Author Topic: Gun Control Again  (Read 17029 times)

Dan Fienen

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Gun Control Again
« on: October 03, 2017, 04:32:12 PM »

Hardly had the echoes of gunfire died on the Vegas Strip when advocates for gun control started howling again that we need gun control laws to keep such a thing from happening again.  We don't even know all the particulars of what went into this mass shooting so how can laws be crafted yet to keep it from happening again?  From what we have learned so far as I write this, there was little or no advance warning for this shooting.  The alleged shooter was not on any watch list, does not have a history of mental illness, nor does he seem to have been radicalized or have a ideological motivation.  More may turn up in time, but some of the typical signs that are watched for were not present.  Initial indications are that the guns he purchased he purchased legally and passed standard background checks for.  There is some suspicion that he illegally modified a couple of his semi-automatic rifles to full automatic.  (And if it is true what I heard in the news that it is legal to purchase kits to do just that, that would be a good topic for a law.)


We could always use the Pr. Austin solution.  Freedoms and rights are limited to those which he sympathizes with and approves of.  Things that are foolish, stupid or otherwise not favored have little or no rights attached to them.  Pr. Austin does not approve of guns, doesn't understand the enjoyment of collecting or using guns in hunting or target practice, and suspects those who do so of using guns to compensate for some psychosexual deficiency, so any rights of gun ownership are negligible and should readily be set aside in favor of limiting access to guns.  People don't need them, they're dangerous so cut way back on gun ownership.  Makes sense to him so it should make sense to everyone.  Why don't people instead of owning guns have a sensible hobby like building sand castles, coloring, petting cats or baking cookies?


More seriously, what kinds of gun control measures could have prevented the deaths and injuries in Las Vegas?  As we are still very early in the investigation, it is hard to say what could have prevented it.  So, are the gun control advocates who jump on this and demand the enactment of legislation simply exploiting the death and injury in Las Vegas to push their agenda?


Gun control legislation, like most other legislation, must balance the presumed benefit to the public good with the impact on personal freedom.  Preservation of personal freedom is one of the bedrock principles of our republic.  After 9/11 the laws enacted to try to prevent such an attack from happening again.  Laws like the Patriot Act and those establishing the TSA may well have saved us from some further attacks, but at a cost of freedom, privacy and convenience.  Was that loss worth the gain in security and safety?  That is still being debated as is the effectiveness of some provisions of those and similar laws.


Gun control laws have the effective of curtailing the freedom of gun owners.  Is it worthy it?  Everyone will have their own judgement.  Those who disapprove of gun ownership in general will be unconcerned if it inconveniences gun owners.  But even gun owners are citizens and have rights.  As gun control legislation is contemplated, several questions should be considered.  Of primary concern is whether the law would actually be effective.  Of concern also should be whether it takes into account the rights and freedoms of law abiding citizens who have no criminal intent.



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Re: Gun Control Again
« Reply #1 on: October 03, 2017, 04:52:28 PM »
Simple solution: Everybody can carry a gun most every place.
Also, air rage would decrease if everyone on the plane carried a machete.
So simple.
Pete Garrison

Dan Fienen

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Re: Gun Control Again
« Reply #2 on: October 03, 2017, 05:02:01 PM »
Further investigation has turned up some sinister background of the alleged shooter.  For a number of years he was an agent of that most sinister of outfits, the IRS.  Before that he was a postal worker, a letter carrier.  He certainly went postal on Las Vegas.
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SomeoneWrites

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Re: Gun Control Again
« Reply #3 on: October 03, 2017, 08:06:12 PM »
I consider myself pro gun.  Definitely pro hand gun.  I currently am persuaded to think most people should carry. 
I'm pro hunting.  My family hunts. My friends hunt.  I support responsible hunting. 
I own a few rifles.  I have a revolver in my bedroom.   

Simple solution: Everybody can carry a gun most every place.
Also, air rage would decrease if everyone on the plane carried a machete.
So simple.

This would not help at all for situations like these. 
I understand there's vans, bombs, pressure cookers, etc.  I understand that rhetoric.
I understand the rhetoric every time someone points a finger at Chicago.  Most of my life has been in Chicago.

 - It's still off.  It's still wonky.  It's still too much.  It's going to happen again.


http://www.theonion.com/article/no-way-prevent-says-only-nation-where-regularly-ha-51443
https://twitter.com/anthonyjeselnik/status/742137230374764544?lang=en


I would really like to see pro-gun advocates give a plan. 

Until then, I'm gonna go out on a limb and say there will be another with 30 dead by this time next year.  I'm gonna book mark this page and start a thread then. 
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Terry W Culler

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Re: Gun Control Again
« Reply #4 on: October 03, 2017, 08:35:16 PM »
The problem isn't guns or laws controlling or not controlling them.  The problem is that we live in a course and debased culture in which movies are made with assassins as heroes, sex is a commodity that is used to sell just about everything and the 10 Commandments are considered too something or another for public display.  When a culture degenerates as ours has over the last 50 odd years we shouldn't expect anything else.  We have met the enemy and it is us.
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SomeoneWrites

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Re: Gun Control Again
« Reply #5 on: October 03, 2017, 08:43:30 PM »
The problem isn't guns or laws controlling or not controlling them.  The problem is that we live in a course and debased culture in which movies are made with assassins as heroes, sex is a commodity that is used to sell just about everything and the 10 Commandments are considered too something or another for public display.  When a culture degenerates as ours has over the last 50 odd years we shouldn't expect anything else.  We have met the enemy and it is us.

I'm disgusted by this response. 

Other countries that don't have this problem have the same access to the movies and sex. 
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Weedon

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Re: Gun Control Again
« Reply #6 on: October 03, 2017, 08:51:30 PM »
So I heard about the shooting on the morning of the second of the month. And the Psalms for that morning in the 30 day Psalter included:

He sits in ambush in the villages; in hiding places he murders the innocent. He eyes stealthily watch for the helpless.

The helpless are crushed, sink down, and fall by his might.

Arise, O Lord; O God, lift up your hand, forget not the afflicted. (All from Psalm 10)

For behold the wicked bend the bow; they have fitted their arrow to the string to shoot in the dark at the upright in heart; if the foundations are destroyed, what can the righteous do? (Psalm 11)

And in the evening, from Psalm 12

On every side the wicked prowl, as vileness is exalted among the children of man.

Which is just to note, the wickedness that we saw on display at the concert is not new; it’s an ancient malady. It is a malady not of the weapon, per se, but of the heart. Taking away one murderous weapon has never yet stopped the murderer from finding and employing another. If only there were a way to create in a murderer a clean heart and to renew a right spirit within him...

The prayer we posted to social media the morning after the attack:

Lord, have mercy. Christ, have mercy. Lord, have mercy.

O Lord Jesus, our hearts break for the many lives taken last night, for the families shattered and the multitude of the wounded. We lay before you this morning every grieving heart, every injured body, every person crying out to You in perplexity and anguish. Have mercy, Lord, upon them all. We ask this in Your name, You whose own eyes wept in the presence of death and in whose invincible love and forgiveness is this sad world’s only hope. Amen.

« Last Edit: October 03, 2017, 09:05:56 PM by Weedon »

peter_speckhard

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Re: Gun Control Again
« Reply #7 on: October 03, 2017, 09:04:13 PM »
I don't own any guns, but I do instinctively distrust any government that doesn't trust the citizenry to be armed. As long as government officials enjoy armed protection, then no government of the people, by the people, and for the people can say that the people must not be armed. The joke I saw earlier that I thought made a fair point was that many of the same people who compare our president to Hitler also think the government should be taking guns away from people. Not sure they've thought that through.

On the other hand, where is a legitimate line between bearing arms and becoming a military force? Should private citizens be allowed to purchase an F-16 fighter jet? Ballistic missile? Nuclear warhead? I would say not, of course. So between having a knife on your belt and having a fully operational Death Star there has to be some reasonable line. Where is it?   
« Last Edit: October 03, 2017, 11:30:14 PM by peter_speckhard »

Charles Austin

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Re: Gun Control Again
« Reply #8 on: October 03, 2017, 09:06:09 PM »
Pastor Fienen writes:
We could always use the Pr. Austin solution.  Freedoms and rights are limited to those which he sympathizes with and approves of.  Things that are foolish, stupid or otherwise not favored have little or no rights attached to them.  Pr. Austin does not approve of guns, doesn't understand the enjoyment of collecting or using guns in hunting or target practice, and suspects those who do so of using guns to compensate for some psychosexual deficiency, so any rights of gun ownership are negligible and should readily be set aside in favor of limiting access to guns.  People don't need them, they're dangerous so cut way back on gun ownership.  Makes sense to him so it should make sense to everyone.  Why don't people instead of owning guns have a sensible hobby like building sand castles, coloring, petting cats or baking cookies?

I comment:
People are still dying from that horrible attack and that you should use what you think are my views in a mocking way to discuss this tragedy is disgusting, outrageous and damned offensive. Furthermore, you do not understand my concern about high-powered weapons. Most of my family and friends are hunters and I do not harass them about their guns.
   If you want to discuss this topic, do not bring me into your discussion and have the decency (you do have some decency, I hope) not to make fun of what you think are my views less than 48 hours after these terrible killings and woundings. You add to the desecration of these killings by your mockery.
   You have not heard me speak of gun control so soon after this terrible event, and you will probably never hear me speak of it. Thump your tub for free guns everywhere as much as you want, but leave me out of it. 
   (I know your mouth waters at the chance to get in some more shots at "liberals," but you should not be thinking of that right now.) Yours was one of the most thoughtless, mean-spirited things I have ever seen posted here.
    Some of us would rather meditate on the dead and wounded people and their families.
   
Retired ELCA Pastor. Former national staff Lutheran Church in America And the Lutheran world Federation, Geneva. Former journalist. Now retired and living in Minneapolis.

SomeoneWrites

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Re: Gun Control Again
« Reply #9 on: October 04, 2017, 12:19:19 AM »
I don't own any guns, but I do instinctively distrust any government that doesn't trust the citizenry to be armed. As long as government officials enjoy armed protection, then no government of the people, by the people, and for the people can say that the people must not be armed. The joke I saw earlier that I thought made a fair point was that many of the same people who compare our president to Hitler also think the government should be taking guns away from people. Not sure they've thought that through.

On the other hand, where is a legitimate line between bearing arms and becoming a military force? Should private citizens be allowed to purchase an F-16 fighter jet? Ballistic missile? Nuclear warhead? I would say not, of course. So between having a knife on your belt and having a fully operational Death Star there has to be some reasonable line. Where is it?

I agree with and respect your response.  Can I ask what lines you find sensible.  I'm still considering some factors, myself. 
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Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Gun Control Again
« Reply #10 on: October 04, 2017, 02:55:32 AM »
I don't own any guns, but I do instinctively distrust any government that doesn't trust the citizenry to be armed. As long as government officials enjoy armed protection, then no government of the people, by the people, and for the people can say that the people must not be armed. The joke I saw earlier that I thought made a fair point was that many of the same people who compare our president to Hitler also think the government should be taking guns away from people. Not sure they've thought that through.

On the other hand, where is a legitimate line between bearing arms and becoming a military force? Should private citizens be allowed to purchase an F-16 fighter jet? Ballistic missile? Nuclear warhead? I would say not, of course. So between having a knife on your belt and having a fully operational Death Star there has to be some reasonable line. Where is it?

I agree with and respect your response.  Can I ask what lines you find sensible.  I'm still considering some factors, myself.


One that was posted on Facebook is to treat bullets like Sudafed. Keep them behind the counter. Buyers need to sign in to purchase them. If sellers believe someone is buying too much for their proper use, authorities are contacted.
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Coach-Rev

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Re: Gun Control Again
« Reply #11 on: October 04, 2017, 06:41:22 AM »
makes perfect sense to me.  Outlaw guns only AFTER God has been outlawed.  Problem solved.   :o ::)

Simple fact is guns have been a part of the American culture since before the ink was dry on the second amendment.  Why now?  Why the last 50 or so years have these mass shootings become so common?  So what else happened in our country approximately 50 years ago?  Could it be the systematic purging of God from the American landscape?  The redefining of the so-called separation of church and state from what it was in the first nearly 200 years?  The removal of the Bible from schools, the outlawing of prayer in school, the elimination of religious things in public and government buildings, and the like?  I find it fascinating the correlation between the two, and I find it rather expected that you apparently don't see the link between the two, as Pr. Culler has articulated.  If you don't think our culture has degenerated over the last 50 years, then we are on very different planets.

The problem isn't guns or laws controlling or not controlling them.  The problem is that we live in a course and debased culture in which movies are made with assassins as heroes, sex is a commodity that is used to sell just about everything and the 10 Commandments are considered too something or another for public display.  When a culture degenerates as ours has over the last 50 odd years we shouldn't expect anything else.  We have met the enemy and it is us.

I'm disgusted by this response. 

Other countries that don't have this problem have the same access to the movies and sex.
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James S. Rustad

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Re: Gun Control Again
« Reply #12 on: October 04, 2017, 08:10:10 AM »
One that was posted on Facebook is to treat bullets like Sudafed. Keep them behind the counter. Buyers need to sign in to purchase them. If sellers believe someone is buying too much for their proper use, authorities are contacted.

There used to be a signature requirement for handgun ammunition.  It was eventually dropped as it had no discernible affect on crime.

People who shoot in competition (the shooting equivalent of golf) will easily go through a thousand rounds a month.  How much is too much?

Until recently, I usually had about a thousand rounds in my house between the various firearms I own (down right now as supply has been tight in the US).  How much is too much?

How do we tell the difference between someone buying a case of ammunition for normal use and someone buying it for nefarious use?

Let's wait and see what ithe facts are before we propose new laws or regulations.

Coach-Rev

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Re: Gun Control Again
« Reply #13 on: October 04, 2017, 08:38:46 AM »
   You have not heard me speak of gun control ...and you will probably never hear me speak of it.

that would be a refreshing change, and certainly is not indicative of your history here, as you take the opportunity to "thump your tub" as you call it at every turn.
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Dave Benke

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Re: Gun Control Again
« Reply #14 on: October 04, 2017, 08:47:25 AM »
Here's an editorial from the New York Post, which is by far and away our city's most conservative newspaper, on what measures might be taken with regard to guns.  To me, they're just common sense:

http://nypost.com/2017/10/03/after-las-vegas-looking-for-answers/

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