Author Topic: and rare.  (Read 1890 times)

Brian Stoffregen

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and rare.
« on: September 03, 2020, 02:30:18 PM »

Some of the voting discussions have centered on abortion. For some, it seems, that is the single issue or most important issue concerning the candidates they will vote for (or against). I'd like to approach it from another angle.

Bill Clinton used this phrase about abortions: "Safe, legal, and rare."


I suspect that no one is in favor of unsafe abortions.


Many seek making abortions illegal, which some experts say will not happen; and others indicate that greater anti-abortion legislation does not reduce the number of abortions.


This leaves working at making abortions rare. Statistics indicate that they are becoming the rarest they have been since Roe v. Wade was passed in 1973.


The following article as well as some others indicate the two key ways of reducing abortions:
1. Proper sex education
2. Free birth control


https://www.huffpost.com/entry/reducing-abortion-rates-policy_n_589b8ea5e4b09bd304bfd920


The following article adds a third:
3. Tackling the subject of rape culture

https://www.theodysseyonline.com/effective-ways-reduce-abortions


Rather that arguing pro-life vs. pro-choice positions; I think a discussion about ways of making abortions rarer will be more fruitful.


Some additional issues besides those above.


4. How do we help women turn an unwanted pregnancy into a wanted pregnancy? This would include issues such as paid maternity leaves, adequate health care for the mother and child, salaries that are sufficient not just to live on, but also would pay for child care when needed.


"The church had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Mike Gehlhausen

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Re: and rare.
« Reply #1 on: September 03, 2020, 02:44:33 PM »
I agree that even as we work to eliminate a culture in which abortion is legal, we should work to make it as rare as possible.

But even the New York Times acknowledges that the Democratic party has moved past this.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/11/25/us/politics/abortion-laws-2020-democrats.html

I definitely do agree that it is important to support pro-life centers that provide prenatal care for expectant mothers, teach them childcare information, or assist them with giving up for adoption.

Steven W Bohler

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Re: and rare.
« Reply #2 on: September 03, 2020, 03:21:50 PM »
Safe abortions?  Certainly THAT is an oxymoron.  At least half of the people involved die.

James J Eivan

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Re: and rare.
« Reply #3 on: September 03, 2020, 03:25:26 PM »
At least half of the people involved die.
ALL infants aborted die.🤬

Daniel Lee Gard

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Re: and rare.
« Reply #4 on: September 03, 2020, 03:27:14 PM »
Safe abortions?  Certainly THAT is an oxymoron.  At least half of the people involved die.

I wonder what the actual death rate is at an abortuary. Each abortion results in least one unborn human being's death. Two or more if there are twins or triplets. Plus maternal deaths.

The notion of a "safe" abortion is staggering.

Dan Fienen

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Re: and rare.
« Reply #5 on: September 03, 2020, 03:32:45 PM »
Some comments. Roe v. Wade was not passed in 1973, the decision was handed down in 1973. Roe v. Wade was not a piece of legislation that was passed but rather a court decision. That is not an insignificant distinction.


Proper sex education is important, but it needs to be more than just a how to manual a kind of Sexual Activity for Dummies. Sex education to be helpful needs to, in age appropriate ways, discuss the mechanics but it also needs to discuss the personal and social implications of sexual activity. I do not expect that sex education in public schools will promote Christian ethical standards for sexual activity. Christians cannot even agree among themselves as to what that might be. But surely there is enough studies and experience to be able to lay out for children the typical implications of sexual activity, and especially sexual activity at early ages, for emotional and social development, the role of commitment in an intimate relationship, self-esteem issues, and the like.


I've long been a fan of the singer Carol King, consider the song that she wrote with Gerry Goffin, "Will You Love Me Tomorrow." Not a Christian lyric, but one that raises concerns that proper sex education would need to raise. Sex education needs to involve more that passing out birth control with a user's manual and tell the kids to go have fun.


With the free birth control, it should be noted that some forms of birth control seem to be in actuality abortifacients. Switching from a surgical abortion to a chemical one does not remove it from being an abortion.


If we are talking about free birth control, one must ask who pays for it. Coercing people and institutions to pay for birth control against their conscience is a violation of religious freedom.


Brian's third point was addressing abortion by addressing our rape culture. Very few abortions are performed because the conception was because of rape. As a method of reducing abortion, reducing rape would seem to have little effect. There are much more important reasons to address our rape culture. Legal issues have been addressed to both take rape and sexual assault more seriously and protect the victims from being revictimized by the legal system. More needs to be done. Cultural attitudes also need to be addressed. One point that I would point out, is that we all need to be more even handed in taking incidents of sexual assault and accusations thereof more seriously. We have had the spectacle in recent years from both the Right and the Left of accusations of sexual assault being taken very seriously when lodged against those on the other side and playing them down or outright ignoring them when lodged against an ally.


Again, I do not see this as much of an abortion issue as an important societal issue.


This, however, raises another issue that I think deserves more attention than it has received. In raising the issue of the current rape culture, the issue of how we regard women in general and their concerns. What value do we place on women if we allow them to be victimized and show little concern for their trauma and victimization and let their victimizers off easy? The answer is, of course, it betrays a low value placed on women. Undervaluing women, allowing them to be placed in situations where they are simply valued for their use rather than themselves is an age old problem. I would like to think that we have grown beyond that. In many ways we have, but we still have a long way to go.


Similarly, I suggest that a culture that casually accepts abortion as a minor inconvenience in the pursuit of one's goals seriously undervalues human life. It suggests that so long as we can handle matters inconspicuously and the victims are relatively small, defenseless, and faceless, life is disposable. It promotes the idea that ending a nascent human life is no more significant than the procedure that we will undertake, probably next week, to remove my wife's stone filled gall bladder. It's in the way so get rid of it, no big deal. To even suggest that society should disapprove of ending an unborn baby's life except in dire circumstances has become the equivalent of declaring war on women. For a woman to show concern over the fate of an unborn child has become a betrayal of one's own gender, it has become unwomanly.


Laws to forbid abortion may not be effective, but must we promote abortion?


I would also point out, that most anti-abortion groups support ministries to help not only future mothers but actual mothers and their babies?
Pr. Daniel Fienen
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D. Engebretson

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Re: and rare.
« Reply #6 on: September 03, 2020, 04:08:23 PM »

The following article as well as some others indicate the two key ways of reducing abortions:
1. Proper sex education
2. Free birth control


https://www.huffpost.com/entry/reducing-abortion-rates-policy_n_589b8ea5e4b09bd304bfd920


The following article adds a third:
3. Tackling the subject of rape culture

https://www.theodysseyonline.com/effective-ways-reduce-abortions


Rather that arguing pro-life vs. pro-choice positions; I think a discussion about ways of making abortions rarer will be more fruitful.


Some additional issues besides those above.


4. How do we help women turn an unwanted pregnancy into a wanted pregnancy? This would include issues such as paid maternity leaves, adequate health care for the mother and child, salaries that are sufficient not just to live on, but also would pay for child care when needed.

It might be helpful at this point to know the actual identified reasons women seek abortions, statistically speaking. According to one study posted at ResearchGate:
The predominant themes identified as reasons for seeking abortion included financial reasons (40%), timing (36%), partner related reasons (31%), and the need to focus on other children (29%). Most women reported multiple reasons for seeking an abortion crossing over several themes (64%). Using mixed effects multivariate logistic regression analyses, we identified the social and demographic predictors of the predominant themes women gave for seeking an abortion. Study findings demonstrate that the reasons women seek abortion are complex and interrelated, similar to those found in previous studies. While some women stated only one factor that contributed to their desire to terminate their pregnancies, others pointed to a myriad of factors that, cumulatively, resulted in their seeking abortion. As indicated by the differences we observed among women's reasons by individual characteristics, women seek abortion for reasons related to their circumstances, including their socioeconomic status, age, health, parity and marital status.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/247154506_Understanding_why_women_seek_abortions_in_the_US

While reasons vary, and as the study notes are complex, it is hard to see how one can make abortion very rare based on some of the reasons stated.  We are dealing with a culture that by and large now regards unborn life as sub-human and secondary to decisions affecting ones lifestyle and comfort.  Until unborn life is granted the same status as born life women will place other matters first: career, relationships, need for leisure, etc. You can guarantee greater pay, maternity leave, and other incentives, but I believe that in the end if the life in her womb is not accorded primary value, any reason is adequate and acceptable in her eyes to seek an abortion.
« Last Edit: September 03, 2020, 04:10:25 PM by D. Engebretson »
Pastor Don Engebretson
St. Peter Lutheran Church of Polar (Antigo) WI

B Hughes

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Re: and rare.
« Reply #7 on: September 03, 2020, 04:16:14 PM »

Brian's third point was addressing abortion by addressing our rape culture. Very few abortions are performed because the conception was because of rape.



 OTOH, we know Planned Parenthood is complicit in the sex trade of human trafficking as their employees have been caught on tape doing so.  This is the deep, dark side of the abortion industry: ending the pregnancy of young women caught up in the sex trade. Now, some here might argue that without "safe and legal" abortions for sex traffickers the young women would be at even higher risk of death. These are the sorts of slippery slope ethical arguments that demonstrate a complete lack of a moral center.  And we won't get into the revelation that the ELCA's health care plan will pay for them under any circumstances and for any reasons. 

  Since real churches don't kill babies I'm not sure what an ELCA pastor onboard with his denomination's stance can add to the discussion.

 https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2017/jan/17/planned-parenthood-failed-take-sex-trafficking-ser/


Mike Gehlhausen

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Re: and rare.
« Reply #8 on: September 03, 2020, 05:39:49 PM »
Proper sex education is important, but it needs to be more than just a how to manual a kind of Sexual Activity for Dummies. Sex education to be helpful needs to, in age appropriate ways, discuss the mechanics but it also needs to discuss the personal and social implications of sexual activity. I do not expect that sex education in public schools will promote Christian ethical standards for sexual activity. Christians cannot even agree among themselves as to what that might be. But surely there is enough studies and experience to be able to lay out for children the typical implications of sexual activity, and especially sexual activity at early ages, for emotional and social development, the role of commitment in an intimate relationship, self-esteem issues, and the like.

I've long been a fan of the singer Carol King, consider the song that she wrote with Gerry Goffin, "Will You Love Me Tomorrow." Not a Christian lyric, but one that raises concerns that proper sex education would need to raise. Sex education needs to involve more that passing out birth control with a user's manual and tell the kids to go have fun.

Pr. Fienan,

I understand your points and concern, but I really do not think the public schools should be tasked with handling the emotional and relational issues regarding sex. With parental consent, they should teach what sexual intercourse is, go over STDs and pregnancy, teach about contraception, and leave the rest to parents.  Acting otherwise, who knows what could get taught?

With the free birth control, it should be noted that some forms of birth control seem to be in actuality abortifacients. Switching from a surgical abortion to a chemical one does not remove it from being an abortion.

If we are talking about free birth control, one must ask who pays for it. Coercing people and institutions to pay for birth control against their conscience is a violation of religious freedom.

Excellent points.

Brian's third point was addressing abortion by addressing our rape culture. Very few abortions are performed because the conception was because of rape. As a method of reducing abortion, reducing rape would seem to have little effect. There are much more important reasons to address our rape culture. Legal issues have been addressed to both take rape and sexual assault more seriously and protect the victims from being revictimized by the legal system. More needs to be done. Cultural attitudes also need to be addressed. One point that I would point out, is that we all need to be more even handed in taking incidents of sexual assault and accusations thereof more seriously. We have had the spectacle in recent years from both the Right and the Left of accusations of sexual assault being taken very seriously when lodged against those on the other side and playing them down or outright ignoring them when lodged against an ally.

Again, I do not see this as much of an abortion issue as an important societal issue.

This, however, raises another issue that I think deserves more attention than it has received. In raising the issue of the current rape culture, the issue of how we regard women in general and their concerns. What value do we place on women if we allow them to be victimized and show little concern for their trauma and victimization and let their victimizers off easy? The answer is, of course, it betrays a low value placed on women. Undervaluing women, allowing them to be placed in situations where they are simply valued for their use rather than themselves is an age old problem. I would like to think that we have grown beyond that. In many ways we have, but we still have a long way to go.

This ties well with Pr. Hughes' post about sex trafficking.  We do need to talk with women about sexual harassment, assault, and similar issues.  Again though, I trust the home and church to do this better than the public schools and government.

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: and rare.
« Reply #9 on: September 03, 2020, 06:32:19 PM »
In regards to sex education. I had a woman express surprise when she got pregnant while nursing. She had thought that was not possible. Another woman had heard that one can't get pregnant the first time. She was wrong.


I don't know if these ladies had sex education classes or if they missed or ignored the parts about pregnancy, but somewhere along the line, they received misinformation about pregnancies. They both had surprise pregnancies that they didn't expect.


In regards to costs: while I haven't done any research on it, it seems to me that the cost of providing contraceptives for free to those who want them would be cheaper than the cost of an abortion which is certainly cheaper than the cost of giving birth and raising a child.


I've wondered: who would pay for the 600,000+ unwanted babies per year if their mothers gave birth to them? My hunch is that this cost would be higher than providing free birth control with proper instructions for use for those who want them.
"The church had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Dan Fienen

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Re: and rare.
« Reply #10 on: September 03, 2020, 06:38:58 PM »
Ah yes, abortion as a cost saving measure. A modest proposal worthy of Swift.
Pr. Daniel Fienen
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B Hughes

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Re: and rare.
« Reply #11 on: September 03, 2020, 06:39:51 PM »

I've wondered: who would pay for the 600,000+ unwanted babies per year if their mothers gave birth to them? My hunch is that this cost would be higher than providing free birth control with proper instructions for use for those who want them.

 How many of those babies are conceived because abortion was an assumed alternative? Be that as it may, placing a cost benefit analysis on a child is chilling.

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: and rare.
« Reply #12 on: September 03, 2020, 06:45:25 PM »
Ah yes, abortion as a cost saving measure. A modest proposal worthy of Swift.


Did you not read this post? Larger print and boldface added:


It might be helpful at this point to know the actual identified reasons women seek abortions, statistically speaking. According to one study posted at ResearchGate:
The predominant themes identified as reasons for seeking abortion included financial reasons (40%), timing (36%), partner related reasons (31%), and the need to focus on other children (29%). Most women reported multiple reasons for seeking an abortion crossing over several themes (64%). Using mixed effects multivariate logistic regression analyses, we identified the social and demographic predictors of the predominant themes women gave for seeking an abortion. Study findings demonstrate that the reasons women seek abortion are complex and interrelated, similar to those found in previous studies. While some women stated only one factor that contributed to their desire to terminate their pregnancies, others pointed to a myriad of factors that, cumulatively, resulted in their seeking abortion. As indicated by the differences we observed among women's reasons by individual characteristics, women seek abortion for reasons related to their circumstances, including their socioeconomic status, age, health, parity and marital status.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/247154506_Understanding_why_women_seek_abortions_in_the_US


The financial costs are one of the top reasons for seeking an abortion.
"The church had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: and rare.
« Reply #13 on: September 03, 2020, 06:51:33 PM »

I've wondered: who would pay for the 600,000+ unwanted babies per year if their mothers gave birth to them? My hunch is that this cost would be higher than providing free birth control with proper instructions for use for those who want them.

 How many of those babies are conceived because abortion was an assumed alternative? Be that as it may, placing a cost benefit analysis on a child is chilling.


Why did those women engage in sexual intercourse if they didn't want to have a baby? Yes, abortion is seen by many as a solution to an unwanted pregnancy. By calling abortion the problem, I think that the pro-life people are throwing at the wrong target. The problem are unwanted pregnancies. There are ways to reduce those.


As I see it, there are two basic solutions to that problem.
1. Stop getting pregnant if you don't want a child.
2. Turn the unwantedness of a pregnancy into something that is wanted.

"The church had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

MEKoch

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Re: and rare.
« Reply #14 on: September 03, 2020, 06:57:00 PM »
My daughter, during medicine internship for surgery, worked in New York City in Harlem at a clinic, where abortions were performed routinely in 2006.  The women came in for abortions, mostly did not use birth control.  Abortion was their birth control.  The same women came in again and again.  The head doctor strongly recommended that they have their "tubes tied."  But all most all refused.