Author Topic: The Political Divide  (Read 2879 times)

Brian Stoffregen

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 41904
  • ἐγὼ δὲ λέγω ὑμῖν, ἀγαπᾶτε τοὺς ἐχθροὺς ὑμῶν
    • View Profile
The Political Divide
« on: September 18, 2020, 01:46:38 PM »
CBS This Morning had the following segment on "The Political Divide." Groups of people watch the same video and come to quite different interpretation of the facts. How can we come together when we can't agree on what the facts are?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XlAsZUPiwNE
"The church had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

readselerttoo

  • Guest
Re: The Political Divide
« Reply #1 on: September 18, 2020, 02:11:53 PM »
CBS This Morning had the following segment on "The Political Divide." Groups of people watch the same video and come to quite different interpretation of the facts. How can we come together when we can't agree on what the facts are?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XlAsZUPiwNE

Yes.  Are they the facts or the facts as I see them... and then convey through words?

Brian Stoffregen

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 41904
  • ἐγὼ δὲ λέγω ὑμῖν, ἀγαπᾶτε τοὺς ἐχθροὺς ὑμῶν
    • View Profile
Re: The Political Divide
« Reply #2 on: September 18, 2020, 02:34:54 PM »
CBS This Morning had the following segment on "The Political Divide." Groups of people watch the same video and come to quite different interpretation of the facts. How can we come together when we can't agree on what the facts are?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XlAsZUPiwNE

Yes.  Are they the facts or the facts as I see them... and then convey through words?


I've argued elsewhere that the truth is always filtered through human eyes/thinking. One of the issues the report brings up is that we are quick to see the biases in others, but often deny that we have any biases.
"The church had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Pasgolf

  • ALPB Forum Regular
  • ****
  • Posts: 258
    • View Profile
Mark (retired pastor, golfs the pastures) Renner

Pasgolf

  • ALPB Forum Regular
  • ****
  • Posts: 258
    • View Profile
Re: The Political Divide
« Reply #4 on: September 18, 2020, 03:17:25 PM »
Jonathan Haidt has done some very interesting studies as to how and why this may happen. Check out The Righteous Mind
Mark (retired pastor, golfs the pastures) Renner

Brian Stoffregen

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 41904
  • ἐγὼ δὲ λέγω ὑμῖν, ἀγαπᾶτε τοὺς ἐχθροὺς ὑμῶν
    • View Profile
Re: The Political Divide
« Reply #5 on: September 18, 2020, 06:52:30 PM »
Jonathan Haidt has done some very interesting studies as to how and why this may happen. Check out The Righteous Mind


Agreed. I own it. Bought it in 2012. I've read it. The book is marked up. Interesting discussion about where morality comes from.
"The church had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Brian Stoffregen

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 41904
  • ἐγὼ δὲ λέγω ὑμῖν, ἀγαπᾶτε τοὺς ἐχθροὺς ὑμῶν
    • View Profile
Re: The Political Divide
« Reply #6 on: September 20, 2020, 02:35:40 PM »
An example of this: the news reports that nearly 200,000 people in the U.S. have died from COVID-19. I have friends on Facebook who argue that the number is much, much lower than that. Most of the deaths come from other causes. Other posts argue that the number is likely much higher because we haven't tested everyone who died as to whether or not they had COVID-19. Two radically different "truths," both with pretty good arguments; but neither can be reliably proven.
"The church had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Steven W Bohler

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 3527
    • View Profile
Re: The Political Divide
« Reply #7 on: September 20, 2020, 07:24:59 PM »
An example of this: the news reports that nearly 200,000 people in the U.S. have died from COVID-19. I have friends on Facebook who argue that the number is much, much lower than that. Most of the deaths come from other causes. Other posts argue that the number is likely much higher because we haven't tested everyone who died as to whether or not they had COVID-19. Two radically different "truths," both with pretty good arguments; but neither can be reliably proven.

Dying "with" COVID is a much different thing than dying "from" COVID.  Yet the media uses them interchangeably.

Brian Stoffregen

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 41904
  • ἐγὼ δὲ λέγω ὑμῖν, ἀγαπᾶτε τοὺς ἐχθροὺς ὑμῶν
    • View Profile
Re: The Political Divide
« Reply #8 on: September 20, 2020, 07:45:44 PM »
An example of this: the news reports that nearly 200,000 people in the U.S. have died from COVID-19. I have friends on Facebook who argue that the number is much, much lower than that. Most of the deaths come from other causes. Other posts argue that the number is likely much higher because we haven't tested everyone who died as to whether or not they had COVID-19. Two radically different "truths," both with pretty good arguments; but neither can be reliably proven.

Dying "with" COVID is a much different thing than dying "from" COVID.  Yet the media uses them interchangeably.


It doesn't make much difference if they keep using the same definition. The number of deaths are going up. The number of deaths per week are going down. (Possibly because healthier people are getting COVID-19 and because we have better knowledge about treating it.)
"The church had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

James J Eivan

  • Guest
Re: The Political Divide
« Reply #9 on: September 20, 2020, 07:57:01 PM »
An example of this: the news reports that nearly 200,000 people in the U.S. have died from COVID-19. I have friends on Facebook who argue that the number is much, much lower than that. Most of the deaths come from other causes. Other posts argue that the number is likely much higher because we haven't tested everyone who died as to whether or not they had COVID-19. Two radically different "truths," both with pretty good arguments; but neither can be reliably proven.

Dying "with" COVID is a much different thing than dying "from" COVID.  Yet the media uses them interchangeably.


It doesn't make much difference if they keep using the same definition. The number of deaths are going up. The number of deaths per week are going down. (Possibly because healthier people are getting COVID-19 and because we have better knowledge about treating it.)
If the total number of deaths began to decrease, would you rejoice?

Brian Stoffregen

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 41904
  • ἐγὼ δὲ λέγω ὑμῖν, ἀγαπᾶτε τοὺς ἐχθροὺς ὑμῶν
    • View Profile
Re: The Political Divide
« Reply #10 on: September 20, 2020, 08:05:08 PM »
An example of this: the news reports that nearly 200,000 people in the U.S. have died from COVID-19. I have friends on Facebook who argue that the number is much, much lower than that. Most of the deaths come from other causes. Other posts argue that the number is likely much higher because we haven't tested everyone who died as to whether or not they had COVID-19. Two radically different "truths," both with pretty good arguments; but neither can be reliably proven.

Dying "with" COVID is a much different thing than dying "from" COVID.  Yet the media uses them interchangeably.


It doesn't make much difference if they keep using the same definition. The number of deaths are going up. The number of deaths per week are going down. (Possibly because healthier people are getting COVID-19 and because we have better knowledge about treating it.)
If the total number of deaths began to decrease, would you rejoice?


The total number of deaths will never decrease. It would mean that some of the nearly 200,000 dead would come back to life. The rate of those dying per week has decreased and I rejoice.

"The church had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

SomeoneWrites

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 2596
    • View Profile
Re: The Political Divide
« Reply #11 on: September 20, 2020, 08:09:02 PM »

Dying "with" COVID is a much different thing than dying "from" COVID.  Yet the media uses them interchangeably.

It is appropriate to use them interchangeably.  Like dying from AIDS. 
LCMS raised
LCMS theology major
LCMS sem grad
Atheist

Steven W Bohler

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 3527
    • View Profile
Re: The Political Divide
« Reply #12 on: September 20, 2020, 08:13:37 PM »

Dying "with" COVID is a much different thing than dying "from" COVID.  Yet the media uses them interchangeably.

It is appropriate to use them interchangeably.  Like dying from AIDS.

No, it is not.  When a traffic fatality or heart attack patient or gun-shot victim are listed as COVID deaths simply because they had a positive test (or, in some cases, mere the suspicion of COVID), clearly the cause of death had nothing to do with COVID.

James J Eivan

  • Guest
Re: The Political Divide
« Reply #13 on: September 20, 2020, 08:15:20 PM »
An example of this: the news reports that nearly 200,000 people in the U.S. have died from COVID-19. I have friends on Facebook who argue that the number is much, much lower than that. Most of the deaths come from other causes. Other posts argue that the number is likely much higher because we haven't tested everyone who died as to whether or not they had COVID-19. Two radically different "truths," both with pretty good arguments; but neither can be reliably proven.
Dying "with" COVID is a much different thing than dying "from" COVID.  Yet the media uses them interchangeably.
It doesn't make much difference if they keep using the same definition. The number of deaths are going up. The number of deaths per week are going down. (Possibly because healthier people are getting COVID-19 and because we have better knowledge about treating it.)
If the total number of deaths began to decrease, would you rejoice?
The total number of deaths will never decrease. It would mean that some of the nearly 200,000 dead would come back to life. The rate of those dying per week has decreased and I rejoice.
Likewise, the total number reported cases will never decrease ... I attempted to explain this to a friend .. Im unsure if my friend ever understood that concept.

SomeoneWrites

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 2596
    • View Profile
Re: The Political Divide
« Reply #14 on: September 20, 2020, 08:21:01 PM »

Dying "with" COVID is a much different thing than dying "from" COVID.  Yet the media uses them interchangeably.



It is appropriate to use them interchangeably.  Like dying from AIDS.

No, it is not.  When a traffic fatality or heart attack patient or gun-shot victim are listed as COVID deaths simply because they had a positive test (or, in some cases, mere the suspicion of COVID), clearly the cause of death had nothing to do with COVID.

As in AIDS, still yes.  If those bullets and car accidents would have had a recovery without COVID, then still yes.  If you have some data to share, I invite you to do so.
LCMS raised
LCMS theology major
LCMS sem grad
Atheist