Author Topic: December Forum Letter  (Read 890 times)

mariemeyer

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December Forum Letter
« on: December 01, 2020, 11:44:22 AM »
At the suggestion of the December Forum Letter Omnium gathering I watched the interview with Robert P. Jones (https://tinyurl.com/y4over8sr. I also appreciated that the comments and perspective of Concordia Bronxville Professor Dr. Kathryn Galchutt were included the issue.

Hopefully the interview with Robert Jones and Dr. Galchutt's perspective, based on her research, will call attention to the need to openly address the racism that continues to exist in our country.  I support her conclusion that it is possible to have concern for race relations in the church, including the LCMS, and society without necessarily subscribing to a Marxist world view.

As I watched the interview husband Bill was leading a circuit discussion of the CTCR report on Racism.  I am certain we will have an interesting discussion at lunch regarding how CTCR report was received by fellow LCMS pastors. Was there any expressed need to recognize that personal and social racism exists in our country?

My question,  "When and how are Christians in our day responsible to speak the truth regarding racism in the manner that the late LCMS pastor, the Rev. Andrew Schultze did  in his day?" 

Marie Meyer   

peter_speckhard

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Re: December Forum Letter
« Reply #1 on: December 01, 2020, 11:53:10 AM »
I don't think anyone doubts that racism exists in our country. The question is whether race provides a suitable interpretive lens through which to view our country.

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: December Forum Letter
« Reply #2 on: December 01, 2020, 12:26:31 PM »
I don't think anyone doubts that racism exists in our country. The question is whether race provides a suitable interpretive lens through which to view our country.


The answer is, "Yes, it is a suitable interpretive lens through which to view our country." It is not the only suitable lens. We cannot separate the ways we treated the Native Peoples, nor the African slaves, nor the Japanese Americans, and even German-Americans during from who we were and are as a country.


Without that lens, we can fall victim to George Santayana's quote from 1905: ""Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."
« Last Edit: December 01, 2020, 12:29:31 PM by Brian Stoffregen »
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Dan Fienen

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Re: December Forum Letter
« Reply #3 on: December 01, 2020, 01:05:57 PM »
Racism is one aspect of the American experience.  So is the way that Native Americans were treated, Japanese Americans, German Americans and the like. The mistake would be to treat racism as the only aspect of,the American experience worth looking at. Those who would treat racism as the only appropriate perspective from which to view America are as wrong as those who would discount racism as no longer significant. The old gingoistic perspective that Americans are the good guys who do no wrong, is certainly incomplete. But the current iconoclastic move to view all of American history and the American experience as simply an expression of racism is just as short sighted.
Pr. Daniel Fienen
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Re: December Forum Letter
« Reply #4 on: December 01, 2020, 01:24:44 PM »
A good book I’m currently in the middle of on this: Caste. I was literally horrified by what I discovered in it. It’s so helpful, because by shifting the discussion from “race” to “caste” she’s able to draw numerous helpful parallels with the history of India AND with the horrors of the Third Reich. Anyway, it will irritate many of you (I know it did me) at the beginning with what sound like nothing but Marxist assumptions about everything being about power, but as it unfolds the weight of it just really sinks in.
William Weedon, Assistant Pastor
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mariemeyer

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Re: December Forum Letter
« Reply #5 on: December 01, 2020, 02:21:49 PM »
Racism is one aspect of the American experience.  So is the way that Native Americans were treated, Japanese Americans, German Americans and the like. The mistake would be to treat racism as the only aspect of,the American experience worth looking at. Those who would treat racism as the only appropriate perspective from which to view America are as wrong as those who would discount racism as no longer significant. The old gingoistic perspective that Americans are the good guys who do no wrong, is certainly incomplete. But the current iconoclastic move to view all of American history and the American experience as simply an expression of racism is just as short sighted.

Listening to the Robert Jones interview places the discussion on racism in the context of how the Native Americans were treated.  BTW, who here is viewing all of American history and the American experience as simply an expression of racism?

Marie Meyer

Richard Johnson

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Re: December Forum Letter
« Reply #6 on: December 01, 2020, 02:42:53 PM »
A good book I’m currently in the middle of on this: Caste. I was literally horrified by what I discovered in it. It’s so helpful, because by shifting the discussion from “race” to “caste” she’s able to draw numerous helpful parallels with the history of India AND with the horrors of the Third Reich. Anyway, it will irritate many of you (I know it did me) at the beginning with what sound like nothing but Marxist assumptions about everything being about power, but as it unfolds the weight of it just really sinks in.

I just read that as well, and found it very helpful, especially the shift to "caste." Lots of new insights. I'm proud of you for sticking with it, in spite of the early irritation.
The Rev. Richard O. Johnson, STS

Rev Geminn

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Re: December Forum Letter
« Reply #7 on: December 01, 2020, 03:15:23 PM »
At the suggestion of the December Forum Letter Omnium gathering I watched the interview with Robert P. Jones (https://tinyurl.com/y4over8sr. I also appreciated that the comments and perspective of Concordia Bronxville Professor Dr. Kathryn Galchutt were included the issue.

Hopefully the interview with Robert Jones and Dr. Galchutt's perspective, based on her research, will call attention to the need to openly address the racism that continues to exist in our country.  I support her conclusion that it is possible to have concern for race relations in the church, including the LCMS, and society without necessarily subscribing to a Marxist world view.

As I watched the interview husband Bill was leading a circuit discussion of the CTCR report on Racism.  I am certain we will have an interesting discussion at lunch regarding how CTCR report was received by fellow LCMS pastors. Was there any expressed need to recognize that personal and social racism exists in our country?

My question,  "When and how are Christians in our day responsible to speak the truth regarding racism in the manner that the late LCMS pastor, the Rev. Andrew Schultze did  in his day?" 

Marie Meyer

I certainly trust Dr. Galchutt's take on this issue.  I took many of her classes at Bronxville as a history major.

For me the answer to this question revolves around methodology. Depending upon the research methodology used one will arrive at different conclusions. That's the key issue around this topic right now, imo. Right now the methodology is biased towards critical theory which is one particular way to approach the issue, but it is not the only way. 

Peace,
Scott+

Dan Fienen

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Re: December Forum Letter
« Reply #8 on: December 01, 2020, 03:51:13 PM »
Racism is one aspect of the American experience.  So is the way that Native Americans were treated, Japanese Americans, German Americans and the like. The mistake would be to treat racism as the only aspect of,the American experience worth looking at. Those who would treat racism as the only appropriate perspective from which to view America are as wrong as those who would discount racism as no longer significant. The old gingoistic perspective that Americans are the good guys who do no wrong, is certainly incomplete. But the current iconoclastic move to view all of American history and the American experience as simply an expression of racism is just as short sighted.

Listening to the Robert Jones interview places the discussion on racism in the context of how the Native Americans were treated.  BTW, who here is viewing all of American history and the American experience as simply an expression of racism?

Marie Meyer
I'm not saying that anyone here is viewing all of American history and experience as an expression of racism, although the insistence that everyone acknowledge the existence and dominance of systemic racism comes close. However in the general cultural scene in which Americans live that insistence on racism being the defining characteristic of America is at least suggested. The 1619 Project championed by the New York Times Magazine appears to be an attempt to redefine all of American history as being about race. The iconoclasm that started with tearing down monuments to southern Civil War generals and has spread to defacing monuments to any every American historical figure include George Washington and Abraham Lincoln also picks up on this theme. Similarly the insistence of some that to be white is to be racist. For our society to go from ignoring racism and the effects of racism as problem solved and finished to obsessing about race and letting racism be the dominate focus merely exchanges one voice dominating the conversation for another. Neither come close to capturing a well rounded picture of America.
Pr. Daniel Fienen
LCMS

Birkholz

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Re: December Forum Letter
« Reply #9 on: December 01, 2020, 03:59:06 PM »
At the suggestion of the December Forum Letter Omnium gathering I watched the interview with Robert P. Jones (https://tinyurl.com/y4over8sr. I also appreciated that the comments and perspective of Concordia Bronxville Professor Dr. Kathryn Galchutt were included the issue.

Hopefully the interview with Robert Jones and Dr. Galchutt's perspective, based on her research, will call attention to the need to openly address the racism that continues to exist in our country.  I support her conclusion that it is possible to have concern for race relations in the church, including the LCMS, and society without necessarily subscribing to a Marxist world view.

As I watched the interview husband Bill was leading a circuit discussion of the CTCR report on Racism.  I am certain we will have an interesting discussion at lunch regarding how CTCR report was received by fellow LCMS pastors. Was there any expressed need to recognize that personal and social racism exists in our country?

My question,  "When and how are Christians in our day responsible to speak the truth regarding racism in the manner that the late LCMS pastor, the Rev. Andrew Schultze did  in his day?" 

Marie Meyer

The link provided above does not work.  A google search found several interviews with Robert P. Jones.  Is this the one being referenced?

https://youtu.be/Aj9SVES-6Gc
Pastor Mark Birkholz
Faith Evangelical Lutheran Church
Oak Lawn, IL
www.faithoaklawn.org

Mark Brown

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Re: December Forum Letter
« Reply #10 on: December 01, 2020, 04:00:24 PM »
A good book I’m currently in the middle of on this: Caste. I was literally horrified by what I discovered in it. It’s so helpful, because by shifting the discussion from “race” to “caste” she’s able to draw numerous helpful parallels with the history of India AND with the horrors of the Third Reich. Anyway, it will irritate many of you (I know it did me) at the beginning with what sound like nothing but Marxist assumptions about everything being about power, but as it unfolds the weight of it just really sinks in.

I just read that as well, and found it very helpful, especially the shift to "caste." Lots of new insights. I'm proud of you for sticking with it, in spite of the early irritation.

Caste or simply class is a much better frame.  It is why things like Tom Hanks on Black Jeopardy is funny. https://youtu.be/O7VaXlMvAvk

It is also why anything that is addressed at only race is dangerously simplistic.  But of course we've got a Brahmin class that either doesn't know enough about their own country and its history to get that, or worse, they think they are smart enough to use it to continue to divide the Vaishyas and Shudras reaping the whirlwind.


mariemeyer

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Re: December Forum Letter
« Reply #11 on: December 01, 2020, 04:21:55 PM »
At the suggestion of the December Forum Letter Omnium gathering I watched the interview with Robert P. Jones (https://tinyurl.com/y4over8sr. I also appreciated that the comments and perspective of Concordia Bronxville Professor Dr. Kathryn Galchutt were included the issue.

Hopefully the interview with Robert Jones and Dr. Galchutt's perspective, based on her research, will call attention to the need to openly address the racism that continues to exist in our country.  I support her conclusion that it is possible to have concern for race relations in the church, including the LCMS, and society without necessarily subscribing to a Marxist world view.

As I watched the interview husband Bill was leading a circuit discussion of the CTCR report on Racism.  I am certain we will have an interesting discussion at lunch regarding how CTCR report was received by fellow LCMS pastors. Was there any expressed need to recognize that personal and social racism exists in our country?

My question,  "When and how are Christians in our day responsible to speak the truth regarding racism in the manner that the late LCMS pastor, the Rev. Andrew Schultze did  in his day?" 

Marie Meyer

The link provided above does not work.  A google search found several interviews with Robert P. Jones.  Is this the one being referenced?

https://youtu.be/Aj9SVES-6Gc


Listed on the December Forum Letter 

https://tinyurl.com/y4ove8sr

Marie Meyer

Rev Geminn

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Re: December Forum Letter
« Reply #12 on: December 01, 2020, 05:02:17 PM »
A good book I’m currently in the middle of on this: Caste. I was literally horrified by what I discovered in it. It’s so helpful, because by shifting the discussion from “race” to “caste” she’s able to draw numerous helpful parallels with the history of India AND with the horrors of the Third Reich. Anyway, it will irritate many of you (I know it did me) at the beginning with what sound like nothing but Marxist assumptions about everything being about power, but as it unfolds the weight of it just really sinks in.

I just read that as well, and found it very helpful, especially the shift to "caste." Lots of new insights. I'm proud of you for sticking with it, in spite of the early irritation.

Caste or simply class is a much better frame.  It is why things like Tom Hanks on Black Jeopardy is funny. https://youtu.be/O7VaXlMvAvk

It is also why anything that is addressed at only race is dangerously simplistic.  But of course we've got a Brahmin class that either doesn't know enough about their own country and its history to get that, or worse, they think they are smart enough to use it to continue to divide the Vaishyas and Shudras reaping the whirlwind.

I think this simplicity is best represented by Nike’s endorsement of Colin Kaepernick.  A multinational corporation with a poor record of human rights abuses in the third world paying him millions of dollars for an ad campaign that purports to be about justice.  Certainly, this makes sense if seen in purely American racial categories, but that’s all.  This would also explain why multinational corporations were eager to brand themselves in such a manner, to latch on to the BLM movement and other social justice causes.  Start focusing on class, on economic injustice and, I would venture a confident guess that such companies would have none of it because that would potentially impact their bottom line.  Hence, Amazon can support BLM while at the same time crushing efforts at unionization.  In a globalized economy anything can be commodified for the sake of profit.  This was one of Marx’s solid insights concerning late-stage capitalism. 

It should be noted that prominent critical theorists like DiAngelo and Kendi make it a point to speak against efforts to highlight the problems of class in relation to discussions of race.  In one way, this is significantly disingenuous considering what they make in speaking fees and who they generally profit off of which is ultimately the corporate world. They have a vested interest in keeping attention away from what some would argue really matters.  That is the growing gap between wages and cost of living since the 1970s, the gutting of the middle class, as well as the rise of the surveillance state.   Notice the legacy media rarely, if ever, engages in such topics or issues.  Instead they make mountains out of mole hills with race being arguably one such issue.  Even though it can be strongly argued (by prominent black scholars like John McWhorter) that America is actually the least racist it has ever been and that critical race theory actually reveals this without trying to do so.  This isn't to say that race isn't an issue at present, but it may not be in the ways assumed.

Peace,
Scott+
« Last Edit: December 01, 2020, 05:04:15 PM by Rev Geminn »

Birkholz

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Re: December Forum Letter
« Reply #13 on: December 01, 2020, 07:37:58 PM »
At the suggestion of the December Forum Letter Omnium gathering I watched the interview with Robert P. Jones (https://tinyurl.com/y4over8sr. I also appreciated that the comments and perspective of Concordia Bronxville Professor Dr. Kathryn Galchutt were included the issue.

Hopefully the interview with Robert Jones and Dr. Galchutt's perspective, based on her research, will call attention to the need to openly address the racism that continues to exist in our country.  I support her conclusion that it is possible to have concern for race relations in the church, including the LCMS, and society without necessarily subscribing to a Marxist world view.

As I watched the interview husband Bill was leading a circuit discussion of the CTCR report on Racism.  I am certain we will have an interesting discussion at lunch regarding how CTCR report was received by fellow LCMS pastors. Was there any expressed need to recognize that personal and social racism exists in our country?

My question,  "When and how are Christians in our day responsible to speak the truth regarding racism in the manner that the late LCMS pastor, the Rev. Andrew Schultze did  in his day?" 

Marie Meyer

The link provided above does not work.  A google search found several interviews with Robert P. Jones.  Is this the one being referenced?

https://youtu.be/Aj9SVES-6Gc


Listed on the December Forum Letter 

https://tinyurl.com/y4ove8sr

Marie Meyer

Thank you.  The link you provided originally has a typo- an extra "r" after the "e".
Pastor Mark Birkholz
Faith Evangelical Lutheran Church
Oak Lawn, IL
www.faithoaklawn.org