Author Topic: Concluding Thoughts on Houston  (Read 8722 times)

ptmccain

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Re: Concluding Thoughts on Houston
« Reply #60 on: July 22, 2010, 09:49:41 AM »
Pastor Austin:

Incorrect.

See the Six Chief Part of the Small Catechism.

VI. The Sacrament of the Altar

As the head of the family should teach it in a simple way to his household.

What is the Sacrament of the Altar?

It is the true body and blood of our Lord Jesus Christ, under the bread and wine, for us Christians to eat and to drink, instituted by Christ Himself.

Where is this written?

The holy Evangelists, Matthew, Mark, Luke, and St. Paul, write thus:

Our Lord Jesus Christ, the same night in which He was betrayed, took bread: and when He had given thanks, He brake it, and gave it to His disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is My body, which is given for you. This do in remembrance of Me.

After the same manner also He took the cup, when He had supped, gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Take, drink ye all of it. This cup is the new testament in My blood, which is shed for you for the remission of sins. This do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of Me.

What is the benefit of such eating and drinking?

That is shown us in these words: Given, and shed for you, for the remission of sins; namely, that in the Sacrament forgiveness of sins, life, and salvation are given us through these words. For where there is forgiveness of sins, there is also life and salvation.

How can bodily eating and drinking do such great things?

It is not the eating and drinking, indeed, that does them, but the words which stand here, namely: Given, and shed for you, for the remission of sins. Which words are, beside the bodily eating and drinking, as the chief thing in the Sacrament; and he that believes these words has what they say and express, namely, the forgiveness of sins.

Who, then, receives such Sacrament worthily?

Fasting and bodily preparation is, indeed, a fine outward training; but he is truly worthy and well prepared who has faith in these words: Given, and shed for you, for the remission of sins.

But he that does not believe these words, or doubts, is unworthy and unfit; for the words For you require altogether believing hearts.


Weedon

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Re: Concluding Thoughts on Houston
« Reply #61 on: July 22, 2010, 09:53:09 AM »
I'd have referenced the Formula's explicit words on the consecration:  FC VII:73ff noting especially "Not because of our speaking or our declarative word, but because of His command in which He has told us so to speak and to do and has attached His own command and deed *to our speaking.*" (78)  "This indeed happens in no other way than through the repetition and recitation of the words of institution" (82)   
William Weedon, Assistant Pastor
St. Paul Lutheran Church, Hamel IL
Catechist on LPR Podcast: The Word of the Lord Endures Forever
A Daily, Verse-by-Verse Bible Study with the Church, Past and Present
www.thewordendures.org

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ptmccain

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Re: Concluding Thoughts on Houston
« Reply #62 on: July 22, 2010, 09:57:33 AM »
That's a good one too.

You know, sometimes the Lutheran Confessions really do come in handy!

 :)

Weedon

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Re: Concluding Thoughts on Houston
« Reply #63 on: July 22, 2010, 10:07:04 AM »
For the record, it's important that Luther does not lose the role of the Holy Spirit in the consecration.  He rather identifies and locates that role in conjunction with our Lord's Words.  So he says, for example, in AE 36:341:  "For as soon as Christ says, 'This is my body,' his body is present through the Word *and the power of the Holy Spirit.*  If the Word is not there, it is mere bread; but as soon as the words are added they bring with them that of which they speak."
William Weedon, Assistant Pastor
St. Paul Lutheran Church, Hamel IL
Catechist on LPR Podcast: The Word of the Lord Endures Forever
A Daily, Verse-by-Verse Bible Study with the Church, Past and Present
www.thewordendures.org

+Verbum Domini Manet in Aeternum

WJV

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Re: Concluding Thoughts on Houston
« Reply #64 on: July 22, 2010, 10:20:20 AM »
I'd have referenced the Formula's explicit words on the consecration:  FC VII:73ff noting especially "Not because of our speaking or our declarative word, but because of His command in which He has told us so to speak and to do and has attached His own command and deed *to our speaking.*" (78)  "This indeed happens in no other way than through the repetition and recitation of the words of institution" (82)   

FC VII also shows us what lies behind said attachment: in 44, 45, and 47 (here sans Lord), Jesus is called "Lord, Creator, and Redeemer". The use of Creator throws us back to Genesis 1 and focuses our attention on the Word which does what it says: "these words were spoken by that Lord who is infinite Wisdom and Truth itself, and also can execute and accomplish everything which He promises".

Mike Gehlhausen

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Re: Concluding Thoughts on Houston
« Reply #65 on: July 22, 2010, 10:35:53 AM »
How is it possible to reconsecrate the elements?  Did the first one not take?  Did God's Word not do what it promised?  Was there an expiration date on the Verba?  Such talk is absolute foolishness. 

Yes, such talk is foolishness indeed.

This is exactly what I meant by focusing too much on what the Sacrament is rather than what it does.

This is exactly why Luther says that we should consume all of the elements DURING THE SERVICE to avoid such questions.

We do not know how long the Real Presence may or may last after the time of its given purpose.

When we take a tie that has had spilled consecrated wine on it to the cleaners, are we disrespecting Jesus?  Should we give it to the altar guild to care for?  Does Lee Maxwell cover that?

 (I am sorry, Pr. Weedon.  I hoipe this is mockery.  I really don't know. This is the stupid place such questions lead.  And it seems that Father Peters is engaging in a bit of mockery himself here.)

Father Peters, this view leads to pre-consecration when the pastor is on vacation.  Are you in favor of that,. or should we act so that nothing remains to cause doubt in the communicant's mind that this is a real Sacrament such as whether the bread and wine have been consecrated before them?

And I may have missed something on Baptism?  Are there Words of Institution to consecrate the water or something?  Are we assured of the presence of the Holy Spirit in, with, and under the water when we place the Triune Name on the baptized?  Or does God's Word work with any water to do what it says and the institution is to affect what happens to the one being baptized and not to affect water?

Mike

Father Peters,

I repent of the abive tart reply and plead your forgiveness.

I appreciate Pr. Weedon's calm reponse in accordance with Luther that the homebound should hear the WOI.

Mike

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Re: Concluding Thoughts on Houston
« Reply #66 on: July 22, 2010, 10:46:58 AM »
It was not my intent to be tart or to mock but to point to the absurdity of the phrase "reconsecrate."  I think that we would be better served by consuming, whether during or immediately following the service or by distribution to the sick or others needing it (for example, because I am near a huge army post with so many deployments, I regularly hear confession and commune military members from the reserved just before they deploy to the Middle East).  I never commune from the reserved without using the Verba as the distribution formula -- not to re-consecrate but so that they hear the Word while receiving it, and then can add from faith the "for me" that claims the fullness of the gifts and blessing of this communion.

I do not believe that prior consecration for later distribution is salutary. If a Pastor is unavailable, then the people will have to commune with Christ in thine heart and hear the Word of God in the lessons and sing their praise to Him in response.  It could be done, but prior consecration for later distribution should not be done.

Is there a time limit on the Sacramental Word?  Is there a window in which Christ is present in His Word and attached to the element to do what He has promised and might that window shut and He be absent?  Water is the physical element of baptism, the vehicle of God's grace which He has chosen to use.  While we might make distinction, I believe that reverent disposal of the baptismal water is consistent with the the high regard Lutherans hold for baptism itself. 
Fr Larry Peters
Grace LCMS, Clarksville, TN
http://www.pastoralmeanderings.blogspot.com/

Mike Gehlhausen

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Re: Concluding Thoughts on Houston
« Reply #67 on: July 22, 2010, 10:52:09 AM »
It was not my intent to be tart or to mock but to point to the absurdity of the phrase "reconsecrate."  I think that we would be better served by consuming, whether during or immediately following the service or by distribution to the sick or others needing it (for example, because I am near a huge army post with so many deployments, I regularly hear confession and commune military members from the reserved just before they deploy to the Middle East).  I never commune from the reserved without using the Verba as the distribution formula -- not to re-consecrate but so that they hear the Word while receiving it, and then can add from faith the "for me" that claims the fullness of the gifts and blessing of this communion.

I do not believe that prior consecration for later distribution is salutary. If a Pastor is unavailable, then the people will have to commune with Christ in thine heart and hear the Word of God in the lessons and sing their praise to Him in response.  It could be done, but prior consecration for later distribution should not be done.

Is there a time limit on the Sacramental Word?  Is there a window in which Christ is present in His Word and attached to the element to do what He has promised and might that window shut and He be absent?  Water is the physical element of baptism, the vehicle of God's grace which He has chosen to use.  While we might make distinction, I believe that reverent disposal of the baptismal water is consistent with the the high regard Lutherans hold for baptism itself. 

I understand this reply and again repent of sinning against you in my poor construction in reacting to your earlier post.

Do I have your forgiveness?

Mike

Jeremy Loesch

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Re: Concluding Thoughts on Houston
« Reply #68 on: July 22, 2010, 11:32:58 AM »
I'm not sure if these exact words are in the confessions or not but I've heard before, notably from Dr. Nagel in Christology and also from profs at RF- There is no such thing as a Spiritless Word nor is there a Wordless Spirit.

The WOI are great and necessary.

Jeremy
A Lutheran pastor growing into all sorts of things.

FrPeters

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Re: Concluding Thoughts on Houston
« Reply #69 on: July 22, 2010, 11:53:31 AM »
Of course, Mike.  In Jesus' name.  I absolve you.
Fr Larry Peters
Grace LCMS, Clarksville, TN
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Mike Gehlhausen

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Re: Concluding Thoughts on Houston
« Reply #70 on: July 22, 2010, 12:04:45 PM »
Of course, Mike.  In Jesus' name.  I absolve you.

Thank you!

Mike Gehlhausen

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Re: Concluding Thoughts on Houston
« Reply #71 on: July 22, 2010, 01:07:33 PM »
From the ACELC admonition document ( http://acelc.net/userFiles/2001/ltr__admonition_04.pdf  ) :

Quote
Holy Scripture and the Lutheran Confessions insist in Article XIV that the administration of the Sacraments be
retained only by those properly called to administer them. The only means for “licensing” a man to serve as
minister of Word and Sacrament is the divine call to the Office of the Holy Ministry and nothing else. Today many
vicarage supervising pastors of the Synod illicitly insist that their vicars consecrate and administer the Lord’s
Supper to home bound members of their parishes and even in Divine Services. The consciences of many vicars
are thereby burdened by this demand. We reject this error.

Leaving aside concerns about how the ACELC is acting, are they right here?  What is wrong about what they say?  How should administration of the Lord's Supper to home-bound members be handled?

Do you think they would accept the distinction that a non-pastor could give consecreated elements reserved from the DS to a home-bound member?

Mike

Steve Ames

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Re: Concluding Thoughts on Houston
« Reply #72 on: July 31, 2010, 01:06:04 PM »
WELS CICR Representative: Observations on LCMS convention

 Rev. James Pope, professor at Martin Luther College, New Ulm, Minn., has returned home after serving as an observer to the triennial convention of the Lutheran Church–Missouri Synod (LCMS) held in Houston, July 10-17. Pope, a member of the Commission on Inter-Church Relations (CICR), was the official WELS representative.

Pope says this was the most positive of the three consecutive LCMS conventions he has attended. The convention met under the theme "One People—Forgiven," and Pope says there was a heavy emphasis on reconciliation. "It was obvious there was a concerted effort among delegates to speak and be passionate about a position, without tearing others down."

Delegates elected a new president, Rev. Matthew Harrison, who has been serving as executive director of LCMS World Relief and Human Care since 2001. He received 54 percent of the vote to 45 percent for Dr. Gerald Kieschnick, the current president. "Conservatives within the Missouri Synod are welcoming the decision," says Pope.

Delegates also adopted sweeping governance restructuring resolutions—including one that reduced the synod's seven program boards to two elected policy boards and another that gives the president the authority to choose the slate of candidates for first vice president. Those resolutions were advocated by Kieschnick. "The challenge Harrison is facing is implementing a major restructuring of the synod approved by the delegates prior to his election," Pope says.

Pope, who was formally recognized by the convention during his stay, says he was warmly received and that delegates expressed to him their appreciation for his attendance and their respect for WELS in general. "People are pleased WELS has representatives here," he says. While the two synods both hold to the inerrancy of Scripture, salvation by grace alone, and other basic doctrines, WELS broke fellowship with the LCMS in 1961 over fellowship, church and ministry, and other issues.

Pope will be preparing a full confidential report of the convention for the CICR, and a summary will be printed in a future edition of the Wisconsin Lutheran Quarterly, a publication of Wisconsin Lutheran Seminary.
http://www.wels.net/news-events/observations-lcms-convention
John 6
 28Then they asked him, "What must we do to do the works God requires?"
 29Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent."

LutherMan

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Re: Concluding Thoughts on Houston
« Reply #73 on: July 31, 2010, 01:14:02 PM »
http://www.evangelicallutheransynod.org/President/news/elsnews/aug10/view

Quote
LCMS Elects New President
At this year’s triennial convention (July 10-17) of the Missouri Synod, Rev. Matthew Harrison, was elected president. Harrison has served as executive director of LCMS World Relief and Human Care since 2001. He received 54 percent of the vote to 45 percent for the current president, Dr. Gerald Kieschnick. ELS vice president, Rev. Glenn Obenberger, attended the convention as an observer; the WELS observer was Rev. James Pope. The election of Harrison has been welcomed by conservatives inside the LCMS.