Author Topic: Wednesday afternoon: destructive storms  (Read 19825 times)

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Wednesday afternoon: destructive storms
« Reply #120 on: August 24, 2009, 03:51:43 PM »
Rev. Stoffregen,

You ask what I think Paul means when he calls himself an apostle.  Read Galatians: that'll answer your question pretty well, I should think.
Just as I've said it means: someone sent by God with a message from God. I believe that Jesus, with the Great Commission and the sending commission at the end of John, has sent us out into the world with a message from God.
Brian Stoffregen
“In theory, theory and practice are the same. In practice, they are not.” ― Albert Einstein

swbohler

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Re: Wednesday afternoon: destructive storms
« Reply #121 on: August 24, 2009, 05:01:52 PM »
No, Rev. Stoffregen, not just "someone sent by God with a message".  Read it again.  This time without trying to force it to fit into your personally preferred and/or made-up definitions.  Maybe try reading the words of this same Paul in 1 Corinthians 12, where he clearly distinguishes the office of apostle from all sorts of other offices in the Church (offices whose holders would also be sent by God with a message but who are NOT apostles).

ghp

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Re: Wednesday afternoon: destructive storms
« Reply #122 on: August 24, 2009, 09:12:16 PM »
No, Rev. Stoffregen, not just "someone sent by God with a message".  Read it again.  This time without trying to force it to fit into your personally preferred and/or made-up definitions.  Maybe try reading the words of this same Paul in 1 Corinthians 12, where he clearly distinguishes the office of apostle from all sorts of other offices in the Church (offices whose holders would also be sent by God with a message but who are NOT apostles).

Oh, now that's just crazy talk. You know, bound consciences and all...

(there's gotta be some sorta Ex-Lax for when someone gets bound up that bad, y'know...  ;) ;D )

MaddogLutheran

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Re: Wednesday afternoon: destructive storms
« Reply #123 on: August 24, 2009, 09:48:08 PM »
Furthermore, the church has not changed God's law but understood the fulfillment of the law in Christ. Thus, we do indeed keep the Sabbath but we do so in a fulfilled way whenever we receive Christ in Word and Sacrament. The explanation of the third commandment makes this clear.
Thank you for succinctly summarizing what I was fumbling towards in my previous posts on this.
Sterling Spatz
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Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Wednesday afternoon: destructive storms
« Reply #124 on: August 25, 2009, 01:08:27 AM »
No, Rev. Stoffregen, not just "someone sent by God with a message".  Read it again.  This time without trying to force it to fit into your personally preferred and/or made-up definitions.  Maybe try reading the words of this same Paul in 1 Corinthians 12, where he clearly distinguishes the office of apostle from all sorts of other offices in the Church (offices whose holders would also be sent by God with a message but who are NOT apostles).

Below are the definitions for ἀπόστολος from three Greek-English Lexicons. They are not my made up definitions.

from Lowe & Nida
1. one who fulfills the role of being a special messenger (generally restricted to the immediate followers of Jesus Christ, but also extended, as in the case of Paul, to other early Christians active in proclaiming the message of the gospel) – apostle, special messenger
2. (derivative of ἀποστέλλω to send a message) one who is sent with a message – messenger

from Bauer Danker Arndt Gingrich
1. of messengers without extraordinary status delegate, envoy, messenger
2. of messengers with extraordinary status, esp. of God's messenger, envoy

Liddell & Scott
1. a messenger, ambassador
2. an apostle

There are two uses in scriptures as these two definitions indicate: a specific one and a general one. Under the general one, all of us who have been commissioned to go with a message are apostles.
Brian Stoffregen
“In theory, theory and practice are the same. In practice, they are not.” ― Albert Einstein

swbohler

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Re: Wednesday afternoon: destructive storms
« Reply #125 on: August 25, 2009, 07:46:17 AM »
No one is arguing that "apostle" does not mean "one who is sent" and that the word is sometimes used of others besides the Apostles.  But you have claimed that Paul is an apostle "in the same sense" as are you and all Christians.  That is just plain wrong, as Paul's words I cited above show and anyone with readng comprehension can see. 

Bergs

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Re: Wednesday afternoon: destructive storms
« Reply #126 on: November 24, 2009, 02:24:24 PM »
So explain to me why, if God is mad at the ELCA, the tornadoes did most of the damage in residential neighborhoods of Minneapolis? Does the Almighty have bad aim?


Just a follow-up on this story. 

A few weeks ago the cranes and scaffolding moved into place to install a new cross above Central Lutheran. 

Secondly, while driving out and about on Saturday, my route took me down Portland Avenue in south Minneapolis.  I was struck by the lack of large trees.  Over the years I have seen them go one by one with Dutch Elm but the destructive storms on that fateful day this August took out the rest of the canopy.  The other thing observed were all of the construction signs out front of these homes, scores of them.    The housing stock on Portland has deteriorated a bit since its zenith in the 50's and 60's.  Many of the homes began losing a lot of their luster in the 70's and 80's (it was the only neighborhood I could afford when I went to buy my first home in 1983).  Here were these homes that really needed some update and they were getting all kinds of new roofs and new siding, etc. with insurance proceeds (I assume anyway).   So maybe the destructive storm caused some new beginings, some needed rejuvenation. 

The situation is reminiscent about another tornado.  About 1970 a tornado hit the little resort town of Miltona, MN.  One person ended up with a broken leg but there were no other injuries.  The old crummy housing stock of the town was flattened.  Insurance money and disaster recovery aid and disaster loans rushed in.  Several new homes were built, the local businesses flourished.  For the next decade the little town celebrated "Tornado Days" in honor of the event. 

So you all can take this analogy where you want.  Maybe you can spin it into a positive for the ELCA or a positive for a rejuvenation among Lutheranism with the start of a new competing synod.  I just note it here as there was concern for those neighborhoods that got caught up in the sign God sent to the CWA.   

Grace & Peace
Brian J. Bergs
Minneapolis, MN
But let me tell Thee that now, today, people are more persuaded than ever that they have perfect freedom, yet they have brought their freedom to us and laid it humbly at our feet. But that has been our doing.
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Bergs

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Re: Wednesday afternoon: destructive storms
« Reply #127 on: August 20, 2010, 01:39:26 PM »
Central Lutheran rang their bells yesterday to commemorate last year's tornado. 

That was still the most unlikely day to have a tornado.  It was not only me, watch the video and see a trained meteorologist say the same thing.

http://www.startribune.com/weather/blogs/Paul_Douglas_on_Weather.html

Brian J. Bergs
Minneapolis, MN
But let me tell Thee that now, today, people are more persuaded than ever that they have perfect freedom, yet they have brought their freedom to us and laid it humbly at our feet. But that has been our doing.
The Grand Inquisitor

Bergs

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Re: Wednesday afternoon: destructive storms
« Reply #128 on: January 14, 2012, 12:26:29 AM »
So explain to me why, if God is mad at the ELCA, the tornadoes did most of the damage in residential neighborhoods of Minneapolis? Does the Almighty have bad aim?


Just a follow-up on this story. 

A few weeks ago the cranes and scaffolding moved into place to install a new cross above Central Lutheran. 

Secondly, while driving out and about on Saturday, my route took me down Portland Avenue in south Minneapolis.  I was struck by the lack of large trees.  Over the years I have seen them go one by one with Dutch Elm but the destructive storms on that fateful day this August took out the rest of the canopy.  The other thing observed were all of the construction signs out front of these homes, scores of them.    The housing stock on Portland has deteriorated a bit since its zenith in the 50's and 60's.  Many of the homes began losing a lot of their luster in the 70's and 80's (it was the only neighborhood I could afford when I went to buy my first home in 1983).  Here were these homes that really needed some update and they were getting all kinds of new roofs and new siding, etc. with insurance proceeds (I assume anyway).   So maybe the destructive storm caused some new beginings, some needed rejuvenation. 

The situation is reminiscent about another tornado.  About 1970 a tornado hit the little resort town of Miltona, MN.  One person ended up with a broken leg but there were no other injuries.  The old crummy housing stock of the town was flattened.  Insurance money and disaster recovery aid and disaster loans rushed in.  Several new homes were built, the local businesses flourished.  For the next decade the little town celebrated "Tornado Days" in honor of the event. 

So you all can take this analogy where you want.  Maybe you can spin it into a positive for the ELCA or a positive for a rejuvenation among Lutheranism with the start of a new competing synod.  I just note it here as there was concern for those neighborhoods that got caught up in the sign God sent to the CWA.   

Grace & Peace
Brian J. Bergs
Minneapolis, MN

One more follow-up regarding the August 2009 Minneapolis tornado and Rev. Austin's concern about God's aim hitting a residential area of Minneapolis.  As stated earlier no one was hurt and the resulting consequences were quite beneficial surrounding this particular tornado, a very freak tornado.

This evening I had the opportunity to attend a meet and greet with other members of the little but fast growing community congregation we have attended for the past year or so.  Many of the members live in the area directly hit by the tornado of August 2009.  The house I was at was at the center of the damaged area (42nd and Portland).  There were several couples and singles from the congregation in attendance this evening all introducing themselves in more detailed fashion.

I asked the homeowner if they were living in the house 2 years ago. They were.  The wife and 3 small children were home the day of the tornado with the little ones taking a nap.  When the young mother realized that the weather had suddenly turned bad, the sirens were blaring she grabbed her children and headed for the basement.  She saw the neighbor's tree blown down so far the top was bent over touching the ground.  By the time she got to the basement, it was all over.  Their house was relatively unscathed.  She called her husband who was at work and like most of us, rather disbelieving that there was a tornado.  The conditions were just not tornado-like. 

As we chatted this evening, I said that their neighbors must have had their home budgets ruined.  Both owners smiled and said actually, the neighborhood was greatly improved with all of the renovation.  It really "spruced" up the neighborhood.  They were sad to see the big old trees go but they said insurance and disaster funds poured into the neighborhood and it looks pretty good these days.  This is the same story I got from another church member who lives at 39th and Portland.

Brian J. Bergs
Minneapolis, MN
But let me tell Thee that now, today, people are more persuaded than ever that they have perfect freedom, yet they have brought their freedom to us and laid it humbly at our feet. But that has been our doing.
The Grand Inquisitor

Charles_Austin

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Re: Wednesday afternoon: destructive storms
« Reply #129 on: January 14, 2012, 04:42:56 AM »
So, I guess, Mr. Bergs, that tornado was not intended to be a slam at the ELCA Assembly, for it did not damage or affect the Assembly or its participants in any way, but was a way of blessing the people in that neighborhood. God does indeed work in mysterious ways.  ;D

That damaged cross? Maybe God had some message for that congregation or its pastor or council that we don't know about.  ;D
« Last Edit: January 14, 2012, 04:45:15 AM by Charles_Austin »

edoughty

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Re: Wednesday afternoon: destructive storms
« Reply #130 on: January 14, 2012, 07:14:12 AM »
Charles, it was probably, "Your old cross needs restoring anyway.  Here, I'll help--"   :)

Harvey_Mozolak

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Re: Wednesday afternoon: destructive storms
« Reply #131 on: January 14, 2012, 07:56:53 AM »
The symbol or sign is never the thing itself.   It is how we use the thingitself.  Signs and symbols are handles we place on, in this case, the holy in judgment or in grace, (some see it one way, others even the opposite) so that we can handle it.  We don’t need symbols on the easily grab-able.   Something big happened and we want to swing incense in front of it or put a room deodorant sticky on it.    Harvey Mozolak
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Bergs

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Re: Wednesday afternoon: destructive storms
« Reply #132 on: January 14, 2012, 08:50:23 AM »
So, I guess, Mr. Bergs, that tornado was not intended to be a slam at the ELCA Assembly, for it did not damage or affect the Assembly or its participants in any way, but was a way of blessing the people in that neighborhood. God does indeed work in mysterious ways.  ;D

That damaged cross? Maybe God had some message for that congregation or its pastor or council that we don't know about.  ;D

Rev. Austin:  At the time, my soul was stirred up by the broken cross and I was convinced that it was a sign to the Assembly.   As I do not aspire to be a prophet I have no definitive interpretation of the sign. I disagree that this was "just a tornado." It hit one specific ELCA congregational building (one particular symbol) while leaving another ELCA congreation alone just 2 blocks away.  As time matures me, I am more convinced than ever, this was a sign. 

Many have counseled me to be careful about these supernatural things.  I agree.  Signs move different souls different ways.  That individual interpretation does not diminish them as signs.     

As you pointed out, what about the damages caused to the innocent.   Two years ago my personal observations were that perhaps those damages to the innocent were not so damaging.  Last night I gathered more anecdotes from homeowners that my observations were valid.

Brian J. Bergs
Minneapolis, MN
But let me tell Thee that now, today, people are more persuaded than ever that they have perfect freedom, yet they have brought their freedom to us and laid it humbly at our feet. But that has been our doing.
The Grand Inquisitor

Charles_Austin

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Re: Wednesday afternoon: destructive storms
« Reply #133 on: January 14, 2012, 10:20:42 AM »
So the "sign" was neutral. It had no specific effect on the ELCA, and a beneficial effect on the nearby neighborhood. So maybe it was just something that happened.
Sometimes an event is just an event. Or luck. Or nature. Or some small hiccup in the cosmos. One such hiccup turns into a Big Bang and we get billions of stars and planets. Another such hiccup bends a piece of metal and enables a neighborhood to improve.

Bergs

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Re: Wednesday afternoon: destructive storms
« Reply #134 on: January 14, 2012, 05:15:46 PM »
So the "sign" was neutral. It had no specific effect on the ELCA, and a beneficial effect on the nearby neighborhood. So maybe it was just something that happened.
Sometimes an event is just an event. Or luck. Or nature. Or some small hiccup in the cosmos. One such hiccup turns into a Big Bang and we get billions of stars and planets. Another such hiccup bends a piece of metal and enables a neighborhood to improve.

No the sign was not neutral in my interpretation.  It had a profound effect on me and on others I saw staring at it that evening.  Others chose to disregard it and even denigrate it.  Happily it caused no death or irreparable damage which was a concern of your originally.

Brian J. Bergs
Minneapolis, MN 
But let me tell Thee that now, today, people are more persuaded than ever that they have perfect freedom, yet they have brought their freedom to us and laid it humbly at our feet. But that has been our doing.
The Grand Inquisitor