutheran Study Bible
Post by: Jeremy Loesch on January 21, 2013, 02:14:05 PM
I learn something everyday!  There are only nine commandments in the ELS! 

The gender of the commentators and scholars has no bearing on the book.  Why are you not grousing about the absence of sheep commenting on Exodus 12?


That is true if one believes that the personal experiences of commentators and scholars has no bearing on how they read and interpret scriptures. I am certain that the differences people experience because of gender, race, religions, economic status, etc. make a difference in how they interpret scriptures. Such differences can often be illustrated by asking a mixed group of people about a biblical text, "What does this mean to you?" Answers will vary - often based on their own personal experiences.

Consider the contrast that has occurred with interpretations of the woman at the well. (I don't know what's in either Lutheran Study Bibles, so I'm not making a direct reference to them.) Often the woman has been portrayed as sexually immoral because she's had five husbands. A female interpretation that I recently read, suggested that she was a victim of the levirite law that was also part of the Samaritan's Torah - that is, she had been passed from one of her first husband's brothers to the next as they died, to try and raise up a son for their brother. This means, in this commentator's view, that she was considered a burden for all of those "husbands" – who know that should she bear a son, it wouldn't be theirs. That rather than being an immoral woman (something the text never states,) she was victimized by the Law and her first husband's brothers.


There's also an interpretation by more liberal scholars that take the five husbands symbolically to represent the five foreign nations that Assyria brought into the land of Samaria after conquering it (see 2 Kings 17:24). A few verses later we are also told that the people from these foreign nations brought their own gods into Samaria to worship them. Because of these foreign gods, the true husband, the LORD, was not really worshipped as he should be. The Samaritans claimed him as their "husband," but he really wasn't. With this symbolic interpretation, the sin is idolatry - and then logically leads to the conversation about proper worship.

The five husbands plainly refer to: pork, seven squared minus three, Hawaii, composting, and the planet formerly known as Pluto. 

A lot of mischief can happen when scholars try to read the Bible.

Jeremy
Title: Re: The Lutheran Study Bible
Post by: Kurt Weinelt on January 21, 2013, 04:04:09 PM
On my Kindle Fire, when using TLSB, I tap the "menu" icon at the bottom, and it goes to a menu of Cover, Table of Contents, Beginning, Location..., Sync to Furtherest Page, and Book Extras. Seems quite simple.
There is no menu for "Table of Contents" when you use menu or "Go To" on the Kindle Paperwhite we downloaded. It is missing in action, AWOL, etc.

Here are the comments of other users on Amazon with the same problem:
"The LSB worked ok on my previous Kindle. Recently got the new Paperwhite and unable to bring up a Table of contents on it. Any solutions?"
"I also can't find the table of Contents. Does anyone have a tip on how to find it? I would like to get started reading, but can't get to the book I want to read."
"Ditto for the Kindle Fire HD."
"I am having the same problem. Sure can't take this to Bible Study it will take me 3 days to find a book. Any updates out there?"
"We were disappointed that we couldn't navigate the Lutheran Study Bible in Paperwhite. Apparently this problem has existed for several months. Does anyone from Amazon or Concordia respond? We returned our download. If you can't navigate to specific places it renders this Bible useless."
Title: Re: The Lutheran Study Bible
Post by: Dan Fienen on January 21, 2013, 04:09:34 PM
On my Kindle Fire, when using TLSB, I tap the "menu" icon at the bottom, and it goes to a menu of Cover, Table of Contents, Beginning, Location..., Sync to Furtherest Page, and Book Extras. Seems quite simple.
There is no menu for "Table of Contents" when you use menu or "Go To" on the Kindle Paperwhite we downloaded. It is missing in action, AWOL, etc.

Here are the comments of other users on Amazon with the same problem:
"The LSB worked ok on my previous Kindle. Recently got the new Paperwhite and unable to bring up a Table of contents on it. Any solutions?"
"I also can't find the table of Contents. Does anyone have a tip on how to find it? I would like to get started reading, but can't get to the book I want to read."
"Ditto for the Kindle Fire HD."
"I am having the same problem. Sure can't take this to Bible Study it will take me 3 days to find a book. Any updates out there?"
"We were disappointed that we couldn't navigate the Lutheran Study Bible in Paperwhite. Apparently this problem has existed for several months. Does alone from Amazon or Concordia respond? We returned our download. If you can't navigate to specific places it renders this Bible useless."
Apparently the problem is not so much in the download, but in the platform -the kindle Paperwhite.

Dan
Title: Re: The Lutheran Study Bible
Post by: Pr. Don Kirchner on January 21, 2013, 04:15:19 PM
On my Kindle Fire, when using TLSB, I tap the "menu" icon at the bottom, and it goes to a menu of Cover, Table of Contents, Beginning, Location..., Sync to Furtherest Page, and Book Extras. Seems quite simple.
There is no menu for "Table of Contents" when you use menu or "Go To" on the Kindle Paperwhite we downloaded. It is missing in action, AWOL, etc.

Here are the comments of other users on Amazon with the same problem:
"The LSB worked ok on my previous Kindle. Recently got the new Paperwhite and unable to bring up a Table of contents on it. Any solutions?"
"I also can't find the table of Contents. Does anyone have a tip on how to find it? I would like to get started reading, but can't get to the book I want to read."
"Ditto for the Kindle Fire HD."
"I am having the same problem. Sure can't take this to Bible Study it will take me 3 days to find a book. Any updates out there?"
"We were disappointed that we couldn't navigate the Lutheran Study Bible in Paperwhite. Apparently this problem has existed for several months. Does alone from Amazon or Concordia respond? We returned our download. If you can't navigate to specific places it renders this Bible useless."
Apparently the problem is not so much in the download, but in the platform -the kindle Paperwhite.

Dan

I gave my wife a Paperwhite for Christmas. Downloaded TLSB thereon, but I haven't used it. Thanks for the heads-up. I'll check it out.
Title: Re: The Lutheran Study Bible
Post by: Kurt Weinelt on January 21, 2013, 04:39:04 PM
On my Kindle Fire, when using TLSB, I tap the "menu" icon at the bottom, and it goes to a menu of Cover, Table of Contents, Beginning, Location..., Sync to Furtherest Page, and Book Extras. Seems quite simple.
There is no menu for "Table of Contents" when you use menu or "Go To" on the Kindle Paperwhite we downloaded. It is missing in action, AWOL, etc.

Here are the comments of other users on Amazon with the same problem:
"The LSB worked ok on my previous Kindle. Recently got the new Paperwhite and unable to bring up a Table of contents on it. Any solutions?"
"I also can't find the table of Contents. Does anyone have a tip on how to find it? I would like to get started reading, but can't get to the book I want to read."
"Ditto for the Kindle Fire HD."
"I am having the same problem. Sure can't take this to Bible Study it will take me 3 days to find a book. Any updates out there?"
"We were disappointed that we couldn't navigate the Lutheran Study Bible in Paperwhite. Apparently this problem has existed for several months. Does alone from Amazon or Concordia respond? We returned our download. If you can't navigate to specific places it renders this Bible useless."
Apparently the problem is not so much in the download, but in the platform -the kindle Paperwhite.

Dan
That is my suspicion. I teach in a computer lab, so I am pretty good at isolating technical problems, though not very good at all at fixing them.

I received three emails from Concordia in the 12-hour period after I notified them of this issue, and I included in one of my replies the link and user comments in my post above. So far I am really impressed by the CPH response.
Title: Re: The Lutheran Study Bible
Post by: Brian Stoffregen on January 21, 2013, 06:31:33 PM
I learn something everyday!  There are only nine commandments in the ELS! 

The gender of the commentators and scholars has no bearing on the book.  Why are you not grousing about the absence of sheep commenting on Exodus 12?


That is true if one believes that the personal experiences of commentators and scholars has no bearing on how they read and interpret scriptures. I am certain that the differences people experience because of gender, race, religions, economic status, etc. make a difference in how they interpret scriptures. Such differences can often be illustrated by asking a mixed group of people about a biblical text, "What does this mean to you?" Answers will vary - often based on their own personal experiences.

Consider the contrast that has occurred with interpretations of the woman at the well. (I don't know what's in either Lutheran Study Bibles, so I'm not making a direct reference to them.) Often the woman has been portrayed as sexually immoral because she's had five husbands. A female interpretation that I recently read, suggested that she was a victim of the levirite law that was also part of the Samaritan's Torah - that is, she had been passed from one of her first husband's brothers to the next as they died, to try and raise up a son for their brother. This means, in this commentator's view, that she was considered a burden for all of those "husbands" – who know that should she bear a son, it wouldn't be theirs. That rather than being an immoral woman (something the text never states,) she was victimized by the Law and her first husband's brothers.


There's also an interpretation by more liberal scholars that take the five husbands symbolically to represent the five foreign nations that Assyria brought into the land of Samaria after conquering it (see 2 Kings 17:24). A few verses later we are also told that the people from these foreign nations brought their own gods into Samaria to worship them. Because of these foreign gods, the true husband, the LORD, was not really worshipped as he should be. The Samaritans claimed him as their "husband," but he really wasn't. With this symbolic interpretation, the sin is idolatry - and then logically leads to the conversation about proper worship.

The five husbands plainly refer to: pork, seven squared minus three, Hawaii, composting, and the planet formerly known as Pluto. 

A lot of mischief can happen when scholars try to read the Bible.


A lot less happens when you have to show your exegetical work to support your interpretation.

Title: Re: The Lutheran Study Bible
Post by: Dave Likeness on January 22, 2013, 11:59:01 AM
 TLSB was compiled with the intended audience
as the laity of the LCMS.  The primary and foremost
concern was to have footnotes that emphasized
the doctrinal position of the LCMS.  Obviously, others
beside the target audience have purchased and
benefited from reading this study Bible.
Title: Re: The Lutheran Study Bible
Post by: Dan Fienen on January 22, 2013, 12:27:20 PM
Is it the job of a church body to lay before the laity the wide range of thought and opinion as to what is taught in the Bible according to differing confessional and scholarly traditions leaving it up to the laity to sort through it all and come to the opinion that tickles their fancy?  Or is it the job of a church body to produce material for the laity that will education them as to how the church to which they belong understands what Scripture teaches?  Where does education end and indoctrination begin? 
 
Of course if Mr. Teigen truly feels that one of the most interesting facts concerning the LCMS is the facial hair of our leader and parallels with other German leaders with facial hair, that perhaps explains some of his distaste for the LCMS trying to present its position.
 
A leader of a German organization with a mustache?  Where might I have seen that one before?

Norman Teigen, Layman
Evangelical Lutheran Synod

Dan
Title: Re: The Lutheran Study Bible
Post by: Norman Teigen on January 22, 2013, 12:46:05 PM
What's the matter, Dan?  Can't you take a joke?   I don't hate the Missouri Synod.  It's a venerable institution.  Of late, in my opinion,  it seems to have veered away from Lutheranism insofar as the Doctrine of the Two Kingdoms is concerned but I think that it is a pretty good synod, as synods go.  There is a spirit of crusaderism going on which is apparent to some of us looking on from the sidelines.  This perception is confirmed by personal e-mail from other observers, some from within the LC-MS.

The congregation of which I am a member is a member of the Evangelical Lutheran Synod.  We are small and dependent on larger ecclesiastical institutions to validate our identity and existence.   We look to Missouri for guidance and purpose, even though we are not in fellowship.  The leadership of the ELS has predicted that we only have about twenty more years of existence ahead of us.  In these twenty years we need to find a church group that will be palatable to our survivors and which will be willing to take us in.

Missouri under the incumbent president seems to be willing to get to know us a little bit better.  We publicly endorse the incumbent Missouri president's social crusade and this might lead us into the paths of righteousness as expressed  by the Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod.

Of course, since church bodies are made up of humans, it is possible that not all of these developments will come to pass.  Cranky old people like me (I am now 70) are unlikely to live to see these rapturous occurrences or even to approve everything that goes on.  Some of us have principles, too.

The Lutheran Study Bible is an important social and cultural document relevant to these matters.

Norman Teigen, Layman
Evangelical Lutheran Synod
Title: Re: The Lutheran Study Bible
Post by: Dan Fienen on January 22, 2013, 03:22:49 PM
What's the matter, Dan?  Can't you take a joke?   I don't hate the Missouri Synod.  It's a venerable institution.  Of late, in my opinion,  it seems to have veered away from Lutheranism insofar as the Doctrine of the Two Kingdoms is concerned but I think that it is a pretty good synod, as synods go.  There is a spirit of crusaderism going on which is apparent to some of us looking on from the sidelines.  This perception is confirmed by personal e-mail from other observers, some from within the LC-MS.

The congregation of which I am a member is a member of the Evangelical Lutheran Synod.  We are small and dependent on larger ecclesiastical institutions to validate our identity and existence.   We look to Missouri for guidance and purpose, even though we are not in fellowship.  The leadership of the ELS has predicted that we only have about twenty more years of existence ahead of us.  In these twenty years we need to find a church group that will be palatable to our survivors and which will be willing to take us in.

Missouri under the incumbent president seems to be willing to get to know us a little bit better.  We publicly endorse the incumbent Missouri president's social crusade and this might lead us into the paths of righteousness as expressed  by the Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod.

Of course, since church bodies are made up of humans, it is possible that not all of these developments will come to pass.  Cranky old people like me (I am now 70) are unlikely to live to see these rapturous occurrences or even to approve everything that goes on.  Some of us have principles, too.

The Lutheran Study Bible is an important social and cultural document relevant to these matters.

Norman Teigen, Layman
Evangelical Lutheran Synod

Well that explains it.
 
I was given a copy of this study bible and I perused it for a while and then gave it away.  There is limited interest here because of the narrowness of the agenda.   There is an absence of dimension in the  scholarship here.  There are no female scholar essays here as there is in the ELCA edition.  The editor, a well known Lutheran Celebrity blogger who was once, I am told, seen on these pages,  pays honor to the women who served the editor and the writers but it is almost as though he was thanking them for making photocopies, serving cookies, and preparing coffee. 

This book and the ELCA book of the same title demonstrate interesting theological differences between the two Lutheran groups.  The two editions might make museum pieces which show differences between the ELCA and the LC-MS.   For those of us with broader perspectives there is something to be learned from both sides of the confessional chasm.

Norman Teigen, Layman
Evangelical Lutheran Synod

To Jeremy Loesch:  Hunh?

The LC-MS Study Bible, it seems, isn't so much about scholarship as it is about indoctrinating the faithful to the correct interpretation of the Scriptures and the Confessions.  Elsewhere on the ALB Forum, quite recently,  I found a link to an essay by a certain Timothy Dost  [Surging Shifting Sands.....].  Dost points out something worth looking at re the LC-MS (and I include other conservative Lutheran synods like the ELS, of which my congregation is a member) about interpretation.  The insight, for me, is that Dost writes about "the issue of presuppositions, including both the Scriptures and Lutheran Confessions. . . of how fixed doctrinal statements and conclusions" are to be handled.

It seems to me that the marketers at LC-MS headquarters want to permanently fix the truths of Scripture and the Lutheran Confessions into a solid form and sell these tablets of stone. The faithful, it would be so desired,  would, read, mark and inwardly digest the truths so expounded and prominently display them in their churches and homes just as the Roman Catholics of my youth posted pictures of the BVM in their homes and social halls.

Norman Teigen, Layman
Evangelical Lutheran Synod
Title: Re: The Lutheran Study Bible
Post by: Kurt Weinelt on January 23, 2013, 10:21:50 AM
Update on the Lutheran Study Bible incompatibility issue with Kindle Paperwhite. I provided an explanation of my problems after the download, and a link/sample of other users' similar problems. The email I received back Monday said that he (I don't have the pastor's name handy) would get a Paperwhite and try the download when they reopened on Tuesday. I have not heard back since Monday, which leads me to surmise (since they have been really responsive up until now) that they must have encountered the same issue and are working on it.

BTW, I think this is important because the Kindle Paperwhite is the most usable electronic reader for the elderly due to its readability (the appearance, contrast, etc.) and its simplicity of use. Sure the Kindle Fire does much more, but it is more complicated for those who aren't interested in (or are intimidated by) technology. I take care of my mom's computer and cell phone, and am pretty sure many other folks her age aren't any more interested in keeping up with the latest technology than she is.
Kurt
Title: Re: The Lutheran Study Bible
Post by: Jay Michael on January 23, 2013, 10:30:45 AM
There are similar issues with TLSB on the Kindle Touch ... Hopefully they will be resolved as well.
Title: Re: The Lutheran Study Bible
Post by: mariemeyer on January 27, 2013, 04:08:35 PM
Today in Bible Class the pastor indicated that I Cor. 12 was directed to the entire congregation.  Mention of "brothers" in chapter 12 were said to include sisters and brothers. 

When I came home I checked The Lutheran Study Bible. There on page 1901 it states that Paul's use of brother can be male or female, "However, Paul  also used the term specifically for men who led the congregations. see note, I Cor 12:1)"

On page 1966 the notes state that in chapters 12-14 "Paul primarily instructs congregational leaders, "the spiritual," who have adopted different practices and divided the congregation."  The "brothers" in 12: 1 are "the spiritual" leaders of the congregation.   The note on 12: 4-6 states that the varieties of gifts and service are embodied in ministers. Notes on  12:7  that "to each" is again a reference to  the "brothers" (men). The Spirit works through the "brothers" (men).

I admit to always having read I Cor. 12 and the following chapters are being directed to the entire congregation. Hence, I was included in "brothers."

Any thoughts on I Cor. 12???

Marie
Title: Re: The Lutheran Study Bible
Post by: Chuck Sampson on January 27, 2013, 07:15:54 PM

The leadership of the ELS has predicted that we only have about twenty more years of existence ahead of us.  In these twenty years we need to find a church group that will be palatable to our survivors and which will be willing to take us in.


This sounds like a story line from the original Star Trek series . . .
Title: Re: The Lutheran Study Bible
Post by: Norman Teigen on January 27, 2013, 07:36:18 PM
Good one, Chuck.  I always liked that one.   Star Trek.  Very witty.   Thanks.
Title: Re: The Lutheran Study Bible
Post by: Dave Likeness on January 28, 2013, 11:21:34 AM
Marie, when the Apostle Paul in his letters addresses
a congregation with the word brethren, the ESV
always puts in the footnotes that it refers to brothers
and sisters.  The footnote states that the Greek
word for brother when used in the plural refers to
siblings in a family in New Testament usage.
Title: Re: The Lutheran Study Bible
Post by: Wallenstein on January 28, 2013, 12:30:20 PM

The congregation of which I am a member is a member of the Evangelical Lutheran Synod.  We are small and dependent on larger ecclesiastical institutions to validate our identity and existence.   We look to Missouri for guidance and purpose, even though we are not in fellowship.  The leadership of the ELS has predicted that we only have about twenty more years of existence ahead of us.  In these twenty years we need to find a church group that will be palatable to our survivors and which will be willing to take us in.

Norman Teigen, Layman
Evangelical Lutheran Synod

Why should the ELS wait twenty years until it is on life-support?  What does the ELS leadership plan to do before doomsday arrives?
Title: Re: The Lutheran Study Bible
Post by: mariemeyer on January 28, 2013, 12:42:18 PM
Marie, when the Apostle Paul in his letters addresses
a congregation with the word brethren, the ESV
always puts in the footnotes that it refers to brothers
and sisters.  The footnote states that the Greek
word for brother when used in the plural refers to
siblings in a family in New Testament usage.

David: I am aware of the above. 

My question is in regard to study notes in The Lutheran Study Bible where on p. 1901 it states that Paul's use of brother can be male or female, "However, Paul  also used the term specifically for men who led the congregations." In then gives I Cor 12:1 as an example where Paul uses "brothers" for men only.

Thus the question, " On what basis do the The Lutheran Study Bible notes conclude that St. Paul's use of brothers in I Cor. 12: 1 refers only to male siblings?"  The study notes contradict the ESV footnote on 12:1 that says "or brothers or sisters. Which is it???

Also, study Notes on chapters 12-14 state that in these chapters "Paul primarily instructs congregational leaders, "the spiritual," who have adopted different practices and divided the congregation."  The note on 12: 4-6 states that the varieties of gifts and service are embodied in ministers. Notes on  12:7  that "to each" is again a reference to  the "brothers" (men). The Spirit works through the "brothers" (men).

To whom are chapters 12-14 addressed? The study notes bounce back and forth in determining which verses apply to the men who are spiritual leaders in the church and which to the entire body.   To whom does I Cor 12: 7 apply when it states "To each is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good."
Marie
Title: Re: The Lutheran Study Bible
Post by: Dave Likeness on January 28, 2013, 03:02:02 PM
Marie, those notes in TLSB are contradicted by
Gregory Lockwood's Concordia Commentary on
1 Corinthians.   He stresses that ALL Christians
have these gifts to upbuild the Christian Church.

"Each of these gifts of grace (12:4) services (12:5
should be understood  as a comprehensive
expression for the triune God  giving to and
serving through the believer."   Page 450
Title: Re: The Lutheran Study Bible
Post by: LutherMan on January 28, 2013, 03:08:02 PM
TLSB was compiled with the intended audience
as the laity of the LCMS.  The primary and foremost
concern was to have footnotes that emphasized
the doctrinal position of the LCMS.  Obviously, others
beside the target audience have purchased and
benefited from reading this study Bible.
I'd be curious to know how much usage TLSB gets in the WELS, ELS, CLC, LCMC, NALC and Lutheran bodies abroad in English speaking countries...
Title: Re: The Lutheran Study Bible
Post by: Steven Tibbetts on January 28, 2013, 03:25:28 PM

A lot less happens when you have to show your exegetical work to support your interpretation.

It might be interesting to see the exegetical work that supports this "female interpretation" you have, uh, gleaned (from which field you do not say).
Title: Re: The Lutheran Study Bible
Post by: mariemeyer on January 28, 2013, 05:03:03 PM
Pastor Tibbetts:


What do you make of the contradiction in The Lutheran Study Bible where notes conclude that St. Paul's use of "brothers" in I Cor. 12: 1 refers only to male siblings and the ESV footnote on 12:1 that says "or brothers or sisters."  (see page 1966) Which is it???


What do you make of the note on 12: 4-6 that states that the varieties of gifts and service are embodied in ministers? 


Marie
 
Title: Re: The Lutheran Study Bible
Post by: Norman Teigen on January 28, 2013, 05:10:21 PM
To  Wallenstein:   Ask the ELS President directly about the next twenty years.  And tell him that Norman Teigen sent you.
Title: Re: The Lutheran Study Bible
Post by: Steven Tibbetts on January 28, 2013, 07:23:41 PM
Pastor Tibbetts:

What do you make of the contradiction in The Lutheran Study Bible where notes conclude that St. Paul's use of "brothers" in I Cor. 12: 1 refers only to male siblings and the ESV footnote on 12:1 that says "or brothers or sisters."  (see page 1966) Which is it???

What do you make of the note on 12: 4-6 that states that the varieties of gifts and service are embodied in ministers? 

Sister Marie, in the notes you reference above, I see nothing that leads to a conclusion that 1 Cor. 12:1 refers solely to male siblings.

The note on in "brothers" on page 1901 that says here St. Paul is speaking "specifically for men who led congregations," emphasizing the maleness of the leaders, is not out of line as an interpretation, particularly in an age unwilling to acknowledge distinctions between males and females.  It is not that long ago that many would have simply presumed that was the interpretation.

The note is more restrictive than I would first interpret, but I do not think in terms of "every member a minister" nor "every minister a pastor." But that St. Paul is not automatically speaking of everyone here, as I've been taught to understand, is an interpretation worth pondering. Clearly Paul is speaking of "ministry" here, and I understand that to be more that The Ministry.

Pax, Steven+
Title: Re: The Lutheran Study Bible
Post by: Dave Benke on January 28, 2013, 07:25:11 PM
Marie, those notes in TLSB are contradicted by
Gregory Lockwood's Concordia Commentary on
1 Corinthians.   He stresses that ALL Christians
have these gifts to upbuild the Christian Church.

"Each of these gifts of grace (12:4) services (12:5
should be understood  as a comprehensive
expression for the triune God  giving to and
serving through the believer."   Page 450

This being the Epiphany love/gifts cycle in the Sunday epistle lessons, I'm working on a congregational leadership renewal under the theme "Excel to Edify" (I Corinthians 14:12).  This to an oldster like you, Dave Likeness, would be easily seen as a purloined theme from our old Milwaukee days, when Prexy Stuenkel had a theme for every year (The Place is Too Small, etc) and one year it was "Excel to Edify." 

Excel to Edify means = Baptismal excellence in utilizing the Gifts of the Spirit for the building up of the Body of Christ to engage the world with the Gospel of hope. 

It never has occurred to me until this little set of postings that the gifts of the Spirit are somehow gender-determined or designated.  For pete's sake.  Ridiculous.  That will not be the teaching emanating from 105 Highland Place in Brooklyn. 

Dave Benke
Title: Re: The Lutheran Study Bible
Post by: Dave Likeness on January 28, 2013, 09:13:02 PM
Bishop Benke,

As I recall my days on that postage stamp campus
at Concordia, Milwaukee we got our Lutheran Bible
Study from two men.  The Law from Dean Ackmann
and the Gospel from Prexy Stuenkel.  One of them
talked like General George S. Patton and the other
spoke like Motivational Speaker Zig Ziglar.
Title: Re: The Lutheran Study Bible
Post by: Dave Benke on January 28, 2013, 09:32:34 PM
Bishop Benke,

As I recall my days on that postage stamp campus
at Concordia, Milwaukee we got our Lutheran Bible
Study from two men.  The Law from Dean Ackmann
and the Gospel from Prexy Stuenkel.  One of them
talked like General George S. Patton and the other
spoke like Motivational Speaker Zig Ziglar.

Yes, and oddly enough, you had to like both of them, all things considered.

Dave Benke
Title: Re: The Lutheran Study Bible
Post by: Dave Likeness on January 28, 2013, 09:51:00 PM
Dean Ackmann's job was to make men out of boys.
He felt that sports was one way to help future
pastors become mentally and physically tough.

Prexy Stuenkel 's job was to teach the Old
Testament in the classroom.  He tried to make
Bible scholars out of his students.

According to one former student, Basketball Coach
Ackmann told one player that he could help the
team more by playing in the band.  He immediately
walked out of the practice and never returned.
Title: Re: The Lutheran Study Bible
Post by: Dave Benke on January 29, 2013, 06:56:17 AM
Dean Ackmann's job was to make men out of boys.
He felt that sports was one way to help future
pastors become mentally and physically tough.

Prexy Stuenkel 's job was to teach the Old
Testament in the classroom.  He tried to make
Bible scholars out of his students.

According to one former student, Basketball Coach
Ackmann told one player that he could help the
team more by playing in the band.  He immediately
walked out of the practice and never returned.

I and my roommate were the starting guards on the HS team as seniors.  Our proctors were not fond of us, thinking us to be a couple of wise guys, so they heard us running up the stairs in a loud manner and remanded us to the kind of custody that would cost us playing in a game.  This was not happy news to the coach, who then had us meet with the proctors and Dean Ackmann.  Dean Ackmann indicated that he was most hopeful about the option that would eventuate in his kicking our posteriors through the far wall of the room.   He further instructed the proctors to keep a close watch on us so that he could accomplish that task the next time we did anything out of order.  He then instructed the proctors not to keep two good men from playing ball over a minor infraction.  And off we went.  Truth, justice and the American way.

Dave Benke
Title: Re: The Lutheran Study Bible
Post by: Harvey_Mozolak on January 29, 2013, 08:10:39 AM
Dave and Dave...

I cared not a bit for either man when I was there... Ralph Weinhold was more the personification of the Gospel and the Law was everywhere... however, I do recall that in the bad days before I left the LCMS, Walter WWWPQR Stuenkel was attacked as a liberal.  I recall meeting him at an Oh District Convention where he was the keynote speaker and during a break I walked up to him and said something to the effect that I had always thought if I was ever close enough to him again, post my being graduated, I would ahhh spit... or something like that distastfully.... BUT I now appologized for such unChristian thoughts and also said how sad it was that he was being thought to be a liberal...  (I assume it was because of how he taught OT 101 in part.....)  That is how bad things were and had then later become and look now I look to the right instead of the left...  enough to make you want to spit....    Harvey Mozolak
Title: Re: The Lutheran Study Bible
Post by: Dave Benke on January 29, 2013, 10:01:51 AM
Dave and Dave...

I cared not a bit for either man when I was there... Ralph Weinhold was more the personification of the Gospel and the Law was everywhere... however, I do recall that in the bad days before I left the LCMS, Walter WWWPQR Stuenkel was attacked as a liberal.  I recall meeting him at an Oh District Convention where he was the keynote speaker and during a break I walked up to him and said something to the effect that I had always thought if I was ever close enough to him again, post my being graduated, I would ahhh spit... or something like that distastfully.... BUT I now appologized for such unChristian thoughts and also said how sad it was that he was being thought to be a liberal...  (I assume it was because of how he taught OT 101 in part.....)  That is how bad things were and had then later become and look now I look to the right instead of the left...  enough to make you want to spit....    Harvey Mozolak

Ralph Weinhold - wow, great guy, with the bent toward English lit.   Very oddly, Walter Stuenkel did become identified later on as a "liberal."  What in the world.  His zeal for the work of the Church was and remains very important in the vocational decisions of our family.

Dave Benke

Dave Benke
Title: Re: The Lutheran Study Bible
Post by: John_Hannah on January 29, 2013, 10:08:59 AM
In the LCMS, knowing who is conservative and who is liberal is like a crap game in Las Vegas or Atlantic City. Up now; down in five minutes!

Remember Martin Scharlemann.


Peace, JOHN
Title: Re: The Lutheran Study Bible
Post by: mariemeyer on January 29, 2013, 10:28:22 AM
Pastor Tibbetts:

What do you make of the contradiction in The Lutheran Study Bible where notes conclude that St. Paul's use of "brothers" in I Cor. 12: 1 refers only to male siblings and the ESV footnote on 12:1 that says "or brothers or sisters."  (see page 1966) Which is it???

What do you make of the note on 12: 4-6 that states that the varieties of gifts and service are embodied in ministers? 

Sister Marie, in the notes you reference above, I see nothing that leads to a conclusion that 1 Cor. 12:1 refers solely to male siblings.

The note on in "brothers" on page 1901 that says here St. Paul is speaking "specifically for men who led congregations," emphasizing the maleness of the leaders, is not out of line as an interpretation, particularly in an age unwilling to acknowledge distinctions between males and females.  It is not that long ago that many would have simply presumed that was the interpretation.

The note is more restrictive than I would first interpret, but I do not think in terms of "every member a minister" nor "every minister a pastor." But that St. Paul is not automatically speaking of everyone here, as I've been taught to understand, is an interpretation worth pondering. Clearly Paul is speaking of "ministry" here, and I understand that to be more that The Ministry.

Pax, Steven+

I am confused.  On page 1901 the explanation for brothers does acknowledge it is a general term that Paul uses for fellow Christians, male and female Ii is followed with "However,Paul also used the term specifically for men who lead the congregation.  The example given is I Cor. 12:1.

The note on 12:1 directs the reader back to p. 1901 where the text is given as an example of where "brothers" refer specificallyfor men who led the congregation.  (The reasoning is rather circular.)

The note on chap 12-14 claims that congregational leaders are the "spiritual".  Again the reference is to the men who are congregational leaders.

On page 1902 gifts, charismata - are defined as gracious gifts or abilities from God, connected with an office of service in the congregation.  The "gifts" of I Cor. 12: 4-6 are "embodied in works of ministers, the 'spiritual' people."

regarding12:7  the note on each  reads...."each member of the body ("brother" v.1) (Does each member of the body refer to the brothers of v.1?)

The note on manisfestation of the Spirit read "The Spirit works through the brothers."

The confusion continues with the note on 14:26  "brothers" - the reader is again directed to the note on 12:1

Taken as a whole the notes on I Cor. 12-14 send a not so subtle message to women... these passages have a different meaning for you than they do for the "brothers," for the leaders in the congregation.  The spiritual gifts here are qualified.  Repeatedly the notes refer to the "spiritual" in v.1, the male brothers" of the congregation.


As stated yesterday. This text was the subject of Bible Class Sunday. As I sat in class and listened, the pastor interpreted the text in the way that included the entire class, not the two pastors who were part of the class.

Marie
Title: Re: The Lutheran Study Bible
Post by: Dave Benke on January 29, 2013, 12:04:33 PM
Pastor Tibbetts:

What do you make of the contradiction in The Lutheran Study Bible where notes conclude that St. Paul's use of "brothers" in I Cor. 12: 1 refers only to male siblings and the ESV footnote on 12:1 that says "or brothers or sisters."  (see page 1966) Which is it???

What do you make of the note on 12: 4-6 that states that the varieties of gifts and service are embodied in ministers? 

Sister Marie, in the notes you reference above, I see nothing that leads to a conclusion that 1 Cor. 12:1 refers solely to male siblings.

The note on in "brothers" on page 1901 that says here St. Paul is speaking "specifically for men who led congregations," emphasizing the maleness of the leaders, is not out of line as an interpretation, particularly in an age unwilling to acknowledge distinctions between males and females.  It is not that long ago that many would have simply presumed that was the interpretation.

The note is more restrictive than I would first interpret, but I do not think in terms of "every member a minister" nor "every minister a pastor." But that St. Paul is not automatically speaking of everyone here, as I've been taught to understand, is an interpretation worth pondering. Clearly Paul is speaking of "ministry" here, and I understand that to be more that The Ministry.

Pax, Steven+

I am confused.  On page 1901 the explanation for brothers does acknowledge it is a general term that Paul uses for fellow Christians, male and female Ii is followed with "However,Paul also used the term specifically for men who lead the congregation.  The example given is I Cor. 12:1.

The note on 12:1 directs the reader back to p. 1901 where the text is given as an example of where "brothers" refer specificallyfor men who led the congregation.  (The reasoning is rather circular.)

The note on chap 12-14 claims that congregational leaders are the "spiritual".  Again the reference is to the men who are congregational leaders.

On page 1902 gifts, charismata - are defined as gracious gifts or abilities from God, connected with an office of service in the congregation.  The "gifts" of I Cor. 12: 4-6 are "embodied in works of ministers, the 'spiritual' people."

regarding12:7  the note on each  reads...."each member of the body ("brother" v.1) (Does each member of the body refer to the brothers of v.1?)

The note on manisfestation of the Spirit read "The Spirit works through the brothers."

The confusion continues with the note on 14:26  "brothers" - the reader is again directed to the note on 12:1

Taken as a whole the notes on I Cor. 12-14 send a not so subtle message to women... these passages have a different meaning for you than they do for the "brothers," for the leaders in the congregation.  The spiritual gifts here are qualified.  Repeatedly the notes refer to the "spiritual" in v.1, the male brothers" of the congregation.


As stated yesterday. This text was the subject of Bible Class Sunday. As I sat in class and listened, the pastor interpreted the text in the way that included the entire class, not the two pastors who were part of the class.

Marie

The other two Pauline passages with regard to the gifts of the Spirit are Romans 12:1-8 and Ephesians 4.  The Ephesians 4 passage is very specific in its inclusive language around baptism (one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of us all).  I have always been convinced that the only appropriate Lutheran understanding of the gifts of the Spirit in the Body of Christ is to view these gifts as being received by and utilized among the communion of saints, that is, the baptized.  The related passage from Colossians 1 and 2 is also anchored in the reception of the imago dei in Christ through baptism and hence to a life of good and gifted works. 

This gets re-stated Lutheran-ly as the Unio Mystica, the mystical union of the Triune God with the baptized believer.

Dave Benke

Dave Benke
Title: Re: The Lutheran Study Bible
Post by: Dan Fienen on February 01, 2013, 05:09:20 PM
Has any progress been made by CPH or Amazon in correcting the problem with Kindle Paperwhite and TLSB?
 
Dan
Title: Re: The Lutheran Study Bible
Post by: Jay Michael on February 03, 2013, 05:46:34 PM
Has any progress been made by CPH or Amazon in correcting the problem with Kindle Paperwhite and TLSB?
 
Dan

 Hope this link helps. (http://cyberbrethren.com/2013/02/02/the-lutheran-study-bible-and-the-kindle-paperwhite-table-of-contents-problem-solution-found/comment-page-1/#comment-24303/)