Author Topic: Nuclear Family  (Read 4954 times)

Weedon

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Re: Nuclear Family
« Reply #45 on: September 24, 2020, 11:23:50 AM »
Don,

How far have things changed? Well, just consider the prayers that closed out the liturgy of marriage in the Service Book and Hymnal:

Almighty and most merciful God, who hast now united this Man and this Woman (sic!) in the holy estate of Matrimony: Grant them grace to live therein according to thy holy Word; strengthen them in constant fidelity and true affection toward each other; sustain and defend them amidst all trials and temptations; and help them so to pass through this world in faith toward thee, in communion with thy holy Church, and in loving service one of the other, that they may enjoy forever thy heavenly benediction; through Jesus Christ, thy Son, our Lord, who liveth and reigneth with thee and the Holy Ghost, one God, world without end. Amen.

O Almighty God, Creator of mankind, who art the well-spring of life: Bestow upon these thy servants, if it be thy will, the gift and heritage of children; and grant that they may see their children brought up in thy faith and fear, to the honor and glory of thy Name; through Jesus Christ, our Lord. Amen.

O God, who art our dwelling-place in all generations: Look with favor upon the homes of our land; enfold husbands and wives, parents and children, in the bonds of thy pure love; and so bless our homes, that they may be a shelter for the defenseless, a bulwark for the tempted, a resting-place for the weary, and a foretaste of our eternal home in thee; through Jesus Christ, our Lord. Amen.

So the predecessor bodies of the ELCA (except for the remnant from Missouri) USED to pray at weddings. Think through all that those prayers assume and imply. What’s ironic? You’ll recognize that the first and last prayers now are in the LCMS rite of holy matrimony. Sadly, the second one was ignored.
William Weedon, Assistant Pastor
St. Paul Lutheran Church, Hamel IL
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Charles Austin

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Re: Nuclear Family
« Reply #46 on: September 24, 2020, 11:30:35 AM »
So is it wrong for a married couple, for personal or physical or psychological or other reasons to decide not to have children? Would such a marriage be "Godly" (or godly or God-pleasing or OK with the big guy upstairs)?
Is there something inherently wrong with a marriage that is not to include children?
BTW a woman of my close acquaintance speculates that unless we learn to control population, keep our air and water clean, and preserve the environment God has given into our care; it is quite like that in future decades abortion will not only be legal, it may be required. I tend to think that the first step will be required sterilization or tax breaks for those agreeing not to have children.
This will, of course, be forced in countries able to do so; and probably enacted into law in other places.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2020, 11:32:12 AM by Charles Austin »
Retired ELCA pastor. Iowa born. Now in Minnesota. Missing NY/NJ and trips to Europe. But the dining room at our "ranch" is now open and some activities - with virus restrictions - are returning. For which, thanks.

Dan Fienen

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Re: Nuclear Family
« Reply #47 on: September 24, 2020, 12:05:53 PM »
Pr. Austin, surely you are not suggesting that the solution that Communist China arrived at for their population situation was a justifiable one, are you? The United States population is actually quite stable with a 0.59% increase from 2019 to 2020, the increase actually more a matter of immigration than births. The current fertility rate is 1.779 births per woman. A fertility rate of 2.1 births per woman is generally considered necessary to maintain a population without immigration. Are you still living back in the 1950s or 60s to be so fearful of the population bomb.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2020, 12:07:50 PM by Dan Fienen »
Pr. Daniel Fienen
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Dave Likeness

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Re: Nuclear Family
« Reply #48 on: September 24, 2020, 01:15:48 PM »
What is the Biblical Purpose of Marriage:

1. Companionship......In Genesis 2:18, God said that it was not good for the man
to live alone, so He would make a  suitable companion for him.

2. To have Children....In Genesis 1:28, God gave His blessing upon man & woman
and told them to be fruitful and multiply.

3. To avoid Immorality....In 1 Corinthians 7:2, God's Word tells us that due to the
temptation to immorality, each man should have his own wife, and each woman
her own husband.

Charles Austin

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Re: Nuclear Family
« Reply #49 on: September 24, 2020, 01:24:12 PM »
Pastor Fienen writes (always reading t-o-o literally):
Pr. Austin, surely you are not suggesting that the solution that Communist China arrived at for their population situation was a justifiable one, are you? The United States population is actually quite stable with a 0.59% increase from 2019 to 2020, the increase actually more a matter of immigration than births.
I comment:
No, I am not and I am not advocating or suggesting anything. I simply raise the spectre - and everyone should consider this - that if the world's population gets further out of control, if our planet's resources are not protected, governments with absolutely no concern for personal freedom or "choice" may take draconian measures. Even in our beloved and (as yet) free land, the situation in 30 or 40 years might be different and whatever "moralities" or "freedoms" we value today might be in danger.

Pastor Fienen:
The current fertility rate is 1.779 births per woman. A fertility rate of 2.1 births per woman is generally considered necessary to maintain a population without immigration. Are you still living back in the 1950s or 60s to be so fearful of the population bomb.
Me:
No, I'm speculating about living in the 2050s with polluted air, undrinkable water, land ruined by misuse, oceans clogged with plastic, forests destroyed by crud in the air and soil made unfertile by chemicals. I'm thinking about living in the 2050s where civil peace may be disrupted by riots of starving people and despoiled countries taking drastic means to attempt to save themselves.
We need to be working on this globally and not telling the United Nations that we'll do everything our way, because we don't need or want your help with anything and we don't like sitting down to discuss cooperation with you.
Retired ELCA pastor. Iowa born. Now in Minnesota. Missing NY/NJ and trips to Europe. But the dining room at our "ranch" is now open and some activities - with virus restrictions - are returning. For which, thanks.

Charles Austin

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Re: Nuclear Family
« Reply #50 on: September 24, 2020, 01:28:45 PM »
Dave Likeness writes:
1. Companionship......In Genesis 2:18, God said that it was not good for the man
to live alone, so He would make a  suitable companion for him.
I muse:
So does that totally rule out dogs, cats, ferrets, or other animal companions?

Dave Likeness:
2. To have Children....In Genesis 1:28, God gave His blessing upon man & woman
and told them to be fruitful and multiply.
Me:
I'd say: OK, God, we've done that; and maybe we should back off the multiplying for a while.

Dave Likeness:
3. To avoid Immorality....In 1 Corinthians 7:2, God's Word tells us that due to the
temptation to immorality, each man should have his own wife, and each woman
her own husband.
Me:
Sorry, Lord, that just doesn't solve the problem of "temptation to immorality" and - if you ask almost any woman - "each man" doesn't deserve a wife or would not be good for the woman who has him as a husband.  Surely You don't mean that every man should have a wife, and every woman should have a husband?
Retired ELCA pastor. Iowa born. Now in Minnesota. Missing NY/NJ and trips to Europe. But the dining room at our "ranch" is now open and some activities - with virus restrictions - are returning. For which, thanks.

Weedon

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Re: Nuclear Family
« Reply #51 on: September 24, 2020, 01:29:13 PM »
I missed that Scripture where God rescinded “Be fruitful and multiply” and where He clarified that He didn’t actually mean that the man was blessed who had his “quiver full” of children. Written from my living room where, at the moment, six grandchildren from my eldest are gathered... ranging from 8 to six months.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2020, 01:32:10 PM by Weedon »
William Weedon, Assistant Pastor
St. Paul Lutheran Church, Hamel IL
Catechist on LPR Podcast: The Word of the Lord Endures Forever
A Daily, Verse-by-Verse Bible Study with the Church, Past and Present
www.thewordendures.org

+Verbum Domini Manet in Aeternum

D. Engebretson

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Re: Nuclear Family
« Reply #52 on: September 24, 2020, 01:31:50 PM »
Children, scripture reminds us, are a gift from God, and raising them a sacred privilege. Special honor is accorded parents as God's representatives. In our culture today children are too often seen as a burden.  Or often career and wealth are placed above children in importance.  I also think that compared to other generations we have a very different view of what is required to raise children adequately. So people 'put off' having children until they can afford them. But what is required to 'afford' being a parent?  A child with loving parents that provides the basics necessities of food, clothing and shelter will grow up just as well as those raised in much greater luxury and wealth.

On the subject of the state of our planet and the resources available now and in the future, we tend only to look at the worse case projections of climate, and forget about the ongoing dynamics of corrupt and violent governments (especially in Third World countries) that cause unnatural and unnecessary shortages of food and water simply because of theft and war-induced turmoil. 
Pastor Don Engebretson
St. Peter Lutheran Church of Polar (Antigo) WI

peter_speckhard

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Re: Nuclear Family
« Reply #53 on: September 24, 2020, 01:38:41 PM »
I simply raise the spectre - and everyone should consider this - that if the world's population gets further out of control...
Further out of whose control?

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Nuclear Family
« Reply #54 on: September 24, 2020, 01:41:13 PM »
If Pastor Stoffregen is representative of the approach to biblical interpretation and theology of the ELCA, I understand why we struggle here so often to really discuss points as simple as marriage. We are quite a ways apart even on what used to be the fundamentals.


I ask you to show me examples of "nuclear families" in the Bible. I can think of Adam and Eve and their children; but there was no one else. There is Noah and his family, but they became the patriarchs of all people on earth. The Jewish Patriarchal families included slaves and concubines.


While we have the names of Jesus' parents, he is more often defined as "Jesus of Nazareth." His identity was connected more with Nazareth than with his parents. We don't know Paul's parent's names, but we know he was from Tarsus; and from the tribe of Benjamin. One interpretation (and some variant readings in John) indicate that the betrayer was Judas from Kerioth. (John also tells us that his father was Simon who was also from Kerioth, John 6:71; 13:2, 26.)


A Navajo friend confused me when she talked about her grandchildren. I know her only child who has no children. In their culture, all the nieces and nephews are also called "grandchildren." "Family" is not primarily the nuclear mom, dad, kids, and pet(s); but the extended relations. I believe that the culture in the biblical times was much closer to that of American Natives (and Africans) than our American individualism.
Brian Stoffregen
“In theory, theory and practice are the same. In practice, they are not.” ― Albert Einstein

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Nuclear Family
« Reply #55 on: September 24, 2020, 01:45:48 PM »
So you think the first human male and the first human female were unrelated and therefore their mating wasn't "incest," which was the point that kicked off this little digression?


Yup. The environmental and/or genetic changes that produced homo sapiens from the earlier hominids would like happen in more than one location.
Brian Stoffregen
“In theory, theory and practice are the same. In practice, they are not.” ― Albert Einstein

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Nuclear Family
« Reply #56 on: September 24, 2020, 01:50:51 PM »
Nothing wrong with the nuclear family. May there be many and may there be many more. But may we also understand that it is not the only kind of family.
It is not the only kind of household. It is by God's design the only kind of family. But He's glad you find nothing wrong with it.


What evidence do you provide that God designed only one kind of family - and that it is the nuclear family? I am certain that the biblical culture like that of Africans and Native Americans and others, saw "family" as being the extended family. The nuclear family had no meaning outside of the tribe and community where they lived. "Jesus of Nazareth" was much more important than Jesus, son of Joseph. We know that Paul came from Tarsus, but we don't know his parent's names.
Brian Stoffregen
“In theory, theory and practice are the same. In practice, they are not.” ― Albert Einstein

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Nuclear Family
« Reply #57 on: September 24, 2020, 01:54:37 PM »
But it is not the only “godly” family.

It is extremely telling that a thread discussing a Biblical concept of a nuclear family is being derailed and reduced to a discussion of the non biblical “godly” family.

A “Godly” family is far different than a “godly” family. A “godly” family is completely devoid of the Biblical concepts that God wishes and desires for all families.

The desire to downgrade this thread from a discussion of a “Godly” Biblical family to a ‘godly’ family indicates that Rev Austin’s belief and confession are in line with the concerns expressed in the following ...
If Pastor Stoffregen is representative of the approach to biblical interpretation and theology of the ELCA, I understand why we struggle here so often to really discuss points as simple as marriage. We are quite a ways apart even on what used to be the fundamentals.

Again, please resist thread drift and begin a “godly” family discussion thread. Thank you.


I think that Jesus is quite clear in describing a "godly" family: "Whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother” (Matthew 12:50; Mark 3:35).
Brian Stoffregen
“In theory, theory and practice are the same. In practice, they are not.” ― Albert Einstein

peter_speckhard

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Re: Nuclear Family
« Reply #58 on: September 24, 2020, 01:55:00 PM »
Nothing wrong with the nuclear family. May there be many and may there be many more. But may we also understand that it is not the only kind of family.
It is not the only kind of household. It is by God's design the only kind of family. But He's glad you find nothing wrong with it.


What evidence do you provide that God designed only one kind of family - and that it is the nuclear family? I am certain that the biblical culture like that of Africans and Native Americans and others, saw "family" as being the extended family. The nuclear family had no meaning outside of the tribe and community where they lived. "Jesus of Nazareth" was much more important than Jesus, son of Joseph. We know that Paul came from Tarsus, but we don't know his parent's names.
The facts of life and the codification of father, mother, husband and wife in the commandments. People can live together in all kinds of ways, and treat each other in all kinds of ways, but the nucleus of the matter is a man and a woman coming together and producing a baby.

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Nuclear Family
« Reply #59 on: September 24, 2020, 01:57:31 PM »
What is the Biblical Purpose of Marriage:

1. Companionship......In Genesis 2:18, God said that it was not good for the man
to live alone, so He would make a  suitable companion for him.

2. To have Children....In Genesis 1:28, God gave His blessing upon man & woman
and told them to be fruitful and multiply.

3. To avoid Immorality....In 1 Corinthians 7:2, God's Word tells us that due to the
temptation to immorality, each man should have his own wife, and each woman
her own husband.


Another reason that the infamous first draft included was 4. Mutual pleasure, based on the Song of Songs.

Brian Stoffregen
“In theory, theory and practice are the same. In practice, they are not.” ― Albert Einstein