ALPB Forum Online
ALPB => Your Turn => Topic started by: racin_jason on November 17, 2008, 04:51:46 PM
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There are some subjects that are not worthy of an entire thread, but worth discussing. Lutheranism expresses itself in many ways on both sides of the Atlantic and Pacific.
Submit any questions you might have here.
Welcome to the only thread intentionally designed for drift.
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There are some subjects that are not worthy of an entire thread, but worth discussing. Lutheranism expresses itself in many ways on both sides of the Atlantic and Pacific.
Submit any questions you might have here.
Welcome to the only thread intentionally designed for drift.
Sex. Politics. Just wanted to eliminate any suspense.
Mike Bennett
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Part of the vocabulary encounted on this forum is use of the term "Lutheran Symbols". This term is not common usage in the ELCA. I thought it was only a select few LCMS pastors who used it, but in the latest issue of "The Witness", President Kieschnick said "Lutheran Symbols" in his article inside the back cover.
I confess to finding the term confusing. Others here have indicated the same through offline exchanges.
Could someone explain to the rest of us what, exactly, the Lutheran Symbols are, and where the phrase comes from.
Thanks
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Thanks for getting those two out of the way, Mike. We've come to expect these two topics to show up on any given thread sooner or later. Thanks for ending the suspense... it only took one post, three minutes after the thread was created, no less.
Another question: Red Doors on Lutheran Churches. There are some who insist the doors on the front of a Lutheran church should be painted red. I've met Episcopalians who say the same thing about their doors.
Red doors are not common on churches in the Holy Land of Minnesota. Other regions I've lived and ministered (the Northeast, the South) have churches with red doors, and I've met people in these places who say a Lutheran church must have a red door. The church I serve now has red doors. It is only 20 years old, but nobody can tell me why. Sure, doors are significant to Lutherans, but can that be the reason?
Where does this come from? What's the deal?
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Part of the vocabulary encounted on this forum is use of the term "Lutheran Symbols". This term is not common usage in the ELCA. I thought it was only a select few LCMS pastors who used it, but in the latest issue of "The Witness", President Kieschnick said "Lutheran Symbols" in his article inside the back cover.
I confess to finding the term confusing. Others here have indicated the same through offline exchanges.
Could someone explain to the rest of us what, exactly, the Lutheran Symbols are, and where the phrase comes from.
Thanks
The Lutheran Symbols are the individual parts of the Lutheran Confessions as found in the Book of Concord. In other words, collectively the "Symbols" are the Book of Concord, but each document therein, ie. the Unaltered Augsburg Confession, the Smalcald Articles, the Apology, etc. are the individual Lutheran Symbols. They are the banner or the sign that the Lutheran Church "flies" to identify themselves, hence the use of the word "Symbol."
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and the study of the Lutheran Confessional Symbols (really should have the modifying adjective to keep Luther's Rose out of the definition) was in the days when you studied Isagogics, Hermeneutics-- Symbolics and not symbolism. Harvey Mozolak
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Red doors are not common on churches in the Holy Land of Minnesota. Other regions I've lived and ministered (the Northeast, the South) have churches with red doors, and I've met people in these places who say a Lutheran church must have a red door. The church I serve now has red doors. It is only 20 years old, but nobody can tell me why. Sure, doors are significant to Lutherans, but can that be the reason?
Where does this come from? What's the deal?
I've always understood it to come from a conflation of several verses of John 10; in which Jesus describes Himself both as the "door to the sheep" and as the Good Shepherd who lays down his life for the sheep.
Red = blood = Good Shepherd's sacrifice = door to earthly sheepfold.
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(really should have the modifying adjective to keep Luther's Rose out of the definition)
A question I've had -- isn't the rose a traditional symbol of Mary? If so, does this change the interpretation of the "Luther Rose"? Is there any historical data to indicate that Mary may have been in mind?
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The Formula of Concord (Ep, Summary Rule, 4) already refers to the Augsburg Confession as "our symbol for this time" (dieser Zeit unserem Symbolo). The use of the term "symbol" for creed goes back at least as far as the Council of Chalcedon (451), which refers to the Nicene Creed as a "symbolon." Latin usage was similar: Augustine's "On Faith and the Creed" is in the Latin original "De Fide et Symbolo" (393). Pelikan, in his book "Credo" (p. 7) simply says the the Greek symbolon and the Latin symbolum were, with "regula fidei", among the earliest terms for creeds. The Catechism of the Catholic Church (para. 188) explains: "The Greek word symbolon meant half of a broken object, for example, a seal presented as a token of recognition. the broken parts were placed together to verify the bearer's identity. the symbol of faith, then, is a sign of recognition and communion between believers. Symbolon also means a gathering, collection or summary. A symbol of faith is a summary of the principal truths of the faith and therefore serves as the first and fundamental point of reference for catechesis."
Michael (wasting time after dinner rather than getting to work) Root
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would be cool, wouldn't it... rose of Sharon and all... but isn't the BVM's flower the lily and the lily of the valley, supposedly based on St. Thomas looking into her grave after she was assumed and finding nothing but lilies and roses, a story we assume is not true… the fleur de lis is certainly her symbol (and I assume the Trinity it represents is also her confession because she did not get a chance to sign the Augsburg Confession I don't believe)… but Luther I read picked a Rose in his crest-thing to show joy as of the saints and angels (Mary being one of them) but her color is blue and there are not too many blue roses, especially in pre-scientific days…. but his treatise on the Magnificat is a real rosary around that song! And Luther tended to be solely a _Totus Tuus_ guy with her Son... do you have any evidence that his rose related to things Marian?
Harvey Mozolak
A question I've had -- isn't the rose a traditional symbol of Mary? If so, does this change the interpretation of the "Luther Rose"? Is there any historical data to indicate that Mary may have been in mind?
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and a bit more of the misc. Mary's rose is thornless and in the Middle Ages it was believed that the white roses in Paradise are said to have blushed red when the BVM kissed them. Is ML's rose of the kissed variety, heavenly as he calls it? Harvey Mozolak
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On Symbol, might be of interest to note that in early Lutheran liturgical documents the Te Deum was frequently called: The Symbol of Sts. Ambrose and Augustine - based on the medieval legend that it arose from those two on the occasion of St. Augustine's baptism.
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Is it just me, or does no one see the obvious confusion that using a medieval definition of a word that now has come to have a totally different meaning in 21st Century English? We translate much of what was written in 16th century German into 20th century English, why isn't the word "symbol" similarly replaced with the word that people today would clearly understand? Or is that one of those inside things meant to keep the riff-raff excluded?
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I never call them "the symbols" and hardly ever hear them referred to as such, at least not in the circles I travel in. When I teach the Confessions, I only refer to the term "symbol" in relation to the Formula calling the Augsburg Confession a "symbol."
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Racin' Jason asks:
Another question: Red Doors on Lutheran Churches. There are some who insist the doors on the front of a Lutheran church should be painted red. I've met Episcopalians who say the same thing about their doors.
I reply:
You should know this.
One source says, "Those red doors you saw when you entered church today signify that we enter the church throught the blood of Christ."
Another source says, "Those red doors mean this congregation's in debt. Those doors will stay red until we're out of the red."
Take your choice.
John Ericksen
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Back in the day when I was at seminary (yes, I know it was not yesterday), the word "Symbol" was used quite freely. We even had a course in "comparative symbolics." I know that George agrees with my buddy Mark (he who needs to repent of that low church stuff... ;) ) that we shouldn't use the language that the Symbols (alright, alright, the CONFESSIONS - how is that any clearer this day and age, by the way?) use, but always adjust to contemporary usage. But I've always tried to teach my people the language of the Symbols and show them that this is their heritage. They can talk about the Mass, about Absolution, and yes, about Symbols. It's probably a hopelessly losing case, but I'm still plugging away at it - NOT to cut anyone out, but to cut everyone IN to their own heritage as Lutheran Christians.
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Back in the day when I was at seminary (yes, I know it was not yesterday), the word "Symbol" was used quite freely. We even had a course in "comparative symbolics." I know that George agrees with my buddy Mark (he who needs to repent of that low church stuff... ;) ) that we shouldn't use the language that the Symbols (alright, alright, the CONFESSIONS - how is that any clearer this day and age, by the way?) use, but always adjust to contemporary usage. But I've always tried to teach my people the language of the Symbols and show them that this is their heritage. They can talk about the Mass, about Absolution, and yes, about Symbols. It's probably a hopelessly losing case, but I'm still plugging away at it - NOT to cut anyone out, but to cut everyone IN to their own heritage as Lutheran Christians.
Aye, thou doest explaineth it fairly and well. Forsooth, methinkest that thy position doth possess much merit. It thy congregation or others thou speakth unto to ken not the gist of thy words, tis the lacking of the hearer that beareth the brunt of the blame. And 'tis the ear of the hearer that needeth remedy in understanding and not thy mode of speech.
And pray share with us, doth thou use naught but the Authorized translation of the Bible that was commissioned by none other than King James of England when thou readeth the Holy Scriptures aloud to thy flock?
Regarding thy quest to include everyone into their heritage as Lutheran Christians, Är majoriteten av dina congregationättlingar av Germans eller svenskar?
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LOL, George! Okay, okay. So I confess to LOVING the AV - but at our parish we use the ESV exclusively. It's pretty straight-forward English, only a tad stilted. My AV, by the way, is a facsimile reprint of the original and it has the darndest spellings! Nothing is consistent. But it's part of the fun.
But I'd ask what I asked before: Confessions as a technical term is totally unclear to the modern English reader too. The very notion OF Symbols/Confessions isn't on the modern radar screen. So if you have to teach what they are anyway, why not use the name THEY use for themselves?
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but they must not be called symbols because Lutherans who are not reformed and will never be, say, "THIS IS our Confession!" Harvey Mozolak
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So if you have to teach what they are anyway, why not use the name THEY use for themselves?
For many, many years, I've heard in the liturgy "Let us confess our faith" as an introduction to the Apostles or Nicene Creed. So, saying that our confessions is where we state what we believe isn't much of a linguistic stretch. It's something that's really easy to get across to people almost instantly. "Symbols", on the other hand, in 20th Century English refers to pictorial images that represent something else, such as a swoosh is a symbol for Nike, or Na is the symbol for sodium. I'll not argue that it didn't mean something very different almost five centuries ago. But that's what it means today.
So you have the choice of using the modern translation for a word so that you can go straight into teaching the content of the confessions themselves, or you can use another word with a totally different archaic meaning and spend a bunch of time first explaining why they're called by a name that makes no sense to modern ears, and then you can go on to explain the content of the confessions. That doesn't make much sense to me.
On the other hand, not translating the archaic name of the confessions into 20th century English does seem to be an effective way to drive the wedge between the LC-MS and ELCA even deeper. It's one more small step to exclude Lutherans like me.
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Harvey,
LOL!
George,
But it's your heritage too, not an exclusive LCMS term by any stretch. The greatest American Lutheran theologian has probably been Charles Porterfield Krauth - he's YOUR man -and he uses the term repeatedly (right alongside Confessions) in his *The Conservative Reformation.* That's a book written in English a century or so ago. Not TOO antiquated by any means.
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Harvey,
LOL!
George,
But it's your heritage too, not an exclusive LCMS term by any stretch. The greatest American Lutheran theologian has probably been Charles Porterfield Krauth - he's YOUR man -and he uses the term repeatedly (right alongside Confessions) in his *The Conservative Reformation.* That's a book written in English a century or so ago. Not TOO antiquated by any means.
How many Lutheran people sitting in the pews who didn't go to seminary and who aren't on a first-name basis with noted theologians from a century ago would recognize the use of the word "Symbols" in the context that you use it? And, if Krauth wrote a book a century ago, and the ELCA was founded two decades ago, how can you say he's "our" man?
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How about another miscellaneous question of a deep theological nature. For all my Lutheran life (since I was baptized in 1958), nearly every Lutheran church I attended as a member or visitor (including LCMS) has used Mogen David red wine for the Sacrament. I don't get it; why use that pancake syrup when there are perfectly good German (and American) wines available at a cheap price. Using white wine from Germany would provoke discussions about what type of wine Luther would have used; my guess is white wine, because that's what was commonly produced in Germany, but I don't know for sure.
Anyhow, is there anything in the AC or BoC that dictates we have to use cheap red wine blessed by rabbis? ???
Kurt
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Anyhow, is there anything in the AC or BoC that dictates we have to use cheap red wine blessed by rabbis? ???
Kurt
I believe the tradition was based on the idea that at the Last Super (which was a Seder), Jesus and the Apostles would have been drinking kosher wine. However, in the churches I've been a member of, they usually used what the French would call "vin ordinaire", often from a winery run by monks.
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Hmmm, since Lutheranism's origins are Germanic, maybe we should use the term "tafelwein" as opposed to the French term. And of course, red wine was common in France from its days as Gallia, along with the rest of the Greco-Roman world. But what of that common wine available to 16th century Germans---it should have been weisswein, right? I seem to remember stopping at a wine museum on the Mosel (east of Trier somewhere) and reading that after the Romans, only white wine was grown in the region (I may have lost something in translation, however). Since the Romans never made it to the Elbe, it would make sense that wine grown there (or in nearby Franken) would probably have been white as well.
I still don't understand why altar guild ladies of several generations insist on Mogen David wine. ??? Anyhow, no sense in buying kosher wine in the first place since we aren't required to keep kosher, unless I missed that section in the new ELW.......
Kurt Martin Weinelt
(Thinking that if white wine was good enough for my saint-namesake, it's good enough for me! 8))
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How about another miscellaneous question of a deep theological nature. For all my Lutheran life (since I was baptized in 1958), nearly every Lutheran church I attended as a member or visitor (including LCMS) has used Mogen David red wine for the Sacrament.
That rot gut had not passed my lips for years and years, and now I've encountered it twice in the last month. Ugh! I'm surprised any congregation that uses it can manage to have Eucharist every Sunday.
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Arthur Carl Piepkorn, of blessed memory, used to assert confidently that classic Lutherans actually had a preference for white wine. He associated it, of course, with Confessional reasoning. The Lutherans did not want to be thought to be celebrating only the "remembrance" with red wine reminding us of blood. After living in Germany I wondered if it might have only been due to the prepondrance of white wine there. Today Germans produce only a very tiny amount of red wine.
Peace, JOHN HANNAH
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George,
Your man in the sense that the General Council Synods are predecessor bodies to the ELCA and were never part of the LCMS (though Krauth was highly respected in the Missouri Synod even back then). But why not EDUCATE the people to their heritage? That seems to be where we part company, and I don't understand the reluctance to teach folks the richness that is our Lutheran heritage rather than settling for current experience and practice.
As to the others on Mogan David - YUCK. We DO use it. The people insist on it and talk about how much they like its flavor. When we tried to substitute, they were having no parts of it. Syrup indeed!
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Arthur Carl Piepkorn, of blessed memory, used to assert confidently that classic Lutherans actually had a preference for white wine. He associated it, of course, with Confessional reasoning. The Lutherans did not want to be thought to be celebrating only the "remembrance" with red wine reminding us of blood. After living in Germany I wondered if it might have only been due to the prepondrance of white wine there. Today Germans produce only a very tiny amount of red wine.
Peace, JOHN HANNAH
Question: to be served properly, shouldn't white wine be chilled?
Comment (from another): A pastor of another church, when they served white wine would state: "We had anemic Jesus this morning."
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But why not EDUCATE the people to their heritage? That seems to be where we part company, and I don't understand the reluctance to teach folks the richness that is our Lutheran heritage rather than settling for current experience and practice.
I'm not talking about teaching. I'm talking about choosing to use terms in everyday speech that many of the people you're speaking to don't understand. If there is to be teaching of the entire sum total of our Lutheran Heritage, it is something that would have be a process. It can't happen all at once. A lesson plan would have to be developed that determine which things should be included in Chapter 1, which things belong in Chapter 2, etc. There would also be which things are interesting curiosities worthy of a little side-bar. The fact that the Confessions used to be called "Symbols" many centuries ago, but are now only referred to as such by one or two authors from a century ago or people who like to show off their deep knowledge of Lutheran lore is something that belongs in such a side-bar. That's a little more important than Katie Luther's recipe for beer, but not by a lot.
Now, you want to talk teaching Lutherans about the content of the confessions, then you'll find me to be a strong advocate of that. But I'm afraid making a big deal out of the fact that we used to call the Confessions the Symbols is right up there with explaining why church doors are painted red.
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Do any of you know if surveys have been done to find out what LCMS and ELCA pastors are doing on a regular basis to evangelize unchurched people in their communities? and if they are not regularly evangelizing, what is the reason?
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Perhaps another important question to ask is:
What is everyone doing to evangelize in their various/respective vocations and stations in life?
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The reason I asked is if pastors aren't evangelizing they can't expect the laity to do it and if neither pastors nor laity are evangelizing how do they expect the church to stop declining? I went to one of those "Great Commission Convocations" the LCMS was having back in the 1980s where they had a workshop entitled "How to lead a person to Christ". The entire session was on theology of evangelism, "don't do this, don't use "Four Spirtual Laws" don't do etc etc". We learned nothing practical that we could walk out the door and start evangelizing. It was all just patting ourselves on our backs for our correct theology. Sorry I'm ranting.
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"Symbols", on the other hand, in 20th Century English refers to pictorial images that represent something else, such as a swoosh is a symbol for Nike, or Na is the symbol for sodium. I'll not argue that it didn't mean something very different almost five centuries ago. But that's what it means today.
I won't speak for your context, George, but in my contexts there are all sorts of words that mean more than one thing. Then again, take "confess" outside of a Lutheran congregation in your context, and I daresay people will find your "linguistic stretch" hopelessly and meaninglessly archiac. After all, everywhere else in this day and age, "confess" is only for actions and thoughts that we wish we hadn't been caught doing.
Frankly, though, I don't believe I learned everything I needed to know in Kindergarten, and I'm not going to treat adults that way.
Since this is an ALPB Forum forum, it seems to me that A. C Piepkorn's consistent usage of "Symbols" ought to be acceptable.
pax, spt+
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Do any of you know if surveys have been done to find out what LCMS and ELCA pastors are doing on a regular basis to evangelize unchurched people in their communities? and if they are not regularly evangelizing, what is the reason?
When did it become the primary responsibility of pastors to evangelize unchurched people in the community? While I believe ALL Christians, pastors and lay, have a responsibility in this area, this question seems to imply that it is the pastor's responsibility. Is it not the pastor's primary responsibility to preach the Law and Gospel in truth and purity and administer the Sacraments? This is ministry to all people in the community, unchurched and churched.
Each of us has a responsibility to witness to the Good News of Jesus in our every day life...at work, at home, in our neighborhoods. Faith comes from hearing the Word...from pastors and lay people.
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As to the others on Mogan David - YUCK. We DO use it. The people insist on it and talk about how much they like its flavor. When we tried to substitute, they were having no parts of it. Syrup indeed!
I served as the Protestant Chaplain at a Veteran's Home in Massachusetts for several years. They ordered an amber wine from some monastery in California. It was strong stuff (I'm sure it could take the paint off a wall). During communion one Sunday, I communed one old vet who gagged on it and promptly cried out, "What the HELL was that?" I nearly doubled over from laughing so hard. After that, we communed by intinction.
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Do any of you know if surveys have been done to find out what LCMS and ELCA pastors are doing on a regular basis to evangelize unchurched people in their communities? and if they are not regularly evangelizing, what is the reason?
When did it become the primary responsibility of pastors to evangelize unchurched people in the community? While I believe ALL Christians, pastors and lay, have a responsibility in this area, this question seems to imply that it is the pastor's responsibility. Is it not the pastor's primary responsibility to preach the Law and Gospel in truth and purity and administer the Sacraments? This is ministry to all people in the community, unchurched and churched.
Each of us has a responsibility to witness to the Good News of Jesus in our every day life...at work, at home, in our neighborhoods. Faith comes from hearing the Word...from pastors and lay people.
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Of course it is the responsibility of all Christians. But another responsibility of pastors is to "equip the saints" to do ministry, including evangelization. If the pastors aren't doing it, what kind of an example is that? The pastors are supposed to set the right example. If there is going to a renewed passion among the people for personal evangelization, it seems to me, it has to start with the pastors setting the example or motivated lay people setting the example.
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Do any of you know if surveys have been done to find out what LCMS and ELCA pastors are doing on a regular basis to evangelize unchurched people in their communities? and if they are not regularly evangelizing, what is the reason?
There is no question that it is the responsibility of every Christian to do evangelism. But if the pastor doesn't model it, doesn't equip the saints to evangelize, then it aint gonna happen. We all can agree on that.
But I will add that most Lutheran congregations are so enculturated to a chaplaincy-style of the office, that the system resists accomodating a mission-minded pastor. Most pastors' schedules are overbooked already. To add "Go Evangelize" to the job description means something else will have to give. If a pastor asked a congregation "What responsibility would you like me to stop doing now so that can take some time to work on evangelism", most likely the response would be silence.
I have taken on projects of evangelism. I have gone door knocking in our neighboorhood and made other attemps to engage the unchurched. Not much really came out of those efforts, which were simply add-ons to my full schedule. But the congregation saw my effort, and some have followed suit in small ways.
It's been said here before, and I will say it again. The best evangelism happens when lay people invite other lay people to worship. One statistic I heard was that if a person invites another person (with whom they have a positive relationship) to worship AND OFFER TO DRIVE, that 75% of the time, the invitee will respond with a "yes".
Recently at worship I noticed one pew that contained three men who made up a string of invitations. One longtime member had invited another fellow to church a couple years ago. He joined. On this particuliar sunday, that new guy had invited a neighboor of his to worship. Seeing that pew occupied by a string of invitations gave me hope for the future.
It's good that you raised the question of evangelism. But please consider how your fellow members might do evangelism too, or figure out ways you can support your pastor so that he can devote some time for training others for the effort.
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Arthur Carl Piepkorn, of blessed memory, used to assert confidently that classic Lutherans actually had a preference for white wine. He associated it, of course, with Confessional reasoning. The Lutherans did not want to be thought to be celebrating only the "remembrance" with red wine reminding us of blood. After living in Germany I wondered if it might have only been due to the prepondrance of white wine there. Today Germans produce only a very tiny amount of red wine.
Peace, JOHN HANNAH
The tradition's a lot older than Piepkorn (or Lutherans). Gordon Lathrop maintains (someplace that I don't want to bother looking up) that the use of white wine is the oldest recorded preference -- most of the way back to apostolic times. It may indicate a revulsion against the identification of the accidence with the substance.
The true reason, I believe, is because the early medieval church had stern altar guilds and sloppy priests.
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[The tradition's a lot older than Piepkorn (or Lutherans). Gordon Lathrop maintains (someplace that I don't want to bother looking up) that the use of white wine is the oldest recorded preference -- most of the way back to apostolic times. It may indicate a revulsion against the identification of the accidence with the substance.
The true reason, I believe, is because the early medieval church had stern altar guilds and sloppy priests.
I've encountered a few stern medieval altar guilds in this day and time.... ;D
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I've encountered a few stern medieval altar guilds in this day and time.... ;D
The greatest challenge I ever faced in a church was when I was appointed head of the Worship and Music committee and came up against the well entrenched church ladies. Their collective attitude was best described by one of them who refused nomination to the Board every year who said "I was born in this church, baptised in this church, and married in this church. This is my church. You've only been a member here for a few years, so you aren't going to tell us how to do things." This was a response to my suggestion that since we had a large inventory of albs that we used to use a choir robes before we replaced them with Geneva style choir robes, we should let the lay lectors have the option of wearing an alb with no stole when they read the lessons. This was common practice in many ELCA churches, and I polled all of the lectors in advance, and most of them were very enthusiastic about the idea.
But I think this also is an important consideration when it comes to any sort of evangelism. The nasty little truth that is seldom spoken aloud in too many churches is the fear that if there is any influx of new members, some of those new members might not fit in quite the way some people might want. For every member who says aloud "I wish we had more members to help cook parish suppers" there are others thinking silently to themselves "I hope no one who is a better cook than me comes a long and displaces me from my position cooking parish suppers".
There's also the issue being discussed in the thread about the European American Lutheran Association. Since moving to Atlanta, at work and when out and about, I interact with far more people who are of a different ethnic or racial background than me. The only place where I am mostly (but fortunately not exclusively) surrounded by other people of northern European ancestry is at the local Lutheran church. I don't make friends easily. When I do, it's usually with people I meet in church. I don't have any real friends outside of church, though I have many acquaintances through work whose company I enjoy at work. So, I agree that the best method of getting new people to come and participate in the ministry of a church is through direct personal invitation of friends, especially when measured by the standard of a percentage rate of people making that first visit who go on to participate in the church's life on a regular basis. But I still contend that if that's the one basket in which all of the evangelism eggs are placed, it won't reach as many people as need to be reached, and it won't reach the large numbers of people who aren't members of the ethnic demographic that already dominates the Lutheran church.
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Praise God that most every aspect of the Lutheran understanding of Christianity makes sense to me. Yet it is time to release into cyberspace one reservation I have about our faith, one I have never shared with anyone before: Luther's numbering of the Ten Commandments. He kept the Roman Catholic numbering, and I need help in understanding why.
As most here are aware of, Lutherans and Catholics have one numbering system, while other denominations and the Jewish faith have their own numbering. In the Lutheran numbering, we have #1 regarding "You shall have no other Gods before me" with subsequent elaboration on what that means, and then continuing with #2 being the name in vain commandment. Then, at the end, we have two commandments about coveting: #9 You shall not covet your neighboor's house and #10 You shall not covet your neighboor's wife, slaves, donkey, nor anything else that is your neighboors".
Why divide the covet-commandments, designating two to that issue, but collapse the "I am the Lord your God-You shall have no other Gods - You shall not make yourself an idol" into one?
What is at stake is whether the commandment regarding idols is worthy of a stand-alone commandment, versus having two at the end about coveting (which seems redundant to me).
Personally, I like the Jewish numbering, which puts "I am the Lord Your God" as the first, stand-alone commandment, and then makes #2 "You shall have no other Gods before me, you shall have no idols" and then closes with #10 on coveting. However, it is difficult to say "I am the Lord your God" is a commandment, more a statement of introduction.
I read in a biography on Dietrich Bonhoeffer that during his work in the Confessing Church that he attempted to re-number the commandments, but it didn't say how he numbered them. It was comforting to know I wasn't alone in this issue.
The bottom line:
Does anybody know if Luther wrestled with this question at all, or did he simply transfer the numbering system unquestioned?
Does anybody know how Bonhoeffer numbered the commandments during his time in the Confessing Church?
Can anybody suggest why the R.C/Lutheran numbering is preferable to other numbering systems?
Thanks.
RJ
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I suppose everyone has different concerns and priorities; and that some questions are of casual interest, if not critical: but I just can't get very concerned over how the commandments are numbered or why Luther (or anyone else) chose a particular system.
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I suppose everyone has different concerns and priorities; and that some questions are of casual interest, if not critical: but I just can't get very concerned over how the commandments are numbered or why Luther (or anyone else) chose a particular system.
I do think that it's significant. The Hebrew Bible refers to them, literally, as "The Ten Words" (see NRSV footnotes at Ex 34:28; Dt 4:24; 20:4). For them, it is clear that the first word from God is not a command: "I am the LORD your God who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery." The "Ten Words" begin with God's actions on behalf of his people, not with commands placed on the people.
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This was an issue that was quite acute at the time of the Reformation; I'd have to go back and look up the reference to this, but in the polemics between the Lutherans and the Calvinists/Zwinglians, one side (I forget which one) slandered the other as "those who misnumber the commandments."
There are certainly some interesting theological issues, even if Charles doesn't think so; likely the Reformed separated out the "idolatry" one because of their iconoclastic sentiments. Luther followed Augustine, and the theological issue here is probably more a question of "how do we receive tradition." Doing a little web surfing on sites that try to explain this, I found one that quite seriously argued for why the "Protestant" numbering is what God intended, and why the Catholics "changed" God's intention. But actually the Roman Catholic Church has never ruled dogmatically on this, and the current Catholic Catechism allows for diversity.
I found one page--not quite sure who the author is, but it seems a fairly objective and accurate analysis of the issues involved. Check it out at http://www.cin.org/users/james/files/numberng.htm (http://www.cin.org/users/james/files/numberng.htm) if you are interested.
Reminds me of a summer camp experience back in my Methodist days. We were doing some kind of Bible game and one question had to do with naming the 10 Commandments. Out of some 100 teenagers, the only person who could name all ten was a Roman Catholic girl who had come along with a friend--but of course from the point of view of the Methodist pastor who was judging the answers, her answer was "wrong" (but I stepped in and explained why her answer should be considred "right" and her team got the point). :)
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If memory serves, Zwingli and Calvin both very much wanted to get the "no graven images" phrase into its own "stand alone" commandment in order to justify their iconoclastic tedency in re. to any visual depiction of our Lord, or any aspect of the faith. Ironically, the greatest users of icons, the Eastern Church, also numbers the commandments to make "no graven images" its own separate commandment. To this day, this legacy results in Presbyterian and other Reformed churches looking cold and sterile on the inside. Makes me shiver each time I go into one of them. Of course, images like this, make a conservative Calvinist feel quite uneasy: http://cyberbrethren.typepad.com/cranachinweimar/
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I've encountered a few stern medieval altar guilds in this day and time.... ;D
The greatest challenge I ever faced in a church was when I was appointed head of the Worship and Music committee and came up against the well entrenched church ladies. Their collective attitude was best described by one of them who refused nomination to the Board every year who said "I was born in this church, baptised in this church, and married in this church. This is my church. You've only been a member here for a few years, so you aren't going to tell us how to do things." This was a response to my suggestion that since we had a large inventory of albs that we used to use a choir robes before we replaced them with Geneva style choir robes, we should let the lay lectors have the option of wearing an alb with no stole when they read the lessons. This was common practice in many ELCA churches, and I polled all of the lectors in advance, and most of them were very enthusiastic about the idea.
I also used to serve on the Worship committee at a former congregation. However, over time, I have become convinced that these committees are not healthy. First, I think it is primarily the Pastor's responsibility to plan Worship, to include hymn selection to go with the appointed readings of the day, in consultation with the organist/choir director. I also think the Pastor should be making sure that choir selections meet the appropriate doctrinal standards for incorporation in the Divine Service.
I have concerns when the Worship committee usurps the authority of the Pastor in this regard, or at least thinks it has that ability. This area is one of the most important, visible roles of the Pastor, and one that should not have a committee that has a lot of sway over it.
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I've encountered a few stern medieval altar guilds in this day and time.... ;D
The greatest challenge I ever faced in a church was when I was appointed head of the Worship and Music committee and came up against the well entrenched church ladies. Their collective attitude was best described by one of them who refused nomination to the Board every year who said "I was born in this church, baptised in this church, and married in this church. This is my church. You've only been a member here for a few years, so you aren't going to tell us how to do things." This was a response to my suggestion that since we had a large inventory of albs that we used to use a choir robes before we replaced them with Geneva style choir robes, we should let the lay lectors have the option of wearing an alb with no stole when they read the lessons. This was common practice in many ELCA churches, and I polled all of the lectors in advance, and most of them were very enthusiastic about the idea.
I also used to serve on the Worship committee at a former congregation. However, over time, I have become convinced that these committees are not healthy. First, I think it is primarily the Pastor's responsibility to plan Worship, to include hymn selection to go with the appointed readings of the day, in consultation with the organist/choir director. I also think the Pastor should be making sure that choir selections meet the appropriate doctrinal standards for incorporation in the Divine Service.
I have concerns when the Worship committee usurps the authority of the Pastor in this regard, or at least thinks it has that ability. This area is one of the most important, visible roles of the Pastor, and one that should not have a committee that has a lot of sway over it.
I agree. We have an active worship committee, but it does not deal with the nitty gritty decisions about individual sermons; more larger questions, and generally not in a directive way but more a sounding board for me as pastor.
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I also used to serve on the Worship committee at a former congregation. However, over time, I have become convinced that these committees are not healthy. First, I think it is primarily the Pastor's responsibility to plan Worship, to include hymn selection to go with the appointed readings of the day, in consultation with the organist/choir director. I also think the Pastor should be making sure that choir selections meet the appropriate doctrinal standards for incorporation in the Divine Service.
I have concerns when the Worship committee usurps the authority of the Pastor in this regard, or at least thinks it has that ability. This area is one of the most important, visible roles of the Pastor, and one that should not have a committee that has a lot of sway over it.
I've never heard of a Worship & Music Committee meddling in the content of the Pastor's sermons, or in selecting the individual hymns. Every one I've ever known of was basically the Altar Guild, responsible for seeing to it that all paraments were properly cared for, the ones with the correct color were used each Sunday, that the flowers for the Altar were ordered and paid for, plus bookkeeping on memorial donations for flowers, and issues like that. When the choir director needed sheet music, it was the responsibility of the Worship & Music committee to acquire what was needed. The Worship & Music committee was responsible for seeing that the pianos were kept in tune, and the organ and PA system maintained in good repair. They also made sure that there was always an adequate supply of appropriate wine and wafers for Communion. They were in charge of making sure that the choir and acolyte robes were cleaned and pressed as needed. If the pastor were to announce that he wanted a particular program for Wednesday evenings in Lent, it was the Worship & Music committee's responsibility to make it happen as he wanted it to happen.
The committee I mentioned earlier did an outstanding job of carrying out their ministry. The functioned like a well-oiled machine, taking care of all the details that needed to be taken care of. They simply didn't want anyone suggesting that they do anything within the scope of their duties the least bit different from the way that they always did it.
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For the pastors: How many times must member of a neighboring Lutheran worship church worship at your church before you call the other pastor informing the pastor that this is happening?
3? 5? 0?
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It depends upon my conversations with the visitors.
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For the pastors: How many times must member of a neighboring Lutheran worship church worship at your church before you call the other pastor informing the pastor that this is happening?
3? 5? 0?
Depends, but if they ask for an offering envelope, or put a large check in (I don't know the amount, but the Fin. Secretary would let me know) there's something up...
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Yes, and then the pastor should talk with the people first; and have them contact the pastor where they are members. Then the two pastors should talk. There are valid reasons for shifting congregations; but it should not be done lightly.
Example: a family joined the church where I was the pastor because we had weekly communion and their other church had just chosen not to do so. Example: A family shifted congregations because they were bringing an elderly parent to church and the "new" church was more handicapped accessible.
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For the pastors: How many times must member of a neighboring Lutheran worship church worship at your church before you call the other pastor informing the pastor that this is happening?
3? 5? 0?
More times than not, over the years, I have not known if a guest at our services was a member of another congregation, and if so of what congregation. If any guest at our services has filled out an "I will commune" card and indicated their home congregation, I have had a notice that they communed with us sent to their home congregation (Lutheran or not). Usually, when anyone that I knew was a member of a neighboring congregation (again, Lutheran or not) has been more than an occasional guest at the congregation where was the pastor, and I have been acquainted with their pastor, I have spoken to their pastor about this. The exceptions to this, that I can remember, were the husbands or wives of members of the congregation where I was the pastor.
Mel Harris
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For the pastors: How many times must member of a neighboring Lutheran worship church worship at your church before you call the other pastor informing the pastor that this is happening?
3? 5? 0?
More times than not, over the years, I have not known if a guest at our services was a member of another congregation, and if so of what congregation. If any guest at our services has filled out an "I will commune" card and indicated their home congregation, I have had a notice that they communed with us sent to their home congregation (Lutheran or not). Usually, when anyone that I knew was a member of a neighboring congregation (again, Lutheran or not) has been more than an occasional guest at the congregation where was the pastor, and I have been acquainted with their pastor, I have spoken to their pastor about this. The exceptions to this, that I can remember, were the husbands or wives of members of the congregation where I was the pastor.
Mel Harris
Hi Mel. Haven't heard from you in a while.
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It's spring and time to recognize the high school seniors.
Somehow the decision has fallen on my lap to determine what token gift we give our seniors. Mrs. Racin' is too pregnant to help me out this time, so naturally I am turning to this forum for Lutheran answers to Lutheran challenges.
How does your congregation recognize your high school graduates and what gift might you give them?
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It's spring and time to recognize the high school seniors.
Somehow the decision has fallen on my lap to determine what token gift we give our seniors. Mrs. Racin' is too pregnant to help me out this time, so naturally I am turning to this forum for Lutheran answers to Lutheran challenges.
How does your congregation recognize your high school graduates and what gift might you give them?
I just discovered (because there were no graduates last year) that we give a quilt to the high school graduates made by our Sew Much Fun group. The date that was set for "graduation Sunday" is also Pentecost. I will be emphasizing the Holy Spirit more than the graduates. Come to think of it, the idea of "Comforter" could work for the Spirit and the quilt!
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It's spring and time to recognize the high school seniors.
Somehow the decision has fallen on my lap to determine what token gift we give our seniors. Mrs. Racin' is too pregnant to help me out this time, so naturally I am turning to this forum for Lutheran answers to Lutheran challenges.
How does your congregation recognize your high school graduates and what gift might you give them?
I don't have a bulletin in front of me but I'll give a rough outline.
At our church there's a part of the service, led from the baptismal font where Pastor Mary gives graduates a blessing -- something along the lines of "Your work and your rest are both in God. Remember the promises made to you in baptism by God; Will you strive to live out the promises you made in your Affirmation of Baptism?" They all say "I will, with God's help"; then Mary turns to the congregation and says, "Your work and your rest are both in God. Remember the promises made to you in baptism by God. Will you, by prayer and action, support these graduates as they go on to college (etc etc)?" The congregation responds that they will, by God's help.
Then we give graduates a quilt that church members have made for them, and tell them that if they are ever feeling lonely or homesick or cold they can wrap themselves up in the quilt from our congregation and remember that we all are supporting and praying for them.
Erik
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It's spring and time to recognize the high school seniors.
...
Then we give graduates a quilt that church members have made for them, and tell them that if they are ever feeling lonely or homesick or cold they can wrap themselves up in the quilt from our congregation and remember that we all are supporting and praying for them.
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If you go with the quilt advice, you better have your quilting group start putting in the overtime. :P
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It's spring and time to recognize the high school seniors.
...
Then we give graduates a quilt that church members have made for them, and tell them that if they are ever feeling lonely or homesick or cold they can wrap themselves up in the quilt from our congregation and remember that we all are supporting and praying for them.
...
If you go with the quilt advice, you better have your quilting group start putting in the overtime. :P
Heh. Well, we don't have a ton of sr. high kids each year, we have a fair number of quilters, and the quilters have all year (or, really, 4 years) to work on the quilts. So it works.
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We do the quilt thing also, here in the upper midwest, where the kids take the quilts with them to school and really use them.
Faith Inkubators has a neat litany that goes along with giving them.
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The wine here at seminary...not sure what the deal is with it, but it comes in shot glasses, like, the size of actual shots of liquor, and I don't know what's in it, but I have to make sure I eat breakfast before chapel because otherwise I will pass out before I get back to my pew.
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Which seminary, Katie? Your description fits the cups at Luther Seminary in St. Paul...I liked the size of those.
Concerning graduation gifts, we don't have quilters, so that's out. The kids got a cross from Thrivent four years prior, so that option is also out. Most graduation gifts are candles or paperweights or pens with Bible verses on them, but I was hoping somebody had a more practical suggestion. Oh well.
The other funny thing about this is that we budget the same amount each year, but the number of graduates varies, so one small group even got nice Bibles, but this year we have five...so they won't be so fortunate.
This whole enterprise has little to do with Jesus and has a lot to do with sentimentality. Call me cynical, but that's my take on all this graduation business. What most graduating seniors need is a map, so that they can find their way back to church (sometimes being a curmudgeon is fun).
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This whole enterprise has little to do with Jesus and has a lot to do with sentimentality. Call me cynical, but that's my take on all this graduation business. What most graduating seniors need is a map, so that they can find their way back to church (sometimes being a curmudgeon is fun).
Oooh.. tying in elsewhere, how about a book of some kind (even a gift bible, etc.) that includes an addressed letter of some sort that will impact their future? (If the kid is 'staying near home', a letter of congratulations and encouragement, if the kid is 'going away to college' how about an introductory letter from the campus ministry pastor and an appointment to meet?)
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Call me cynical, but that's my take on all this graduation business. What most graduating seniors need is a map, so that they can find their way back to church (sometimes being a curmudgeon is fun).
I'm impressed that your youth continue to attend up to graduation. It has been my experience that we rarely see our youth after they are confirmed.
Regards,
Senior
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Here's what been done at parishes in which I have served. The high school graduates come forward, along with the parents (or grandparents, or whoever the student chooses who has been a significant person in their growing up). There is a litany of blessing, in which the parents place their hands on the head of their child and bless this child who is graduating and going into the world (whether college, or job, or military, or not-too-sure-yet). And then the child/young adult stands and turns to face the parents, and placing a hand on them in blessing (usually on the shoulder, since they feel "funny" about the head thing), give a blessing to them, asking the Lord to watch over the ones who spent so many years watching over them. Sentimental? Yes, there usually isn't a dry eye in the place. But also a lived parable of one's blessings returning to one after many years. (Usually the child also hands the parents a carnation.)
I will also say that this ceremony is the culmination of years of such ceremonies, usually (not always) beginning with the baptism of that child in infancy. It's called "Milestone Ministry" and there's some good material for getting this started in a congregation through the Youth and Family Institute. It could become just a gimmick, but isn't intended to be. At each Milestone the child receives something tangible that is a sign of the milestone being recognized. At this last one, it is the child who gives the gift, rather than receiving one. It is part of an attempt to put parents back in the place of being the primary instructors in the faith to the children in their care, and the congregation being assistants to the families in this role.
(And I actually like the quilt idea, and would probably introduce it if this congregation didn't have at least 20 high school graduates every year.)
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How about another miscellaneous question of a deep theological nature. For all my Lutheran life (since I was baptized in 1958), nearly every Lutheran church I attended as a member or visitor (including LCMS) has used Mogen David red wine for the Sacrament.
That rot gut had not passed my lips for years and years, and now I've encountered it twice in the last month. Ugh! I'm surprised any congregation that uses it can manage to have Eucharist every Sunday.
Just to rehash this old discussion -- I partcularly LOVE Mogen DAavid wine... could be because we were weaned on it. EVery Christmas, for about years old on up, we always got our own, litte, bottle of Mogen David Concord GRape -- Love it love it love it -- like manna (wine) from heaven
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How about another miscellaneous question of a deep theological nature. For all my Lutheran life (since I was baptized in 1958), nearly every Lutheran church I attended as a member or visitor (including LCMS) has used Mogen David red wine for the Sacrament.
That rot gut had not passed my lips for years and years, and now I've encountered it twice in the last month. Ugh! I'm surprised any congregation that uses it can manage to have Eucharist every Sunday.
Just to rehash this old discussion -- I partcularly LOVE Mogen DAavid wine... could be because we were weaned on it. EVery Christmas, for about years old on up, we always got our own, litte, bottle of Mogen David Concord GRape -- Love it love it love it -- like manna (wine) from heaven
Are you joking? Please be joking!
Oy. . .
Erik
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Call me cynical, but that's my take on all this graduation business. What most graduating seniors need is a map, so that they can find their way back to church (sometimes being a curmudgeon is fun).
I'm impressed that your youth continue to attend up to graduation. It has been my experience that we rarely see our youth after they are confirmed.
Regards,
Senior
That's our experience too, that's why a map or a GPS would be the perfect gift, so they can find us. Often times we haven't seen the kids on a non-holiday since confirmation sunday. Organizing a senior recognition sunday usually includes a "I know we haven't been to church for a while" statement from the senior or the parents. This isn't true for all the kids, but for many of them.
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How about another miscellaneous question of a deep theological nature. For all my Lutheran life (since I was baptized in 1958), nearly every Lutheran church I attended as a member or visitor (including LCMS) has used Mogen David red wine for the Sacrament.
That rot gut had not passed my lips for years and years, and now I've encountered it twice in the last month. Ugh! I'm surprised any congregation that uses it can manage to have Eucharist every Sunday.
Just to rehash this old discussion -- I partcularly LOVE Mogen DAavid wine... could be because we were weaned on it. EVery Christmas, for about years old on up, we always got our own, litte, bottle of Mogen David Concord GRape -- Love it love it love it -- like manna (wine) from heaven
Are you joking? Please be joking!
Oy. . .
Erik
Well, the Concord Grape is a native North American species of Grape; well technically it was cultivated from the "Fox Grape" which is a native species. For some folks using the native varieties as the wine for communion is somehow important. One's living room might be good place for wine connoisseurship; the altar rail, not so much.
Personally, I prefer Dandelion or Cranberry wine, but ultimately I am partial to "Barley Pop."
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Any Boone's Farm lovers out there? ;D
I have a miscellaneous question, which I was going to post as a new thread but since there is a perfect place for such questions, here it goes.
I have a parishioner who wants to learn more about Lutheran Theology/Doctrine/Practice/Biblical Interpretation and I told him I would prepare a kind of Top Ten reads for beginning introduction to deeper study of Lutheran Doctrine and Luther Study. I have a few in mind, but I am sure there are many that aren't coming to mind. So...What books would you recommend to a lay person wanting deeper Lutheran/Luther study? (Introductory to Moderate level)
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Any Boone's Farm lovers out there? ;D
I have a miscellaneous question, which I was going to post as a new thread but since there is a perfect place for such questions, here it goes.
I have a parishioner who wants to learn more about Lutheran Theology/Doctrine/Practice/Biblical Interpretation and I told him I would prepare a kind of Top Ten reads for beginning introduction to deeper study of Lutheran Doctrine and Luther Study. I have a few in mind, but I am sure there are many that aren't coming to mind. So...What books would you recommend to a lay person wanting deeper Lutheran/Luther study? (Introductory to Moderate level)
Forde: On Being a Theologian of the Cross
Kleinig: Grace upon Grace
Luther: Freedom of a Christian or Christian Liberty, depending what the translator/publisher chose to call it.
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This year on "Honor the Graduates" Sunday we have one high school graduate and 7 college graduates, 5 of whom attended the local university, so there is a reasonable chance they'll show up. Does anybody have any suggestions or resources for acknowledging those getting their B.A.'s?
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Any Boone's Farm lovers out there? ;D
I have a miscellaneous question, which I was going to post as a new thread but since there is a perfect place for such questions, here it goes.
I have a parishioner who wants to learn more about Lutheran Theology/Doctrine/Practice/Biblical Interpretation and I told him I would prepare a kind of Top Ten reads for beginning introduction to deeper study of Lutheran Doctrine and Luther Study. I have a few in mind, but I am sure there are many that aren't coming to mind. So...What books would you recommend to a lay person wanting deeper Lutheran/Luther study? (Introductory to Moderate level)
Forde: On Being a Theologian of the Cross
Kleinig: Grace upon Grace
Luther: Freedom of a Christian or Christian Liberty, depending what the translator/publisher chose to call it.
I'd add Forde's "Where God Meets Man", Martin Marty's little biography of Luther, the collection from Luther's Works titled "Martin Luther's Basic Theological Writings" (which includes "Freedom of A Christian" rec'd. above) , a version of CPH's "Concordia: Reader's Edition" (not the pocket; one of the 'big' versions for all of the background material and articles), Braaten's "Principles of Lutheran Theology".
I've found that I (as a layman myself) haven't gone wrong with any of Forde or Braaten's works: they're both well grounded yet very engaging writers.
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I have a parishioner who wants to learn more about Lutheran Theology/Doctrine/Practice/Biblical Interpretation and I told him I would prepare a kind of Top Ten reads for beginning introduction to deeper study of Lutheran Doctrine and Luther Study. I have a few in mind, but I am sure there are many that aren't coming to mind. So...What books would you recommend to a lay person wanting deeper Lutheran/Luther study? (Introductory to Moderate level)
Forde: On Being a Theologian of the Cross
Kleinig: Grace upon Grace
Luther: Freedom of a Christian or Christian Liberty, depending what the translator/publisher chose to call it.
The Hammer of God -- Bo Giertz
Where God Meets Man -- Gerhard Forde
Luther for Armchair Theologians -- Steve Paulson
The Genius of Luther's Theology -- Kolb & Arands
Lou
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Any Boone's Farm lovers out there? ;D
I have a miscellaneous question, which I was going to post as a new thread but since there is a perfect place for such questions, here it goes.
I have a parishioner who wants to learn more about Lutheran Theology/Doctrine/Practice/Biblical Interpretation and I told him I would prepare a kind of Top Ten reads for beginning introduction to deeper study of Lutheran Doctrine and Luther Study. I have a few in mind, but I am sure there are many that aren't coming to mind. So...What books would you recommend to a lay person wanting deeper Lutheran/Luther study? (Introductory to Moderate level)
Here are a few:
I second the Forde titles and "The Hammer of God", plus -
Here I Stand: A Life of Martin Luther - Roland Bainton (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0452011469?ie=UTF8&tag=arise-20&linkCode=as2&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=0452011469)
God's No and God's Yes: The Proper Distinction Between Law and Gospel - Walther and Pieper (the layman's version of Walther's "Law and Gospel") (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0570035155?ie=UTF8&tag=arise-20&linkCode=as2&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=0570035155)
Luther the Reformer - Kittleson (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0800635973?ie=UTF8&tag=arise-20&linkCode=as2&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=0800635973)
Luther: Man Between God and the Devil - Oberman (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0300103131?ie=UTF8&tag=arise-20&linkCode=as2&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=0300103131)
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Martin Luther: The Christian Between God and Death by Richard Marius, a slightly different take on the same material in Oberman's book.
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An excellent place to start with Luther's own writings is The Large Catechism. It deals with some familiar stuff, but the depth is quite amazing. It was one of the first things I read in my years before seminary when I wanted to explore Lutheran theology.
And encourage reading The Augsburg Confession either in the Concordia: Reader's Edition or "straight" (I think there are some pamphlet size editions of the AC alone if investing in the entire BofC is too much to do at this time).
Another possible guide to getting into the Book of Concord and Lutheran teaching is the book Robert Jensen and Eric Gritsch co-authored about 30 years ago, Lutheranism.
And the collection of "essential" writings of Martin Luther that was done by Dillenberger might also be worth recommending. It isn't as extensive as that done by Timothy Lull, but it is still worthwhile.
I think the recommendations by others, especially the Forde, Braaten and Paulsen books, are also great selections for the list.
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All of Forde's books including Theology is for Proclamation. Also Here we Stand by Herman Sasse, Martin- God's Court Jesterby Eric Gritsch and Let God be Godby Philiip Watson. The latter may be difficult to locate, but I found it to be a complete readable exposition of Luther's theology.
Marie Meyer
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Liturgically speaking, if you don't mind juxtaposing your ordo a fair bit, Gordon Lathrop is a smart man. His books are worth a read.
My advisers in seminary both are published and I think any of their stuff is great-- Sarah Henrich and Diane Jacobson.
And you've brought to mind a fab little book that I recently discovered, called "Crazy Talk"; a wonderful little tome. I need to get one next time I'm at the Luther Sem bookstore. Now THAT is a good gift for grads!
http://www.augsburgfortress.org/store/searchresults.jsp?searchType=all&searchstring=crazy+talk&x=0&y=0&classificationID=-1
Erik
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I really like Lutheran Quarterly Books. The two I have and use often are Harvesting Martin Luther's Reflections and A Formula for Parish Practice. The first covers Luther on various issues (each essay is "Luther on Vocation," "Luther on Baptism..."). The second book is designed for lay study of the Formula of Concord.
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Back to the wine--the use of red wine and leavened bread identified one as Reformed or some would say sacramentarian. tb
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The Lutheran Voices series published by Augsburg Fortress has some titles that I would recommend.
Lutheran Identity: A Classical Understanding is by Frank Senn, and is excellent.
On Being Lutheran by Timothy Lull
Living in the Kingdom: Reflections on Luther's Catechisms by Alvin Rogness and Peter Rogness
Praying for Reform: Luther, Prayer and the Christian Life by William R. Russell
and a good book that has been reprinted in this series and is worth reading by anyone interested in Lutheran thought:
Gravity and Grace by Joseph Sitler.
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Thank you all for your recommendations! Looks like I have some more books to spend Continuing Ed money on! ;D
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Thank you all for your recommendations! Looks like I have some more books to spend Continuing Ed money on! ;D
Just noticed this.
A good, easy to follow and quite profound book is by Gene Veith, The Spirituality of the Cross. Thin, too.
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Graduation Sunday went well yesterday. The church was packed, we had a baptism and two fellow ELCA pastors unexpectedly showed up for worship.
I found the perfect gift for our graduates: "God's Promises for Graduates:Class of 2009", which was marked down to an affordable $9.99 at a local christian bookstore. I wrote a dedication inside with a verse (Romans 12:2 or 12:12) and we were good-to-go.
http://shop.cbn.com/cbn/item.Gods-Promises-for-Graduates-Class-of-2009-Countryman-Jack.9781404187351.htm
But the best part of all was inviting the parents forward for a special prayer. I had never done that before and it worked well. Lots of tears, as Erma had predicted.
Thanks for your input, gang.
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Here I Stood is a collection of essay's/stories of 7 former Lutheran pastor's who departed for Rome. It came in handy for a fmr teacher of mine who I had given a copy. He left the roster of the ELCA a year later and is now teaching Deacons in Formation in an upstste NY Dioecese.
May not be what u r looking 4, but......
pax,
Bob
Boones Farms.......my teenage, i mean my young adult days.......early 70's. Do they stillmake the stuff????
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Boones Farms.......my teenage, i mean my young adult days.......early 70's. Do they stillmake the stuff????
Unfortunately yes, yes they do. :(
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Correction to my post where I made a misstaken reference to a book of essay's by 7 ELCA pastors who crossed the Tiber.
"There We Stood, Here We Stand" was the actual title of what i was referencing. Authored by RJN and timothy Drake. 11 Lutheran's contributed to this work, not all of whom were pastors.
Sorry for the confusion. still a very interesting read and Amazon has used for less than $5.50 per copy. such a deal as we said in williamsburg brooklyn and when shopping on Church Avenue.
Pax,
Bob
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"There We Stood, Here We Stand" was the actual title of what i was referencing. Authored by RJN and timothy Drake. 11 Lutheran's contributed to this work, not all of whom were pastors.
Timothy Drake is the editor of There We Stood, Here We Stand, author of the introduction, and also contributed one of the chapters. Fr. Neuhaus wrote the Foreword. Of the 11 writers, 7 had been Lutheran pastors -- 3 of whom were familiar to those of us reading ALPB publications in the late '80s.
Pax, Steven+
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Any Boone's Farm lovers out there? ;D
I have a miscellaneous question, which I was going to post as a new thread but since there is a perfect place for such questions, here it goes.
I have a parishioner who wants to learn more about Lutheran Theology/Doctrine/Practice/Biblical Interpretation and I told him I would prepare a kind of Top Ten reads for beginning introduction to deeper study of Lutheran Doctrine and Luther Study. I have a few in mind, but I am sure there are many that aren't coming to mind. So...What books would you recommend to a lay person wanting deeper Lutheran/Luther study? (Introductory to Moderate level)
Where God Meets Man by Forde has always been well received by parishioners I have lent it out too. Sometimes I even got it back ;D
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My new favorite is John Kleinig's *Grace Upon Grace: Spirituality for Today* - simply stunning. If I may express it so: Schmemann for Lutherans. It's accessible and yet profound. I've been featuring quotes from it on my blog (see below) under "New Lutheran Quote of the Day." Check it out and see if this is not a book that should be in our people's hands!
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Pastor Wolfe,
An excellent primer, easy to read rather short, classic I would recommend would be "Getting into the Theology of Concord" by Robert Preus. I can send it to you if you want to pay me back. Or buy it here
http://www.amazon.com/Getting-into-theology-Concord-study/dp/B0006CT9X6/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1242951282&sr=1-1 (http://www.amazon.com/Getting-into-theology-Concord-study/dp/B0006CT9X6/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1242951282&sr=1-1)
http://www.amazon.com/Getting-Theology-Concord-Robert-Preus/dp/0570037670/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1242951282&sr=1-2 (http://www.amazon.com/Getting-Theology-Concord-Robert-Preus/dp/0570037670/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1242951282&sr=1-2)
http://shop.cph.org/Product.pasp?txtCatalog=CPHProduct&txtProductID=122702 (http://shop.cph.org/Product.pasp?txtCatalog=CPHProduct&txtProductID=122702)
Of course if you want to get more serious:
Historical Introductions to the Book of Concord by Bente
http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/0570032628?tag=bradsbookshel-20&camp=14573&creative=329585&linkCode=am1&creativeASIN=0570032628&adid=0SW7DAZDCT8H39T5XNEC&
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Mr. Durkin,
How would I know you of all people to mention Bente's Historical Introductions it would be you? Glad to see you haven't changed, brother!
How much is Preus' book? I might be interested...
God's Blessings Brother!
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Did anyone else notice that in Sundays and Seasons prayers for Christ the King Sunday, that Christ was not mentioned as King, nor was any royal imagery used?
Maybe this is a non-issue --there are more important issues before us. But part of me wonders if this is related what the cover-story "The Lutheran" talks about this month, dismantling patriarchy,
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The "festival" is a relatively new institution, growing out of Roman Catholic Germany at a time when nationalism was on the rise and the Pope wanted to assert Christ's rule over that of the state. We could do without it. It was not in the Service Book and Hymnal.
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The "festival" is a relatively new institution, growing out of Roman Catholic Germany at a time when nationalism was on the rise and the Pope wanted to assert Christ's rule over that of the state. We could do without it. It was not in the Service Book and Hymnal.
At least one report I read by Pfatteicher, part of the reason the Roman Church instituted it in 1925 (originally on the last Sunday in October) was to combat the popularity of the Lutheran's Reformation celebration. In 1969 it was moved to the Last Sunday of the Church year. Where it may have originally meant to be divisive, often the prayers of the day are about uniting all believers under the reign of Christ.
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Did anyone else notice that in Sundays and Seasons prayers for Christ the King Sunday, that Christ was not mentioned as King, nor was any royal imagery used?
Maybe this is a non-issue --there are more important issues before us. But part of me wonders if this is related what the cover-story "The Lutheran" talks about this month, dismantling patriarchy,
Well, at least they didn't call him "Queen." ;D
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The "festival" is a relatively new institution, growing out of Roman Catholic Germany at a time when nationalism was on the rise and the Pope wanted to assert Christ's rule over that of the state. We could do without it. It was not in the Service Book and Hymnal.
I, for one, don't wish to do without it. I think it is a fabulous way to conclude the church year, and an almost seamless transition into the theme of Advent. We've taken to having the rite of confirmation on Christ the King, giving opportunity for all kinds of reflections on what it means--for these young people, for all of us--to acknowledge the reign of Christ in our lives and in the world.
Not to mention that it gives a regular liturgical occasion to sing "Crown Him with Many Crowns," the only hymn I know of that includes the word "potentate." 8)
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I second my love of this festival ending the church year. I am not sure our second lesson for the day is used for Christ the King but if it is not it should be: Phiippians 2:5a-11... "That at the name of Jesus every knee should bend..." or from Romans: "...Confess that Jesus is Lord." There is something sovereign is there not about God being God?
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For us who celebrate the historic, one-year series, today was Last Sunday, and the Gospel was Matthew 25 - the wise and foolish virgins - and so the hymn of the day, that incomparable King of the Chorales: "Wake! Awake!" For myself, I can't imagine the Church year ending without that Gospel and Nicolai's stunning text and tune. :)
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During the Sunday School hour my wife led a themed teaching Hymn-Sing titled "Hymns fit for a King"; using hymns referring to Christ as King or to the Kingdom of God. We included the Herbert Brokering hymn "Thine the Amen, Thine the Praise."
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Isn't today now called "The Reign of Christ" Sunday in the ELCA?
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Isn't today now called "The Reign of Christ" Sunday in the ELCA?
Only if you want to call it that. The ELCA respects the bound consciences of those who want to call it one thing, and also of those who want to call it something else.
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Isn't today now called "The Reign of Christ" Sunday in the ELCA?
No doubt by some, but not in the ELW and not in Sundays and Seasons.
In my former life among the Methodists, they divided the season after Pentecost into two sections, one called "Pentecost" and one called "Kingdomtide." Not sure where they got that quirky practice.
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Isn't today now called "The Reign of Christ" Sunday in the ELCA?
No doubt by some, but not in the ELW and not in Sundays and Seasons.
In my former life among the Methodists, they divided the season after Pentecost into two sections, one called "Pentecost" and one called "Kingdomtide." Not sure where they got that quirky practice.
It goes back to the Federal Council of Churches, 1937. (FCC was the predecessor body of the NCC.) Both Methodists and Presbyterians split the season of Pentecost in half, focusing on all things "spiritual" in the 1st half and things "charitable" the second. Since the Festival of Christ the King was barely a decade old at that point, its could be an interesting study of both pietistic and social gospel hermeutics with regard to the church year.
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Christ the King seems to me to be a good day to borrow from the Swedish liturgy used in the Augustana Church until it replaced its 1925 Hymnal and Order of Service with the SBH.
After the opening hymn, the congregation sang, "Holy, Holy, Holy is the Lord of Hosts! The whole earth is full of His glory." The pastor then said, "The Lord is in His holy temple; His throne is in heaven. The Lord is nigh unto them that are of an humble and contrite spirit. He heareth the supplications of the penitent and inclineth to their prayers. Let us therefore draw near with boldness unto His throne of grace and confess our sins."
In the confession of sins, the congregation acknowledged that we "are worthy . . . to be cast away from Thy presence if Thou shouldst judge us according to our sins."
There is a place for contemplating both the imminence and the transcendence of God. I think that in modern times, we have neglected the transcendent. Our current order for confession and forgiveness eliminates any sense of the horrors of the judgment that we ought to face, but that Christ faces for us. Instead, Jesus is generally our meek and mild brother.
Perhaps Christ the King Sunday is a good time to rebalance things a bit.
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It is, in a way, a fitting end to the liturgical year, which is the way I usually preach it.
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I'm ambivilent about Christ the King...it has its pros and cons.
But what about the prayers from today? Was it a vast left wing conspiracy? Some beloved Liberals have sought to replace "kingdom" with "kin-dom".
Any of you ELW'ers out there notice any shift in the lyrics to classic king-related hymns?
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The "festival" is a relatively new institution, growing out of Roman Catholic Germany at a time when nationalism was on the rise and the Pope wanted to assert Christ's rule over that of the state. We could do without it. It was not in the Service Book and Hymnal.
I, for one, don't wish to do without it. I think it is a fabulous way to conclude the church year, and an almost seamless transition into the theme of Advent. We've taken to having the rite of confirmation on Christ the King, giving opportunity for all kinds of reflections on what it means--for these young people, for all of us--to acknowledge the reign of Christ in our lives and in the world.
Not to mention that it gives a regular liturgical occasion to sing "Crown Him with Many Crowns," the only hymn I know of that includes the word "potentate." 8)
Adiophora (sp?)
Yes, we can live without it if it is a divisive thing especially. Like Rev. Johnson I agree that it is a fabulous way to end the church year ending up with a reminder that Christ is King having won that final victory. Then we start again with Advent. Very nice. But I can live without it if it were splitting the synod.
Of course at my former little south Minneapolis ELCA congregation they do not celebrate "Christ the King Sunday" anymore, they celebrate "Living Christ Sunday." Given all traditionalists have left, I am sure there was no opposition to that particular change. Maybe some of the rest of you have heard of this "Living Christ Sunday" (formerly known as "Christ the King Sunday." Anyway it may be interesting to all of you to see this particular change.
Grace & Peace
Brian J Bergs
Minneapolis, MN
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I'm ambivilent about Christ the King...it has its pros and cons.
But what about the prayers from today? Was it a vast left wing conspiracy? Some beloved Liberals have sought to replace "kingdom" with "kin-dom".
Any of you ELW'ers out there notice any shift in the lyrics to classic king-related hymns?
I note there are 140 hymns in LBW that include the word "king" or "kingdom"; there are 124 such in ELW.
Of course some of those may not actually count as "classic king-related hymns"--for example, with my search criteria, "Onward Christian Soldiers" might be counted because of the line about "kingdoms wax and wane." So who knows?
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We're using ELW for hymns and today seemed pretty 'king' filled to me. One joy has been using the Te Deum, which ELW has but I know from TLH, during November as the canticle - it worked out excellently as we sang it for Christ the King today. Our choir sang "At the Name of Jesus" arranged by Vaugn Williams, which has this great line in the last verse:
For all wreaths of empire meet upon His brow,
And our hearts confess Him King of glory now.
Just wonderful, but hardly pc!
Josh EM
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I'm ambivilent about Christ the King...it has its pros and cons.
But what about the prayers from today? Was it a vast left wing conspiracy? Some beloved Liberals have sought to replace "kingdom" with "kin-dom".
Any of you ELW'ers out there notice any shift in the lyrics to classic king-related hymns?
I note there are 140 hymns in LBW that include the word "king" or "kingdom"; there are 124 such in ELW.
My search of the ELW lyrics came up with 157 instances of "king" and 43 of "kingdom". Certainly some of those occur more than once in a hymn.
Besides "Crown Him with Many Crowns," we also sang, "O Christ What Can It Mean for Us" where verses 2-4 end with "a diff'rent kind of king" in reference to Jesus.
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I have a copy of the Concordance to Hymn Texts to the LBW - between King, Kingdom, Kingdoms, Kingly, Kings, and Kingships there are 240 instances in the LBW (approximately - it's tough counting the lines at about 6pt type :P ).
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We celebrated Patriarchy Sunday. As usual.
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I have a copy of the Concordance to Hymn Texts to the LBW - between King, Kingdom, Kingdoms, Kingly, Kings, and Kingships there are 240 instances in the LBW (approximately - it's tough counting the lines at about 6pt type :P ).
Using the pdf file of ELW lyrics and a search function, I found 215 occurrences of those six words.
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IMO the prior pre Christ the King naming packed more punch and the old ULCA among others Propers were appropriate especially so for those of us who are Northern Hemisphere people.
briefly:
1. The Alpha and the Omega. in some traditions parishes read off the names of parishioners who died in the last Church year. Parishioners who moved from 'geographical' parishes without letters of transfer or hadn't come to Communion in the last year.
2. It marks the beginning of winter
3. For those who lived without central heating, electric light, fresh food vitamins and antibiotics 'winter' was the season of pneumonia and death for lots of people. It might even be good to ask today "have you ever lived without electric light, antibiotics, central heating, fresh food vitamins? What was it like? Have you ever lived with an old person in the above conditions what was it like for them?
4. It thus is good to remind people(especially those who feared winter) of the question, or let them think about the question "If you were to die tomorrow or over this winter would you go to heaven or to hell? and also to provide the answer that it is Christ who saves us out of love, by his death and resurrection, through faith.
5. It would allow us to compare The Last Sunday after Trinity with the end of the Jewish liturgical year and Simchat Torah when pious Jews would dance with the Torah scrolls and maybe even sing gypsy love songs to them 'as the symbolical center of their faith'.
Ask ourselves do we/ would we dance with our Bibles? or if not what would we dance with as 'the symbolic center of our faith'?
6. It allowed Bach to write that 'hot-dog' wonderful Cantata BWV 140 'Wachet Auf' for the 27th Sunday after Trinity Nov 25th 1731. With those centerpiece duet arias "Wenn kommst du, mein Heil"...."Mein freund ist mein, und ich bin sein" . Check it out people.
So I, submit we as Lutherans lost more than we gained when the LBW adopted "Christ the King Sunday"
Blessings
James in Japan