Author Topic: Justice and Forgiveness  (Read 1197 times)

Brian Stoffregen

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 41904
  • ἐγὼ δὲ λέγω ὑμῖν, ἀγαπᾶτε τοὺς ἐχθροὺς ὑμῶν
    • View Profile
Justice and Forgiveness
« on: June 01, 2020, 12:39:02 PM »
How do we as Christians navigate Jesusí call to forgive, (not seek revenge; not punish others as their sins deserve); and the call for justice, (to punish others as their crimes warrant)?


This is a more general discuss rather than specifically about justice for George Floyd.




"The church Ö had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

readselerttoo

  • Guest
Re: Justice and Forgiveness
« Reply #1 on: June 01, 2020, 03:23:49 PM »
Good topic and so appropo for the churches to discuss.

Just some off the top of my head comments.  Under the machinations or workings of the law which operates for the most part in a "you-scratch-my-back-and-I-in-return-scratch yours, we act toward one another seeking to equal out an indebtedness placed upon us.  For example, to get food items for my family I must pay for them at a grocery store.  "I give to you as you give to me" like the oldies song goes.  In other words if I want a relationship with you (under the law) I'll give my attention to you but you have to listen in order to get my attention.  It happens in a vice-versa sort of way.

In another example, in order to drive to get my groceries I have to place myself under the civil laws when I drive in public.  I'm not out there driving by myself but there are other people out there doing the same thing for themselves and their families.  I'm placed in a situation of indebtedness to others so that should I run over someone with my car as I drive, I am indebted to pay for their medical expenses and a lawyer if I get sued.  I also become indebted to the lawyer to pay a retainer for his/her services. 

The common denominator is that I have placed myself indebted to others in order to make things right and to equal out any indebtedness to others.  I need food.  I must pay for food (so the others get paid for making and delivering the food) in order for me to get food.  Here's another example:  If I hit you, you have a right to hit me back in order to equal out the indebtedness.  It never ends under the law as we live under the law with and among others who live this way in their lives also.

It is a matter of living under the effects/affects of the law.  It usually has to do with living life among others, ie. neighbors or others (that is another topic for review:  who is my neighbor vs. the general public).

Under God Himself, He give good things to us everyday.  He gives me constant breath and if I choose only to live under the law I am indebted to give thanks to Him for each breath given.  See first article of Creed:  ...I am indebted (German, schuldig) to God to give thanks to Him for everythign at each moment.  A crushing burden is placed upon me for all these gifts.  But the creed does not leave us to live under indebtedness and its crushing load of guilt for not paying it back.  The creed is not just the first article.  There are two more.  THe next one is the kicker:  2nd article, God has given Jesus his Son to take upon Himself that indebtedness of ours and in its place God gives us what Jesus has received new life, freedom from death, etc.





Under the Gospel (which supplants life under the law with all its indebtednesses) Jesus actually takes all of that indebtedness upon Himself and takes it off my shoulders/the indebted one.  Jesus as the Suffering Servant takes upon Himself my sin (indebtedness) and puts it to death in His Body on the/His cross.  Under the Gospel we have actually become free of the crushing load because Jesus has taken that upon Himself and away from us.

However as sinners we still must suffer the indebtedness as we continue to live here but now not alone but as a Christian, with the One who has already gone to the cross with our indebtness/sin.  Having been connected to Christ's Living Body of which we are members, through the sacraments and faith, Christ has indeed taken away the sin/indebtedness and in return has given us eternal life with God/Himself/Christ.

I have a way of teaching Luther's Small Catechism which invites the student to first look at part one, ie. God's Law (the Decalogue) from the standpoint of how we will learn to understand God's law first as what God's demands that we do for justice reasons, in general.  Then we talk about how Christians understand God's law as Jesus applies it.  And then how St. Paul shows us what effects are created by the law as it acts upon oneself in one's life to see how it places us seriously under conditions of heavily applied indebtedness to create burdens on our life lived for justice effects/affects alone.  We are debtors to our neighbors under the law.  Justice seeks ways to make things right under the law through the satisfaction of indebtedness to others living under the law.  But this equaling out leading toward freedom from indebtedness never is enough to fulfill and exhaust within all arenas of living among others.  When one case is equaled out another one raises its head.  On and on it goes.  We search for lasting justice only found under living life and trusting what life gives us under the law.  But of course for Christians we discover that living for life under the law is to live under a curse (see Galatians 3)

"...with the law comes the knowledge of sin/indebtedness."  (taking liberties with the biblical text/Romans here)

God's law cannot exhaust the demand for justice because there is always more to pay for and to be paid for by trusting how the law operates for us and for the neighbor.


However in Jesus' cross ALONE does this neverending conundrum of satisfaction of indebtedness end and exhaust itself.  Christ's death ALONE silences the voice of the law with its accusations and demands.  He takes away the sin of the world through His Body.


All this is then taken up as the student moves from the Law portion of the catechism into the 2nd part of the catechism ie. the unique Gospel or the Creed.  Luther's meanings in article one and then article 2 deal with these issues of indebtedness and Christ's freeing us from this indebtedness through his death on the cross.  It's all there in the German version and the word, schuldig.


Notice:  We haven't gotten further than this if we don't then talk about the new life in the resurrection and life in the Body of Christ through His resurrection for us.  What comes after the resolution of indebtedness isn't justice (that was dealt with in Christ's death, it was fulfilled and then set aside).  What comes next is new life not based on the law and its effects (because Christ has set them aside in his death.)  His life provides something new or else Easter, the Ascension and Pentecost would be meaningless if there wasn't more than satisfaction for sin, more than Good Friday (Karfreitag)

Some scriptural references for this unique and one-off turn into new life in Christ following his death:

1.  Romans 5

2.  Romans 3

3.  1 Corinthians 15

et. al.
« Last Edit: June 01, 2020, 03:53:29 PM by readselerttoo »

Brian Stoffregen

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 41904
  • ἐγὼ δὲ λέγω ὑμῖν, ἀγαπᾶτε τοὺς ἐχθροὺς ὑμῶν
    • View Profile
Re: Justice and Forgiveness
« Reply #2 on: June 01, 2020, 06:17:30 PM »
A distinction I make is that I can forgive someone who has sinned/committed a crime against me. This means that I won't seek to get even with them. I cannot be motivated by revenge when I've forgiven the perpetrator.


However, in seeking justice, I turn that aspect over to others who have the authority to investigate and carry out the judgment and punishment if warranted.
"The church Ö had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

readselerttoo

  • Guest
Re: Justice and Forgiveness
« Reply #3 on: June 02, 2020, 10:48:43 AM »
A distinction I make is that I can forgive someone who has sinned/committed a crime against me. This means that I won't seek to get even with them. I cannot be motivated by revenge when I've forgiven the perpetrator.


However, in seeking justice, I turn that aspect over to others who have the authority to investigate and carry out the judgment and punishment if warranted.


By forgiving the other person in Jesus' name I have been freed from having to be motivated by the aspect of the law that seeks revenge .  For me the actual saying "in Jesus' name" out loud to the other and to myself in both our hearings Jesus is the one who is the focus.   I am seeking Jesus' work on the cross for me who is a sinner and not looking at the person who has wronged me.  Jesus forgives both of us and we stand together on the same level before Jesus. 

Revenge pits my need to be right over and against the one who has harmed me or who I have harmed.  But in Jesus' name that revenge stance is levelled out because, at least for me as I can't really speak for the other, Jesus has forgiven me.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2020, 10:50:26 AM by readselerttoo »

James J Eivan

  • Guest
Re: Justice and Forgiveness
« Reply #4 on: June 02, 2020, 11:21:53 AM »
A distinction I make is that I can forgive someone who has sinned/committed a crime against me. This means that I won't seek to get even with them. I cannot be motivated by revenge when I've forgiven the perpetrator.

However, in seeking justice, I turn that aspect over to others who have the authority to investigate and carry out the judgment and punishment if warranted.
By forgiving the other person in Jesus' name I have been freed from having to be motivated by the aspect of the law that seeks revenge .  For me the actual saying "in Jesus' name" out loud to the other and to myself in both our hearings Jesus is the one who is the focus.   I am seeking Jesus' work on the cross for me who is a sinner and not looking at the person who has wronged me.  Jesus forgives both of us and we stand together on the same level before Jesus. 

Revenge pits my need to be right over and against the one who has harmed me or who I have harmed.  But in Jesus' name that revenge stance is levelled out because, at least for me as I can't really speak for the other, Jesus has forgiven me.
Divine forgiveness in no way precludes or negates the consequences of sin. King David, despite his adulterous relationship with Bathsheba, was considered a man after [Godís] own heart.  Yes he was forgiven for this sin and all others, yet God still pronounced the divine consequences of that sin ... the death of infant child resulting from the sinful relationship.

readselerttoo

  • Guest
Re: Justice and Forgiveness
« Reply #5 on: June 02, 2020, 11:30:45 AM »
A distinction I make is that I can forgive someone who has sinned/committed a crime against me. This means that I won't seek to get even with them. I cannot be motivated by revenge when I've forgiven the perpetrator.

However, in seeking justice, I turn that aspect over to others who have the authority to investigate and carry out the judgment and punishment if warranted.
By forgiving the other person in Jesus' name I have been freed from having to be motivated by the aspect of the law that seeks revenge .  For me the actual saying "in Jesus' name" out loud to the other and to myself in both our hearings Jesus is the one who is the focus.   I am seeking Jesus' work on the cross for me who is a sinner and not looking at the person who has wronged me.  Jesus forgives both of us and we stand together on the same level before Jesus. 

Revenge pits my need to be right over and against the one who has harmed me or who I have harmed.  But in Jesus' name that revenge stance is levelled out because, at least for me as I can't really speak for the other, Jesus has forgiven me.
Divine forgiveness in no way precludes or negates the consequences of sin. King David, despite his adulterous relationship with Bathsheba, was considered a man after [Godís] own heart.  Yes he was forgiven for this sin and all others, yet God still pronounced the divine consequences of that sin ... the death of infant child resulting from the sinful relationship.

Correct.  No doubt.  In that case if not upon others as well.  All these incidents in Israel's history happened prior to Christ's appearance historically.

James J Eivan

  • Guest
Re: Justice and Forgiveness
« Reply #6 on: June 02, 2020, 11:54:11 AM »
A distinction I make is that I can forgive someone who has sinned/committed a crime against me. This means that I won't seek to get even with them. I cannot be motivated by revenge when I've forgiven the perpetrator.

However, in seeking justice, I turn that aspect over to others who have the authority to investigate and carry out the judgment and punishment if warranted.
By forgiving the other person in Jesus' name I have been freed from having to be motivated by the aspect of the law that seeks revenge .  For me the actual saying "in Jesus' name" out loud to the other and to myself in both our hearings Jesus is the one who is the focus.   I am seeking Jesus' work on the cross for me who is a sinner and not looking at the person who has wronged me.  Jesus forgives both of us and we stand together on the same level before Jesus. 

Revenge pits my need to be right over and against the one who has harmed me or who I have harmed.  But in Jesus' name that revenge stance is levelled out because, at least for me as I can't really speak for the other, Jesus has forgiven me.
Divine forgiveness in no way precludes or negates the consequences of sin. King David, despite his adulterous relationship with Bathsheba, was considered a man after [Godís] own heart.  Yes he was forgiven for this sin and all others, yet God still pronounced the divine consequences of that sin ... the death of infant child resulting from the sinful relationship.

Correct.  No doubt.  In that case if not upon others as well.  All these incidents in Israel's history happened prior to Christ's appearance historically.
But in no way negating the precedence and validity of the sinner not only being forgiven ... but suffering the consequences of sin as well. You and I will suffer the ultimate consequence of sin ... DEATH ... unless the Lord returns prior to our death.

Brian Stoffregen

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 41904
  • ἐγὼ δὲ λέγω ὑμῖν, ἀγαπᾶτε τοὺς ἐχθροὺς ὑμῶν
    • View Profile
Re: Justice and Forgiveness
« Reply #7 on: June 02, 2020, 12:08:14 PM »
A distinction I make is that I can forgive someone who has sinned/committed a crime against me. This means that I won't seek to get even with them. I cannot be motivated by revenge when I've forgiven the perpetrator.


However, in seeking justice, I turn that aspect over to others who have the authority to investigate and carry out the judgment and punishment if warranted.


By forgiving the other person in Jesus' name I have been freed from having to be motivated by the aspect of the law that seeks revenge .  For me the actual saying "in Jesus' name" out loud to the other and to myself in both our hearings Jesus is the one who is the focus.   I am seeking Jesus' work on the cross for me who is a sinner and not looking at the person who has wronged me.  Jesus forgives both of us and we stand together on the same level before Jesus. 

Revenge pits my need to be right over and against the one who has harmed me or who I have harmed.  But in Jesus' name that revenge stance is levelled out because, at least for me as I can't really speak for the other, Jesus has forgiven me.


I believe that Jesus asks us to forgive others, not just pronounce Jesus' forgiveness.


What does our forgiveness mean practically? When a young adult, in a stolen pickup, with drugs in the vehicle, tried to run away from the police and crashed into our house, should we have asked her to pay for the damages - or at least our deductible? (We discovered that the deductible on the house insurance does not apply to the deductible on the car insurance. She ran into the garage and damaged both the house, the car in the garage, and some of the contents in the garage.)


What does it mean for a wife/husband to forgive an alcoholic or addicted husband/wife? What should a pastor tell a spouse who exclaims, "I can no longer forgive him/her"? Does such an unforgiving person nullify Jesus' forgiveness? Jesus tells us to pray: "Forgive us for the ways we have wronged you, just as we also forgive those who have wronged us." (Matt. 6:12 CEB) And, ďIf you forgive others their sins, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you donít forgive others, neither will your Father forgive your sins." (Matt. 6:14-15 CEB)
« Last Edit: June 02, 2020, 12:16:02 PM by Brian Stoffregen »
"The church Ö had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Brian Stoffregen

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 41904
  • ἐγὼ δὲ λέγω ὑμῖν, ἀγαπᾶτε τοὺς ἐχθροὺς ὑμῶν
    • View Profile
Re: Justice and Forgiveness
« Reply #8 on: June 02, 2020, 12:20:09 PM »
A distinction I make is that I can forgive someone who has sinned/committed a crime against me. This means that I won't seek to get even with them. I cannot be motivated by revenge when I've forgiven the perpetrator.

However, in seeking justice, I turn that aspect over to others who have the authority to investigate and carry out the judgment and punishment if warranted.
By forgiving the other person in Jesus' name I have been freed from having to be motivated by the aspect of the law that seeks revenge .  For me the actual saying "in Jesus' name" out loud to the other and to myself in both our hearings Jesus is the one who is the focus.   I am seeking Jesus' work on the cross for me who is a sinner and not looking at the person who has wronged me.  Jesus forgives both of us and we stand together on the same level before Jesus. 

Revenge pits my need to be right over and against the one who has harmed me or who I have harmed.  But in Jesus' name that revenge stance is levelled out because, at least for me as I can't really speak for the other, Jesus has forgiven me.
Divine forgiveness in no way precludes or negates the consequences of sin. King David, despite his adulterous relationship with Bathsheba, was considered a man after [Godís] own heart.  Yes he was forgiven for this sin and all others, yet God still pronounced the divine consequences of that sin ... the death of infant child resulting from the sinful relationship.

Correct.  No doubt.  In that case if not upon others as well.  All these incidents in Israel's history happened prior to Christ's appearance historically.
But in no way negating the precedence and validity of the sinner not only being forgiven ... but suffering the consequences of sin as well. You and I will suffer the ultimate consequence of sin ... DEATH ... unless the Lord returns prior to our death.


In Hebrew thinking and language, "committing a sin" and "suffering for sin" are connected. The same word is used for both. Thus, if someone was suffering, they assumed it was because of a sin they had committed, e.g., Job's friends; Jesus' disciples asking about the sin that caused the man to be born blind.


Forgiveness is about both removing the guilt and the consequences/suffering caused by the sin.
"The church Ö had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

James J Eivan

  • Guest
Re: Justice and Forgiveness
« Reply #9 on: June 02, 2020, 12:31:44 PM »
A distinction I make is that I can forgive someone who has sinned/committed a crime against me. This means that I won't seek to get even with them. I cannot be motivated by revenge when I've forgiven the perpetrator.

However, in seeking justice, I turn that aspect over to others who have the authority to investigate and carry out the judgment and punishment if warranted.

By forgiving the other person in Jesus' name I have been freed from having to be motivated by the aspect of the law that seeks revenge .  For me the actual saying "in Jesus' name" out loud to the other and to myself in both our hearings Jesus is the one who is the focus.   I am seeking Jesus' work on the cross for me who is a sinner and not looking at the person who has wronged me.  Jesus forgives both of us and we stand together on the same level before Jesus. 

Revenge pits my need to be right over and against the one who has harmed me or who I have harmed.  But in Jesus' name that revenge stance is levelled out because, at least for me as I can't really speak for the other, Jesus has forgiven me.

I believe that Jesus asks us to forgive others, not just pronounce Jesus' forgiveness.
Given the Lordís Prayer ĎForgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who sin against us.Ē  Itís difficult to fathom someoneís faith to pronounce Godís forgiveness without forgiving the person themselves.

Brian Stoffregen

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 41904
  • ἐγὼ δὲ λέγω ὑμῖν, ἀγαπᾶτε τοὺς ἐχθροὺς ὑμῶν
    • View Profile
Re: Justice and Forgiveness
« Reply #10 on: June 02, 2020, 12:42:10 PM »
A distinction I make is that I can forgive someone who has sinned/committed a crime against me. This means that I won't seek to get even with them. I cannot be motivated by revenge when I've forgiven the perpetrator.

However, in seeking justice, I turn that aspect over to others who have the authority to investigate and carry out the judgment and punishment if warranted.

By forgiving the other person in Jesus' name I have been freed from having to be motivated by the aspect of the law that seeks revenge .  For me the actual saying "in Jesus' name" out loud to the other and to myself in both our hearings Jesus is the one who is the focus.   I am seeking Jesus' work on the cross for me who is a sinner and not looking at the person who has wronged me.  Jesus forgives both of us and we stand together on the same level before Jesus. 

Revenge pits my need to be right over and against the one who has harmed me or who I have harmed.  But in Jesus' name that revenge stance is leveled out because, at least for me as I can't really speak for the other, Jesus has forgiven me.

I believe that Jesus asks us to forgive others, not just pronounce Jesus' forgiveness.
Given the Lordís Prayer ĎForgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who sin against us.Ē  Itís difficult to fathom someoneís faith to pronounce Godís forgiveness without forgiving the person themselves.


As a side note: the biblical versions of the Lord's Prayer do not use "trespasses".
"The church Ö had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Richard Johnson

  • ALPB Administrator
  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 10308
  • Create in me a clean heart, O God.
    • View Profile
Re: Justice and Forgiveness
« Reply #11 on: June 02, 2020, 03:21:15 PM »


As a side note: the biblical versions of the Lord's Prayer do not use "trespasses".

Of course not. They're written in Greek.  ::)
The Rev. Richard O. Johnson, STS

readselerttoo

  • Guest
Re: Justice and Forgiveness
« Reply #12 on: June 02, 2020, 03:28:52 PM »
A distinction I make is that I can forgive someone who has sinned/committed a crime against me. This means that I won't seek to get even with them. I cannot be motivated by revenge when I've forgiven the perpetrator.


However, in seeking justice, I turn that aspect over to others who have the authority to investigate and carry out the judgment and punishment if warranted.


By forgiving the other person in Jesus' name I have been freed from having to be motivated by the aspect of the law that seeks revenge .  For me the actual saying "in Jesus' name" out loud to the other and to myself in both our hearings Jesus is the one who is the focus.   I am seeking Jesus' work on the cross for me who is a sinner and not looking at the person who has wronged me.  Jesus forgives both of us and we stand together on the same level before Jesus. 

Revenge pits my need to be right over and against the one who has harmed me or who I have harmed.  But in Jesus' name that revenge stance is levelled out because, at least for me as I can't really speak for the other, Jesus has forgiven me.


I believe that Jesus asks us to forgive others, not just pronounce Jesus' forgiveness.


What does our forgiveness mean practically? When a young adult, in a stolen pickup, with drugs in the vehicle, tried to run away from the police and crashed into our house, should we have asked her to pay for the damages - or at least our deductible? (We discovered that the deductible on the house insurance does not apply to the deductible on the car insurance. She ran into the garage and damaged both the house, the car in the garage, and some of the contents in the garage.)


What does it mean for a wife/husband to forgive an alcoholic or addicted husband/wife? What should a pastor tell a spouse who exclaims, "I can no longer forgive him/her"? Does such an unforgiving person nullify Jesus' forgiveness? Jesus tells us to pray: "Forgive us for the ways we have wronged you, just as we also forgive those who have wronged us." (Matt. 6:12 CEB) And, ďIf you forgive others their sins, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you donít forgive others, neither will your Father forgive your sins." (Matt. 6:14-15 CEB)


So you don't believe God's word (pronouncement) actually does what it says.  To not believe the pronouncement of Jesus' forgiveness is to end up in un-belief.  The only alternative then is revenge and self-seeking one's own way of finding justice.  Un-belief is to say the Jesus' pronouncement of forgiveness is not valid for me first, and then for the other.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2020, 10:58:40 PM by readselerttoo »

readselerttoo

  • Guest
Re: Justice and Forgiveness
« Reply #13 on: June 02, 2020, 03:36:42 PM »
A distinction I make is that I can forgive someone who has sinned/committed a crime against me. This means that I won't seek to get even with them. I cannot be motivated by revenge when I've forgiven the perpetrator.

However, in seeking justice, I turn that aspect over to others who have the authority to investigate and carry out the judgment and punishment if warranted.
By forgiving the other person in Jesus' name I have been freed from having to be motivated by the aspect of the law that seeks revenge .  For me the actual saying "in Jesus' name" out loud to the other and to myself in both our hearings Jesus is the one who is the focus.   I am seeking Jesus' work on the cross for me who is a sinner and not looking at the person who has wronged me.  Jesus forgives both of us and we stand together on the same level before Jesus. 

Revenge pits my need to be right over and against the one who has harmed me or who I have harmed.  But in Jesus' name that revenge stance is levelled out because, at least for me as I can't really speak for the other, Jesus has forgiven me.
Divine forgiveness in no way precludes or negates the consequences of sin. King David, despite his adulterous relationship with Bathsheba, was considered a man after [Godís] own heart.  Yes he was forgiven for this sin and all others, yet God still pronounced the divine consequences of that sin ... the death of infant child resulting from the sinful relationship.

Correct.  No doubt.  In that case if not upon others as well.  All these incidents in Israel's history happened prior to Christ's appearance historically.
But in no way negating the precedence and validity of the sinner not only being forgiven ... but suffering the consequences of sin as well. You and I will suffer the ultimate consequence of sin ... DEATH ... unless the Lord returns prior to our death.


In Hebrew thinking and language, "committing a sin" and "suffering for sin" are connected. The same word is used for both. Thus, if someone was suffering, they assumed it was because of a sin they had committed, e.g., Job's friends; Jesus' disciples asking about the sin that caused the man to be born blind.


Forgiveness is about both removing the guilt and the consequences/suffering caused by the sin.

Christian forgiveness is about this in that Jesus removes both the guilt and the consequences/suffering caused by sin.  It is all on Him and not on us.  In that respect what the crowds shouted at Jesus' trial are certainly true:  "His blood be on us and on our children."

readselerttoo

  • Guest
Re: Justice and Forgiveness
« Reply #14 on: June 02, 2020, 03:45:12 PM »
I believe that Jesus ends all suffering.  Anything else would deny His capacity to do so.